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Entire Bull Moose store staff is fired.

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Comments

  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,562
    mrussel1 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    "Cheap is expensive"  That is brilliant!  I have said for years, if you want American jobs in factories back here then stop buying at Wal-Mart.  It's full of cheap, made in China junk.  Sure it's cheap but it isn't quality...

    I do buy throw away work jeans and spend $100 on designer and the quality is clearly visible.
    It's a mixed bag.  Do you want to pay $2k for a 42" tv?  Probably not.  But if we only buy American, that's what we will pay.  Your iphone will cost 3k, not 1k (if not more).  So by all means, let's bring back the garment industry, shoes, and televisions.  But be prepared for more expensive goods and inflation.  
    I’m not sure it would be that much more, definitely doubt it would be 3 times more expensive. Making it here means not having to ship halfway around the world, basically shipping twice since most of the shipping contains go back empty to ship again.
    Im always surprised when I buy a tool or something else and see the “made in USA” stamp and resize it’s nearly the same price as the China products. So it can be done at minimal cost.
    A 21" tube tv in teh 70's, made in the US, cost about $500.  Think about that.  That's over 3K in today's dollars.  Now there's lots of reasons for that, but cheap labor is absolutely part of it.  How much was your 24" televsion in the 90's?  Mine was over $500.  It was a huge investment.  The cost of televisions has absolutely run inverted to the inflation rate.  

    And btw @tempo_n_groove, cars are much more expensive today than they were in the 60's, 70's, etc.  Now there's regulation, technology, and lots of factors.  But I don't agree with your premise that cars are not expensive.  They are really fucking expensive.  However credit is WAY cheaper than it was during previous generations. 


    Cars are expensive but I can still buy a Tundra that isn't 3x the price of a F150.
    The HQ of a car company is pretty irrelevant today.  BMW may be a German company but most of their US cars are made in Spartanburg.  Ford and GM manufacture heavily in Mexico and Canada.  So comparing a Toyota to a Ford is not relevant.  Comparing the price of a vehicle compared to the inflation rates over the last 50 years is how you would approach it.  But again, there are other factors like efficiency standards, regulations that muddy the analysis. 
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 27,111
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    "Cheap is expensive"  That is brilliant!  I have said for years, if you want American jobs in factories back here then stop buying at Wal-Mart.  It's full of cheap, made in China junk.  Sure it's cheap but it isn't quality...

    I do buy throw away work jeans and spend $100 on designer and the quality is clearly visible.
    It's a mixed bag.  Do you want to pay $2k for a 42" tv?  Probably not.  But if we only buy American, that's what we will pay.  Your iphone will cost 3k, not 1k (if not more).  So by all means, let's bring back the garment industry, shoes, and televisions.  But be prepared for more expensive goods and inflation.  
    I’m not sure it would be that much more, definitely doubt it would be 3 times more expensive. Making it here means not having to ship halfway around the world, basically shipping twice since most of the shipping contains go back empty to ship again.
    Im always surprised when I buy a tool or something else and see the “made in USA” stamp and resize it’s nearly the same price as the China products. So it can be done at minimal cost.
    A 21" tube tv in teh 70's, made in the US, cost about $500.  Think about that.  That's over 3K in today's dollars.  Now there's lots of reasons for that, but cheap labor is absolutely part of it.  How much was your 24" televsion in the 90's?  Mine was over $500.  It was a huge investment.  The cost of televisions has absolutely run inverted to the inflation rate.  

    And btw @tempo_n_groove, cars are much more expensive today than they were in the 60's, 70's, etc.  Now there's regulation, technology, and lots of factors.  But I don't agree with your premise that cars are not expensive.  They are really fucking expensive.  However credit is WAY cheaper than it was during previous generations. 


    Cars are expensive but I can still buy a Tundra that isn't 3x the price of a F150.
    The HQ of a car company is pretty irrelevant today.  BMW may be a German company but most of their US cars are made in Spartanburg.  Ford and GM manufacture heavily in Mexico and Canada.  So comparing a Toyota to a Ford is not relevant.  Comparing the price of a vehicle compared to the inflation rates over the last 50 years is how you would approach it.  But again, there are other factors like efficiency standards, regulations that muddy the analysis. 
    Actually that is precisely relevant.

