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Entire Bull Moose store staff is fired.

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Comments

  • Weston1283Weston1283 Cleveland, OHPosts: 3,174
    A $15 minimum, or “living” wage has sounded pretty reasonable to me for awhile.  As someone who is going to own a small business/practice, I can’t picture myself paying someone less than that with at least some basic benefits 

    With that being said, I have found it confusing lately when I see signs for places hiring for much over the $15 living wage that many have demanded, and these places can’t find workers.  I’ve heard the argument that the unemployment benefits are not causing this, and that not having a $15 living wage is the reason, but I guess I’m not connecting those dots since these jobs that are offering $18-20 are remaining empty.
    PJ, Please come back to Cleveland in 2018

    2010: Cleveland
    2012: Atlanta (Music Midtown Festival)
    2013: London ONT / Wrigley Field / Pittsburgh / Buffalo / San Diego / Los Angeles I / Los Angeles II
    2014: Cincinnati / St. Louis / Tulsa / Lincoln / Detroit / Denver
    2015: New York City (Global Citizen Festival)
    2016: Ft. Lauderdale / Miami / Jacksonville / Greenville / Hampton / Columbia / Lexington / Philly - Night II / New York City - Night II / Toronto - Night II / Bonnaroo / Telluride / Fenway - Night II / Wrigley - Night I / Wrigley - Night II / TOTD - Philadelphia, San Francisco
    2017: Ohana Fest (EV)
    2018: Amsterdam I / Amsterdam II / Seattle I / Seattle II / Boston I / Boston II
  • dudemandudeman Posts: 2,522
    "What's the one with swirling chocolate in the commercial?"

    "They all have swirling chocolate in the commercial."

    "NOT SKITTLES!"
    If hope can grow from dirt like me, it can be done. - EV
  • dankinddankind I am not your foot. Posts: 17,882
    A $15 minimum, or “living” wage has sounded pretty reasonable to me for awhile.  As someone who is going to own a small business/practice, I can’t picture myself paying someone less than that with at least some basic benefits 

    With that being said, I have found it confusing lately when I see signs for places hiring for much over the $15 living wage that many have demanded, and these places can’t find workers.  I’ve heard the argument that the unemployment benefits are not causing this, and that not having a $15 living wage is the reason, but I guess I’m not connecting those dots since these jobs that are offering $18-20 are remaining empty.
    If you’re seeing those $18-$20/hour jobs in the Boston area, that’s not a living wage.
    I SAW PEARL JAM
  • Weston1283Weston1283 Cleveland, OHPosts: 3,174
    dankind said:
    A $15 minimum, or “living” wage has sounded pretty reasonable to me for awhile.  As someone who is going to own a small business/practice, I can’t picture myself paying someone less than that with at least some basic benefits 

    With that being said, I have found it confusing lately when I see signs for places hiring for much over the $15 living wage that many have demanded, and these places can’t find workers.  I’ve heard the argument that the unemployment benefits are not causing this, and that not having a $15 living wage is the reason, but I guess I’m not connecting those dots since these jobs that are offering $18-20 are remaining empty.
    If you’re seeing those $18-$20/hour jobs in the Boston area, that’s not a living wage.
    Some in Boston but also have had a lot of people send me pictures of those wages being advertised in Ohio 
    PJ, Please come back to Cleveland in 2018

    2010: Cleveland
    2012: Atlanta (Music Midtown Festival)
    2013: London ONT / Wrigley Field / Pittsburgh / Buffalo / San Diego / Los Angeles I / Los Angeles II
    2014: Cincinnati / St. Louis / Tulsa / Lincoln / Detroit / Denver
    2015: New York City (Global Citizen Festival)
    2016: Ft. Lauderdale / Miami / Jacksonville / Greenville / Hampton / Columbia / Lexington / Philly - Night II / New York City - Night II / Toronto - Night II / Bonnaroo / Telluride / Fenway - Night II / Wrigley - Night I / Wrigley - Night II / TOTD - Philadelphia, San Francisco
    2017: Ohana Fest (EV)
    2018: Amsterdam I / Amsterdam II / Seattle I / Seattle II / Boston I / Boston II
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 6,104
    A $15 minimum, or “living” wage has sounded pretty reasonable to me for awhile.  As someone who is going to own a small business/practice, I can’t picture myself paying someone less than that with at least some basic benefits 

