Things are not as simple as you'd want them to be.
Why do we have a shared sense of morality? Do we? What do you think about abortion? Let's compare your answer with some other answers. Furthermore, whatever sense of shared morality we have, if we have one, does not mean god created man at all. That's the problem I have with intelligent design. Jump straight to god whenever it fits. What about other factors? Environment, fear... Or of course... Religious doctrine! They've been known to impose their will on people, just open a history book Without any proof whatsoever that their god even exists.
Evolution has nothing to do with society. Nothing.
You may well be right, I can accept that morals may well be entirely taught. certainly, in other cultures people used to be taught that human sacrifice or cannibalism was ok and they seemed to accept it. I am glad that you do not agree with Haekel that 'politics is applied biology', I can see that you actively resist getting your morals from evolution but I dont share your optimism that there is no connection between evolution and society. If you tell someone all there life that they are just animals they will act like animals, as the bloodhound gang put so eloquently: 'you and me baby aint nothing but mammals so lets do it like they do on the discovery channel'
Your not born knowing that murder is wrong, your taught and you learn that murder is wrong when your growing up. Your born knowing that murder is a natural thing to do. Animal instinct is present in all forms of life including Humans. If something is a threat to you you will protect yourself. Kill or be kill.
I beg to differ really.
When faced with death upon ones self of course people will defend themselves. Thats not murder though. That also doesn't mean we arent naturally born with certain morals right off the bat. Of course we are laced with stuff that we cant help but naturally do. I dont think things like "murder" "raping" or anything of that nature has to be taught. No one ever set me down and told me stuff like that was wrong.. I sure as hell dont hurt anyone. Some things do come naturally. We are not all the pig headed animals that people like to think we are.
Im sorry but whens the last time you saw a monkey with a star bucks latte and an accounting career? Humans - 1 Animals - 0
You may well be right, I can accept that morals may well be entirely taught. certainly, in other cultures people used to be taught that human sacrifice or cannibalism was ok and they seemed to accept it. I am glad that you do not agree with Haekel that 'politics is applied biology', I can see that you actively resist getting your morals from evolution but I dont share your optimism that there is no connection between evolution and society. If you tell someone all there life that they are just animals they will act like animals, as the bloodhound gang put so eloquently: 'you and me baby aint nothing but mammals so lets do it like they do on the discovery channel'
Indeed, human sacrifice was indeed acceptable in certain cultures, religious cultures, for example
I do not actively resis getting my morals from evolution at all. I do feel we are just one of the species here on earth, we happen to be the dominant species and we have the capability to think about things... Just read some of the Greek philosophers. Some even influenced christian theology.
So I do basically believe we are just animals, but I don't act like an animal. I guess your theory is wrong.
I dont think things like "murder" "raping" or anything of that nature has to be taught. No one ever set me down and told me stuff like that was wrong.. I sure as hell dont hurt anyone.
No? You were never taught hurting other kids was wrong? Stealing was wrong?
You never saw the reactions of your parents when a girl was raped, or someone was murdered?
You never saw TV shows suggest murder and rape are wrong?
It's amazing what we pick up.
I personally think it's a bit of both, nature and nurture.
No? You were never taught hurting other kids was wrong? Stealing was wrong?
You never saw the reactions of your parents when a girl was raped, or someone was murdered?
You never saw TV shows suggest murder and rape are wrong?
It's amazing what we pick up.
I personally think it's a bit of both, nature and nurture.
I'm not saying its not in society .. or we aren't by products of it but i also don't think thats the reason why we deem murder wrong. Basically what im saying is... if we both lived in a society where murder was smiled upon..i think we would still feel that its wrong because its within ourselves to know that its not right. You are right though its probably a bit of both.
It all basically comes down to none of us know squat. .which is more frustrating than it is reassuring i'm noticing
Vedward, ive always looked up to him. He doesn't go around claiming he understand everything like alot of popular musicians/actors ect do.Ive always found comfort ed's indecisiveness. Mostly because thats how i feel.. and lets face it: confusion loves company
Oh come on Cate, why such pettiness?