    Tundra- Made in Texas
    F150 made in Canada, Mexico and US.

    Price?  At or around the same.  So yes it is relevant.  More of my Tundra is made here in the USA than an F150 is.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,562
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    "Cheap is expensive"  That is brilliant!  I have said for years, if you want American jobs in factories back here then stop buying at Wal-Mart.  It's full of cheap, made in China junk.  Sure it's cheap but it isn't quality...

    I do buy throw away work jeans and spend $100 on designer and the quality is clearly visible.
    It's a mixed bag.  Do you want to pay $2k for a 42" tv?  Probably not.  But if we only buy American, that's what we will pay.  Your iphone will cost 3k, not 1k (if not more).  So by all means, let's bring back the garment industry, shoes, and televisions.  But be prepared for more expensive goods and inflation.  
    I’m not sure it would be that much more, definitely doubt it would be 3 times more expensive. Making it here means not having to ship halfway around the world, basically shipping twice since most of the shipping contains go back empty to ship again.
    Im always surprised when I buy a tool or something else and see the “made in USA” stamp and resize it’s nearly the same price as the China products. So it can be done at minimal cost.
    A 21" tube tv in teh 70's, made in the US, cost about $500.  Think about that.  That's over 3K in today's dollars.  Now there's lots of reasons for that, but cheap labor is absolutely part of it.  How much was your 24" televsion in the 90's?  Mine was over $500.  It was a huge investment.  The cost of televisions has absolutely run inverted to the inflation rate.  

    And btw @tempo_n_groove, cars are much more expensive today than they were in the 60's, 70's, etc.  Now there's regulation, technology, and lots of factors.  But I don't agree with your premise that cars are not expensive.  They are really fucking expensive.  However credit is WAY cheaper than it was during previous generations. 


    Cars are expensive but I can still buy a Tundra that isn't 3x the price of a F150.
    The HQ of a car company is pretty irrelevant today.  BMW may be a German company but most of their US cars are made in Spartanburg.  Ford and GM manufacture heavily in Mexico and Canada.  So comparing a Toyota to a Ford is not relevant.  Comparing the price of a vehicle compared to the inflation rates over the last 50 years is how you would approach it.  But again, there are other factors like efficiency standards, regulations that muddy the analysis. 
    Actually that is precisely relevant.

    Tundra- Made in Texas
    F150 made in Canada, Mexico and US.

    Price?  At or around the same.  So yes it is relevant.  More of my Tundra is made here in the USA than an F150 is.
    Are you seriously making the argument that it costs the same to manufacture something in the US as it does Mexico, China, Vietnam, etc.?  You are ignoring supply chain pricing, margins, and many other factors.  

    Last, according to this article, every F150 sold in the States is made in the States, so now I have no idea what you're comparing.  https://motorandwheels.com/where-are-ford-f-150s-made/
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 6,101
    edited May 27
    mrussel1 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    "Cheap is expensive"  That is brilliant!  I have said for years, if you want American jobs in factories back here then stop buying at Wal-Mart.  It's full of cheap, made in China junk.  Sure it's cheap but it isn't quality...

    I do buy throw away work jeans and spend $100 on designer and the quality is clearly visible.
    It's a mixed bag.  Do you want to pay $2k for a 42" tv?  Probably not.  But if we only buy American, that's what we will pay.  Your iphone will cost 3k, not 1k (if not more).  So by all means, let's bring back the garment industry, shoes, and televisions.  But be prepared for more expensive goods and inflation.  
    I’m not sure it would be that much more, definitely doubt it would be 3 times more expensive. Making it here means not having to ship halfway around the world, basically shipping twice since most of the shipping contains go back empty to ship again.
    Im always surprised when I buy a tool or something else and see the “made in USA” stamp and resize it’s nearly the same price as the China products. So it can be done at minimal cost.
    A 21" tube tv in teh 70's, made in the US, cost about $500.  Think about that.  That's over 3K in today's dollars.  Now there's lots of reasons for that, but cheap labor is absolutely part of it.  How much was your 24" televsion in the 90's?  Mine was over $500.  It was a huge investment.  The cost of televisions has absolutely run inverted to the inflation rate.  

