Ukraine

HughFreakingDillon

by "typical americanism" I think he meant in the media and society, as in "johnny depp/amber heard is getting more clicks than Ukraine, let's go with that as our lead". 

static111

HughFreakingDillon said:

by "typical americanism" I think he meant in the media and society, as in "johnny depp/amber heard is getting more clicks than Ukraine, let's go with that as our lead". 

Oh well yeah in that case I get it.  I don't know why people would spend more time thinking about Johnny Depp than the potential for a global conflict escalating with nuclear powers.  I guess that is pretty typical though.

HughFreakingDillon

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

by "typical americanism" I think he meant in the media and society, as in "johnny depp/amber heard is getting more clicks than Ukraine, let's go with that as our lead". 

Oh well yeah in that case I get it.  I don't know why people would spend more time thinking about Johnny Depp than the potential for a global conflict escalating with nuclear powers.  I guess that is pretty typical though.

some, admittedly like me, can't handle the constant onslaught of doom and gloom. as important as it is to remain at the forefront, sometimes I need some candy. 

static111

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

by "typical americanism" I think he meant in the media and society, as in "johnny depp/amber heard is getting more clicks than Ukraine, let's go with that as our lead". 

Oh well yeah in that case I get it.  I don't know why people would spend more time thinking about Johnny Depp than the potential for a global conflict escalating with nuclear powers.  I guess that is pretty typical though.

some, admittedly like me, can't handle the constant onslaught of doom and gloom. as important as it is to remain at the forefront, sometimes I need some candy. 

I will admit I have been side tracked by our other great american tradition, domestic gun violence.

mrussel1

static111 said:

mrussel1 said:

static111 said:

Slow news on the Ukraine front.  I've been wondering what happens if we fund this to the last standing Ukrainian and what that would mean as far as being a completely destabilized Ukraine and what that means to Europe.  A bunch of displaced people and a bunch of men with military experience and training, some of whom are very right wing.  Could this support come back to bite us like it did with Afghanistan/Al Qaeda?  With the global economy being further shredded and the threat of major food shortages worldwide especially in the global south and poorer countries should we not be trying to push for a settlement and some brokered talks?   Russia gets Donbas and Crimea Ukraine becomes Swiss like?  How much of the idea that Putin won't stop at Ukraine is sabre rattling and Manufacturing Consent?  On the other side if Ukraine somehow manages to "win" and Putin falls how does a completely destabilized Russia help the world?  What does a Russia completely financially in debt and dominated by China look like?  In a country where we are currently wondering what to do about domestic gun violence and far right ideology, why are we so quick to say that more guns is the answer here?  I have always been anti war at least since I have been an adult and have had my own agency of thought.  21st century and the cold war is alive and well.  there has to be another way of going forward that isn't that the US military power structure dictates the global narrative.  Sure giving up part of Ukraine to a hostile force isn't ideal and would not be easy to accept, but what is the alternative?  Do we let this proxy war become the real thing?  WWI was started from something far stupider than this.  

Ukraine is not Afghanistan.  They are not jihadist.  So no, I don't think there's any chance that you have marauding bands of soldiers in filtering into Moldova or something.  

It's always been the most likely outcome that some eastern Oblasts fall into Russian control.  That doesn't mean Ukraine should just let it happen and not fight.  And if the West cuts off arms, the whole of Ukraine will fall which will lead to massive humanitarian crisis along with senseless death of all types of citizenry, not just soldiers in battle.  Russia has proven that they will commit war crimes many times in the past and in Ukraine.  

No offense, but the news narrative of the last week is typical Americanism.  Didn't win a war in a month or two?  Tide turns a bit or there are setback?  Time to pull the plug.  My interest is elsewhere.  

This was always going to be a hard slog.  

Was Afghanistan seen as a Jihadist country before the USSR and USA decided to have a proxy war there?

The only winners with the west supplying arms seem to be the weapons manufacturers.  

