How can Dave A be their “best” drummer if he only participated in only 3 out of 32 years of the bands career? I mean we are talking about ten percent of their history is with Dave.
How can Sean Connery be the "best" Bond if he only participated in only 9 out of 59 years of the series career? I mean, we are talking about fifteen percent of the history is with Sean.
Playing 7 out of 26* bond films equals 26%. Plus we all know George Lanzby is the best bond.
Side note: apples to oranges comparison.
Playing drums for Pearl Jam on five out five years of the band being the "top of mind" rockband in the world equals 100%. Plus we all know Neil Young is the best Pearl Jam guitarist. Side note: Rock drummer to M16-agent comparison
Dave's first show was on August 23, 1991 and his last show was on April 17, 1994; so 2 years and 8 months. Definitely not a lot of time with the band.
haha. I realised after the fact that I had just listed years PJ was the talk of the town without even counting in Dave in the equation. But was to busy with other things to edit my post.
All good but because of your mistake you now owe me a beer
Maybe we can get an Agnes part 2 thread out of this!
How can Dave A be their “best” drummer if he only participated in only 3 out of 32 years of the bands career? I mean we are talking about ten percent of their history is with Dave.
How can Sean Connery be the "best" Bond if he only participated in only 9 out of 59 years of the series career? I mean, we are talking about fifteen percent of the history is with Sean.
Playing 7 out of 26* bond films equals 26%. Plus we all know George Lanzby is the best bond.
Side note: apples to oranges comparison.
Playing drums for Pearl Jam on five out five years of the band being the "top of mind" rockband in the world equals 100%. Plus we all know Neil Young is the best Pearl Jam guitarist. Side note: Rock drummer to M16-agent comparison
Dave's first show was on August 23, 1991 and his last show was on April 17, 1994; so 2 years and 8 months. Definitely not a lot of time with the band.
haha. I realised after the fact that I had just listed years PJ was the talk of the town without even counting in Dave in the equation. But was to busy with other things to edit my post.
All good but because of your mistake you now owe me a beer
Maybe we can get Agnes part 2 thread out of this!
I think the Agnes thread lasted longer than Dave s drumming in the band lol.
How can Dave A be their “best” drummer if he only participated in only 3 out of 32 years of the bands career? I mean we are talking about ten percent of their history is with Dave.
How can Sean Connery be the "best" Bond if he only participated in only 9 out of 59 years of the series career? I mean, we are talking about fifteen percent of the history is with Sean.
Playing 7 out of 26* bond films equals 26%. Plus we all know George Lanzby is the best bond.
Side note: apples to oranges comparison.
Playing drums for Pearl Jam on five out five years of the band being the "top of mind" rockband in the world equals 100%. Plus we all know Neil Young is the best Pearl Jam guitarist. Side note: Rock drummer to M16-agent comparison
Dave's first show was on August 23, 1991 and his last show was on April 17, 1994; so 2 years and 8 months. Definitely not a lot of time with the band.
haha. I realised after the fact that I had just listed years PJ was the talk of the town without even counting in Dave in the equation. But was to busy with other things to edit my post.
All good but because of your mistake you now owe me a beer
Maybe we can get an Agnes part 2 thread out of this!
How can Dave A be their “best” drummer if he only participated in only 3 out of 32 years of the bands career? I mean we are talking about ten percent of their history is with Dave.
How can Sean Connery be the "best" Bond if he only participated in only 9 out of 59 years of the series career? I mean, we are talking about fifteen percent of the history is with Sean.
Playing 7 out of 26* bond films equals 26%. Plus we all know George Lanzby is the best bond.
Side note: apples to oranges comparison.