    And btw @tempo_n_groove, cars are much more expensive today than they were in the 60's, 70's, etc.  Now there's regulation, technology, and lots of factors.  But I don't agree with your premise that cars are not expensive.  They are really fucking expensive.  However credit is WAY cheaper than it was during previous generations. 


    Comparing 70s technology to today is apples to oranges. Our first computer in the early 90s was about $700. Now you can get one literally 100 times better for less. A lot less goes into electronics today than compared to 40 or 50 years ago, no matter where it’s made.
    I just looked it up out of curiousity. One site says if an iPhone was 100% made in USA it would about double the cost. If assembled in USA with foreign parts it would only increase about 5%. Assembled the parts here with imported materials would increase it only about 15%. It looks like just getting raw materials is the expensive part, at least for iPhones.
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,562
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    "Cheap is expensive"  That is brilliant!  I have said for years, if you want American jobs in factories back here then stop buying at Wal-Mart.  It's full of cheap, made in China junk.  Sure it's cheap but it isn't quality...

    I do buy throw away work jeans and spend $100 on designer and the quality is clearly visible.
    It's a mixed bag.  Do you want to pay $2k for a 42" tv?  Probably not.  But if we only buy American, that's what we will pay.  Your iphone will cost 3k, not 1k (if not more).  So by all means, let's bring back the garment industry, shoes, and televisions.  But be prepared for more expensive goods and inflation.  
    I’m not sure it would be that much more, definitely doubt it would be 3 times more expensive. Making it here means not having to ship halfway around the world, basically shipping twice since most of the shipping contains go back empty to ship again.
    Im always surprised when I buy a tool or something else and see the “made in USA” stamp and resize it’s nearly the same price as the China products. So it can be done at minimal cost.
    A 21" tube tv in teh 70's, made in the US, cost about $500.  Think about that.  That's over 3K in today's dollars.  Now there's lots of reasons for that, but cheap labor is absolutely part of it.  How much was your 24" televsion in the 90's?  Mine was over $500.  It was a huge investment.  The cost of televisions has absolutely run inverted to the inflation rate.  

    And btw @tempo_n_groove, cars are much more expensive today than they were in the 60's, 70's, etc.  Now there's regulation, technology, and lots of factors.  But I don't agree with your premise that cars are not expensive.  They are really fucking expensive.  However credit is WAY cheaper than it was during previous generations. 


    Comparing 70s technology to today is apples to oranges. Our first computer in the early 90s was about $700. Now you can get one literally 100 times better for less. A lot less goes into electronics today than compared to 40 or 50 years ago, no matter where it’s made.
    I just looked it up out of curiousity. One site says if an iPhone was 100% made in USA it would about double the cost. If assembled in USA with foreign parts it would only increase about 5%. Assembled the parts here with imported materials would increase it only about 15%. It looks like just getting raw materials is the expensive part, at least for iPhones.
    Ok 2x, not 3. But it's still considerable.  And the garment example appears even more dramatic.  I also believe that if there was a forced in source model,  all it would do is accelerate the robotics replacement.  There would be fewer workers and more technical engineers. 

    Still,  the point is the same.  Is the country that is fundamentally built on consumerism really willing to buy American and pay much more for their products? I don't think so.  
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 6,101
    mrussel1 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    "Cheap is expensive"  That is brilliant!  I have said for years, if you want American jobs in factories back here then stop buying at Wal-Mart.  It's full of cheap, made in China junk.  Sure it's cheap but it isn't quality...