Like I said I have pretty much been anti war since being an adult, so war is never something that I am in favor of.  The idea that this is "typical americanism" as didn't win in a month or two is a joke.  Typical americanism is overfunding and overstaying any conflict to the absolute breaking point with the idea that we are serving american strategic interests and geo-political stability or even laughably the concept of good vs evil, which has got us nowhere. I'm unsure that any of our forays in my 40 year life span have done a lot for global stability, if anything it has usually caused the opposite.

  Why wouldn't typical Americans begin to question if this is going to turn into another 20 year money sink.  I will admit that at the beginning of this conflict I was thinking that here we are with a just cause for once, how much of that was influenced by print and social media I can't calculate.  I do know that as the situation has escalated I have asked myself what the difference is between Iraq, Afghanistan and Ukraine when it comes to US involvement...I'm not sure there is any.

The people bearing the brunt of the financial woes in america are the poor and working class.  Obviously Ukrainians have it much worse with war at their actual doors. Global food instability that will damage former US Soviet playgrounds like afghanistan will affect us to a much lower level, except for the rising costs of groceries and gas that the uneducated rabble care so much about.

Yes, I was talking about media moving on to other things, which is what is happening as we speak.  

1. Afghanistan is a radicalized country, fighting against the West and Christianity.  Whether the Soviet and US wars created that or accentuated it is a bigger argument.  But I can't see any scenario where Ukraine, which has been trying to westernize against the yoke of Russia, would suddenly radicalize against the west.

2. The cause is the same today as it was in February.  What is changing for you?  Is it gas prices, grain prices?  Is it suddenly that you think we can't afford it?  Affording it is a red herring.  Everything we do, we borrow.  

The difference between Iraq and Ukraine is completely different. 
A) Iraq was waged for two reasons: 1. Access to oil 2. Making the mid east safe for Israel. 
Ukraine is the front line against a quasi-Fascist state that has been slowly trying to expand its economic and military power through wars of aggression in Chechnya, Georgia and now Ukraine.  Putin must be checked. 
C) We invaded Iraq to overthrow the existing gov't and tried to fight a war in their own territory.  For Ukraine, we are supporting young liberal democracy that seeks to protect its own freedom and right to self determination.
D) Our troops aren't on the ground in Ukraine.  They were in Iraq. 

The difference between Iraq and Ukraine could not be any more stark.  I honestly don't know how you can compare the two.  The only commonality is that they both cost money, but I'm pretty sure if you add up the costs, Iraq will be just a touch higher.  

mrussel1

stupid emoji for ( b ) 

mickeyrat

hmmm, my thinking is Ukraine decides for itself. And has.

static111

mrussel1 said:

static111 said:

mrussel1 said:

static111 said:

Slow news on the Ukraine front.  I've been wondering what happens if we fund this to the last standing Ukrainian and what that would mean as far as being a completely destabilized Ukraine and what that means to Europe.  A bunch of displaced people and a bunch of men with military experience and training, some of whom are very right wing.  Could this support come back to bite us like it did with Afghanistan/Al Qaeda?  With the global economy being further shredded and the threat of major food shortages worldwide especially in the global south and poorer countries should we not be trying to push for a settlement and some brokered talks?   Russia gets Donbas and Crimea Ukraine becomes Swiss like?  How much of the idea that Putin won't stop at Ukraine is sabre rattling and Manufacturing Consent?  On the other side if Ukraine somehow manages to "win" and Putin falls how does a completely destabilized Russia help the world?  What does a Russia completely financially in debt and dominated by China look like?  In a country where we are currently wondering what to do about domestic gun violence and far right ideology, why are we so quick to say that more guns is the answer here?  I have always been anti war at least since I have been an adult and have had my own agency of thought.  21st century and the cold war is alive and well.  there has to be another way of going forward that isn't that the US military power structure dictates the global narrative.  Sure giving up part of Ukraine to a hostile force isn't ideal and would not be easy to accept, but what is the alternative?  Do we let this proxy war become the real thing?  WWI was started from something far stupider than this.  

Ukraine is not Afghanistan.  They are not jihadist.  So no, I don't think there's any chance that you have marauding bands of soldiers in filtering into Moldova or something.  

