The Curious Case Of The Pearl Jam Posters

pdalowsky

JT167846 said:

Do you guys think TSurt was on a tight deadline so had to make a call? Or do you think they jumped the gun in canning it? I'm not sure how far they'd need a final submission from an article in advance of a gig. Brad Klausen definitely seems the best qualified to answer this stuff. Seems to me like both sides can be right and also ignorant of the other's perspective. Might be a great deal in comparison to the way she's used to doing so, but having such a different business model has obviously taken her aback and communication/breakdowns could have been better. It's a shame she won't get the chance to do it. But yeah again I'm just trying to be philosophical and think they're reaching out to NZ artists for NZ concerts. Roll on November (allegedly).

Im not sure a poster in almost a years time is a tight deadline but then I have no idea how far in advance they usually work. 

Its pretty smart on the bands end to have someone create products for them that they can sell like hot cakes at their show and earn a shit ton of money from without actually paying them. Its a very shrewd model imo, and a position they have earned and carved out over the years - there are tons of bands now making posters that would love to have the demand that our band has. That goes for all merch too - I remember the last time I went to see Springsteen - there was a merch stand with not one single person waiting or being served. The contrast from that to a PJ show is incredible, fair play to PJ for making that market for themselves

pdalowsky

Niko80 said:

pdalowsky said:

Niko80 said:

It's a smart business approach by the band. Asking the artist to sell AP´s, the artist will put more work into the piece to make sure it sells. 

It will generate better art for the band. Just speculating here.. 

Yo dude, well its been quite a long time since we got a really good poster....soooooo................LOL

But regardless those AP's have all sold so the artists have been compensated pretty well. But then I wonder how long a piece like a Pitts 13 takes to create? I mean in hours. I wonder exactly how profitable it can be which will depend on how time intensive the process is. 

Been too long man! Bought a membership again with the goal of scoring some tickets for the upcoming tour. Hopefully I get to see you along the way! 

Yeah, the posters have been more miss than hit lately. Hopefully we get some good ones in 2024.

Now that sounds like a very very solid plan. Lets get together on the road......

Manu117

Haven't seen this mentioned but I think it bears mentioning: almost every 2022/2023 Pearl Jam poster is still available directly from pearl jam's website (for members). 

I would assume that doesn't help the value of AP's. 

verceman

pjl44 said:

A more apt analogy:

Pearl Jam is coming through and playing a 5k capacity theater. Their manager calls and says "we want your band to open!" We're not paying a fee but we'll give you 50 tickets to sell. We recommend $200 per.

Now, you personally may not feel like selling any tickets and that's fine. But those should be in high demand and many would see $10,000 and the chance to open for Pearl Jam. Not for everyone maybe but seems pretty good.

This is an excellent analogy and IMO illustrates why this isn't great for the artist. If I am that band I am stoked to open for Pearl Jam but also a little irked that I need to go do additional work besides playing the show. Sure, I might have a way of selling tickets for my puny shows, like Eventbrite or something, and I have a mailing list for my band. But maybe I am an avant garde band and my puny fan base doesn't even really typically like Pearl Jam, so now I have to figure out how to advertise to Pearl Jam fans to buy these tickets. Maybe it's not that hard but Pearl Jam has a massive infrastructure already set up to sell their tickets so why put the work on me? Add in the fact that even when I sell the tickets I have to distribute them too...

So it's still a great opportunity for the artist, and it's not all bad or all good, and it's not a bait and switch, but on Pearl Jam's part it's definitely a little tacky. 

SHZA

pdalowsky said:

JT167846 said:

Do you guys think TSurt was on a tight deadline so had to make a call? Or do you think they jumped the gun in canning it? I'm not sure how far they'd need a final submission from an article in advance of a gig. Brad Klausen definitely seems the best qualified to answer this stuff. Seems to me like both sides can be right and also ignorant of the other's perspective. Might be a great deal in comparison to the way she's used to doing so, but having such a different business model has obviously taken her aback and communication/breakdowns could have been better. It's a shame she won't get the chance to do it. But yeah again I'm just trying to be philosophical and think they're reaching out to NZ artists for NZ concerts. Roll on November (allegedly).

Im not sure a poster in almost a years time is a tight deadline but then I have no idea how far in advance they usually work. 

Its pretty smart on the bands end to have someone create products for them that they can sell like hot cakes at their show and earn a shit ton of money from without actually paying them. Its a very shrewd model imo, and a position they have earned and carved out over the years - there are tons of bands now making posters that would love to have the demand that our band has. That goes for all merch too - I remember the last time I went to see Springsteen - there was a merch stand with not one single person waiting or being served. The contrast from that to a PJ show is incredible, fair play to PJ for making that market for themselves

I did see one of the artists mention in a Facebook discussion on this article that there's a legitimate need to have a tight deadline for it to be squared away. 