Playing drums for Pearl Jam on five out five years of the band being the "top of mind" rockband in the world equals 100%. Plus we all know Neil Young is the best Pearl Jam guitarist. Side note: Rock drummer to M16-agent comparison
Dave's first show was on August 23, 1991 and his last show was on April 17, 1994; so 2 years and 8 months. Definitely not a lot of time with the band.
haha. I realised after the fact that I had just listed years PJ was the talk of the town without even counting in Dave in the equation. But was to busy with other things to edit my post.
All good but because of your mistake you now owe me a beer
Maybe we can get an Agnes part 2 thread out of this!
When I play a boot from 92-94 I never think of the drums. Ed s voice and the guitars are what reminds me of that time period. I feel anybody could have drummed during that era and the results would have been the same.
I wouldn't say cling, but I do feel bad for him from time to time.
He was the active drummer in the band when most of us got to PJ and drummed on some of their best and most influential albums. Then, while having one of the best drumming gigs (drumming for one of the biggest rock bands during their hey dey) got canned.
Then over the years his contributions get swept under the rug, the RRHOF snubbed him. Even though they've inducted band members form other bands under similar situations.
The challenge is PJ has had amazing drummers, so he's among a league of legendary drummers the band has had. Every time PJ swapped drummers, their sound went in a different direction.
That's my thoughts. Not that you can't let the guy go, but moreso his contributions to the legacy of the band get swept under rug, because he got fired.
I think his contribution is blown out of proportion based on him being in the right place at the right time.
It's safe to say VS and Vitalogy get made with or without him. Would they have sounded differently? Of course, but they would have charged ahead with any drummer they hired after the success of Ten. If Dave A was the single biggest creative force behind those 2 albums, that's news to me. Sure, he had some songwriting credits on both albums, but not THAT many.
Any speculation on how VS or Vitalogy would have sounded with another drummer is just that... speculation; but based on how well they've done with every drummer that's come along, it's not a stretch to suggest they would have been just fine with someone else.
you excelated that quickly. How does it go from me saying Dave A. contributed, to you arguing that he's not the biggest creative force in the time spent with the band. All I said was he contributed... lol.
Also your argument is completely valid for all other drummers PJ has had. They only have limited songwriting credits, and the albums probably would of happened with or without them.
it's the nostalgia. people equate dave's time with the band as their favourite time of the band. it's not surprising it keeps coming up.
Or it keeps coming up because people complain it keeps coming up, like this thread!
I'm not complaining but was curious and wanted to ask the faithful as a legitimate discussion. Because I get shit for not liking him. And I don't think his contributions were as impressive as older fans claim. That was more my point. People just love Pearl J-angry so much and like Dave cause he beats the drums real hard. And I think it's a mute discussion and stand by my point of Dave wouldn't have barely survived past Vs. even Viatolgy sounds more like Jack Iron's influence. It's like the same people that think Paul Di'anno should still be in Iron Maiden...still think Dave should be in PJ..
When I play a boot from 92-94 I never think of the drums. Ed s voice and the guitars are what reminds me of that time period. I feel anybody could have drummed during that era and the results would have been the same.
This can't be true.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
I wouldn't say cling, but I do feel bad for him from time to time.
He was the active drummer in the band when most of us got to PJ and drummed on some of their best and most influential albums. Then, while having one of the best drumming gigs (drumming for one of the biggest rock bands during their hey dey) got canned.
Then over the years his contributions get swept under the rug, the RRHOF snubbed him. Even though they've inducted band members form other bands under similar situations.
The challenge is PJ has had amazing drummers, so he's among a league of legendary drummers the band has had. Every time PJ swapped drummers, their sound went in a different direction.
That's my thoughts. Not that you can't let the guy go, but moreso his contributions to the legacy of the band get swept under rug, because he got fired.
I think his contribution is blown out of proportion based on him being in the right place at the right time.
It's safe to say VS and Vitalogy get made with or without him. Would they have sounded differently? Of course, but they would have charged ahead with any drummer they hired after the success of Ten. If Dave A was the single biggest creative force behind those 2 albums, that's news to me. Sure, he had some songwriting credits on both albums, but not THAT many.