It's always been the most likely outcome that some eastern Oblasts fall into Russian control.  That doesn't mean Ukraine should just let it happen and not fight.  And if the West cuts off arms, the whole of Ukraine will fall which will lead to massive humanitarian crisis along with senseless death of all types of citizenry, not just soldiers in battle.  Russia has proven that they will commit war crimes many times in the past and in Ukraine.  

No offense, but the news narrative of the last week is typical Americanism.  Didn't win a war in a month or two?  Tide turns a bit or there are setback?  Time to pull the plug.  My interest is elsewhere.  

This was always going to be a hard slog.  

Was Afghanistan seen as a Jihadist country before the USSR and USA decided to have a proxy war there?

The only winners with the west supplying arms seem to be the weapons manufacturers.  

Like I said I have pretty much been anti war since being an adult, so war is never something that I am in favor of.  The idea that this is "typical americanism" as didn't win in a month or two is a joke.  Typical americanism is overfunding and overstaying any conflict to the absolute breaking point with the idea that we are serving american strategic interests and geo-political stability or even laughably the concept of good vs evil, which has got us nowhere. I'm unsure that any of our forays in my 40 year life span have done a lot for global stability, if anything it has usually caused the opposite.

  Why wouldn't typical Americans begin to question if this is going to turn into another 20 year money sink.  I will admit that at the beginning of this conflict I was thinking that here we are with a just cause for once, how much of that was influenced by print and social media I can't calculate.  I do know that as the situation has escalated I have asked myself what the difference is between Iraq, Afghanistan and Ukraine when it comes to US involvement...I'm not sure there is any.

The people bearing the brunt of the financial woes in america are the poor and working class.  Obviously Ukrainians have it much worse with war at their actual doors. Global food instability that will damage former US Soviet playgrounds like afghanistan will affect us to a much lower level, except for the rising costs of groceries and gas that the uneducated rabble care so much about.

Yes, I was talking about media moving on to other things, which is what is happening as we speak.  

1. Afghanistan is a radicalized country, fighting against the West and Christianity.  Whether the Soviet and US wars created that or accentuated it is a bigger argument.  But I can't see any scenario where Ukraine, which has been trying to westernize against the yoke of Russia, would suddenly radicalize against the west.

2. The cause is the same today as it was in February.  What is changing for you?  Is it gas prices, grain prices?  Is it suddenly that you think we can't afford it?  Affording it is a red herring.  Everything we do, we borrow.  

The difference between Iraq and Ukraine is completely different. 
A) Iraq was waged for two reasons: 1. Access to oil 2. Making the mid east safe for Israel. 
Ukraine is the front line against a quasi-Fascist state that has been slowly trying to expand its economic and military power through wars of aggression in Chechnya, Georgia and now Ukraine.  Putin must be checked. 
C) We invaded Iraq to overthrow the existing gov't and tried to fight a war in their own territory.  For Ukraine, we are supporting young liberal democracy that seeks to protect its own freedom and right to self determination.
D) Our troops aren't on the ground in Ukraine.  They were in Iraq. 

The difference between Iraq and Ukraine could not be any more stark.  I honestly don't know how you can compare the two.  The only commonality is that they both cost money, but I'm pretty sure if you add up the costs, Iraq will be just a touch higher.  

I've been thinking about this for a couple days since you posted the questions about what has changed, because I want to give a genuine answer. My chief concern is what this conflict is doing globally.  I'm not concerned of the $40 bn or so spent directly so far.  I am more concerned about if the western economy can handle this on top of the other crisis that we can't seem to manage currently.  $5 a gallon gas and the rapid increase in prices due to the increased cost of shipping, increased price of fertilizer, speculation of a worldwide grain shortage etc.  It does not appear that there is an end in sight for the ever increasing cost of living.  How long until this creates more discord in our country and other western countries, that is if it isn't already having that effect?  Sure part of the current problem is that the increasing profits especially for energy and shipping companies are much higher than what should they should be assuming that the only costs being passed along are based on the cost of a barrel of oil, but what does that mean for the majority of americans and western families making less than 6 figures a year?  The rapid rise in prices and inflation, though already escalating due to covid and "supply chain bottlenecks" has gotten out of control since the war and the sanctions started. This is the economic side of things I am worried about.  Not to mention that the worse these economic woes are the more chance the american facist right will sweep back into power BIGLY.