The fact that the PJ prints are almost assured to sell like hot cakes explains why the offer to the artist is "take it or leave it" and why the misses far outnumber the hits. What's TSURTs motivation to hire the best artist (who will want to be paid accordingly) when the merch line sales will be the same even if the artist is unknown and the poster is atrocious? If the fans stopped buying the duds, we might see more hits 

igotid88

What surprises me or actually doesn't surprise me is that some of you won't even give Pearl Jam the benefit of the doubt? It's like they're evil and screwing over people. We've known these guys for over 30 years to be upstanding people. Are they perfect. No. But to just to side against them without knowing all the factors. 

PB11041

This whole thing is likely simpler solved had TSurt just given the brand new artist that he has never worked with before and she likewise a few references to explain how the process worked and why it can work the way that bands do this.

It is irrelevant what the whole industry does or does not do, he could have just not assumed that this person he reached out to should have known all about how pearl jam fans are psychotic about posters.

 

JimmyV

This thread has reminded me of EMEK looking for tickets back in 2013. I had thought that was the kind of thing that would be negotiated into an artist's contract, but as we now know that is not the case. 

https://community.pearljam.com/discussion/225311/portland-poster-by-emek-he-needs-2-tickets

SHZA

JimmyV said:

This thread has reminded me of EMEK looking for tickets back in 2013. I had thought that was the kind of thing that would be negotiated into an artist's contract, but as we now know that is not the case. 

https://community.pearljam.com/discussion/225311/portland-poster-by-emek-he-needs-2-tickets

That's wild. Whoever hooked him up in exchange for a signed and doodled doomsday clock got a nice trade! 

Merkin Baller

PB11041 said:

This whole thing is likely simpler solved had TSurt just given the brand new artist that he has never worked with before and she likewise a few references to explain how the process worked and why it can work the way that bands do this.

It is irrelevant what the whole industry does or does not do, he could have just not assumed that this person he reached out to should have known all about how pearl jam fans are psychotic about posters.

 

Hard disagree..., I would argue it's not up to Tsurt to educate artists on how compensation in their chosen field works. 

With that being said, she got an education regardless. 

100 Pacer

SHZA said:

Merkin Baller said:

lexicondevil said:

Merkin Baller said:

lexicondevil said:

Merkin Baller said:

verceman said:

I just don't know why the onus on selling the posters has to be put on the artist, who may not even have a webstore. Couldn't Pearl Jam pay a nominal amount for the commissioned artwork, (like $500?), and then **also** sell those 100 "exclusive" versions of the poster for like $100 each (or whatever the artist wants them to charge) at the show or at pearljam.com where 100 percent of the money goes to the artist? This way the artists is guaranteed some money, and if its a desirable design they easily also get $10k. Seems like win win for all.  

In this case the artist does have a webstore, and regardless, why should the band change the business model now when it's clearly one that has been working for them and plenty of other artists over the years? Maybe not 100% of artists are happy with it, but most seem to appreciate the opportunity (or at least the complaints have been few & far between from what I've seen).

As someone else mentioned, it's not as if there was a bait & switch at play. No one was tricked or deceived. 

Are you a lawyer for Ticketmaster? Just because artists suck it up and go along with a policy does not mean that it is actually fair. This seems like it could be easily remedied without much loss to a big band like Pearl Jam. If we were talking about some punk band rehearsing in a garage then I could understand this policy.

Weird take. 

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume the artists who keep coming back to work for Pearl Jam year in and year out have a better understanding of the policy than you do, and must be pretty happy with the arrangement if they keep coming back, but what do I know?  

I don't think you need to be the artist or some genius to figure out the policy. It's pretty clear: the artist designs poster and only gets paid in posters of their own work that they must sell and ship on their own time. As an artist, my opinion is that is really uncool. These poster artists are in a tricky and vulnerable position, and the people hiring them know it. My guess is that if you talked to many of these artists off record, they would tell you the same. It was brave of this artist to tell her story, but the fact is that now she will probably face retribution which sucks. Artists should be paid.

I agree, artists should be paid; I also maintain that clearly this model works for the people who keep taking on the work. Why on earth would artists like Ames Bros & Brad Klausen & Emek & Steve Thomas et al keep 'sucking it up' if it didn't? 

Johnson had her reservations, as would I - the prospect of having to export all those posters from NZ isn't appealing, but that's the gig. Take it or don't. She hesitated and Tsurt moved on. That's life.  