Is it so hard to agree with a believer on even such a minor point? After a long battle, honourable opponents can at least agree on something that does not give either side a victory. Intelligent Design Godfather Philip Johnson, and his arch-Darwinist opponent Michael Ruse respect one another, have the humility to concede a point when it is lost, and are able to be friends. It felt good, after such a long battle (mostly with Collin), to have a moment of agreement and now you've gone and spoiled it. Was I presumtious to conclude that a declared atheist like yourself does not believe in Angels? I think not, unless that is, you dont quite understand what atheism is. But have it your way, if you dont want to be in the honourable opponents club I will delete your name and repost.
no tim i have no fucking idea that to be considered an atheist i have think that god is non existant. that theres no possiblity that he exists. :rolleyes:
right now i dont care if i spoiled your warm and fuzzy moment or not. you mentioned me in a post, i simply questioned you putting me together with something ive never mentioned. was it petty of me? was it unchristian of me? again i dont care. whether i believe in angels or not is irrelevant. you assumed, not me. therefore youre in the wrong, not me.
agree with you on a minor point? what exactly was the point?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
does anyone here know the only thing any of you have come remotely close to proving is that there is no proof one way or the other? If you believe it, just be happy you have something to believe in.
Indeed, human sacrifice was indeed acceptable in certain cultures, religious cultures, for example
I do not actively resis getting my morals from evolution at all. I do feel we are just one of the species here on earth, we happen to be the dominant species and we have the capability to think about things... Just read some of the Greek philosophers. Some even influenced christian theology.
So I do basically believe we are just animals, but I don't act like an animal. I guess your theory is wrong.
Seems to me you are contradicting yourself a bit here. You must see how 'survival of the fittest' can be used as a rather selfish and agressive rule for living, especially in buisness or politics. Many animals behave like this and many humans do too. Animals are willing to completely wipe out a variant species, as the grey squirrels have done to the red ones over here in England, just as hitler tried to do with the Jews. Animals are also happy to kill eachother to get a desired female, or to rape and kill for fun. There is a part of humans that wants to act like this too, we might call it an 'animal instinct' but many of us resist it, I think you do too.
Seems to me you are contradicting yourself a bit here. You must see how 'survival of the fittest' can be used as a rather selfish and agressive rule for living, especially in buisness or politics. Many animals behave like this and many humans do too. Animals are willing to completely wipe out a variant species, as the grey squirrels have done to the red ones over here in England, just as hitler tried to do with the Jews. Animals are also happy to kill eachother to get a desired female, or to rape and kill for fun. There is a part of humans that wants to act like this too, we might call it an 'animal instinct' but many of us resist it, I think you do too.
I'd rather be with an animal.
"I feel the same way about disco as I do about herpes." - Dr. Hunter S. Thompson, 1977
no tim i have no fucking idea that to be considered an atheist i have think that god is non existant. that theres no possiblity that he exists. :rolleyes:
right now i dont care if i spoiled your warm and fuzzy moment or not. you mentioned me in a post, i simply questioned you putting me together with something ive never mentioned. was it petty of me? was it unchristian of me? again i dont care. whether i believe in angels or not is irrelevant. you assumed, not me. therefore youre in the wrong, not me.
agree with you on a minor point? what exactly was the point?
Um. The point was no-God = no-sin, a point you had argued for against my mate slight. And if you really do believe in angels as an atheist, then I apologise. You were not being petty, you are just a bit confused.
Seems to me you are contradicting yourself a bit here. You must see how 'survival of the fittest' can be used as a rather selfish and agressive rule for living, especially in buisness or politics. Many animals behave like this and many humans do too. Animals are willing to completely wipe out a variant species, as the grey squirrels have done to the red ones over here in England, just as hitler tried to do with the Jews. Animals are also happy to kill eachother to get a desired female, or to rape and kill for fun. There is a part of humans that wants to act like this too, we might call it an 'animal instinct' but many of us resist it, I think you do too.
yes... ive seen chimpanzees kidnap another baby and murder it whilst the mother screamed for its return.
when it comes to humans i think that the so called survival of the fittest in business and politics is just an excuse for bad behaviour. its about taking and becoming the alpha. this of course is indicative of a society that prizes above all else the motto, he with the most, wins. or perhaps gordon gecko said it best in wall street: greed, for want of a better word, is good.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Um. The point was no-God = no-sin, a point you had argued for against my mate slight. And if you really do believe in angels as an atheist, then I apologise. You were not being petty, you are just a bit confused.
id hardly call it arguing. i stated my point which was questioned, i then clarified my position. that was it.
and seriously tim, i hadnt even noticed you agreed with me on the no sin/no God thing. i certainly wouldnt have been petty over such a thing as agreeance just to push your buttons. the issue i had with you and the only one i was addressing, was that you included me in something id never even mentioned. thats all.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
id hardly call it arguing. i stated my point which was questioned, i then clarified my position. that was it.
and seriously tim, i hadnt even noticed you agreed with me on the no sin/no God thing. i certainly wouldnt have been petty over such a thing as agreeance just to push your buttons. the issue i had with you and the only one i was addressing, was that you included me in something id never even mentioned. thats all.