As far as what is happening in terms of the war.  Well millions have fled all over Europe and that is obviously not a stabilizing thing.  As I said in a previous post, what good does prolonging a war that Russia may ultimately win or end in a stalemate really do for anyone including Ukrainians?  Lets say Ukraine wins, pushes Russia back and reclaims Crimea.  What incentive does Vladimir and the Russian state have to continue playing ball with the international order?  None.  Which will inevitably lead to stronger ties with China, who are also supposedly enemies of the american people.  If Russia fights to the last Ukranian and demolishes Ukraine, what does a completely destabilized Ukraine with a fringe of quasi Neo-Nazi sympathizers that now have training from Nato and US special forces mean?  Blow back? Nah that has never happened to us before.   What about all of the American White Supremacists that are Volunteering for Ukraine?  Neither of these things is russian Propaganda, the current DHS is concerned about homegrown supremacists travelling to Ukraine and getting battlefield experience, and recently within the last few years a stipulation of us aiding Ukraine was that weapons and training would not go to known Ukrainian Neo Nazi groups like C14(stands for: we must secure the existence of our people and a future for White children) and Azov.  Why else would members of the house of representatives have wrote a letter to the department of state with concern to anti semitism in Poland and Ukraine.  Now obviously you are thinking that I have bought the Russian propaganda, well no I have absolutely no illusion that the Ukraine is full of a majortiy of Nazis. Heck I understand a lot of the looking the other way as some of these groups provided the necessary force for Maidan revolution. I am worried that depending how things go the minority of neo nazi nationalists could become a significant regional or global problem, and any entrance into nato should probably require a purging of these influences.  And of course I have to add the disclaimer, the presence of small groups of  neo-nazis does not justify invading a sovereign country, if it did someone would have had grounds to war with us long ago.

 
Environmental concerns:  With the rising price of everything and the rising price of fuel this has probably shot any chance at a sustainable future.  Though it was gonna be a hard sell to begin with I am thinking the push for renewables and EVs is going to be crushed.  The high price of gas currently has public opinion turning towards the drill baby drill line all the world over.  Public opinion of kitchen table politics is currently bring the prices down. While a lot of people in the US and Canada will blame Biden and Trudeau I understand that this is a global issue that is exacerbated by OPEC+ and the oil companies themselves putting profits, stock buybacks, etc ahead of the needs of common people.  How are people that are having to choose between gas and groceries supposed to pay the average cost of 50k for an EV?  And EVs alone won't solve the problem as we will need infrastructure and non fossil fuel power generating sources.  Take public transit? In our cities and rural areas, BBB better hurry up.

Escalation: what needs to be said, Russia has Nukes and may be willing to use them, and their overstepping in Ukraine is a wet dream for the Hawks and Neo-Cons in DC.

Moral:  We are in a society that is currently grappling with gun violence of which one side says that more guns and good guys with guns is the answer and the otherside says no guns is the answer, Yet when it comes to sending big guns overseas with little oversight as to where they will all end up in a country that has a history of corruption, both sides seem to be overwhelmingly on board with the fact that more "good guys" with guns is the answer.  

Finally I am burned out on my countries endless need to go to war, sell weapons and take sides in proxy conflicts.  How can we be surprised that we are a society growing more violently when that seems to be our main cultural export  I am also wary of media when it comes to reporting on wars and am not completely sure that we are being sold the whole truth, WMDs anyone.  All of the rosy reporting on Afghanistan over 18 years etc.  

As to why I am comparing this to Iraq and Afghanistan it is because those were two huge foreign policy blunders that did not lead to the world being a more stable and safer place, while also taking up most of my adult life, and there is every reason based on the last 3 decades of US War policy that this could end up just the same.