    I do buy throw away work jeans and spend $100 on designer and the quality is clearly visible.
    It's a mixed bag.  Do you want to pay $2k for a 42" tv?  Probably not.  But if we only buy American, that's what we will pay.  Your iphone will cost 3k, not 1k (if not more).  So by all means, let's bring back the garment industry, shoes, and televisions.  But be prepared for more expensive goods and inflation.  
    I’m not sure it would be that much more, definitely doubt it would be 3 times more expensive. Making it here means not having to ship halfway around the world, basically shipping twice since most of the shipping contains go back empty to ship again.
    Im always surprised when I buy a tool or something else and see the “made in USA” stamp and resize it’s nearly the same price as the China products. So it can be done at minimal cost.
    A 21" tube tv in teh 70's, made in the US, cost about $500.  Think about that.  That's over 3K in today's dollars.  Now there's lots of reasons for that, but cheap labor is absolutely part of it.  How much was your 24" televsion in the 90's?  Mine was over $500.  It was a huge investment.  The cost of televisions has absolutely run inverted to the inflation rate.  

    And btw @tempo_n_groove, cars are much more expensive today than they were in the 60's, 70's, etc.  Now there's regulation, technology, and lots of factors.  But I don't agree with your premise that cars are not expensive.  They are really fucking expensive.  However credit is WAY cheaper than it was during previous generations. 


    Comparing 70s technology to today is apples to oranges. Our first computer in the early 90s was about $700. Now you can get one literally 100 times better for less. A lot less goes into electronics today than compared to 40 or 50 years ago, no matter where it’s made.
    I just looked it up out of curiousity. One site says if an iPhone was 100% made in USA it would about double the cost. If assembled in USA with foreign parts it would only increase about 5%. Assembled the parts here with imported materials would increase it only about 15%. It looks like just getting raw materials is the expensive part, at least for iPhones.
    Ok 2x, not 3. But it's still considerable.  And the garment example appears even more dramatic.  I also believe that if there was a forced in source model,  all it would do is accelerate the robotics replacement.  There would be fewer workers and more technical engineers. 

    Still,  the point is the same.  Is the country that is fundamentally built on consumerism really willing to buy American and pay much more for their products? I don't think so.  
    Not even 2x though, just 15% more if you import raw materials, which is what makes sense anyway. And yes, clothing is more because it’s more labor.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,562
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    "Cheap is expensive"  That is brilliant!  I have said for years, if you want American jobs in factories back here then stop buying at Wal-Mart.  It's full of cheap, made in China junk.  Sure it's cheap but it isn't quality...

    I do buy throw away work jeans and spend $100 on designer and the quality is clearly visible.
    It's a mixed bag.  Do you want to pay $2k for a 42" tv?  Probably not.  But if we only buy American, that's what we will pay.  Your iphone will cost 3k, not 1k (if not more).  So by all means, let's bring back the garment industry, shoes, and televisions.  But be prepared for more expensive goods and inflation.  
    I’m not sure it would be that much more, definitely doubt it would be 3 times more expensive. Making it here means not having to ship halfway around the world, basically shipping twice since most of the shipping contains go back empty to ship again.
    Im always surprised when I buy a tool or something else and see the “made in USA” stamp and resize it’s nearly the same price as the China products. So it can be done at minimal cost.
    A 21" tube tv in teh 70's, made in the US, cost about $500.  Think about that.  That's over 3K in today's dollars.  Now there's lots of reasons for that, but cheap labor is absolutely part of it.  How much was your 24" televsion in the 90's?  Mine was over $500.  It was a huge investment.  The cost of televisions has absolutely run inverted to the inflation rate.  

    And btw @tempo_n_groove, cars are much more expensive today than they were in the 60's, 70's, etc.  Now there's regulation, technology, and lots of factors.  But I don't agree with your premise that cars are not expensive.  They are really fucking expensive.  However credit is WAY cheaper than it was during previous generations. 


    Comparing 70s technology to today is apples to oranges. Our first computer in the early 90s was about $700. Now you can get one literally 100 times better for less. A lot less goes into electronics today than compared to 40 or 50 years ago, no matter where it’s made.
    I just looked it up out of curiousity. One site says if an iPhone was 100% made in USA it would about double the cost. If assembled in USA with foreign parts it would only increase about 5%. Assembled the parts here with imported materials would increase it only about 15%. It looks like just getting raw materials is the expensive part, at least for iPhones.
    Ok 2x, not 3. But it's still considerable.  And the garment example appears even more dramatic.  I also believe that if there was a forced in source model,  all it would do is accelerate the robotics replacement.  There would be fewer workers and more technical engineers. 

