Has the world (as we know it) ended?

Stove

There certainly is no "normal" no go back to it....the only way is forward. And where does that lead us? I can't tell you how many people I've talked to (particularly the younger generation) who are very doom and gloom and justifiable so. I think in part it has to do with are access to news and information and because of the 24 hour news cycle it is all very fear inducing. And yet there seems no clear end in sight. Has civilization been on a slow bleed out since the beginning of the pandemic?

brianlux

Stove said:

There certainly is no "normal" no go back to it....the only way is forward. And where does that lead us? I can't tell you how many people I've talked to (particularly the younger generation) who are very doom and gloom and justifiable so. I think in part it has to do with are access to news and information and because of the 24 hour news cycle it is all very fear inducing. And yet there seems no clear end in sight. Has civilization been on a slow bleed out since the beginning of the pandemic?

Bill McKibben wrote an excellent book in 2010 called Eaarth, renaming the planet because it was been altered in ways that will not be reversible for a very long time to come.  Although much of what McKibben tell us is unsettling, it also provides us with some hope.  I think that's important.  If we have no hope, we may as well all go jump off a cliff.  Author Alan Weisman describes the hope this book gives us:  "With clarity, eloquence, deep knowledge and even deeper compassion for both planet and people, Bill McKibben guides us to the brink of a new, uncharted era. This monumental book, probably his greatest, may restore your faith in the future, with us in it."

brianlux

I hope this thread gets some traction.  I'm always interested to see what people think about where we're headed. 
Maybe I'm just looking for either hopeful perspectives I can't see, or doom and gloom so exaggerated as to make my concerns about the future feel less ominous. 

Stove

The intensity certainly is different...everyone little thing happening now seems to all add to this larger picture of self-annihilation. I would be curious to hear what elders think about it. I was talking to my aunt who live through the time of scarlet fever, which I'd imagine was part of it's time. I think the difference is now we know what everyone is instantly thinking via social media. And I think that causes a lot of tension and anxiety. It also doesn't help that in the states it's more divided than ever.

jpgoegel

Im an openly worrisome person when it comes to climate change.  That subject concerns me most.   That will take all of us, not just the factions within the US but the world, to solve.  That I dont have a positive outlook on.

US politics, I'm torn.   I think we're inundated (perhaps with a lot of other subjects as well) with to much information.  Not that it's bad, but I think it's relative to what we know.  As a human that is pre-internet/pre-24 hr news aged, I always try to right myself about the the onslaught of news that occurs, in comparison to what I remember, which is unfair.   Upon reading Tom Nichols "Our Own Worst Enemy", that gives me a little more hope in that arena.

brianlux

Stove said:

The intensity certainly is different...everyone little thing happening now seems to all add to this larger picture of self-annihilation. I would be curious to hear what elders think about it. I was talking to my aunt who live through the time of scarlet fever, which I'd imagine was part of it's time. I think the difference is now we know what everyone is instantly thinking via social media. And I think that causes a lot of tension and anxiety. It also doesn't help that in the states it's more divided than ever.

My G.I. generation parents are not still with but if they were, I think my mother would be worried to the extreme but I think my father would have been more stoic about it.  But he lives through WWII and a lot of G.I.s from that era believed in the resilience of humans.  I wish I were that optimistic.

jpgoegel said:

Im an openly worrisome person when it comes to climate change.  That subject concerns me most.   That will take all of us, not just the factions within the US but the world, to solve.  That I dont have a positive outlook on.

US politics, I'm torn.   I think we're inundated (perhaps with a lot of other subjects as well) with to much information.  Not that it's bad, but I think it's relative to what we know.  As a human that is pre-internet/pre-24 hr news aged, I always try to right myself about the the onslaught of news that occurs, in comparison to what I remember, which is unfair.   Upon reading Tom Nichols "Our Own Worst Enemy", that gives me a little more hope in that arena.

