i believe this thread has gone on long enough maybe?
I don't think its really any of our biz what ed believes. If theres one thing a person has in life is their mind.. i think dwelving into eds psych/religious beliefs, well its just not fair.. especially since he really cant defend himself and say his peace...
I get it but.. i dunno.. Just enjoy Yield because "given to fly" made ure entire body orgasm the first time u heard it :P Leave the religious bs by the way side.. i don't think pearl jam is about that at all ..
For instance, no matter who you are, and what you believe, murder is wrong.
If you believe that murder would be OK if it weren't for religion ... well, we just found one benefit of religion then, didn't we?
perhaps i should have said, the concept of sin is religious in context. to sin means to miss the mark. the mark being the perfection embodied in christ. this makes everyone a sinner, because as we all know no one could possibly come up to the perfection that is christ. this is why when one sins one must repent if one is to seek salvation. this is what i mean when i say without religion there would be no sin, not that there were would no morally reprehensible actions. murder is morally reprehensible. we all know that.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I may have missed this altogther but I think there is still sin. The sins that were before are still as well as the arrogance that I always count as the biggest sin. That is the sin that we do when in church sometimes ourselves (although I have checked myself for this constantly so I don't do this; but I may have before).
We are only forgiven if we say to God that we are sorry and ask for His help in changing our behavior. Sin is still sin. And yes, we can all be forgiven but it is not a disclaimer that says,"ok, do what you want; you now have God".
Sorry if I missed the point you were making, I just had to point that out.
Are you a believer?
I'm not a believer.
A sin is a religious concept. That's my point.
slightofjeff, of course there are actions that are wrong regardless of your creed, I think murder is one of them. I don't believe it's a sin, though. Because a sin is a biblical concept, it's against the rules of god, who I don't believe in.
Cate really explained it already in her post, though.
Yes. I read it, the same old passing off information losing adaptions as 'evolution in practice'. the same old claims of transitional fossils that are not transitional at all. The same old claims that evolution is a 'fact', not a theory, and the same old misrepresentations of creationism.
Have you read 'Darwin on Trial' by Philip E. Johnson?
I will try to find a copy of Darwin on Trial.
Do you discard everything evolutionist scientists say?
after observing shedloads of mutations on the genetic level, none have been observed to add anything, all either subtract or damage the existing information. Sometimes this is relatively harmless, once in a while it is usefull, mostly it is destructive.
God put a rainbow in the sky as a promise that he would 'never flood the world again'. If the 'great flood' was just a local flood, he is a liar. We got some serious local flood over here in England last year, not to mention Bangladesh and china. It only makes sense if it was truly global. Why would noah have to make a boat for all kinds of animals if it was local? couldnt they have just legged it? they had 100 years warning. It was global in the Bible, and the sedimentary layers confirm that it was global since they are found accross the globe.
God said he would never destroy every living thing again or curse the ground.
No I do not discard everything darwinists say, I listen intently, but I disagree with them about the theory, I think it is unsupported and based on philosophical naturalism alone. This is demonstrated in Darwin on Trial, this conversation will be a lot more interesting after you have read it. I have read these links. I will try to find the peices of research cited as examples of information generation. For anyone who likes reading links and wants to see some for my side of the argument, here you go:
slightofjeff, of course there are actions that are wrong regardless of your creed, I think murder is one of them. I don't believe it's a sin, though. Because a sin is a biblical concept, it's against the rules of god, who I don't believe in.
Cate really explained it already in her post, though.
Here is a first. Collin, Cate, and Tim all agree on something! Ed asked the question (if there were no angels would there be no sin?) Tim, Cate, and Collin say: Yes!! there would indeed be no sin Ed, dont want to stop you before you begin, next question?
Here is a first. Collin, Cate, and Tim all agree on something! Ed asked the question (if there were no angels would there be no sin?) Tim, Cate, and Collin say: Yes!! there would indeed be no sin Ed, dont want to stop you before you begin, next question?
where did i mention angels?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
"And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done."