When I say 'argue' I dont mean something negative. Philosophically 'argument' just means a piece of reasoning. Ok, if you really hadn't noticed that this was the point i was agreeing with you on (although it seems kind of clear on my post) then I withdraw my accusation of pettiness.
Seems to me you are contradicting yourself a bit here. You must see how 'survival of the fittest' can be used as a rather selfish and agressive rule for living, especially in buisness or politics. Many animals behave like this and many humans do too. Animals are willing to completely wipe out a variant species, as the grey squirrels have done to the red ones over here in England, just as hitler tried to do with the Jews. Animals are also happy to kill eachother to get a desired female, or to rape and kill for fun. There is a part of humans that wants to act like this too, we might call it an 'animal instinct' but many of us resist it, I think you do too.
I'm not contradicting myself. I can indeed see how "survival of the fittest" can be used as an excuse for selfish behaviour, and I can see how the Westboro baptist church can use the bible to justify their behaviour.
We all have an animal instinct, I believe this is true. Murder, rape, killing for fun etc. have been around for ages, though... it's as old as mankind itself. And you're right, you see this in the animal kingdom as well. I guess we must share a common ancestor or something, eh?
Don't you know any atheists in person? Do they hump your leg, rape people, kill and murder people, cut throats to get a better job? Or are they just normal people, like yourself, despite their beliefs that their father was a monkey?
For other example see: crusades, Spanish Inquisition, witch hunts in countless other countries...
I'm not contradicting myself. I can indeed see how "survival of the fittest" can be used as an excuse for selfish behaviour, and I can see how the Westboro baptist church can use the bible to justify their behaviour.
We all have an animal instinct, I believe this is true. Murder, rape, killing for fun etc. have been around for ages, though... it's as old as mankind itself. And you're right, you see this in the animal kingdom as well. I guess we must share a common ancestor or something, eh?
Don't you know any atheists in person? Do they hump your leg, rape people, kill and murder people, cut throats to get a better job? Or are they just normal people, like yourself, despite their beliefs that their father was a monkey?
Will you marry me?
"I feel the same way about disco as I do about herpes." - Dr. Hunter S. Thompson, 1977
When I say 'argue' I dont mean something negative. Philosophically 'argument' just means a piece of reasoning. Ok, if you really hadn't noticed that this was the point i was agreeing with you on (although it seems kind of clear on my post) then I withdraw my accusation of pettiness.
P.s. Just to clarify, do you believe in Angels?
i believe in a presence, an energy. i dont call it angels. so that'd be a no.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
great! you just set the evolution theory back thousands of years.
No worries. We've got that covered already: atavism (I can thank the Good Doctor for that one!), or in intelligent design terms "god's little mistakes."
great! you just set the evolution theory back thousands of years.
Oohh maybe Ed will write a new song about us and feature it on the new album "You don't have to be a Christian to be a Pearl Jam Fan". That would be awesome.
"I feel the same way about disco as I do about herpes." - Dr. Hunter S. Thompson, 1977
His Music Is All About Who You Are As A Person And How We Perceived The World Around Us.
what do you think religion is? it's about who you are as a person and how you interact with the world around us...so I'd say it's fairly easy to compare ed's music and religion.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
I'm not contradicting myself. I can indeed see how "survival of the fittest" can be used as an excuse for selfish behaviour, and I can see how the Westboro baptist church can use the bible to justify their behaviour.
We all have an animal instinct, I believe this is true. Murder, rape, killing for fun etc. have been around for ages, though... it's as old as mankind itself. And you're right, you see this in the animal kingdom as well. I guess we must share a common ancestor or something, eh?
Don't you know any atheists in person? Do they hump your leg, rape people, kill and murder people, cut throats to get a better job? Or are they just normal people, like yourself, despite their beliefs that their father was a monkey?
