TC Hearts unite for Astroworld Fest Tragedy
Good Morning, y'all.
Thank you for stopping by today. Just wanted to say a few things, and then let the rest of you sort this out. This is a difficult subject to speak about; especially because we're all clamoring to hear updates about Pearl Jam's North American Tour 2022. That said--- THIS discussion IS NOT FOR YOU, if you have issues with regard to mindfulness and compassion, common sense, public safety for all ticket holders, as well as, accountability for Live Nation and TicketMaster venues.
A couple of weeks ago, I authored a response to a thread demanding "Where the hell is PJ....," which was shut down by administrators because people began to drag me for it, rather than understand the bigger picture. In other words. some people couldn't see the forest because they're staring too intensely at their unused ticket stubs.
This is what I said-- basically I asked the band to consider not touring during 2022 until superfans, promotors, and other associated affiliates correct some of the problematic issues regularly occurring at concert venues as of recent, as well as, explain to the band and management exactly how difficult it is for disabled people to attend large-scale festivals and venues, because they often lack reasonable assistance and accessibility to restrooms, nutrition and hydration, and, adequate staffing for possible serious medical needs.
Yesterday I read this article about, Astroworld Festival, where an undetermined number of people were trampled by an overwhelming crowd surge. About a dozen people lost their lives due to cardiac arrest or possible stroke, and, people were being pulled out of the frontline while unconscious and limp. The concert venue promoter is Live Nation; the same promoter that organizes and promotes all of Pearl Jam's shows. https://apple.news/AL5jl1BygRKWi1woDF2wg4g
So. Firstly, before we salt-and-pepper this conversation with opinion threads; let's all give a BIG SHOUT OUT to those folks who were in the crowd rescuing others, administering CPR, as well as, fighting for their families' lives. Also a BIG SHOUT OUT to the onsite EMT's and medical staff who became completely overwhelmed by serious medical conditions. Kids were lost in the crowd and trampled. Adults were fainting from compression and heat, and cardiac arrest. People had to be medically evacuated to hospitals, and yes, some of them died from their injuries. Without posting the entire article, because it's really upsetting -- if you've already read it -- then you can imagine how scary and insane the scene must have been. Total chaos amongst tens of thousands of people. Total nightmare scenario.
This isn't an "I told you so" moment. What this is-- it's confirmation of what I was speaking about as a disabled person, from a disabled persons' perspective-- and unfortunately, some of my familiar Ten Club associates witnessed me get dragged, here, on this platform, for those statements.
All I'm asking -- on behalf of everyone who wants to attend shows and has similar concerns -- is that Pearl Jam consider working with a combination of different promoters and venues, even if that means scaling back the size of the venue in order to reduce crowd control issues, prioritize and fully accommodate able-bodied and disabled persons in an equitable manner, as well as, reconsider policies that do not exactly enhance public safety, when in reality and practice, some of those policies significantly decrease public safety, E.g. diabetics that must bring food or medical supplies to an all-day, or multi-day venue. Disabled attendees should not have to spend $3K - $7K on a VIP package in order to receive prioritized accessibility to restrooms, transportation around the venue, hydration and nutrition, as well as, adequate and properly trained medical staffing; that is basically discrimination, according to the American's with Disabilities Act (ADA), if these basic needs and services are not easily and readily accessible for everyone regardless of disability or socioeconomic status. Period.
Always expect at least 5% - 20% of your audience to have some sort of disability. Expect about 5% to need special accommodations and caretakers at the venue. Unfortunately, for the remaining able-bodied folks, regrettable incidents like this occur out of sheer negligence for public safety when overwhelming scores of panicked people are in fear for their lives. And, rightfully so.
Live Nation now wishes to open an investigation, not unto themselves with regard to their own fault and negligence; but instead, they wish to open an investigation with regard to the crowd itself...... the victims. This is classic corporate blame-shifting and gaslighting of the public. And, I'm here to call it for what it is -- BULLSHIT.
Why am I bringing up 'disabled persons' as a baseline metric for how we proceed with organizing large-scale venues, as well as, the changes that need to be enacted or demanded from the public on everyone's behalf? Because if 'able-bodied' persons were trampled to death in a crowd of this magnitude, then just image how many partially disabled, or fully disabled people were defenselessly trapped within the surge.