Yeah but knowing murder is wrong is a natural instinct.. has nothing to do with any form of "god'
I was born knowing that murder is wrong.. its common sense people .. not freaking celestial
Well, that's kind of my point. Sin exists with or without religion.
But, to take this another direction, just for fun: Is knowing that murder is wrong really a natural instinct? Animals kill each other all the time. In fact, the "natural instinct" often seems to be to kill, or be killed.
So if humans are just animals, evolved from other animals, how is it that we are born knowing that murder is wrong?
I'm not saying I know the answer to this question. It's just food for thought, really.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
Well, that's kind of my point. Sin exists with or without religion.
But, to take this another direction, just for fun: Is knowing that murder is wrong really a natural instinct? Animals kill each other all the time. In fact, the "natural instinct" often seems to be to kill, or be killed.
So if humans are just animals, evolved from other animals, how is it that we are born knowing that murder is wrong?
I'm not saying I know the answer to this question. It's just food for thought, really.
I could be wrong, and I'm new to this discussion, but what I think cate was saying is that the concept of 'sin' exists purely in a religious context.
What right or wrong doesn't come into it. Murder is a sin (if you believe in God), but it's also wrong in a moral and social sense. Nothing to do with religion.
Gluttony is a sin...but not necessarily seen as wrong in the same way.
I could be wrong, and I'm new to this discussion, but what I think cate was saying is that the concept of 'sin' exists purely in a religious context.
What right or wrong doesn't come into it. Murder is a sin (if you believe in God), but it's also wrong in a moral and social sense. Nothing to do with religion.
Gluttony is a sin...but not necessarily seen as wrong in the same way.
Oh come on Cate, why such pettiness?
Is it so hard to agree with a believer on even such a minor point? After a long battle, honourable opponents can at least agree on something that does not give either side a victory. Intelligent Design Godfather Philip Johnson, and his arch-Darwinist opponent Michael Ruse respect one another, have the humility to concede a point when it is lost, and are able to be friends. It felt good, after such a long battle (mostly with Collin), to have a moment of agreement and now you've gone and spoiled it. Was I presumtious to conclude that a declared atheist like yourself does not believe in Angels? I think not, unless that is, you dont quite understand what atheism is. But have it your way, if you dont want to be in the honourable opponents club I will delete your name and repost.
Here is a first. Collin and Tim agree on something! Ed asked the question (if there were no angels would there be no sin?) Tim and Collin say: Yes!! there would indeed be no sin Ed, dont want to stop you before you begin, next question?
Well, that's kind of my point. Sin exists with or without religion.
But, to take this another direction, just for fun: Is knowing that murder is wrong really a natural instinct? Animals kill each other all the time. In fact, the "natural instinct" often seems to be to kill, or be killed.
So if humans are just animals, evolved from other animals, how is it that we are born knowing that murder is wrong?
I'm not saying I know the answer to this question. It's just food for thought, really.
Your not born knowing that murder is wrong, your taught and you learn that murder is wrong when your growing up. Your born knowing that murder is a natural thing to do. Animal instinct is present in all forms of life including Humans. If something is a threat to you you will protect yourself. Kill or be kill.
Well, that's kind of my point. Sin exists with or without religion.
But, to take this another direction, just for fun: Is knowing that murder is wrong really a natural instinct? Animals kill each other all the time. In fact, the "natural instinct" often seems to be to kill, or be killed.
So if humans are just animals, evolved from other animals, how is it that we are born knowing that murder is wrong?
I'm not saying I know the answer to this question. It's just food for thought, really.