So that is why I would like to see a push for a diplomatic solution.  End this before it escalates.  I'm not sure what that entails?  Give the separatists their own sovereignty as it doesn't seem like they want to be a part of Ukraine nor does it seem as if Ukraine wants them around.  If neither side is willing to budge what red line needs to be crossed before another Nato country joins the fray?  Again assuming Ukraine drives russia back with it's head between it's legs, who pays for rebuilding Ukraine? Russia? not likely.  The IMF?  Would Ukraine have sovereignty if they made a deal with that behemoth?    Do we really believe this doesn't have the possibility of escalating into a world war or a nuclear war?  Can the case be made that Ukraine can win everything, with weapons support alone?

mrussel1

I find it's interesting that we think we're making some sort of sacrifice with $5 gallon gas and chicken wing prices on the rise, while there are human beings literally fighting for their lives and their freedoms.  I don't actually have much sympathy for that perspective.  Ukraine isn't asking for blood or real sacrifices.  They asked for weapons to fight their own battles.  If we cut off the source of weapons, will that send them to the negotiation table?  Maybe, but why would Russia negotiate if they know the supply line is off?  They will do what they tried to do originally, take Kyiv, kill the senior gov't officials and install a puppet gov't where Ukraine becomes a vassal state. 

Now you have Russia controlling the output of 20% of the high grade wheat in the world.  They also are on the doorsteps of Poland, Romania, Slovakia and Moldova. And they have shown through Georgia, Chechnya, and now Ukraine that they are willing to invade other countries and create puppet states. 

We have a country willing to fight its battle and fight for its right to self determination, but apparently it's taking too long.  It's been four whole months.  Maybe we should give them the Sudetenland and declare that we have "Peace in our Times". 

And one more thing, the Azov battalion is about 2600 men (at the start of the war).  That makes up less than 1/2 of 1% of the Ukrainian army.  I'm pretty sure we have more Nazis than that in our army.   

static111

mrussel1 said:

I find it's interesting that we think we're making some sort of sacrifice with $5 gallon gas and chicken wing prices on the rise, while there are human beings literally fighting for their lives and their freedoms.  I don't actually have much sympathy for that perspective.  Ukraine isn't asking for blood or real sacrifices.  They asked for weapons to fight their own battles.  If we cut off the source of weapons, will that send them to the negotiation table?  Maybe, but why would Russia negotiate if they know the supply line is off?  They will do what they tried to do originally, take Kyiv, kill the senior gov't officials and install a puppet gov't where Ukraine becomes a vassal state. 

Now you have Russia controlling the output of 20% of the high grade wheat in the world.  They also are on the doorsteps of Poland, Romania, Slovakia and Moldova. And they have shown through Georgia, Chechnya, and now Ukraine that they are willing to invade other countries and create puppet states. 

We have a country willing to fight its battle and fight for its right to self determination, but apparently it's taking too long.  It's been four whole months.  Maybe we should give them the Sudetenland and declare that we have "Peace in our Times". 

And one more thing, the Azov battalion is about 2600 men (at the start of the war).  That makes up less than 1/2 of 1% of the Ukrainian army.  I'm pretty sure we have more Nazis than that in our army.   

I don't think people feel they are making a sacrifice due to gas and chicken wings, I think they are feeling the crunch even more after an already bad 3 years.

Do you think the global economy can weather the additional crunch that this war is causing? 

Is there not a risk of escalating this conflict to a nuclear or world war?

What long term costs are acceptable? 

Do you think the exacerbation of rising energy costs is good in the long term from an environmental perspective if it sways public opinion to being on the side of drilling for and burning more fossil fuels in a quest for cheaper fuel?

You seem to think 4 months and high gas prices and grocery bills is whining, so what would be the acceptable number, 12 months? 5 years? 10 years? $10 a gallon $20 chicken wings? when it equals The total cost of the Iraq and Afghanistan war chest? Are you concerned at all that this becomes another endless conflict?  How about actual poor people at home and abroad, can we help the people that are having trouble paying their rent and getting gas and groceries or is that just the sacrifice that they have to make?

