Music in general or rock music? The Beatles are just in a class by themselves. GOAT. Hendrix changed the sound of rock n roll. Sex Pistols introduced something entirely new. Kraftwerk and Devo made music on synthesizers. Beastie Boys took rap global and transformed the genre with the samples. They do not get enough credit. Garth Brooks changed country music to appeal to the masses. I have never seen a more seismic shift in music than when Nevermind came out. Probably missing other artists, maybe Sabbath for metal, REM or Talking Heads as all time great "indie" bands.
While it's definitely true that the Beastie Boys were the first rap group that a LOT of people worldwide who were not otherwise listening to R&B and Soul heard, it's soooooo UNtrue that the Beastie Boys were THE GROUP who "transformed the genre with samples". Rap and Hip Hop from the time of their birth, Kool Herc was using samples in the 70s!! The use of samples for creating new music came way before the Beasties, and the Beasties were a PUNK band before they caught on to rap and figured out their part of that.
No question, the Beasties were incredibly talented, I was listening to "Paul's Boutique" the other day which has some amazing samples. But there are so many other rap artists who are more innovative and more legendary in terms of how samples were/are used, the Beastie Boys don't get more credit for that because they did not give birth to it nor are they the best at it. But they are damn good at it and I do love them.
I also saw Public Enemy open for the Beastie Boys on the Licensed to Ill tour... Unforgettable show, for so many reasons, but so glad I was there!
I agree others were using samples, but Paul's Boutique was something elevated. It was an entire record of meticulously blended multi layered samples and rapping. And agree the dust brothers deserve a TON of credit for the record.
It's not just that "others were using samples", it's that if we're going to talk about which artists "changed music" or "changed rock", you said the Beastie Boys "transformed the genre with samples". That's just not true. The Dust Brothers added to the genre with their contributions, but they didn't use samples in any innovative way that makes them somehow a pioneer. They were just REALLY good at what they do.
Send me a song.
A Dust Brothers song? Or a song by who?
Send me a song in support of your position.
My position is that actual history is cool. Looking at things chronologically. The Beastie Boys did not "transform the genre with samples", because samples, originally in the form of "breaks", "transformed the genre" of urban music and later rock LONG before the Beastie Boys even decided they were a rap act and not a punk band.
I can simply send you any rap song before the Beastie's first release that features samples. You do know that there were an abundance of rap records featuring samples before the Beasties ever made one, yes?
I could post countless songs... but honestly I don't need to post a song to show actual documented recorded history, all you have to do is read these for starters:
So if you dispute that the genre that has come to be known as rap & hip hop, and urban music beyond that, and then rock eventually, was transformed by samples starting with Kool Herc in the 70s, (and before Kool Herc the true origins of samples were JAZZ music!), what can you point to to support your position that the Beasties should get the credit? Because what I've said isn't a position, it's music history, which is chronological in nature, in case you aren't really down yet with the whole "history" angle...
Understood, and fair enough. I did not dispute that sampling existing before the Beasties or what Djs were doing in the clubs, that clearly influenced them. I am just not aware of an earlier, entire record that is built on multi layered samples the way Paul's Boutique is. Which of course does not mean one does not exist, it just means I do not know about it!
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,297
"Sampling" thread, perhaps, lol.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Am I the only one here who sees rock and rap/hip hop as being two distinct genres in music?
They are distinct genres, but no question that rap has had serious impact on rock. From rock pop to heavy rock, rap has had an unmistakable influence on many bands. So in a conversation about which 5 artists had biggest impact on the rock genre, it is totally fair to discuss rap artists because of how much that music has affected so many genres, even dang country!
And just to make @Get_Right happy, I'll hold the Beastie Boys up as a good example of the mix . Check out this song, it's impossible to say it's not a perfect fusion of rock and rap, even if you don't like the song itself...
Am I the only one here who sees rock and rap/hip hop as being two distinct genres in music?
They are distinct genres, but no question that rap has had serious impact on rock. From rock pop to heavy rock, rap has had an unmistakable influence on many bands. So in a conversation about which 5 artists had biggest impact on the rock genre, it is totally fair to discuss rap artists because of how much that music has affected so many genres, even dang country!
And just to make @Get_Right happy, I'll hold the Beastie Boys up as a good example of the mix . Check out this song, it's impossible to say it's not a perfect fusion of rock and rap, even if you don't like the song itself...