Hey Slight. You know I am a friendly critic but I think those evil heathens have a point here (thats a joke Cate). The disagreement is over the term 'sin' which refers specifically to breaking God's laws, hence no God-no sin. However your other point is a good one. Why, if we are just prodcts of evolution, do we have a shared sense of morality? If we did just evolve without any designer, there are no moral absolutes so ethics are purly subjective and nobody has the right to say 'murder is wrong' and impose this on a society. If you strictly follow evolutionary logic, someone could say 'murder is right' and for him it would be right, who are we to disagree? On this point evolutionists will say: 'anything is permissable so long as it does not harm others' but this does not stand up philosophically, our actions always affect others in the end, plus this rule is itself presented as an absolute, which contradicts the evolutionary view that morals are purely subjective constructs.
"And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done."
Oh yeah, never really noticed that, he doesn't mention water here as he does in Ch 9 Vs 11-17 (which is the verse about the rainbow) but it doesn't alter my point about the flood being global.
P.s, for anyone else who has been looking up Collin's Bible Quote, its Genesis 8:21.
Your not born knowing that murder is wrong, your taught and you learn that murder is wrong when your growing up. Your born knowing that murder is a natural thing to do. Animal instinct is present in all forms of life including Humans. If something is a threat to you you will protect yourself. Kill or be kill.
Drink or not, he's right. No one is born 'knowing' anything. These values are instilled in us by society and hopefully by our parents. It is nurture and not nature that teaches us right from wrong.
Hey Slight. You know I am a friendly critic but I think those evil heathens have a point here (thats a joke Cate). The disagreement is over the term 'sin' which refers specifically to breaking God's laws, hence no God-no sin. However your other point is a good one. Why, if we are just prodcts of evolution, do we have a shared sense of morality? If we did just evolve without any designer, there are no moral absolutes so ethics are purly subjective and nobody has the right to say 'murder is wrong' and impose this on a society. If you strictly follow evolutionary logic, someone could say 'murder is right' and for him it would be right, who are we to disagree? On this point evolutionists will say: 'anything is permissable so long as it does not harm others' but this does not stand up philosophically, our actions always affect others in the end, plus this rule is itself presented as an absolute, which contradicts the evolutionary view that morals are purely subjective constructs.
Things are not as simple as you'd want them to be.
Why do we have a shared sense of morality? Do we? What do you think about abortion? Let's compare your answer with some other answers. Furthermore, whatever sense of shared morality we have, if we have one, does not mean god created man at all. That's the problem I have with intelligent design. Jump straight to god whenever it fits. What about other factors? Environment, fear... Or of course... Religious doctrine! They've been known to impose their will on people, just open a history book Without any proof whatsoever that their god even exists.
Evolution has nothing to do with society. Nothing.
Drink or not, he's right. No one is born 'knowing' anything. These values are instilled in us by society and hopefully by our parents. It is nurture and not nature that teaches us right from wrong.
Maybe. its a difficult one to prove. Perhaps it is 100% nurture, but if we get our moral nurture from 'survival of the fittest' that cant be good right?
Well, that's kind of my point. Sin exists with or without religion.
But, to take this another direction, just for fun: Is knowing that murder is wrong really a natural instinct? Animals kill each other all the time. In fact, the "natural instinct" often seems to be to kill, or be killed.
So if humans are just animals, evolved from other animals, how is it that we are born knowing that murder is wrong?
I'm not saying I know the answer to this question. It's just food for thought, really.
Ill have to disagree. Not disagree persay but theres a lot of weight on the word "sin" I dont think that word really even exists without Christianity ect
Thats where i think we differ from the REAL animals... We may eat shit fuck and die like animals do but we are evolved for a reason.I think a human being is born with a certain set of personal standards... What that human is taught at a very young age after the fact.. is a whole other story..
The word "sin" means transgression of divine law. So for a person who doesn't believe in any god, sin is a non existent word. It doesn't even exist. Does this mean they lie, steal rape and murder? Of course not. So food for thought. Does sin even exist? I think "sin" is a scary label put on "wrong doings" to scare little kids into reading their bibles and behaving.
Maybe. its a difficult one to prove. Perhaps it is 100% nurture, but if we get our moral nurture from 'survival of the fittest' that cant be good right?