I respect your opinions on these matters.  I feel like the whole narrative currently is that Ukraine is right and therefore this is a just and winnable conflict.  In fact I believe that Ukraine is right and that their side is just, I'm not sure if this is 'winnable', I'm not sure what winning looks like, driving Russia to pre 2014 annexation borders ?  The longer it goes on the more Ukraine gets destroyed and the harder it will be to build back.  What happens to the separatists if Ukraine wins, do they all get killed, put on a bus to russia, or allowed to live out their days?  War is a mess even when one side is justified, but at what point is it enough?  When Kyiv is taken?  When there is a forever  battle at the current russian line?   At what point is it acceptable for the west to step in with their own militaries?

mrussel1

1. The global economy has weathered far, far worse situations than this.  Both world wars, Great Depression, recession, all of those things make this look like a nit comparatively.  This isn't even a speck of concern for me.  

2. No, I don't think this will escalate.  The concept of MAD still is in place here.  Russia isn't going to launch nuclear strikes against the West because of we are sending arms to Ukraine.  We armed Afghanistan, they armed the Viet Cong and that didn't esclaate.  

3. Environment - I don't know how we prioritize moving to a green economy rather than drilling more and sacrifice real lives, the lives of Ukrainians.  That doesn't compute for me.  These are real men, women and children that are displaced and murdered.  I don't care about an extra year of drilling comparatively.  I also think that's a false choice.  There are plenty of fossil fuel rigs in place.  OPEC + is deliberately withholding oil from the market.  

4.  There is no 'max time' for Ukraine's fight.  They should fight until they can't win.  Winning is defined by stopping the invasion.  Now what does that really mean?  It could mean a negotiated peace where some eastern Oblasts are ceded.  Russia has had effective control of Crimea since 2014 anyway.  But the key is that Ukraine must negotiate from a position of strength.  That means the Russians know Ukraine can continue to fight.  If they cannot continue to fight, then the Russians won't negotiate.  They also cant' lose access to Dnieper River in the SE oblasts.  That will cut Kiev from the Black Sea.  Cannot happen.  Russia would have an economic stranglehold on them.  

static111

mrussel1 said:

1. The global economy has weathered far, far worse situations than this.  Both world wars, Great Depression, recession, all of those things make this look like a nit comparatively.  This isn't even a speck of concern for me.  

2. No, I don't think this will escalate.  The concept of MAD still is in place here.  Russia isn't going to launch nuclear strikes against the West because of we are sending arms to Ukraine.  We armed Afghanistan, they armed the Viet Cong and that didn't esclaate.  

3. Environment - I don't know how we prioritize moving to a green economy rather than drilling more and sacrifice real lives, the lives of Ukrainians.  That doesn't compute for me.  These are real men, women and children that are displaced and murdered.  I don't care about an extra year of drilling comparatively.  I also think that's a false choice.  There are plenty of fossil fuel rigs in place.  OPEC + is deliberately withholding oil from the market.  

4.  There is no 'max time' for Ukraine's fight.  They should fight until they can't win.  Winning is defined by stopping the invasion.  Now what does that really mean?  It could mean a negotiated peace where some eastern Oblasts are ceded.  Russia has had effective control of Crimea since 2014 anyway.  But the key is that Ukraine must negotiate from a position of strength.  That means the Russians know Ukraine can continue to fight.  If they cannot continue to fight, then the Russians won't negotiate.  They also cant' lose access to Dnieper River in the SE oblasts.  That will cut Kiev from the Black Sea.  Cannot happen.  Russia would have an economic stranglehold on them.  

Thanks for your replies.  It is a hard subject to even have an honest conversation on these days.  The fact that MAD is even a concept is just chilling and I have less faith that the Neo Cons and ex KGB wouldn't be willing to risk it all to satisfy their egos.  For the record I would love to see a free Ukraine and for there to be a stop to the killing, I just am not as sure as you that this doesn't spill over into an escalated conflict.  At the same time I really don't want to see this dragging out like afghanistan, imagine the horror that would be caused if we provided long term material and financial support and then in '24 or '28 a new administration pulled our funding and skidaddled.  That is another case where I think a negotiated settlement would be preferred.  You are definitely correct that Ukraine needs to negotiate from a position of strength if they choose to negotiate at all.  Obviously at this point we can't predict the future so we just have to let it play out.