[Note the "proves my point perfectly" first subtitles "TENSE ANGRY MUSIC" ]
Part of the dilemma here is that there is no definitive answer to the question. "Is rap and hip hop rock music?" That debate has gone on for a long time and there is no pat answer. I would, however, agree with the notion that rap has, indeed, influenced rock, but so has classical music (as in, Electric Light Orchestra, etc.), and opera (The Who, Queen), flamingo (The Doors' Robbie Krieger, José Feliciano), country (as in, any one of many), etc, but the original focus of the thread's question was about rock, not rap, classical, opera, flamenco, country, or etc.
If you guys want to make it about rap, fine. I only started the thread, I'm not going to "police" it.
But I might abandon it.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Am I the only one here who sees rock and rap/hip hop as being two distinct genres in music?
They are distinct genres, but no question that rap has had serious impact on rock. From rock pop to heavy rock, rap has had an unmistakable influence on many bands. So in a conversation about which 5 artists had biggest impact on the rock genre, it is totally fair to discuss rap artists because of how much that music has affected so many genres, even dang country!
And just to make @Get_Right happy, I'll hold the Beastie Boys up as a good example of the mix . Check out this song, it's impossible to say it's not a perfect fusion of rock and rap, even if you don't like the song itself...
[Note the "proves my point perfectly" first subtitles "TENSE ANGRY MUSIC" ]
Part of the dilemma here is that there is no definitive answer to the question. "Is rap and hip hop rock music?" That debate has gone on for a long time and there is no pat answer. I would, however, agree with the notion that rap has, indeed, influenced rock, but so has classical music (as in, Electric Light Orchestra, etc.), and opera (The Who, Queen), flamingo (The Doors' Robbie Krieger, José Feliciano), country (as in, any one of many), etc, but the original focus of the thread's question was about rock, not rap, classical, opera, flamenco, country, or etc.
If you guys want to make it about rap, fine. I only started the thread, I'm not going to "police" it.
But I might abandon it.
Actually Brian, I don't know anyone who thinks rap or hip hop IS rock music. I only know people who think a) that rap & hip hop have clearly influenced some rock music; b) people who remember that rock music was BORN from soul music, blues music, and roots/pre-country music; and c) people who would agree that because you asked about bands that shaped rock, this ENTIRE thread is people discussing which artists had real impact on changing the direction of rock.
But you feel that talking about Rap/Hip Hop's influence on rock is us "making it about rap", and you might abandon the thread.......
No need to abandon it. Get_Right says "back to regularly scheduled programming" and for me, the main points have been made and I am not into your sense that we're "making this about rap" so I'm out. Unless someone else brings it up, you're probably free of rap and hip hop mentions from here on out in this discussion.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,297
Am I the only one here who sees rock and rap/hip hop as being two distinct genres in music?
They are distinct genres, but no question that rap has had serious impact on rock. From rock pop to heavy rock, rap has had an unmistakable influence on many bands. So in a conversation about which 5 artists had biggest impact on the rock genre, it is totally fair to discuss rap artists because of how much that music has affected so many genres, even dang country!
And just to make @Get_Right happy, I'll hold the Beastie Boys up as a good example of the mix . Check out this song, it's impossible to say it's not a perfect fusion of rock and rap, even if you don't like the song itself...
[Note the "proves my point perfectly" first subtitles "TENSE ANGRY MUSIC" ]
Part of the dilemma here is that there is no definitive answer to the question. "Is rap and hip hop rock music?" That debate has gone on for a long time and there is no pat answer. I would, however, agree with the notion that rap has, indeed, influenced rock, but so has classical music (as in, Electric Light Orchestra, etc.), and opera (The Who, Queen), flamingo (The Doors' Robbie Krieger, José Feliciano), country (as in, any one of many), etc, but the original focus of the thread's question was about rock, not rap, classical, opera, flamenco, country, or etc.
If you guys want to make it about rap, fine. I only started the thread, I'm not going to "police" it.
But I might abandon it.
Actually Brian, I don't know anyone who thinks rap or hip hop IS rock music. I only know people who think a) that rap & hip hop have clearly influenced some rock music; b) people who remember that rock music was BORN from soul music, blues music, and roots/pre-country music; and c) people who would agree that because you asked about bands that shaped rock, this ENTIRE thread is people discussing which artists had real impact on changing the direction of rock.
But you feel that talking about Rap/Hip Hop's influence on rock is us "making it about rap", and you might abandon the thread.......