Any speculation on how VS or Vitalogy would have sounded with another drummer is just that... speculation; but based on how well they've done with every drummer that's come along, it's not a stretch to suggest they would have been just fine with someone else.
you excelated that quickly. How does it go from me saying Dave A. contributed, to you arguing that he's not the biggest creative force in the time spent with the band. All I said was he contributed... lol.
Also your argument is completely valid for all other drummers PJ has had. They only have limited songwriting credits, and the albums probably would of happened with or without them.
You said his "contributions to the legacy of the band get swept under the rug because he got fired", to which I replied his contributions are blown out of proportion… I’m not sure how that’s escalating... (Dave, is that you?)
That you think my argument applies to every drummer the band has had reinforces my point… the strength of this band has always been the songwriting of the 4 guys who have been there the whole time, not whomever is playing the drums.
(Although there IS a conversation to be had that No Code or anything after that doesn't happen if not for JI... IIRC one of the band members is on record as saying [more or less] that they were on the brink of breaking up at that point & he pulled them back together, but I digress)
I don’t know what people want the band to do for a guy who was with them for < 10% of their existence, hasn’t been a member in almost 30 years and still gripes about it publically decades later. (perhaps that last point might be the reason why he was snubbed from the Unplugged album cover?)
IDK, but I'm over it & have been over it for some time. I understand that Dave A isn't over it... it would be a tough thing to get over, no doubt. How fans aren't over it though is beyond me.
I don’t know what people want the band to do for a guy who was with them for < 10% of their existence, hasn’t been a member in almost 30 years and still gripes about it publically decades later. (perhaps that last point might be the reason why he was snubbed from the Unplugged album cover?)
The Unplugged cover was back in 2011.
What gripes was he spouting then? Was he even active on social media back then? Or did interviews?
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
I don’t know what people want the band to do for a guy who was with them for < 10% of their existence, hasn’t been a member in almost 30 years and still gripes about it publically decades later. (perhaps that last point might be the reason why he was snubbed from the Unplugged album cover?)
The Unplugged cover was back in 2011.
What gripes was he spouting then? Was he even active on social media back then? Or did interviews?
2011? Weird.. according to discogs the official release was in 2019, which matches my recollection.
As far as what Dave was spouting and when I'm sure don't know, I don't keep up with all of it. I only see what's brought to the table here in the forum.
I don’t know what people want the band to do for a guy who was with them for < 10% of their existence, hasn’t been a member in almost 30 years and still gripes about it publically decades later. (perhaps that last point might be the reason why he was snubbed from the Unplugged album cover?)
The Unplugged cover was back in 2011.
What gripes was he spouting then? Was he even active on social media back then? Or did interviews?
2011? Weird.. according to discogs the official release was in 2019, which matches my recollection.
As far as what Dave was spouting and when I'm sure don't know, I don't keep up with all of it. I only see what's brought to the table here in the forum.
The big discussion about Unplugged and Dave was in 2009. My bad on saying 2011.
Him not being shown on the wide shot (on the vinyl), has not -from what I remember - been nearly as big as them not having a portrait of him on the DVD. If you are saying that there was a discussion when the LP was released.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
I don’t know what people want the band to do for a guy who was with them for < 10% of their existence, hasn’t been a member in almost 30 years and still gripes about it publically decades later. (perhaps that last point might be the reason why he was snubbed from the Unplugged album cover?)
The Unplugged cover was back in 2011.
What gripes was he spouting then? Was he even active on social media back then? Or did interviews?
2011? Weird.. according to discogs the official release was in 2019, which matches my recollection.
As far as what Dave was spouting and when I'm sure don't know, I don't keep up with all of it. I only see what's brought to the table here in the forum.
The big discussion about Unplugged and Dave was in 2009. My bad on saying 2011.
That the band released Unplugged on cd in 2009 is news to me.