Ames keeps coming back because they have a sweetheart deal and get like 300 APs, 150 of which are variants that they sell for 2-3 times the cost of a standard AP. Smacks of nepotism. It says a lot that most of the artists accepting the standard 100 AP deal are lesser known or wouldn't be considered top tier gig print artists. When's the last time Emek or Sperry did a PJ print? Look at all the prints that Emek did in 2023. Why no PJ? We may never see it again. 

I’d expect to see an EMEK for Portland.

Abe Froman

I can totally see why TSURT pulled the plug quickly. She seems like a pain in the ass to work with. Also, I’m pretty certain based on their track record as decent humans that the guys in Pearl Jam are absolutely NOT trying to screw artists over. 

Evel K

JT167846 said:

Do you guys think TSurt was on a tight deadline so had to make a call? Or do you think they jumped the gun in canning it? I'm not sure how far they'd need a final submission from an article in advance of a gig. Brad Klausen definitely seems the best qualified to answer this stuff. Seems to me like both sides can be right and also ignorant of the other's perspective. Might be a great deal in comparison to the way she's used to doing so, but having such a different business model has obviously taken her aback and communication/breakdowns could have been better. It's a shame she won't get the chance to do it. But yeah again I'm just trying to be philosophical and think they're reaching out to NZ artists for NZ concerts. Roll on November (allegedly).

Was the original offer to do a New Zealand show? I read that this artist actually moved to New York. If this offer was for Madison Square Garden,  does that change everything?

Merkin Baller

igotid88 said:

What surprises me or actually doesn't surprise me is that some of you won't even give Pearl Jam the benefit of the doubt? It's like they're evil and screwing over people. We've known these guys for over 30 years to be upstanding people. Are they perfect. No. But to just to side against them without knowing all the factors. 

Agreed, and it happens a lot on these boards which I find impossibly weird for the Pearl Jam fan club. 

There's a whole lot of middle ground between thinking this band can do no wrong and assuming the worst of them at every turn, but middle ground doesn't seem to be entertained that much any more. 

PB11041

Merkin Baller said:

PB11041 said:

This whole thing is likely simpler solved had TSurt just given the brand new artist that he has never worked with before and she likewise a few references to explain how the process worked and why it can work the way that bands do this.

It is irrelevant what the whole industry does or does not do, he could have just not assumed that this person he reached out to should have known all about how pearl jam fans are psychotic about posters.

 

Hard disagree..., I would argue it's not up to Tsurt to educate artists on how compensation in their chosen field works. 

With that being said, she got an education regardless. 

Her chosen field is NOT making posters for rock bands.  He reached out to her, not the other way around.

This may be a shock to some pearl jam fans, but there are over 8 billion people on earth, I would venture to guess that roughly 7,999,990,000 give or take a few thousand don't have their lives revolve around pearl jam tour merchandise.  

pjl44

verceman said:

pjl44 said:

A more apt analogy:

Pearl Jam is coming through and playing a 5k capacity theater. Their manager calls and says "we want your band to open!" We're not paying a fee but we'll give you 50 tickets to sell. We recommend $200 per.

Now, you personally may not feel like selling any tickets and that's fine. But those should be in high demand and many would see $10,000 and the chance to open for Pearl Jam. Not for everyone maybe but seems pretty good.

This is an excellent analogy and IMO illustrates why this isn't great for the artist. If I am that band I am stoked to open for Pearl Jam but also a little irked that I need to go do additional work besides playing the show. Sure, I might have a way of selling tickets for my puny shows, like Eventbrite or something, and I have a mailing list for my band. But maybe I am an avant garde band and my puny fan base doesn't even really typically like Pearl Jam, so now I have to figure out how to advertise to Pearl Jam fans to buy these tickets. Maybe it's not that hard but Pearl Jam has a massive infrastructure already set up to sell their tickets so why put the work on me? Add in the fact that even when I sell the tickets I have to distribute them too...

So it's still a great opportunity for the artist, and it's not all bad or all good, and it's not a bait and switch, but on Pearl Jam's part it's definitely a little tacky. 

Agree 100% although it's funny we kinda land on different verdicts. But I really was trying to capture the funky components - on one hand you're being forced to schlep and that's kinda weird but on the other is an almost certainly great payout and really nice exposure.

Again, I'm assuming 7-10k for this assignment is good but would be interested to hear otherwise.

Merkin Baller

PB11041 said:

Merkin Baller said:

PB11041 said:

This whole thing is likely simpler solved had TSurt just given the brand new artist that he has never worked with before and she likewise a few references to explain how the process worked and why it can work the way that bands do this.

It is irrelevant what the whole industry does or does not do, he could have just not assumed that this person he reached out to should have known all about how pearl jam fans are psychotic about posters.

 

Hard disagree..., I would argue it's not up to Tsurt to educate artists on how compensation in their chosen field works. 