    Still,  the point is the same.  Is the country that is fundamentally built on consumerism really willing to buy American and pay much more for their products? I don't think so.  
    Not even 2x though, just 15% more if you import raw materials, which is what makes sense anyway. And yes, clothing is more because it’s more labor.
    Is importing all the materials and just building here buying American?  Maybe? Kind of?  But to the article's point, we don't have the willing labor force to do it anyway.  It's all a ruse.  
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 21,321
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    "Cheap is expensive"  That is brilliant!  I have said for years, if you want American jobs in factories back here then stop buying at Wal-Mart.  It's full of cheap, made in China junk.  Sure it's cheap but it isn't quality...

    I do buy throw away work jeans and spend $100 on designer and the quality is clearly visible.
    It's a mixed bag.  Do you want to pay $2k for a 42" tv?  Probably not.  But if we only buy American, that's what we will pay.  Your iphone will cost 3k, not 1k (if not more).  So by all means, let's bring back the garment industry, shoes, and televisions.  But be prepared for more expensive goods and inflation.  
    I’m not sure it would be that much more, definitely doubt it would be 3 times more expensive. Making it here means not having to ship halfway around the world, basically shipping twice since most of the shipping contains go back empty to ship again.
    Im always surprised when I buy a tool or something else and see the “made in USA” stamp and resize it’s nearly the same price as the China products. So it can be done at minimal cost.
    A 21" tube tv in teh 70's, made in the US, cost about $500.  Think about that.  That's over 3K in today's dollars.  Now there's lots of reasons for that, but cheap labor is absolutely part of it.  How much was your 24" televsion in the 90's?  Mine was over $500.  It was a huge investment.  The cost of televisions has absolutely run inverted to the inflation rate.  

    And btw @tempo_n_groove, cars are much more expensive today than they were in the 60's, 70's, etc.  Now there's regulation, technology, and lots of factors.  But I don't agree with your premise that cars are not expensive.  They are really fucking expensive.  However credit is WAY cheaper than it was during previous generations. 


    Cars are expensive but I can still buy a Tundra that isn't 3x the price of a F150.
    The HQ of a car company is pretty irrelevant today.  BMW may be a German company but most of their US cars are made in Spartanburg.  Ford and GM manufacture heavily in Mexico and Canada.  So comparing a Toyota to a Ford is not relevant.  Comparing the price of a vehicle compared to the inflation rates over the last 50 years is how you would approach it.  But again, there are other factors like efficiency standards, regulations that muddy the analysis. 
    Actually that is precisely relevant.

    Tundra- Made in Texas
    F150 made in Canada, Mexico and US.

    Price?  At or around the same.  So yes it is relevant.  More of my Tundra is made here in the USA than an F150 is.
    Are you seriously making the argument that it costs the same to manufacture something in the US as it does Mexico, China, Vietnam, etc.?  You are ignoring supply chain pricing, margins, and many other factors.  

    Last, according to this article, every F150 sold in the States is made in the States, so now I have no idea what you're comparing.  https://motorandwheels.com/where-are-ford-f-150s-made/

    plant outside of louisville. delivered tires there once.
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  • HobbesHobbes Pacific NorthwestPosts: 4,934
    What in the flying flock of seagulls is thread about?! 

    Corporations, cars, and candy bars?

    Is this where I place my vote for best movie sequel?
  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 23,314
    Hobbes said:
    What in the flying flock of seagulls is thread about?! 

    Corporations, cars, and candy bars?

    Is this where I place my vote for best movie sequel?
    And post a dreamy photo of a band member =)
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,939
    hedonist said:
    Hobbes said:
    What in the flying flock of seagulls is thread about?! 

    Corporations, cars, and candy bars?

    Is this where I place my vote for best movie sequel?
    And post a dreamy photo of a band member =)
    Holding a cat.
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  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 8,488
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    "Cheap is expensive"  That is brilliant!  I have said for years, if you want American jobs in factories back here then stop buying at Wal-Mart.  It's full of cheap, made in China junk.  Sure it's cheap but it isn't quality...