No need to abandon it. Get_Right says "back to regularly scheduled programming" and for me, the main points have been made and I am not into your sense that we're "making this about rap" so I'm out. Unless someone else brings it up, you're probably free of rap and hip hop mentions from here on out in this discussion.
Fair enough and my apologies. I admit I over-reacted.
"BORN from soul music, blues music, and roots/pre-country music" So true. Without those roots, we would probably be listening to Klingon operas. Thank GOD for soul music, blues music, and roots/pre-country music!
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Not much mention of Led Zeppelin but they had a huge influence on rock music. They changed the record industry as well as what live rock shows became.
I think Sabbath had a bigger mark on the world of rock than Zep did. They were big, yes but I don't see them as game changers. Maybe some kids wanted to play their guitar with a bow?
Am I the only one here who sees rock and rap/hip hop as being two distinct genres in music?
They are distinct genres, but no question that rap has had serious impact on rock. From rock pop to heavy rock, rap has had an unmistakable influence on many bands. So in a conversation about which 5 artists had biggest impact on the rock genre, it is totally fair to discuss rap artists because of how much that music has affected so many genres, even dang country!
And just to make @Get_Right happy, I'll hold the Beastie Boys up as a good example of the mix . Check out this song, it's impossible to say it's not a perfect fusion of rock and rap, even if you don't like the song itself...
Not much mention of Led Zeppelin but they had a huge influence on rock music. They changed the record industry as well as what live rock shows became.
I think Sabbath had a bigger mark on the world of rock than Zep did. They were big, yes but I don't see them as game changers. Maybe some kids wanted to play their guitar with a bow?
I was referring to how they had creative control of there music and the 3+ hour live shows. To me Zeppelin was most influential as a live band
Am I the only one here who sees rock and rap/hip hop as being two distinct genres in music?
They are distinct genres, but no question that rap has had serious impact on rock. From rock pop to heavy rock, rap has had an unmistakable influence on many bands. So in a conversation about which 5 artists had biggest impact on the rock genre, it is totally fair to discuss rap artists because of how much that music has affected so many genres, even dang country!
And just to make @Get_Right happy, I'll hold the Beastie Boys up as a good example of the mix . Check out this song, it's impossible to say it's not a perfect fusion of rock and rap, even if you don't like the song itself...
[Note the "proves my point perfectly" first subtitles "TENSE ANGRY MUSIC" ]
This is a rap group playing rock music and has no rap undertones...
The style reminds me of 90's hardcore perfectly too. A lot of NY bands at this time sounded like this.
I believe Blondie gave rapping a try in a song way back when too?
I disagree that it's "rock music" only and has "no rap undertones", and would happily get into a discussion about this specific song, but further discussion of rap isn't welcome in this convo by the original poster so... maybe we'll meet up at an east coast gig one day and have this debate in person
Is it Little Richard, Chuck Berry or Bo Diddley that started the rock thing or a combination of the 3?
A number of people have made a good argument for Jackie Brenston's “Rocket 88” from 1951 being the beginning of rock and roll. There's even a music book publishing company named after the song:
Not much mention of Led Zeppelin but they had a huge influence on rock music. They changed the record industry as well as what live rock shows became.
I think Sabbath had a bigger mark on the world of rock than Zep did. They were big, yes but I don't see them as game changers. Maybe some kids wanted to play their guitar with a bow?
I love Sabbath but vehemently disagree with this take. No band in that era is more influential than Zeppelin, on many levels.
Dallas, TX (November 15, 2013) Chicago 1 (August 20, 2016) Chicago 2 (August 22, 2016) Ft. Worth 1 (September 13, 2023) Ft. Worth 2 (September 15, 2023)
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,297
Not much mention of Led Zeppelin but they had a huge influence on rock music. They changed the record industry as well as what live rock shows became.
I think Sabbath had a bigger mark on the world of rock than Zep did. They were big, yes but I don't see them as game changers. Maybe some kids wanted to play their guitar with a bow?
I love Sabbath but vehemently disagree with this take. No band in that era is more influential than Zeppelin, on many levels.
Discounting personal biases, I would say, more influential from that era than Sabbath or Zep would be The Jimi Hendrix Experience.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Not much mention of Led Zeppelin but they had a huge influence on rock music. They changed the record industry as well as what live rock shows became.
I think Sabbath had a bigger mark on the world of rock than Zep did. They were big, yes but I don't see them as game changers. Maybe some kids wanted to play their guitar with a bow?