Being that lawsuits will likely arise from this incident. I do believe it is an important enough issue for Curtis Management to consider. Especially, since there are two verifiied, back-to-back medical incidents that occurred during PJ's set at Sea Hear Now, as well as, Ohana Festival 2021. Proof of those incidents are on the bootlegs because Eddie stopped mid-song to check on the crowd.
Please. There are many of us out here who would like to attend a concert, especially a Pearl Jam show. But we cannot due to negligence issues with Live Nation, lack of real public safety and medical provisions (that do not undermine the promotor's bottom-line), as well as, equitable assistance and access to all venue services and facilities for able-bodied and fully-disabled attendees alike.
Maybe real change will be born out of this horrible tragedy. That's all we can hope for; as we wish for those folks and their families to know we, as Ten Club, share mindfulness, compassion, and empathy as you physically and psychologically recover from this unfortunate incident. TC HEARTS UNITE FOR ASTROWORLD FESTIVAL.
With love and respect for all involved.
Sincerely,
John Moch
Thank you for stopping by today. Just wanted to say a few things, and then let the rest of you sort this out. This is a difficult subject to speak about; especially because we're all clamoring to hear updates about Pearl Jam's North American Tour 2022. That said--- THIS discussion IS NOT FOR YOU, if you have issues with regard to mindfulness and compassion, common sense, public safety for all ticket holders, as well as, accountability for Live Nation and TicketMaster venues.
A couple of weeks ago, I authored a response to a thread demanding "Where the hell is PJ....," which was shut down by administrators because people began to drag me for it, rather than understand the bigger picture. In other words. some people couldn't see the forest because they're staring too intensely at their unused ticket stubs.
This is what I said-- basically I asked the band to consider not touring during 2022 until superfans, promotors, and other associated affiliates correct some of the problematic issues regularly occurring at concert venues as of recent, as well as, explain to the band and management exactly how difficult it is for disabled people to attend large-scale festivals and venues, because they often lack reasonable assistance and accessibility to restrooms, nutrition and hydration, and, adequate staffing for possible serious medical needs.
Yesterday I read this article about, Astroworld Festival, where an undetermined number of people were trampled by an overwhelming crowd surge. About a dozen people lost their lives due to cardiac arrest or possible stroke, and, people were being pulled out of the frontline while unconscious and limp. The concert venue promoter is Live Nation; the same promoter that organizes and promotes all of Pearl Jam's shows. https://apple.news/AL5jl1BygRKWi1woDF2wg4g
So. Firstly, before we salt-and-pepper this conversation with opinion threads; let's all give a BIG SHOUT OUT to those folks who were in the crowd rescuing others, administering CPR, as well as, fighting for their families' lives. Also a BIG SHOUT OUT to the onsite EMT's and medical staff who became completely overwhelmed by serious medical conditions. Kids were lost in the crowd and trampled. Adults were fainting from compression and heat, and cardiac arrest. People had to be medically evacuated to hospitals, and yes, some of them died from their injuries. Without posting the entire article, because it's really upsetting -- if you've already read it -- then you can imagine how scary and insane the scene must have been. Total chaos amongst tens of thousands of people. Total nightmare scenario.
This isn't an "I told you so" moment. What this is-- it's confirmation of what I was speaking about as a disabled person, from a disabled persons' perspective-- and unfortunately, some of my familiar Ten Club associates witnessed me get dragged, here, on this platform, for those statements.
All I'm asking -- on behalf of everyone who wants to attend shows and has similar concerns -- is that Pearl Jam consider working with a combination of different promoters and venues, even if that means scaling back the size of the venue in order to reduce crowd control issues, prioritize and fully accommodate able-bodied and disabled persons in an equitable manner, as well as, reconsider policies that do not exactly enhance public safety, when in reality and practice, some of those policies significantly decrease public safety, E.g. diabetics that must bring food or medical supplies to an all-day, or multi-day venue. Disabled attendees should not have to spend $3K - $7K on a VIP package in order to receive prioritized accessibility to restrooms, transportation around the venue, hydration and nutrition, as well as, adequate and properly trained medical staffing; that is basically discrimination, according to the American's with Disabilities Act (ADA), if these basic needs and services are not easily and readily accessible for everyone regardless of disability or socioeconomic status. Period.
Always expect at least 5% - 20% of your audience to have some sort of disability. Expect about 5% to need special accommodations and caretakers at the venue. Unfortunately, for the remaining able-bodied folks, regrettable incidents like this occur out of sheer negligence for public safety when overwhelming scores of panicked people are in fear for their lives. And, rightfully so.