    I do buy throw away work jeans and spend $100 on designer and the quality is clearly visible.
    It's a mixed bag.  Do you want to pay $2k for a 42" tv?  Probably not.  But if we only buy American, that's what we will pay.  Your iphone will cost 3k, not 1k (if not more).  So by all means, let's bring back the garment industry, shoes, and televisions.  But be prepared for more expensive goods and inflation.  
    I’m not sure it would be that much more, definitely doubt it would be 3 times more expensive. Making it here means not having to ship halfway around the world, basically shipping twice since most of the shipping contains go back empty to ship again.
    Im always surprised when I buy a tool or something else and see the “made in USA” stamp and resize it’s nearly the same price as the China products. So it can be done at minimal cost.
    A 21" tube tv in teh 70's, made in the US, cost about $500.  Think about that.  That's over 3K in today's dollars.  Now there's lots of reasons for that, but cheap labor is absolutely part of it.  How much was your 24" televsion in the 90's?  Mine was over $500.  It was a huge investment.  The cost of televisions has absolutely run inverted to the inflation rate.  

    And btw @tempo_n_groove, cars are much more expensive today than they were in the 60's, 70's, etc.  Now there's regulation, technology, and lots of factors.  But I don't agree with your premise that cars are not expensive.  They are really fucking expensive.  However credit is WAY cheaper than it was during previous generations. 


    Cars are expensive but I can still buy a Tundra that isn't 3x the price of a F150.
    The HQ of a car company is pretty irrelevant today.  BMW may be a German company but most of their US cars are made in Spartanburg.  Ford and GM manufacture heavily in Mexico and Canada.  So comparing a Toyota to a Ford is not relevant.  Comparing the price of a vehicle compared to the inflation rates over the last 50 years is how you would approach it.  But again, there are other factors like efficiency standards, regulations that muddy the analysis. 
    GM and Ford have been slowly exiting Canada…

    GM is pretty much completely gone from Windsor, they have a plant in ingersoll and are supposedly reopening Oshawa.  Ford in Windsor employs maybe 1000 total and they have a plant in Oakville that recently lost work as Ford decided to move some production to China…

    Manufacturing in Canada has been on a death march ever since we were dumb enough to sign free trade…the auto pact is what allowed Canada Manufacturers to thrive…

    Chrysler has the biggest impact in Windsor (auto capital of Canada)…but I suspect Windsor assembly could close in the next decade…without a new product to replace the mini van…it seems bleak.

     

  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 27,111
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    "Cheap is expensive"  That is brilliant!  I have said for years, if you want American jobs in factories back here then stop buying at Wal-Mart.  It's full of cheap, made in China junk.  Sure it's cheap but it isn't quality...

    I do buy throw away work jeans and spend $100 on designer and the quality is clearly visible.
    It's a mixed bag.  Do you want to pay $2k for a 42" tv?  Probably not.  But if we only buy American, that's what we will pay.  Your iphone will cost 3k, not 1k (if not more).  So by all means, let's bring back the garment industry, shoes, and televisions.  But be prepared for more expensive goods and inflation.  
    I’m not sure it would be that much more, definitely doubt it would be 3 times more expensive. Making it here means not having to ship halfway around the world, basically shipping twice since most of the shipping contains go back empty to ship again.
    Im always surprised when I buy a tool or something else and see the “made in USA” stamp and resize it’s nearly the same price as the China products. So it can be done at minimal cost.
    A 21" tube tv in teh 70's, made in the US, cost about $500.  Think about that.  That's over 3K in today's dollars.  Now there's lots of reasons for that, but cheap labor is absolutely part of it.  How much was your 24" televsion in the 90's?  Mine was over $500.  It was a huge investment.  The cost of televisions has absolutely run inverted to the inflation rate.  

    And btw @tempo_n_groove, cars are much more expensive today than they were in the 60's, 70's, etc.  Now there's regulation, technology, and lots of factors.  But I don't agree with your premise that cars are not expensive.  They are really fucking expensive.  However credit is WAY cheaper than it was during previous generations. 