Yeah climate change really is the big one these days.  I totally get your concern, JPG.
Same about news overload.  An acquaintance recently suggested I go on a news fast.  I told her it is not in my nature to do that but that I would try taking smaller news portions.  That's actually been helpful lately.

HughFreakingDillon

At the lake for a week gives a welcome breath from “reality”. Then a friend visited and we got on that topic and this usually very affable guy turns to me and says “the world is fucked, man, totally fucked”. 

I’m of the opinion that it’s all cyclical. Most generations have had to deal with something similar; climate being the outlier. That one, in my opinion, is the biggest issue right now. But the most powerful just don’t care. 

brianlux

HughFreakingDillon said:

At the lake for a week gives a welcome breath from “reality”. Then a friend visited and we got on that topic and this usually very affable guy turns to me and says “the world is fucked, man, totally fucked”. 

I’m of the opinion that it’s all cyclical. Most generations have had to deal with something similar; climate being the outlier. That one, in my opinion, is the biggest issue right now. But the most powerful just don’t care. 

I totally agree.  Remove climate change (and some of the more serious environmental degradation) and were left with the same old cyclical merry-go-round civilization has been on since the advent of agriculture.  So yeah, excellent point!

Stove

HughFreakingDillon said:

At the lake for a week gives a welcome breath from “reality”. Then a friend visited and we got on that topic and this usually very affable guy turns to me and says “the world is fucked, man, totally fucked”. 

I’m of the opinion that it’s all cyclical. Most generations have had to deal with something similar; climate being the outlier. That one, in my opinion, is the biggest issue right now. But the most powerful just don’t care. 

Yeah I keep going back to Metallica cynically...hitting it on the nose in 2016.
"We're so fucked, shit outta luck. Hardwired to self-destruct."

For me I wonder if it's an age thing. As an adult I'm just more aware of what goes on...I wish I weren't and maybe that's why our parents were there. To protect us from this types of things....I'm not a parent but I don't know what parents are telling their kids in terms of where this is all going.

mace1229

The world as we know it is always ending. Every 10-20 years there’s an advancement that changes everyday life. From electricity, to lightbulbs, cars, telephone, TV, internet, cell phones, etc. so the simple answer to the question is yes.
But I think this question is asking if we’re going backwards, not forwards.
My biggest concern is population. If you look at population growth it’s very scary. Since the population grows at a steady rate, it’s actually fast and faster over time. We’ve gained about 50 million people since the year 2000. That’s more than the current population of Canada added to the US. You only have to go back to 1994 and we’ve added 70 million since then, that’s the population of the UK.
Our infrastructure can’t handle this growth forever. We’re already seeing some of it with housing. I know there are other factors, but supply and demand is a big one. More people want houses than what’s available. A $200k house 10 years ago is now $500k in some areas. It’s crazy. I’ve always believed that population growth, not climate, is going to be what forces us as a civilization to change.

mickeyrat

guess I start with what world do/did we think we had to start with?

bootlegger10

Society has always been a mess.  A difference now though is we can do a lot more damage to the environment/world than we could do in the past.

Gern Blansten

The internet is the culprit.

nicknyr15

Gern Blansten said:

The internet is the culprit.

I agree 

HughFreakingDillon

is it the culprit, or just the messenger?

Parksy

I believe greed and stupidity are the culprits.

And while most people are not inherently stupid.. I believe greed makes them do remarkably stupid things over and over again.   

nicknyr15

HughFreakingDillon said:

is it the culprit, or just the messenger?

I think of it as gasoline to a fire. 

HughFreakingDillon

nicknyr15 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

is it the culprit, or just the messenger?

I think of it as gasoline to a fire. 