Live Nation now wishes to open an investigation, not unto themselves with regard to their own fault and negligence; but instead, they wish to open an investigation with regard to the crowd itself...... the victims. This is classic corporate blame-shifting and gaslighting of the public. And, I'm here to call it for what it is -- BULLSHIT.
Why am I bringing up 'disabled persons' as a baseline metric for how we proceed with organizing large-scale venues, as well as, the changes that need to be enacted or demanded from the public on everyone's behalf? Because if 'able-bodied' persons were trampled to death in a crowd of this magnitude, then just image how many partially disabled, or fully disabled people were defenselessly trapped within the surge.
Being that lawsuits will likely arise from this incident. I do believe it is an important enough issue for Curtis Management to consider. Especially, since there are two verifiied, back-to-back medical incidents that occurred during PJ's set at Sea Hear Now, as well as, Ohana Festival 2021. Proof of those incidents are on the bootlegs because Eddie stopped mid-song to check on the crowd.
Please. There are many of us out here who would like to attend a concert, especially a Pearl Jam show. But we cannot due to negligence issues with Live Nation, lack of real public safety and medical provisions (that do not undermine the promotor's bottom-line), as well as, equitable assistance and access to all venue services and facilities for able-bodied and fully-disabled attendees alike.
Maybe real change will be born out of this horrible tragedy. That's all we can hope for; as we wish for those folks and their families to know we, as Ten Club, share mindfulness, compassion, and empathy as you physically and psychologically recover from this unfortunate incident. TC HEARTS UNITE FOR ASTROWORLD FESTIVAL.
With love and respect for all involved.
Sincerely,
John Moch
Temple_Of_Belltown
Post edited by jgmoch on
0
Comments
Gutted: London 2 2018, Sacramento 2022, Noblesville 2023
As it pertains to ADA concerns, I can only speak to the venues and music festivals I go to and observe. At Shaky Knees for example it appears that there are elevated platforms about midway back from the stage to allow those that need it the opportunity to use it to see the show. I would assume other festivals do this too? Then at some venues besides having ada seats, they even have a certain section blocked off close to the barricade on one side as well. I am curious your proposals for additional accommodations?
Cincinnati 2014
Greenville 2016
(Raleigh 2016)
Columbia 2016
I did not like the video of Scott earlier telling the crowd to beat up a kid who apparently tried to steal his shoe. He is going to face some scrutiny for sure.
But if anything, this reiterates the fact that there is risk in everything you do when you walk out of the house, get in a car, or see a show.
Indoor shows, even in the covid era, are by far safer than outdoor shows with large pits. Looking forward to a safe trio of indoor SoCal shows in early 2022.
1998 (2) - East Lansing & Auburn Hills; 2000 (2) - Tampa & Noblesville; 2003 (2) - Lexington & Noblesville; 2006 (1) - Cincinnati; 2007 (1) - Chicago (Lollapalooza); 2008 (Ed in Milwaukee); 2009 (1) - Chicago; 2010 (1) - Noblesville; 2013 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2016 (Temple of the Dog in Los Angeles); 2017 (Ed at Ohana in Dana Point);
2021 (3) - Dana Point I, II & III; 2022 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2025 - Southern U.S. Tour Please!
I know Marilyn Manson and a lot of the really aggressive metal acts during the 90's promoted violence at their shows; so I guess that aspect of it all (like the mosh pit or whatever) is sort of subjective. Even Nirvana and Hole shows were kind of rough up front. Soundgarden and Ministry was like being stuck in a human washing machine. I know when I wasn't disabled, I certainly participated in my fair share of crowd-surfing and moshing. Once witnessed Greenday provoke a fan surge at Walnut Creek Amphitheater, in Raleigh, NC, circa 1994 (Lollapalooza Fest), but nobody died at those events.
I agree. I don't think it's necessary for PJ to assist anyone with logistics. The issue is bigger than PJ; the issue falls on the promotors and fans. Promoters have to provide a measure of safety; and fans need to look out for one another.
Thanks for joining the conversation! Have a great day, LJCRF!
I was kind of hoping that PJ's demand, at this point, would change the narrative and give them more of a platform to initiate some changes. Because despite it all, they proved that regardless of monopolies; they have 'staying power.'
We are tackling two issues here -- two birds with one stone, so to speak. The reason I did that is because Perry Ferrel once wrote a lyric, "How you treat the weak is your true nature calling." Twenty percent of that crowd was more vulnerable than the other eighty percent. By addressing the needs of the most vulnerable, you automatically address the needs of everyone else. That's all.