For other example see: crusades, Spanish Inquisition, witch hunts in countless other countries...
Yes, most of my mates are atheists and they are not rapists or murderers, plus they dont usually hump my leg. I did not accuse you of any of these things either. Thats my point, we both actively resist the animal instincts that form the basis of evolutionary theory, we chose a different way. Im glad you agree that following 'survival of the fittest' is not a good rule for life and can justify immorality. I think this is what 'do the evolution' is about. The rather demented figure that sings it jusifies his actions saying 'its evolution baby' and he is being consistent with evolution, its just 'herd behaviour'. Interestingly, he also uses Christianity, 'here's my church, i sing in the choir' but here he is not being consistent, he is contradicting christianity, so he is a thief and a liar. Thats the difference, Hitler was being consistent with evolutionary thought when he decided that the 'fittest' should destroy the 'parasytical' races and that people with defective genes should not procreate, however he was being totally inconsistent with any teaching from the New testament.
i believe in a presence, an energy. i dont call it angels. so that'd be a no.
Ok Cate. Since you have made a statement of faith, are you willing to have your belief scrutinized in the same way that you have scrutinized mine?
Is your energy/presence made of atoms and molecules or is it supernatural?
Is it a thing, or does it have a personality?
Comments
You may well be right, I can accept that morals may well be entirely taught. certainly, in other cultures people used to be taught that human sacrifice or cannibalism was ok and they seemed to accept it. I am glad that you do not agree with Haekel that 'politics is applied biology', I can see that you actively resist getting your morals from evolution but I dont share your optimism that there is no connection between evolution and society. If you tell someone all there life that they are just animals they will act like animals, as the bloodhound gang put so eloquently: 'you and me baby aint nothing but mammals so lets do it like they do on the discovery channel'
I beg to differ really.
When faced with death upon ones self of course people will defend themselves. Thats not murder though. That also doesn't mean we arent naturally born with certain morals right off the bat. Of course we are laced with stuff that we cant help but naturally do. I dont think things like "murder" "raping" or anything of that nature has to be taught. No one ever set me down and told me stuff like that was wrong.. I sure as hell dont hurt anyone. Some things do come naturally. We are not all the pig headed animals that people like to think we are.
Im sorry but whens the last time you saw a monkey with a star bucks latte and an accounting career? Humans - 1 Animals - 0
Just sayin
Indeed, human sacrifice was indeed acceptable in certain cultures, religious cultures, for example
I do not actively resis getting my morals from evolution at all. I do feel we are just one of the species here on earth, we happen to be the dominant species and we have the capability to think about things... Just read some of the Greek philosophers. Some even influenced christian theology.
So I do basically believe we are just animals, but I don't act like an animal. I guess your theory is wrong.
naděje umírá poslední
No? You were never taught hurting other kids was wrong? Stealing was wrong?
You never saw the reactions of your parents when a girl was raped, or someone was murdered?
You never saw TV shows suggest murder and rape are wrong?
It's amazing what we pick up.
I personally think it's a bit of both, nature and nurture.
naděje umírá poslední
I'm not saying its not in society .. or we aren't by products of it but i also don't think thats the reason why we deem murder wrong. Basically what im saying is... if we both lived in a society where murder was smiled upon..i think we would still feel that its wrong because its within ourselves to know that its not right. You are right though its probably a bit of both.
It all basically comes down to none of us know squat. .which is more frustrating than it is reassuring i'm noticing
Vedward, ive always looked up to him. He doesn't go around claiming he understand everything like alot of popular musicians/actors ect do.Ive always found comfort ed's indecisiveness. Mostly because thats how i feel.. and lets face it: confusion loves company
I thought Eddie WAS God!!!!!
/sigh
currently worshiping at the altar of Eddie Vedder
no tim i have no fucking idea that to be considered an atheist i have think that god is non existant. that theres no possiblity that he exists. :rolleyes:
right now i dont care if i spoiled your warm and fuzzy moment or not. you mentioned me in a post, i simply questioned you putting me together with something ive never mentioned. was it petty of me? was it unchristian of me? again i dont care. whether i believe in angels or not is irrelevant. you assumed, not me. therefore youre in the wrong, not me.
agree with you on a minor point? what exactly was the point?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
You are completely right....
Thats what we are saying
For tomorrow we die...