Society imposes our moral code upon us. For instance, some cultures practise vegetarianism, some cannibalism. None of these are percieved as 'wrong' in the culture in which they are practised. Any more than you think it's wrong to have a bacon sandwich for breakfast, which to some is abhorrent.
We learn these things at our parents feet.
Comments
Really?
I thought it was pretty interesting shit. People expressing their very different points of view without getting hostile.
It's what this message board SHOULD be about.
for the least they could possibly do
I don't think this is true.
For instance, no matter who you are, and what you believe, murder is wrong.
If you believe that murder would be OK if it weren't for religion ... well, we just found one benefit of religion then, didn't we?
for the least they could possibly do
I don't think its really any of our biz what ed believes. If theres one thing a person has in life is their mind.. i think dwelving into eds psych/religious beliefs, well its just not fair.. especially since he really cant defend himself and say his peace...
I get it but.. i dunno.. Just enjoy Yield because "given to fly" made ure entire body orgasm the first time u heard it :P Leave the religious bs by the way side.. i don't think pearl jam is about that at all ..
Yeah but knowing murder is wrong is a natural instinct.. has nothing to do with any form of "god'
I was born knowing that murder is wrong.. its common sense people .. not freaking celestial
perhaps i should have said, the concept of sin is religious in context. to sin means to miss the mark. the mark being the perfection embodied in christ. this makes everyone a sinner, because as we all know no one could possibly come up to the perfection that is christ. this is why when one sins one must repent if one is to seek salvation. this is what i mean when i say without religion there would be no sin, not that there were would no morally reprehensible actions. murder is morally reprehensible. we all know that.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I'm not a believer.
A sin is a religious concept. That's my point.
slightofjeff, of course there are actions that are wrong regardless of your creed, I think murder is one of them. I don't believe it's a sin, though. Because a sin is a biblical concept, it's against the rules of god, who I don't believe in.
Cate really explained it already in her post, though.
naděje umírá poslední
I will try to find a copy of Darwin on Trial.
Do you discard everything evolutionist scientists say?
naděje umírá poslední
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB102.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB904.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB910.html
naděje umírá poslední
God said he would never destroy every living thing again or curse the ground.
naděje umírá poslední
No I do not discard everything darwinists say, I listen intently, but I disagree with them about the theory, I think it is unsupported and based on philosophical naturalism alone. This is demonstrated in Darwin on Trial, this conversation will be a lot more interesting after you have read it. I have read these links. I will try to find the peices of research cited as examples of information generation. For anyone who likes reading links and wants to see some for my side of the argument, here you go:
http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/embryology_01.html
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/mutations.asp
Where in the Bible did God say this?
Here is a first. Collin, Cate, and Tim all agree on something! Ed asked the question (if there were no angels would there be no sin?) Tim, Cate, and Collin say: Yes!! there would indeed be no sin Ed, dont want to stop you before you begin, next question?
where did i mention angels?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Exodus 8:21
"And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done."
naděje umírá poslední
Well, that's kind of my point. Sin exists with or without religion.
But, to take this another direction, just for fun: Is knowing that murder is wrong really a natural instinct? Animals kill each other all the time. In fact, the "natural instinct" often seems to be to kill, or be killed.
So if humans are just animals, evolved from other animals, how is it that we are born knowing that murder is wrong?
I'm not saying I know the answer to this question. It's just food for thought, really.
for the least they could possibly do
What right or wrong doesn't come into it. Murder is a sin (if you believe in God), but it's also wrong in a moral and social sense. Nothing to do with religion.
Gluttony is a sin...but not necessarily seen as wrong in the same way.
Just my view, of course...
Wembley 18/06/07
If there was a reason, it was you.
O2 Arena 18/09/09
Exactly. I think that was Cate's point.
naděje umírá poslední
Oh come on Cate, why such pettiness?