    Cars are expensive but I can still buy a Tundra that isn't 3x the price of a F150.
    The HQ of a car company is pretty irrelevant today.  BMW may be a German company but most of their US cars are made in Spartanburg.  Ford and GM manufacture heavily in Mexico and Canada.  So comparing a Toyota to a Ford is not relevant.  Comparing the price of a vehicle compared to the inflation rates over the last 50 years is how you would approach it.  But again, there are other factors like efficiency standards, regulations that muddy the analysis. 
    Actually that is precisely relevant.

    Tundra- Made in Texas
    F150 made in Canada, Mexico and US.

    Price?  At or around the same.  So yes it is relevant.  More of my Tundra is made here in the USA than an F150 is.
    Are you seriously making the argument that it costs the same to manufacture something in the US as it does Mexico, China, Vietnam, etc.?  You are ignoring supply chain pricing, margins, and many other factors.  

    Last, according to this article, every F150 sold in the States is made in the States, so now I have no idea what you're comparing.  https://motorandwheels.com/where-are-ford-f-150s-made/
    That’s a propaganda article.

    Read this one as it’s more in depth and yes, parts of the F 150 are still made in Mexico and the US.
    https://www.cars.com/articles/the-cars-com-2020-american-made-index-which-cars-are-most-american-422711/
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 34,296
    edited May 28
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    Matts3221 said:
    A $15 minimum, or “living” wage has sounded pretty reasonable to me for awhile.  As someone who is going to own a small business/practice, I can’t picture myself paying someone less than that with at least some basic benefits 

    With that being said, I have found it confusing lately when I see signs for places hiring for much over the $15 living wage that many have demanded, and these places can’t find workers.  I’ve heard the argument that the unemployment benefits are not causing this, and that not having a $15 living wage is the reason, but I guess I’m not connecting those dots since these jobs that are offering $18-20 are remaining empty.
    I think a large part is no one wants to work with the public. I worked retail starting at 16 and thru college. It sucks , you get yelled at non stop , you can follow the rules but if the customer is upset then why did you not break said rule ? Had I done it without the customer getting angry i would have gotten in trouble for breaking a rule. It’s lose lose. 

    Then factor in the past year and a half having to argue with customers without mask ect .. the verbal abuse I have witness is insane while waiting to check out at the grocery store, I was speaking up for them since they can’t really say anything. However I stopped because people are crazy , someone pulled a gun on a cashier in my town because they did not have toliet paper. 

    Also a lot of those jobs are part time or just short enough that they don’t have to give benefits. 

    I honestly think some are just feed up with the system or are getting work else where . We have a 2.6% unemployment level in our state and everyplace I drive by has a “ now hiring “

    "I think a large part is no one wants to work with the public."

    Oh is that the truth!  Even in a business as relatively low key as a bookstore working with the public can be a real drag at times.  I can't imagine working in a large store anymore (did that many years ago).  I don't miss working in the bookstore (I just stock records after hours nowadays).
    Part of the problem (at least here in America) is that for too long people have been willing or even desiring to buy cheap crap at low prices. 
    Scenario one:  You can go into a big box store and buy a piece of shit that will last one year.  Then when it breaks, you go back and buy the same piece of shit and, assuming you are not concerned about environmental issues, don't care because it was cheap.
    The solution to that is to have stores that are more specialized (instead of Walmart, you have a hardware store, a fabric store, a furniture store, a record store, etc, etc.).  In these more specialized stores, you have better quality merchandise and excellent customer service rendered by well paid, qualified staff.  BUT WAIT! you say, YOU'D HAVE TO PAY MORE.  NO ONE WANTS TO PAY MORE!  Therein lies the crux of the problem (we like CHEAP), but there is  more to it than that:
    Scenario two: You go into a more specialized store that has great customer service and quality products that are more durable and you buy a better version of the product you bought in scenario one.  The cost is twice what it was in scenario one BUT the difference is that the more durable, quality product is going to last four years instead of one.  So essence, what you've gained is a more pleasant and rewarding shopping experience, the satisfaction of supporting a store that pays it's employees well, and a product that, in the end, actually costs half as much when factoring cost per year.  OH, and you help the environment!