Your last question provokes some thought; so let's see where we can start. Feel free to make suggestions or further amendments:
1. Mobility assistance -- Often times folks with MS or neurological issues cannot walk long distances to access facilities, or they have an unexpected flare-up of symptoms. Arenas and amphitheaters are better at accommodating wheelchair assistance; but open-space, outdoor festival venues are not as prepared.
2. Take some of the VIP perks and transfer them, or make them automatically accessible to attendees with qualified disabilities, E.g. golf cart transport, snacks and water, climate controlled environments and rest areas. I understand this negates the whole VIP experience for people who buy $$$ VIP packages; however, folks with disabilities are 'very important people' too. We just happen to be socioeconomically disadvantaged.
3. Caretakers -- For folks with severe disabilities who need full-time monitoring; allow one caretaker to attend the show with that person. If promoters do not want to add staffing for disability assistance, then allow a single caretaker to attend as a 'Guest of Honor.' This also applies to disabled vets or civilians that may have certified service animals. In order to accommodate this; promotors would need to offer a prioritized section for disability seating.
4. Enhanced medical services --- This may sound unreasonable to some; however, today's shows involve a lot more lighting and visual effects than thirty years ago. Event staffing and promotors, and fan neighbors, need to understand how to recognize and assist folks who are prone to having seizures from visual stimuli. Anti-convulsant medication doesn't always prevent an episode when overwhelming stimuli is present.
5. Medications and Personal -- Males are typically not allowed into venues with a bag or backpack. Often times, I've had to have a female carry my medications or personal items into a venue in case of emergency. That is a quasi-discriminatory policy that needs to change.
Aside from some logistical modification or permissions; we, as attendees, ultimately need to look out for each other. We arrive together; we should leave the event ALIVE together.
Thank you for those questions. Have a great day, Zod!
A major key is the artists' role. EV watches the crowd like a hawk and if there is something he sees that he doesn't like, he gets it corrected.
Apparently this Travis scott has shows that are pretty crazy/rowdy in the crowd. Probably tough to tell the difference. He probably never expected this in 1000000 years and isn't watchful.
I recently became disabled, so there are many things I'm still learning about ADA accommodations and how venues provide those resources. I do remember seeing elevated priority seating at The Home Shows; but, that was the first time I'd ever seen prioritized seating for ADA folks. Maybe you can actually teach me some things here.
And, you're right. Thousands of shows go on without incident. Not meaning to discredit every venue, but I certainly didn't like Live Nation's statement. I felt like it was negligent, especially if Live Nation is aware of this particular artist and his antics. As people respond, I'm becoming more aware that it has to do with a particular artist, Travis Scott? Is that correct?
I agree with your risk vs. rewards assessment. I by no means want to imply personal responsibility isn't a factor; it's just something changed between the nineties and now. They used to allow people to enter venues with water and snacks, a small backpack with personals. But, a lot of that changed after 9-11. Venues are more strict in this modern era. For some, that means an additional level of security. For others, it means they have to make a choice between attending a venue or not.
Thanks again for those comments. Have a great day, drakeheurer14!
Ok. I'm getting a more clear picture about this Travis Scott person. This kind of reminds me of the Nikki Sixx / Motley Crue incident when he tried to get the crowd to beat up that security guard, and was yelling all kinds of slurs at him.
Yeah-- ya'll are right. I'm in the grey area here. Glad y'all are chiming in to enlighten me about some things.
So we have a situation that occurred under unforeseen circumstances? However, does Live Nation know this guy promotes these antics at his shows? We're not talking about Alice Cooper, W.A.S.P., or Marilyn Manson tossing raw meat on fans for theatrics and shock-value...... We're talking about a guy who communicated mob threats at an audience member.
Insane era we're living in. Yeah-- I agree with you. Sticking to indoor shows. These festivals are becoming too big for their own good. Hard to manage crowd safety and whatnot when event staffing is vastly outnumbered.
Have a great day, Spartanacus!
Ok. So I need to get a medical alert card and a clear bag. Makes sense.
Just so y'all know --I just became disabled a couple years ago. Just now learning how to navigate the world again. So these comments, corrections, information, etc., is all enlightening for me.
This is a much better discussion than what happened two weeks ago. Thank you, JeBurkhardt. Have a great day!