I love Sabbath but vehemently disagree with this take. No band in that era is more influential than Zeppelin, on many levels.
Discounting personal biases, I would say, more influential from that era than Sabbath or Zep would be The Jimi Hendrix Experience.
Jimi died in 1970. Zeppelin's first album came out in 1969. There wasn't much overlap between the two. And if we are being technical the Experience were done in 1969 before Zep's first album was released. He had moved on to Band of Gypsys by then. If you're not familiar with the BOG material I would highly recommend it. It's amazing stuff.
Post edited by ZoSoTim on
Dallas, TX (November 15, 2013) Chicago 1 (August 20, 2016) Chicago 2 (August 22, 2016) Ft. Worth 1 (September 13, 2023) Ft. Worth 2 (September 15, 2023)
Don’t think I could get on board with a list without Beatles, Zeppelin and Floyd. When they weren’t the first or best to do something, they were often the chief purveyor.
Regarding women in rock, while it seems counterintuitive to say so, I think Cobain had a lot to do with the rise in their broader acceptance. You had to be fairly mainstream before him to gain traction but he cemented a broader acceptance of women heading down more experimental avenues.
Sabbath>zeppelin. Plus sab didn't rip anyone's riffs as far as I know. I like zeppelin but when I got a howling wolf record and heard a song that zeppelin took from him (no credit given initially) it kind of rubbed me the wrong way. Whatever rock on.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,297
Not much mention of Led Zeppelin but they had a huge influence on rock music. They changed the record industry as well as what live rock shows became.
I think Sabbath had a bigger mark on the world of rock than Zep did. They were big, yes but I don't see them as game changers. Maybe some kids wanted to play their guitar with a bow?
I love Sabbath but vehemently disagree with this take. No band in that era is more influential than Zeppelin, on many levels.
Discounting personal biases, I would say, more influential from that era than Sabbath or Zep would be The Jimi Hendrix Experience.
Jimi died in 1970. Zeppelin's first album came out in 1969. There wasn't much overlap between the two. And if we are being technical the Experience were done in 1969 before Zep's first album was released. He had moved on to Band of Gypsys by then. If you're not familiar with the BOG material I would highly recommend it. It's amazing stuff.
Zep started in August, 1968, the same year I saw Hendrix for the first time, so I think of them as being from the same era. The Buddy Miles Express opened for Jimi and I like his own band better than I did the work he did with Band of Gypsys. Other than "Machine Gun", I'm not real big on BOG. In any case, yeah, I'm definitely familiar with all that, lol.
I also saw The Who in 1968 which, to my way of thinking anyway (which does not mean I'm some kind of authority), was the beginning of their peak years, 1960 to 1970. I had never before nor since seen a band like them, with a guitar player who played like a drummer, a drummer who played like a guitar player, a bass player who played like a lead guitar player, and singer great singer and microphone acrobat to front them. (Which is why I listed them earlier on.)
Post edited by brianlux on
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Sabbath>zeppelin. Plus sab didn't rip anyone's riffs as far as I know. I like zeppelin but when I got a howling wolf record and heard a song that zeppelin took from him (no credit given initially) it kind of rubbed me the wrong way. Whatever rock on.
I was never a big Sabbath fan, but in their early days I was always kind of impressed with their fans. They were people who I suspected knew something most of us didn't. I think for me it was that Sabbath was a bit too dark. But Tony Iommi became an inspiration for me later on after in 1975 I had an accident that shattered the tip of my left (fret board) hand's middle finger and almost lost that finger down to the first outer joint. I went through a lot of pain to have what was left saved and eventually learned to keep playing guitar despite a somewhat mutilated finger. Reading about Iommi's troubles that way was really inspiring.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Am I the only one here who sees rock and rap/hip hop as being two distinct genres in music?
They are distinct genres, but no question that rap has had serious impact on rock. From rock pop to heavy rock, rap has had an unmistakable influence on many bands. So in a conversation about which 5 artists had biggest impact on the rock genre, it is totally fair to discuss rap artists because of how much that music has affected so many genres, even dang country!
And just to make @Get_Right happy, I'll hold the Beastie Boys up as a good example of the mix . Check out this song, it's impossible to say it's not a perfect fusion of rock and rap, even if you don't like the song itself...
[Note the "proves my point perfectly" first subtitles "TENSE ANGRY MUSIC" ]
This is a rap group playing rock music and has no rap undertones...
The style reminds me of 90's hardcore perfectly too. A lot of NY bands at this time sounded like this.