    I've been suggesting these ideas since well back in the 1980's when I read some of Wendell Berry's fine books of essays that much more eloquently put forth these same general principles. I find it extremely discouraging that all these years later, we have gone in the exact opposite direction.  Using simple logic, it is easy to surmise that continuing in this direction, this will not end well.
    The problem with scenario one isn’t just people don’t want to pay more for better goods, but you pay more for the same thing at those smaller stores too. I agree it’s a problem, and I hate big stores like Lowe’s and Home Depot because people never know what you’re talking about. I have a 3-person rule, it’s always the third person I ask that can tell me where something is. But when I got to a local hardware store I find myself paying 50% more for the exact same item. A spark plug for my lawn mower might be $6 at Home Depot, it’s going to be $9 at Ace for the exact same item. As much as I want to support smaller stores, I’m not a charity and I’m not up for donating to a small business, which I feel like I’m doing when I shop there.
    I understand the overheard us going to be more on a smaller local store, but I need to keep money in my wallet too. If the cost difference was 10% I would probably shop there, but I find it’s usually much higher.
    Thats true with almost everything, not just hardware. My record store might sell a new album for $30 that I can get for $22 on Amazon. I’m not up for donation $8, a buck or 2 maybe, but not 8.

    The buy and replace is a problem, but I don’t think it’s caused by big stores. It’s cheaper technology and cheap production. Doesn’t have anything to do with who sells it. It’s put repair stores out of business. You can buy a new tv for the price of just the labor to repair the old one, forget the cost of the parts. I had a hard time finding to someone to repair my record player. So few repair places exist that the few that do are slammed and were pretty picky about brands and what they wanted to work on. 

    Cheap production is certainly a part of the problem.  Americans love cheap goods, regardless of the fact that they break down faster. 
    A major component of what I am suggesting includes higher production standards, and these exist in ever decreasing numbers.   Without higher production standards, what I am suggesting cannot happen.  If people demanded higher quality, more durable goods and were willing to pay a higher price up front knowing that the item would last longer and save them money in the long run, my idea would work.  But too many people are willing to settle for cheap garbage products that break down faster. 
    An example of what I'm talking about:  You can buy a cheap Teflon coated pan which puts molecules of Teflon into you body that you will never get rid of (read up on that, it's scary) and will chip and get tossed in a few years, or you can buy a quality stainless steel Revere Ware pan that will last for generations.  The Revere Ware is a far better deal, hands down.
    Another example: In 2008 I could have bought a Chevy Avio for $12,000.  Instead, I bought a Prius for $24,000.  The Avio might last 100K miles.  My Prius will probably last at least 300K miles.  The Prius is a better deal.  (Plus, the amount of money I will save in gas over the lifetime of the Prius will cover a large percentage of the original purchase price- I've done the math.)
    Another example:  When my step daughter worked for Sketchers, I bought a pare of shoes for walking.  They were about $40 and broke down in about 4 months.  Later, I bough a pair of Vasque ar R.E.I.  Those cost about $120 and after two years, replacing the insoles, they are still in great shape.  The Vasque were a far better deal and much better for my feet.
    Think about this.  I'm sure you could come up with more examples like the above. 
    It's ludicrous the way many consumers think about their spending.  Wasteful and illogical. 
    An old principal of mine used to say “cheap is expensive.” So true.
    There are dozens more examples like yours. How many people have heard their parents say they had a dishwasher, washing machine, lawnmower, etc for 20+ years. Now you replace/major repair those every few years.
    One exception in my experience are TVs. Although way cheaper, they are much better and still last as long. Only TVs I had break in the last 15 years are when I dropped one moving and when my 4 year old shot the screen with a water gun while watching a classic cowboy movie. Either way it’s cheaper to replace than repair.


    I must have a fluke! In 2004 I bought a Panasonic 19" color TV for $129.00  Still works like a charm!
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 34,296
    edited May 28
    Hobbes said:
    What in the flying flock of seagulls is thread about?! 

    Corporations, cars, and candy bars?

    Is this where I place my vote for best movie sequel?

    :rofl:    

    It's AMT, Hobbes, AMFLOCKIN'T!  :lol:

    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • dankinddankind I am not your foot. Posts: 17,877

    I SAW PEARL JAM
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 34,296
    We get a lot of miles on some shit around here sometimes!  :lol:
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










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