I agree. EV knows the audience so well he can recognize faces from years ago. But, he should not have to babysit the audience from the stage. That says something remarkable about the era we're living in, especially, as one previous commenter stated, 'personal responsibility.' EV used to go off; the crowd would go off; nobody died and nobody got ejected for moshing or crowd-surfing. We were all having fun in those days. What happened since?
If anybody remembers their history; Guns and Roses, St. Louis, MO. Nobody expected that incident either. Thankfully, this type of tragedy is the exception rather than the norm. However, it's a moment where we can all sort of reflect and think about whether "we're being our brother's keeper" when we attend shows.
Thank you for commenting!! Have a great day, MayDay10!!
Mic dropped here, folks.
Have a great day, Foriginal Sin!!
Gutted: London 2 2018, Sacramento 2022, Noblesville 2023
I hope TS wakes up this morning and has a serious conversation with himself. As harsh as that may seem, being that I don't know his state of mind at the present moment; he's still has to take responsibility for his words if he provoked the audience.
Some people may read this discussion and possibly interpret what I'm saying as, "Shut down the band. Shut down the venues." That's not what I'm saying at all. I want PJ to tour again. I want to see concerts and festivals resume as normal, pre-pandemic style. But, something about the culture wars is seeping into our exclusive territories of fun...... and that is where I'm drawing a line in the sand. Once an idiot mob starts ruining other peoples' fun time; I get annoyed.
Yeah-- I think the pandemic is their primary focus when decisions are being made. And, you know what? I'm ok with that. I've got twenty-something years worth of bootlegs and videos, thirty years worth of albums. I've got TC streaming and Nuggs to keep me happy until they decide to resume touring. Besides, if anyone missed out, EV and Ament dropped some pretty awesome music during the pandemic. Flag Day soundtrack is absolutely awesome! And, if you're feeling curious; check out the limited edition 7" single, Trashformer, by Donna Grantis featuring Mike McCready. Holy crap!! What a performance!!
So if people are getting impatient or bored. Then I suggest checking out some of their side projects in the meanwhile.
I mean-- to be honest. After being homeless, in Seattle, I couldn't careless about a restroom personally. I'll pee right where I'm standing for all I care. No shame here, not after that experience. It's just that other people may not share a similar level of shamelessness in that regard. So this is helpful information for anyone who has similar questions. Restroom and food access is a big fricken deal for disabled folks, especially if they don't have an able-bodied companion to assist them.
Really appreciate your update. Have a great day, RatherStarved!!
Folks...me thinks PJ is nearing the end with all things considered. Let's just hope they give us our 2020 Spring tour first.
1998 (2) - East Lansing & Auburn Hills; 2000 (2) - Tampa & Noblesville; 2003 (2) - Lexington & Noblesville; 2006 (1) - Cincinnati; 2007 (1) - Chicago (Lollapalooza); 2008 (Ed in Milwaukee); 2009 (1) - Chicago; 2010 (1) - Noblesville; 2013 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2016 (Temple of the Dog in Los Angeles); 2017 (Ed at Ohana in Dana Point);
2021 (3) - Dana Point I, II & III; 2022 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2025 - Southern U.S. Tour Please!
Psst... just between us.... me also thinks PJ is nearing the end with all things considered. I hope everyone gets to use their tickets in 2022. But, if not, this is one hell of a story to tell our grandchildren. I would compare it to the story my parents told me about Elvis.
Elvis was scheduled to play in Fayetteville, NC, a couple of weeks before he passed. My parents never refunded the tickets and still have them till this day. I guess what I'm saying is -- shit happens. Now how do we deal with it and move forward, and what did we learn from it?
Once we arrive at a place where artists literally have to negotiate peace with a mob, the show is over. Period. Not sure how you dismantle a huge event like this without causing an uproar, especially since it was already in an uproar.
Yeah-- definitely a red flag. These were not Woodstock hippies crashing the show to take mud baths. Tragic and sad.
So do you typically contact the venue after you purchase tickets, or before? That's kind of where I'm confused; because shows sellout so quickly, I do not know whether to purchase first and call later, or call first and possibly not get a seat period.
Man, I bet that rupture sucked donkey-balls. I've been told that is one of the most painful injuries a person can sustain. Glad to hear you're mobile again. Glad to know you're out there taking calculated risks, not staying down and out. Much respect for pushing through.
Thanks for those comments and advice, jpgoegel. Have a great evening!