I believe Blondie gave rapping a try in a song way back when too?
I disagree that it's "rock music" only and has "no rap undertones", and would happily get into a discussion about this specific song, but further discussion of rap isn't welcome in this convo by the original poster so... maybe we'll meet up at an east coast gig one day and have this debate in person
I would argue the Beastie Boys were pretty influential in changing both rock AND rap in the late '80s early '90s.
Run DMC and Aerosmith started it really and you can thank the producer Rick Rubin for that. The melding of rock/rap. If the Beasties weren't on Def Jam and had Rick as a producer I am not sure how much rock would have been in there? You think Public Enemy was going to sample Angel of Death without Ricks needling and that they were all on the same label?
Rock/rap was akin to numetal, Korn, RATM. They had the sounds and delivery. Beastie Boys rock/hardcore songs are the furthest from rapping... Sabotage is a great song and it isn't rap.
Sorry Brian. I am just passionate about music, lol!
Not much mention of Led Zeppelin but they had a huge influence on rock music. They changed the record industry as well as what live rock shows became.
I think Sabbath had a bigger mark on the world of rock than Zep did. They were big, yes but I don't see them as game changers. Maybe some kids wanted to play their guitar with a bow?
I love Sabbath but vehemently disagree with this take. No band in that era is more influential than Zeppelin, on many levels.
Not much mention of Led Zeppelin but they had a huge influence on rock music. They changed the record industry as well as what live rock shows became.
I think Sabbath had a bigger mark on the world of rock than Zep did. They were big, yes but I don't see them as game changers. Maybe some kids wanted to play their guitar with a bow?
I love Sabbath but vehemently disagree with this take. No band in that era is more influential than Zeppelin, on many levels.
Discounting personal biases, I would say, more influential from that era than Sabbath or Zep would be The Jimi Hendrix Experience.
For hard rock if you ever listen to interviews the same song was always mentioned. War Pigs. Sure everybody loves Zepp but there was something about Sabbath that really made people go nuts.
Comments
Understood, and fair enough. I did not dispute that sampling existing before the Beasties or what Djs were doing in the clubs, that clearly influenced them. I am just not aware of an earlier, entire record that is built on multi layered samples the way Paul's Boutique is. Which of course does not mean one does not exist, it just means I do not know about it!
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Sorry about that, back to regularly scheduled programming.
No worries.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
And just to make @Get_Right happy, I'll hold the Beastie Boys up as a good example of the mix
[Note the "proves my point perfectly" first subtitles "TENSE ANGRY MUSIC"
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
But you feel that talking about Rap/Hip Hop's influence on rock is us "making it about rap", and you might abandon the thread.......
No need to abandon it. Get_Right says "back to regularly scheduled programming" and for me, the main points have been made and I am not into your sense that we're "making this about rap" so I'm out. Unless someone else brings it up, you're probably free of rap and hip hop mentions from here on out in this discussion.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
The style reminds me of 90's hardcore perfectly too. A lot of NY bands at this time sounded like this.
I believe Blondie gave rapping a try in a song way back when too?
Is it Little Richard, Chuck Berry or Bo Diddley that started the rock thing or a combination of the 3?
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Chicago 1 (August 20, 2016)
Chicago 2 (August 22, 2016)
Ft. Worth 1 (September 13, 2023)
Ft. Worth 2 (September 15, 2023)
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Chicago 1 (August 20, 2016)
Chicago 2 (August 22, 2016)
Ft. Worth 1 (September 13, 2023)
Ft. Worth 2 (September 15, 2023)
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
It would've been interesting what they would've put out if they were able to be together for a few years.
I was never a big Sabbath fan, but in their early days I was always kind of impressed with their fans. They were people who I suspected knew something most of us didn't. I think for me it was that Sabbath was a bit too dark.
But Tony Iommi became an inspiration for me later on after in 1975 I had an accident that shattered the tip of my left (fret board) hand's middle finger and almost lost that finger down to the first outer joint. I went through a lot of pain to have what was left saved and eventually learned to keep playing guitar despite a somewhat mutilated finger. Reading about Iommi's troubles that way was really inspiring.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Rock/rap was akin to numetal, Korn, RATM. They had the sounds and delivery. Beastie Boys rock/hardcore songs are the furthest from rapping... Sabotage is a great song and it isn't rap.
Sorry Brian. I am just passionate about music, lol!
The King of Rock came out before Licensed to Ill.