If they wanted to skip on showing Dave - tell the Art Director to come up with another solution than portraits of the band, instead of demanding not having the drummer from that very show shown but every other member.
Similar shit can be applied to the funko toys. Common sense. Common respect.
Anyone defending that choice is not worth ever having a discussion with, regarding this band or anything else. They are just blindly carrying water.
And I'm not a gigantic fan of one drummer over another. I just call the shots as I see them. Because I am just such a great and open-minded person.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
If they wanted to skip on showing Dave - tell the Art Director to come up with another solution than portraits of the band, instead of demanding not having the drummer from that very show shown but every other member.
Similar shit can be applied to the funko toys. Common sense. Common respect.
Anyone defending that choice is not worth ever having a discussion with, regarding this band or anything else. They are just blindly carrying water.
And I'm not a gigantic fan of one drummer over another. I just call the shots as I see them. Because I am just such a great and open-minded person.
You're not in any way open minded about the things you don't know.
If they wanted to skip on showing Dave - tell the Art Director to come up with another solution than portraits of the band, instead of demanding not having the drummer from that very show shown but every other member.
Similar shit can be applied to the funko toys. Common sense. Common respect.
Anyone defending that choice is not worth ever having a discussion with, regarding this band or anything else. They are just blindly carrying water.
And I'm not a gigantic fan of one drummer over another. I just call the shots as I see them. Because I am just such a great and open-minded person.
You're not in any way open minded about the things you don't know.
What would these things I do not know be, in all of my open-mindeness? List some.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
If they wanted to skip on showing Dave - tell the Art Director to come up with another solution than portraits of the band, instead of demanding not having the drummer from that very show shown but every other member.
Similar shit can be applied to the funko toys. Common sense. Common respect.
Anyone defending that choice is not worth ever having a discussion with, regarding this band or anything else. They are just blindly carrying water.
And I'm not a gigantic fan of one drummer over another. I just call the shots as I see them. Because I am just such a great and open-minded person.
It would be one thing to reissue an album that contained a picture of him on the original to one where he wasn’t shown
when you are releasing an old show many years after he left the band, I don’t see it as a problem to picture the members on the album that are currently in the band
they didn’t photoshop him out of the picture in the cabin when they reissued vs
If they wanted to skip on showing Dave - tell the Art Director to come up with another solution than portraits of the band, instead of demanding not having the drummer from that very show shown but every other member.
Similar shit can be applied to the funko toys. Common sense. Common respect.
Anyone defending that choice is not worth ever having a discussion with, regarding this band or anything else. They are just blindly carrying water.
And I'm not a gigantic fan of one drummer over another. I just call the shots as I see them. Because I am just such a great and open-minded person.
You're not in any way open minded about the things you don't know.
What would these things I do not know be, in all of my open-mindeness? List some.
If you were as open minded as you claim, you would be able to imagine some of them on your own.
If they wanted to skip on showing Dave - tell the Art Director to come up with another solution than portraits of the band, instead of demanding not having the drummer from that very show shown but every other member.
Similar shit can be applied to the funko toys. Common sense. Common respect.
Anyone defending that choice is not worth ever having a discussion with, regarding this band or anything else. They are just blindly carrying water.
And I'm not a gigantic fan of one drummer over another. I just call the shots as I see them. Because I am just such a great and open-minded person.
You're not in any way open minded about the things you don't know.
What would these things I do not know be, in all of my open-mindeness? List some.
If you were as open minded as you claim, you would be able to imagine some of them on your own.
I can imagine things, but I do not see any that in any way would take away from my post.
Someone carrying water blindly, I would imagine would fumble around with the need to construct some though.
if you want to, you can list some and enlighten me. Curious on what they would be.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
If they wanted to skip on showing Dave - tell the Art Director to come up with another solution than portraits of the band, instead of demanding not having the drummer from that very show shown but every other member.
Similar shit can be applied to the funko toys. Common sense. Common respect.