Halifax2TheMax

I’ve got thoughts, not that you’ll want to read them, but not tonight. I hear your collective groans. 

gimmesometruth27

what is the difference between a ukranian and a republican?



a ukranian will defend their capitol.

Halifax2TheMax

gimmesometruth27 said:

what is the difference between a ukranian and a republican?



a ukranian will defend their capitol.

Beers and shots on me. You 

Merkin Baller

gimmesometruth27 said:

what is the difference between a ukranian and a republican?



a ukranian will defend their capitol.

Perfect. 

static111

Halifax2TheMax said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

what is the difference between a ukranian and a republican?



a ukranian will defend their capitol.

Beers and shots on me. You 

lol

static111

Halifax2TheMax said:

I’ve got thoughts, not that you’ll want to read them, but not tonight. I hear your collective groans. 

I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts

Bentleyspop

gimmesometruth27 said:

what is the difference between a ukranian and a republican?



a ukranian will defend their capitol.

Halifax2TheMax

mrussel1 said:

1. The global economy has weathered far, far worse situations than this.  Both world wars, Great Depression, recession, all of those things make this look like a nit comparatively.  This isn't even a speck of concern for me.  While there have been worse economic times and we have more tools at our disposal, this cerftainly has capacity to become much worse, particularly for poorer nations. High fuel/food prices, climate change impacts on food production and living conditions can lead to mass migration which leads to conflict and instability. The US is not immune to this, whether from the southern border or internally (see California drought, Colorado River Basin, Great Salt Lake, Miami, etc.).

2. No, I don't think this will escalate.  The concept of MAD still is in place here.  Russia isn't going to launch nuclear strikes against the West because of we are sending arms to Ukraine.  We armed Afghanistan, they armed the Viet Cong and that didn't esclaate.  Vietnam certainly did escalate with the secret wars in Cambodia and Laos, both with bombing and boots on the ground and kept secret from the American public. This was done to prevent those arms that Moscow was supplying. Also, you had US and western government involvement in a genocide campaign in Indonesia, primarily directed at purging communists from all facets of life, among others. The risk of the war in Ukraine spilling over to other bordering states is a legitimate concern, particular if the bordering state is a NATO member. I don't see Moscow going nuclear.

3. Environment - I don't know how we prioritize moving to a green economy rather than drilling more and sacrifice real lives, the lives of Ukrainians.  That doesn't compute for me.  These are real men, women and children that are displaced and murdered.  I don't care about an extra year of drilling comparatively.  I also think that's a false choice.  There are plenty of fossil fuel rigs in place.  OPEC + is deliberately withholding oil from the market.  We should continue to move toward a less carbon based energy future but this will take time. The US oil industry is sitting on plenty of capped wells and leases. I read that for oil companies to pump more, open or tap wells, oil needs to be above $48 a barrel. Its way over that and they have record profits. The oil industry (US, British, Dutch) could do something but they're prioritizing share holders over the American people and their respective citizens. I do find it interesting that most voters are looking for Brandon to do something but always complain about the size and roll of government. Their anger would be better channeled toward the corporate profit takers.

4.  There is no 'max time' for Ukraine's fight.  They should fight until they can't win.  Winning is defined by stopping the invasion.  Now what does that really mean?  It could mean a negotiated peace where some eastern Oblasts are ceded.  Russia has had effective control of Crimea since 2014 anyway.  But the key is that Ukraine must negotiate from a position of strength.  That means the Russians know Ukraine can continue to fight.  If they cannot continue to fight, then the Russians won't negotiate.  They also cant' lose access to Dnieper River in the SE oblasts.  That will cut Kiev from the Black Sea.  Cannot happen.  Russia would have an economic stranglehold on them.  Pretty much agree with this. Ukraine decides when enough is enough. The West continues to support them with arms and training until then. To allow otherwise emboldens putin on the ritz to seize more territory. He's on record as envisioning himself as a Peter the Great with a desire for more empire.  Russia may just go home after putin is out of the way, either from his own reported illness or is taken out. His oligarchs are not happy. Its a matter of time and time, currently is on Ukraine's side. The winter months will be 

telling. 

 above in bold. I agree with much of what mrussel says regarding the war in Ukraine. However, see above