I think it's a bit of both. It gives a window into the depravity of mankind for the casual observer, but it also shows those that lie in wait how to find like minded individuals. 

brianlux

I agree that the internet has had some negative impacts (as well as done some good).  I would add to the list of culprits (including Parksy's mentioning greed and stupidity) overpopulation, and isolation due to smartphones and (more recently) COVID.

cblock4life

Look back at the world throughout time and you’ll see there’s always been the struggle of good vs evil.  We’re given these people with unbelievable abilities to create art and beauty, others with magnificent minds to cure, operate, develop vaccines, humans who have callings to do well for others….then there’s the evil which always, always finds a way to disrupt the good. Internet has its good and its bad, just like people and society.  If we’re striving for perfection it’s not going to happen.  I think acceptance of reality is the only way to stay sane, cause the truth is, we’ve been watching good vs evil since the beginning of time and we haven’t figured it out yet. 

Like seriously, if school shootings of children aren’t a sign to stop the fucking bullshit with these guns then what kind of sign is going to accomplish the change?  Evil just keeps winning. 

tempo_n_groove

...And I feeeeel fine.

HughFreakingDillon

most of your post is spot on. I will only disagree with the last part. I liken the "evil keeps winning" perception to the vocal minority. The screaming disrupter in a group of quiet helpers. 100 million peaceful muslims vs 1000 that murder. 

which is why I've mostly turned off the news. deleted twitter (for the several-eth and hopefully final time). I'm aware of what's going on, but in smaller doses so as to not depress the fuck out of myself. 

cblock4life

HughFreakingDillon said:

most of your post is spot on. I will only disagree with the last part. I liken the "evil keeps winning" perception to the vocal minority. The screaming disrupter in a group of quiet helpers. 100 million peaceful muslims vs 1000 that murder. 

which is why I've mostly turned off the news. deleted twitter (for the several-eth and hopefully final time). I'm aware of what's going on, but in smaller doses so as to not depress the fuck out of myself. 

Yep, had to do that as well during the FF fiasco.  Husband said I was noticeably more withdrawn and that’s my sign to fix things.  I just couldn’t let a POS like FF suck the life out of me.  Fortunately, I’m able to clear my head fairly quickly, snap back into reality.  

static111

Capitalism and over population

cblock4life

“The screaming disrupter in a group of quiet helpers. 100 million peaceful muslims vs 1000 that murder.”  

Hmmm…..that’s an excellent and actually enlightening way of putting it.  I am a disrupter. I need to reflect a bit more.  And HFD you should be writing your stuff down for a future writing endeavor when you retire.  

HughFreakingDillon

cblock4life said:

“The screaming disrupter in a group of quiet helpers. 100 million peaceful muslims vs 1000 that murder.”  

Hmmm…..that’s an excellent and actually enlightening way of putting it.  I am a disrupter. I need to reflect a bit more.  And HFD you should be writing your stuff down for a future writing endeavor when you retire.  

thanks. I've been told a few times I should be a writer. 

Let me clarify...there are good disrupters and bad ones. 

Stove

Right...a lot of good points here...and do you think...that because of climate change that in our lifetime we will see this world change completely? To live in an environment that will be completely uninhabitable to us?
  Ed made a great point at Ohana of how "Quick Escape" is "a work of fiction" but it's pretty fucked up and ass backwards we want to explore space...when we haven't solved the issues on our own planet.

brianlux

Stove said:

Right...a lot of good points here...and do you think...that because of climate change that in our lifetime we will see this world change completely? To live in an environment that will be completely uninhabitable to us?
  Ed made a great point at Ohana of how "Quick Escape" is "a work of fiction" but it's pretty fucked up and ass backwards we want to explore space...when we haven't solved the issues on our own planet.

More good questions, Stove.
Between reading several books on climate and environment including the McKibben book I mentioned earlier, and having followed realclimate.org, Natural Resources Defense Council, and other publications, but as a mere amateur in these fields,  I am fairly certain we have already changed the world irrevocably, and for quite some time. 
But there have been other cataclysmic events in the earths long history that have done the same.  Earth has endured five major extinction events (and is in the beginnings of the sixth).  There have been large asteroid and meteor impacts that hugely altered the planet.  Major volcanic eruptions have made widespread changes to Earth.  And I'm sure humans have altered the planet in ways that are long lasting and, to some degree, permanent.  But I also am fairly confident the planet will mend itself and re-establish natural balances as it has in the past... until the next cataclysmic event.  And, eventually, the sun becomes a red giant in about 5 billion years and will destroy planet Earth.