XO
If we came from monkeys, then why are there still monkeys around?
and i wanna party with that guy who can turn water into wine.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Im sure if that guy exist.. he is definitely the life of the party
Seems to me you are contradicting yourself a bit here. You must see how 'survival of the fittest' can be used as a rather selfish and agressive rule for living, especially in buisness or politics. Many animals behave like this and many humans do too. Animals are willing to completely wipe out a variant species, as the grey squirrels have done to the red ones over here in England, just as hitler tried to do with the Jews. Animals are also happy to kill eachother to get a desired female, or to rape and kill for fun. There is a part of humans that wants to act like this too, we might call it an 'animal instinct' but many of us resist it, I think you do too.
Um. The point was no-God = no-sin, a point you had argued for against my mate slight. And if you really do believe in angels as an atheist, then I apologise. You were not being petty, you are just a bit confused.
yes... ive seen chimpanzees kidnap another baby and murder it whilst the mother screamed for its return.
when it comes to humans i think that the so called survival of the fittest in business and politics is just an excuse for bad behaviour. its about taking and becoming the alpha. this of course is indicative of a society that prizes above all else the motto, he with the most, wins. or perhaps gordon gecko said it best in wall street: greed, for want of a better word, is good.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
id hardly call it arguing. i stated my point which was questioned, i then clarified my position. that was it.
and seriously tim, i hadnt even noticed you agreed with me on the no sin/no God thing. i certainly wouldnt have been petty over such a thing as agreeance just to push your buttons. the issue i had with you and the only one i was addressing, was that you included me in something id never even mentioned. thats all.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
When I say 'argue' I dont mean something negative. Philosophically 'argument' just means a piece of reasoning. Ok, if you really hadn't noticed that this was the point i was agreeing with you on (although it seems kind of clear on my post) then I withdraw my accusation of pettiness.
P.s. Just to clarify, do you believe in Angels?
Can we just be pj fans and not worry about religion in the deal? I think Eddie would slap all of us for posting so much in this thread.
I'm not contradicting myself. I can indeed see how "survival of the fittest" can be used as an excuse for selfish behaviour, and I can see how the Westboro baptist church can use the bible to justify their behaviour.
We all have an animal instinct, I believe this is true. Murder, rape, killing for fun etc. have been around for ages, though... it's as old as mankind itself. And you're right, you see this in the animal kingdom as well. I guess we must share a common ancestor or something, eh?
Don't you know any atheists in person? Do they hump your leg, rape people, kill and murder people, cut throats to get a better job? Or are they just normal people, like yourself, despite their beliefs that their father was a monkey?
For other example see: crusades, Spanish Inquisition, witch hunts in countless other countries...
naděje umírá poslední
Will you marry me?
Are you female?
Either way, I will only really know if I want to marry you once I sniff your butt
naděje umírá poslední
great! you just set the evolution theory back thousands of years.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i believe in a presence, an energy. i dont call it angels. so that'd be a no.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
anyway, back on topic
No worries. We've got that covered already: atavism (I can thank the Good Doctor for that one!), or in intelligent design terms "god's little mistakes."
naděje umírá poslední
what do you think religion is? it's about who you are as a person and how you interact with the world around us...so I'd say it's fairly easy to compare ed's music and religion.
Yes, most of my mates are atheists and they are not rapists or murderers, plus they dont usually hump my leg. I did not accuse you of any of these things either. Thats my point, we both actively resist the animal instincts that form the basis of evolutionary theory, we chose a different way. Im glad you agree that following 'survival of the fittest' is not a good rule for life and can justify immorality. I think this is what 'do the evolution' is about. The rather demented figure that sings it jusifies his actions saying 'its evolution baby' and he is being consistent with evolution, its just 'herd behaviour'. Interestingly, he also uses Christianity, 'here's my church, i sing in the choir' but here he is not being consistent, he is contradicting christianity, so he is a thief and a liar. Thats the difference, Hitler was being consistent with evolutionary thought when he decided that the 'fittest' should destroy the 'parasytical' races and that people with defective genes should not procreate, however he was being totally inconsistent with any teaching from the New testament.
Ok Cate. Since you have made a statement of faith, are you willing to have your belief scrutinized in the same way that you have scrutinized mine?
Is your energy/presence made of atoms and molecules or is it supernatural?
Is it a thing, or does it have a personality?