Is it so hard to agree with a believer on even such a minor point? After a long battle, honourable opponents can at least agree on something that does not give either side a victory. Intelligent Design Godfather Philip Johnson, and his arch-Darwinist opponent Michael Ruse respect one another, have the humility to concede a point when it is lost, and are able to be friends. It felt good, after such a long battle (mostly with Collin), to have a moment of agreement and now you've gone and spoiled it. Was I presumtious to conclude that a declared atheist like yourself does not believe in Angels? I think not, unless that is, you dont quite understand what atheism is. But have it your way, if you dont want to be in the honourable opponents club I will delete your name and repost.
Your not born knowing that murder is wrong, your taught and you learn that murder is wrong when your growing up. Your born knowing that murder is a natural thing to do. Animal instinct is present in all forms of life including Humans. If something is a threat to you you will protect yourself. Kill or be kill.
Hey Slight. You know I am a friendly critic but I think those evil heathens have a point here (thats a joke Cate). The disagreement is over the term 'sin' which refers specifically to breaking God's laws, hence no God-no sin. However your other point is a good one. Why, if we are just prodcts of evolution, do we have a shared sense of morality? If we did just evolve without any designer, there are no moral absolutes so ethics are purly subjective and nobody has the right to say 'murder is wrong' and impose this on a society. If you strictly follow evolutionary logic, someone could say 'murder is right' and for him it would be right, who are we to disagree? On this point evolutionists will say: 'anything is permissable so long as it does not harm others' but this does not stand up philosophically, our actions always affect others in the end, plus this rule is itself presented as an absolute, which contradicts the evolutionary view that morals are purely subjective constructs.
Oh yeah, never really noticed that, he doesn't mention water here as he does in Ch 9 Vs 11-17 (which is the verse about the rainbow) but it doesn't alter my point about the flood being global.
P.s, for anyone else who has been looking up Collin's Bible Quote, its Genesis 8:21.
Wow. Remind me not to meet up for a drink.
Wembley 18/06/07
If there was a reason, it was you.
O2 Arena 18/09/09
His Music Is All About Who You Are As A Person And How We Perceived The World Around Us.
Pearl Jam Is A Rock Band Not A Cult!!!
I Think You Got It All Wrong From The Begining My Friend.
You Do Not Need Religion To Go On An Spiitual Journey.
If You Are A Sensitive And Intelligent Human Being You Should Know By Now That There Is No Such A Thing As God!!!
Francisca
Things are not as simple as you'd want them to be.
Why do we have a shared sense of morality? Do we? What do you think about abortion? Let's compare your answer with some other answers. Furthermore, whatever sense of shared morality we have, if we have one, does not mean god created man at all. That's the problem I have with intelligent design. Jump straight to god whenever it fits. What about other factors? Environment, fear... Or of course... Religious doctrine! They've been known to impose their will on people, just open a history book
Evolution has nothing to do with society. Nothing.
naděje umírá poslední
Ok so since I dont KNOW that there is no such thing as God, I must be stupid, insensitive, and subhuman right?
Maybe. its a difficult one to prove. Perhaps it is 100% nurture, but if we get our moral nurture from 'survival of the fittest' that cant be good right?
Ill have to disagree. Not disagree persay but theres a lot of weight on the word "sin" I dont think that word really even exists without Christianity ect
Thats where i think we differ from the REAL animals... We may eat shit fuck and die like animals do but we are evolved for a reason.I think a human being is born with a certain set of personal standards... What that human is taught at a very young age after the fact.. is a whole other story..
The word "sin" means transgression of divine law. So for a person who doesn't believe in any god, sin is a non existent word. It doesn't even exist. Does this mean they lie, steal rape and murder? Of course not. So food for thought. Does sin even exist? I think "sin" is a scary label put on "wrong doings" to scare little kids into reading their bibles and behaving.
We learn these things at our parents feet.
Wembley 18/06/07
If there was a reason, it was you.
O2 Arena 18/09/09