With that being said, she got an education regardless. 

Her chosen field is NOT making posters for rock bands.  He reached out to her, not the other way around.

This may be a shock to some pearl jam fans, but there are over 8 billion people on earth, I would venture to guess that roughly 7,999,990,000 give or take a few thousand don't have their lives revolve around pearl jam tour merchandise.  

Does anyone choose the field of making posters for rock bands, or do they fall into it? She decided to create art and sell it & they reached out to her about contracting her as an artist. I think you're splitting hairs with that. 

It's not a shock at all that someone might not be aware of how this works, I don't fault her for that, but OTOH I don't see why Tsurt should have to spend time educating anyone on the process either. There's a lot of middle ground here. 

PB11041

Merkin Baller said:

PB11041 said:

Merkin Baller said:

PB11041 said:

This whole thing is likely simpler solved had TSurt just given the brand new artist that he has never worked with before and she likewise a few references to explain how the process worked and why it can work the way that bands do this.

It is irrelevant what the whole industry does or does not do, he could have just not assumed that this person he reached out to should have known all about how pearl jam fans are psychotic about posters.

 

Hard disagree..., I would argue it's not up to Tsurt to educate artists on how compensation in their chosen field works. 

With that being said, she got an education regardless. 

Her chosen field is NOT making posters for rock bands.  He reached out to her, not the other way around.

This may be a shock to some pearl jam fans, but there are over 8 billion people on earth, I would venture to guess that roughly 7,999,990,000 give or take a few thousand don't have their lives revolve around pearl jam tour merchandise.  

Does anyone choose the field of making posters for rock bands, or do they fall into it? She decided to create art and sell it & they reached out to her about contracting her as an artist. I think you're splitting hairs with that. 

It's not a shock at all that someone might not be aware of how this works, I don't fault her for that, but OTOH I don't see why Tsurt should have to spend time educating anyone on the process either. There's a lot of middle ground here. 

You literally wrote it is not up to him to educate artists on how the compensation in their chosen field works.  Most artists do NOT work to hope to get paid off a side deal of what a rock band sells of their merchandise.   So yeah, he should educate her better about the process instead of being dismissive.   If she reached out to him saying I want in on this and then was like wait wait, that is on her.  But barring a really bad retelling of this encounter that is not remotely what happened.

So why does Tsurt need to educate someone he reached out to that was confused about the process?  Because it is literally what he does for a living is sell other peoples work for them.   So it is pretty reasonable to expect that artists who do not do gig posters have no idea what is going on.

Merkin Baller

PB11041 said:

Merkin Baller said:

PB11041 said:

Merkin Baller said:

PB11041 said:

This whole thing is likely simpler solved had TSurt just given the brand new artist that he has never worked with before and she likewise a few references to explain how the process worked and why it can work the way that bands do this.

It is irrelevant what the whole industry does or does not do, he could have just not assumed that this person he reached out to should have known all about how pearl jam fans are psychotic about posters.

 

Hard disagree..., I would argue it's not up to Tsurt to educate artists on how compensation in their chosen field works. 

With that being said, she got an education regardless. 

Her chosen field is NOT making posters for rock bands.  He reached out to her, not the other way around.

This may be a shock to some pearl jam fans, but there are over 8 billion people on earth, I would venture to guess that roughly 7,999,990,000 give or take a few thousand don't have their lives revolve around pearl jam tour merchandise.  

Does anyone choose the field of making posters for rock bands, or do they fall into it? She decided to create art and sell it & they reached out to her about contracting her as an artist. I think you're splitting hairs with that. 

It's not a shock at all that someone might not be aware of how this works, I don't fault her for that, but OTOH I don't see why Tsurt should have to spend time educating anyone on the process either. There's a lot of middle ground here. 

You literally wrote it is not up to him to educate artists on how the compensation in their chosen field works.  Most artists do NOT work to hope to get paid off a side deal of what a rock band sells of their merchandise.   So yeah, he should educate her better about the process instead of being dismissive.   If she reached out to him saying I want in on this and then was like wait wait, that is on her.  But barring a really bad retelling of this encounter that is not remotely what happened.

So why does Tsurt need to educate someone he reached out to that was confused about the process?  Because it is literally what he does for a living is sell other peoples work for them.   So it is pretty reasonable to expect that artists who do not do gig posters have no idea what is going on.

In fairness, from the limited emails we saw, he did explain how it works. The artists is compensated w/ 100 APs. Johnson didn't seem too keen on the idea and it fell apart from there. 

"No harm no foal", as they say. 

JimmyV

Here you can see exact moment Gilbert Stuart quit the project after learning George Washington planned to pay him in prints and not cash money.