Anyone defending that choice is not worth ever having a discussion with, regarding this band or anything else. They are just blindly carrying water.
And I'm not a gigantic fan of one drummer over another. I just call the shots as I see them. Because I am just such a great and open-minded person.
You're not in any way open minded about the things you don't know.
What would these things I do not know be, in all of my open-mindeness? List some.
If you were as open minded as you claim, you would be able to imagine some of them on your own.
I can imagine things, but I do not see any that in any way would take away from my post.
Someone carrying water blindly, I would imagine would fumble around with the need to construct some though.
if you want to, you can list some and enlighten me. Curious on what they would be.
I don't know all the details about what went on behind the scenes, and neither do you. That's my point. I'm not going to make assumptions or jump to conclusions based on Dave's word alone. If you want to, have at it. But there's always two sides... we don't know the whole story and probably never will.
You don't know that they demanded Dave not be on the cover of Unplugged, you can only make that assumption. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. Who cares? (besides you & Dave, of course)
Crying about his exclusion from the Funko Pops? My goodness. Get a grip. If you're honestly still this upset about how they treat the guy, why are you still paying dues here?
It wasn't working out, they fired him, and seem to have done ok in the years since then. That tells me they didn't make the wrong decision.
I can accept that I don't know all the details about his departure from the band and have moved on with my life. That you can't is on you.
Since we're here, you may want to familiarize yourself w/ what the term 'blindly carrying water' means, and while you're at it, look up 'projection' as well.
when you are releasing an old show many years after he left the band, I don’t see it as a problem to picture the members on the album that are currently in the band
Everyone has their own opinion ofc.
I think what KISS did is respectful and what is right:
Versus, what you, I presume from your post, would not see any problem with:
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
if PJ was considering replacing their drummer today and obviously that drummer has to play the entire catalogue not just the albums they originally appeared on, who is the drummer?
Are the Dave supporters saying Dave would play Jack and Matt tunes better than Matt can play Dave and Jack tunes ?
I really don’t think these discussions really take into account the body of work as it actually exists in deciding what drummer you prefer. Any one would have to play everything. That’s a hypothetical that could happen. Saying who the best is otherwise is incomparable as the albums are different
say what you want about Matt. Being a well rounded drummer he is.
matt is at a disadvantage because we have no idea how Dave would fit into a typical PJ set today
If they wanted to skip on showing Dave - tell the Art Director to come up with another solution than portraits of the band, instead of demanding not having the drummer from that very show shown but every other member.
Similar shit can be applied to the funko toys. Common sense. Common respect.
Anyone defending that choice is not worth ever having a discussion with, regarding this band or anything else. They are just blindly carrying water.
And I'm not a gigantic fan of one drummer over another. I just call the shots as I see them. Because I am just such a great and open-minded person.
if PJ was considering replacing their drummer today and obviously that drummer has to play the entire catalogue not just the albums they originally appeared on, who is the drummer?
Are the Dave supporters saying Dave would play Jack and Matt tunes better than Matt can play Dave and Jack tunes ?
I really don’t think these discussions really take into account the body of work as it actually exists in deciding what drummer you prefer. Any one would have to play everything. That’s a hypothetical that could happen. Saying who the best is otherwise is incomparable as the albums are different
say what you want about Matt. Being a well rounded drummer he is.
matt is at a disadvantage because we have no idea how Dave would fit into a typical PJ set today
If they wanted to skip on showing Dave - tell the Art Director to come up with another solution than portraits of the band, instead of demanding not having the drummer from that very show shown but every other member.
Similar shit can be applied to the funko toys. Common sense. Common respect.
Anyone defending that choice is not worth ever having a discussion with, regarding this band or anything else. They are just blindly carrying water.
And I'm not a gigantic fan of one drummer over another. I just call the shots as I see them. Because I am just such a great and open-minded person.
You're not in any way open minded about the things you don't know.