I don't believe climate change itself will completely wipe out the human species.  I think it is fairly safe to say, looking at climate change alone, there will be parts of the world that will continue to support at least some pockets of large mammal life, including homo sapiens.

All of this is very concerning, of course.  It seems very likely that there will be a large and massive die-off of our species.  Many will tell you our technology will save us.  Who can say?  But honestly, I doubt it.
I do think there are two other major concerns for widespread loss of human life, possibly our own species extinction, and even possibly the end to life on earth:

-One would involve widespread nuclear war.  Would a full-scale nuclear war end all life on earth?  Some scientists have posited that is possible. Let's hope the planet isn't put to that test.
-The other is the possible major, widespread collapse of life in our oceans.  Several years ago, the late Jacques-Yves Cousteau, one of the founders of modern oceanic life sciences- warned that if we kill enough life in the oceans, the entire planet will suffer greatly.  His warnings have not been well headed. 

Sorry, I know this all sounds gloomy as hell, and it is.  But that's no reason to give up.  In fact, it behooves us to work harder to lessen our impact on the planet.

As for exploring space, I can think of few things that (to me) are a bigger waste of time, energy, and resources.  I know some here will fry me for saying that.  That's cool.  I respect others' opinions.

Stove

brianlux said:

Stove said:

Right...a lot of good points here...and do you think...that because of climate change that in our lifetime we will see this world change completely? To live in an environment that will be completely uninhabitable to us?
  Ed made a great point at Ohana of how "Quick Escape" is "a work of fiction" but it's pretty fucked up and ass backwards we want to explore space...when we haven't solved the issues on our own planet.

More good questions, Stove.
Between reading several books on climate and environment including the McKibben book I mentioned earlier, and having followed realclimate.org, Natural Resources Defense Council, and other publications, but as a mere amateur in these fields,  I am fairly certain we have already changed the world irrevocably, and for quite some time. 
But there have been other cataclysmic events in the earths long history that have done the same.  Earth has endured five major extinction events (and is in the beginnings of the sixth).  There have been large asteroid and meteor impacts that hugely altered the planet.  Major volcanic eruptions have made widespread changes to Earth.  And I'm sure humans have altered the planet in ways that are long lasting and, to some degree, permanent.  But I also am fairly confident the planet will mend itself and re-establish natural balances as it has in the past... until the next cataclysmic event.  And, eventually, the sun becomes a red giant in about 5 billion years and will destroy planet Earth.

I don't believe climate change itself will completely wipe out the human species.  I think it is fairly safe to say, looking at climate change alone, there will be parts of the world that will continue to support at least some pockets of large mammal life, including homo sapiens.

All of this is very concerning, of course.  It seems very likely that there will be a large and massive die-off of our species.  Many will tell you our technology will save us.  Who can say?  But honestly, I doubt it.
I do think there are two other major concerns for widespread loss of human life, possibly our own species extinction, and even possibly the end to life on earth:

-One would involve widespread nuclear war.  Would a full-scale nuclear war end all life on earth?  Some scientists have posited that is possible. Let's hope the planet isn't put to that test.
-The other is the possible major, widespread collapse of life in our oceans.  Several years ago, the late Jacques-Yves Cousteau, one of the founders of modern oceanic life sciences- warned that if we kill enough life in the oceans, the entire planet will suffer greatly.  His warnings have not been well headed. 

Sorry, I know this all sounds gloomy as hell, and it is.  But that's no reason to give up.  In fact, it behooves us to work harder to lessen our impact on the planet.

As for exploring space, I can think of few things that (to me) are a bigger waste of time, energy, and resources.  I know some here will fry me for saying that.  That's cool.  I respect others' opinions.