What would these things I do not know be, in all of my open-mindeness? List some.
If you were as open minded as you claim, you would be able to imagine some of them on your own.
I can imagine things, but I do not see any that in any way would take away from my post.
Someone carrying water blindly, I would imagine would fumble around with the need to construct some though.
if you want to, you can list some and enlighten me. Curious on what they would be.
Comments
Or at least for a few hours
www.headstonesband.com
merits of the argument aside. Dave steers this ship more than anyone
(Although there IS a conversation to be had that No Code or anything after that doesn't happen if not for JI... IIRC one of the band members is on record as saying [more or less] that they were on the brink of breaking up at that point & he pulled them back together, but I digress)
I don’t know what people want the band to do for a guy who was with them for < 10% of their existence, hasn’t been a member in almost 30 years and still gripes about it publically decades later. (perhaps that last point might be the reason why he was snubbed from the Unplugged album cover?)
IDK, but I'm over it & have been over it for some time. I understand that Dave A isn't over it... it would be a tough thing to get over, no doubt. How fans aren't over it though is beyond me.
What gripes was he spouting then? Was he even active on social media back then? Or did interviews?
As far as what Dave was spouting and when I'm sure don't know, I don't keep up with all of it. I only see what's brought to the table here in the forum.
Him not being shown on the wide shot (on the vinyl), has not -from what I remember - been nearly as big as them not having a portrait of him on the DVD. If you are saying that there was a discussion when the LP was released.
That the band released Unplugged on cd in 2009 is news to me.
Similar shit can be applied to the funko toys. Common sense. Common respect.
Anyone defending that choice is not worth ever having a discussion with, regarding this band or anything else. They are just blindly carrying water.
And I'm not a gigantic fan of one drummer over another. I just call the shots as I see them. Because I am just such a great and open-minded person.
You're not in any way open minded about the things you don't know.
when you are releasing an old show many years after he left the band, I don’t see it as a problem to picture the members on the album that are currently in the band
they didn’t photoshop him out of the picture in the cabin when they reissued vs
he’s on the back of the unplugged lp
Someone carrying water blindly, I would imagine would fumble around with the need to construct some though.
if you want to, you can list some and enlighten me. Curious on what they would be.
I don't know all the details about what went on behind the scenes, and neither do you. That's my point. I'm not going to make assumptions or jump to conclusions based on Dave's word alone. If you want to, have at it. But there's always two sides... we don't know the whole story and probably never will.
You don't know that they demanded Dave not be on the cover of Unplugged, you can only make that assumption. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. Who cares? (besides you & Dave, of course)
Crying about his exclusion from the Funko Pops? My goodness. Get a grip. If you're honestly still this upset about how they treat the guy, why are you still paying dues here?
It wasn't working out, they fired him, and seem to have done ok in the years since then. That tells me they didn't make the wrong decision.
I can accept that I don't know all the details about his departure from the band and have moved on with my life. That you can't is on you.
Since we're here, you may want to familiarize yourself w/ what the term 'blindly carrying water' means, and while you're at it, look up 'projection' as well.
I think what KISS did is respectful and what is right:
Versus, what you, I presume from your post, would not see any problem with:
if PJ was considering replacing their drummer today and obviously that drummer has to play the entire catalogue not just the albums they originally appeared on, who is the drummer?
Are the Dave supporters saying Dave would play Jack and Matt tunes better than Matt can play Dave and Jack tunes ?
I really don’t think these discussions really take into account the body of work as it actually exists in deciding what drummer you prefer. Any one would have to play everything. That’s a hypothetical that could happen. Saying who the best is otherwise is incomparable as the albums are different
say what you want about Matt. Being a well rounded drummer he is.
matt is at a disadvantage because we have no idea how Dave would fit into a typical PJ set today
Agreed!
Eddie Vedder Düsseldorf 06/30/2019
"The future ain't what it used to be..."