It is gloomy in the sense that...it feels more real every day. Like within this lifetime. And I do wonder that...if this is it and I will live to see the end....what a time that would be.

brianlux

Stove said:

brianlux said:

Stove said:

Right...a lot of good points here...and do you think...that because of climate change that in our lifetime we will see this world change completely? To live in an environment that will be completely uninhabitable to us?
  Ed made a great point at Ohana of how "Quick Escape" is "a work of fiction" but it's pretty fucked up and ass backwards we want to explore space...when we haven't solved the issues on our own planet.

More good questions, Stove.
Between reading several books on climate and environment including the McKibben book I mentioned earlier, and having followed realclimate.org, Natural Resources Defense Council, and other publications, but as a mere amateur in these fields,  I am fairly certain we have already changed the world irrevocably, and for quite some time. 
But there have been other cataclysmic events in the earths long history that have done the same.  Earth has endured five major extinction events (and is in the beginnings of the sixth).  There have been large asteroid and meteor impacts that hugely altered the planet.  Major volcanic eruptions have made widespread changes to Earth.  And I'm sure humans have altered the planet in ways that are long lasting and, to some degree, permanent.  But I also am fairly confident the planet will mend itself and re-establish natural balances as it has in the past... until the next cataclysmic event.  And, eventually, the sun becomes a red giant in about 5 billion years and will destroy planet Earth.

I don't believe climate change itself will completely wipe out the human species.  I think it is fairly safe to say, looking at climate change alone, there will be parts of the world that will continue to support at least some pockets of large mammal life, including homo sapiens.

All of this is very concerning, of course.  It seems very likely that there will be a large and massive die-off of our species.  Many will tell you our technology will save us.  Who can say?  But honestly, I doubt it.
I do think there are two other major concerns for widespread loss of human life, possibly our own species extinction, and even possibly the end to life on earth:

-One would involve widespread nuclear war.  Would a full-scale nuclear war end all life on earth?  Some scientists have posited that is possible. Let's hope the planet isn't put to that test.
-The other is the possible major, widespread collapse of life in our oceans.  Several years ago, the late Jacques-Yves Cousteau, one of the founders of modern oceanic life sciences- warned that if we kill enough life in the oceans, the entire planet will suffer greatly.  His warnings have not been well headed. 

Sorry, I know this all sounds gloomy as hell, and it is.  But that's no reason to give up.  In fact, it behooves us to work harder to lessen our impact on the planet.

As for exploring space, I can think of few things that (to me) are a bigger waste of time, energy, and resources.  I know some here will fry me for saying that.  That's cool.  I respect others' opinions.

It is gloomy in the sense that...it feels more real every day. Like within this lifetime. And I do wonder that...if this is it and I will live to see the end....what a time that would be.

Yes, well said.  I think more and more of us quite often are feeling the weight of these times.  But I think it is important to not get too close to the maelstrom and get sucked down into the vortex of despair.  Things could go flying all to shit tomorrow, or they could just degrade slowly over a long time. Since we don't really know, it really makes sense for us each to do our part, but at the same time to make sure we enjoy what is working every chance we get.  Make the best of each day and all that. 

Another thing I often think about is something I think you hinted at- that this is an amazing time in history.  There may never be another one like it.  One thing you cannot say about our era- it is not dull and boring and will not be glossed over by people in the future who ponder our history and science.  We are living in what might be the most dynamic period of human civilization.  That, in it's own weird way, is amazing and fascinating.

If you like reading about this kind of thing, here's a great book for our time.  Even though it was written 16 years ago, it still holds up really well for where we are at now.  It's a series of conversations between the author and some really bright minds talking about where we are headed.  David, Jay Brown's, Conversations on the Edge of the Apocalypse.

HughFreakingDillon

from what I gather from even the most pessimistic predictions, we won't see these dire consequences in our lifetime. Sure, we'll see increases in flooding and incelement weather and the like, but nothing "world ending" for a pretty long time. 

which is part of the problem. people look at those predictions and don't care, because they can't relate to worrying about a 2 degree increase (they think that's insignificant when it's not) in the next 75 years* ("I'll be dead by then")

*pulled that number out of my nether regions as an example