    With that being said, I have found it confusing lately when I see signs for places hiring for much over the $15 living wage that many have demanded, and these places can’t find workers.  I’ve heard the argument that the unemployment benefits are not causing this, and that not having a $15 living wage is the reason, but I guess I’m not connecting those dots since these jobs that are offering $18-20 are remaining empty.
    I don’t see how the unemployment benefits are not a factor. The average benefit for Colorado I saw was about $675 a week, with a max of about $950. Why go to work all day for $18/hr when you can stay home for the same price? It’s not being lazy, it’s just what makes sense.
  • Matts3221Matts3221 Posts: 537

    Lets remember what minimum wage is supposed to be - the minimum amount of funds to sustain life ( IE: Rent / Food / Electricity ect…. )

    Somehow we just now thing of it as "shitjobs" well our parents had shit jobs in 60's and if you adjusted their min wage to today they would be over 20 dollars an hour. Oh also they had pensions.

    More or less our grandparents fought for fair wages for workers and then our parents took advantage of it , tore the system down , got rid of pensions and replaced them with 401K's ( not only insuring they are paid but any stock they own went up in price ) while tearing away at unions being worthless and the fed giving us a substandard minimum wage.

    Sorry this stuff drives me nuts , sick of people saying " not were you should work " or " find a better job " that's not the problem. Sorry to say but it really is the boomer generation. That's not a blanked of every one that fits into that category but a large amount.

  • JeBurkhardtJeBurkhardt Posts: 914
    mace1229 said:
    A $15 minimum, or “living” wage has sounded pretty reasonable to me for awhile.  As someone who is going to own a small business/practice, I can’t picture myself paying someone less than that with at least some basic benefits 

    With that being said, I have found it confusing lately when I see signs for places hiring for much over the $15 living wage that many have demanded, and these places can’t find workers.  I’ve heard the argument that the unemployment benefits are not causing this, and that not having a $15 living wage is the reason, but I guess I’m not connecting those dots since these jobs that are offering $18-20 are remaining empty.
    I don’t see how the unemployment benefits are not a factor. The average benefit for Colorado I saw was about $675 a week, with a max of about $950. Why go to work all day for $18/hr when you can stay home for the same price? It’s not being lazy, it’s just what makes sense.
    Another factor is child care costs. When you go back to work, someone has to watch your kids. Even if the unemployment benefits don't cover all of the lost income, not having to pay the cost of child care more than offsets it.
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 27,141
    Matts3221 said:

    Lets remember what minimum wage is supposed to be - the minimum amount of funds to sustain life ( IE: Rent / Food / Electricity ect…. )

    Somehow we just now thing of it as "shitjobs" well our parents had shit jobs in 60's and if you adjusted their min wage to today they would be over 20 dollars an hour. Oh also they had pensions.

    More or less our grandparents fought for fair wages for workers and then our parents took advantage of it , tore the system down , got rid of pensions and replaced them with 401K's ( not only insuring they are paid but any stock they own went up in price ) while tearing away at unions being worthless and the fed giving us a substandard minimum wage.

    Sorry this stuff drives me nuts , sick of people saying " not were you should work " or " find a better job " that's not the problem. Sorry to say but it really is the boomer generation. That's not a blanked of every one that fits into that category but a large amount.

    You know I keep forgetting this.  Min wage was a sustainable living for so long and we got away from that.

    I change my stance on Living Wage.  Raise the minimum wage higher.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 34,300
    brianlux said:
    Find fractions of chocolate - Special Occasions by URBrainycom
    Show your work, Brian 

    :rofl:
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • Matts3221Matts3221 Posts: 537
    Matts3221 said:

    Lets remember what minimum wage is supposed to be - the minimum amount of funds to sustain life ( IE: Rent / Food / Electricity ect…. )

    Somehow we just now thing of it as "shitjobs" well our parents had shit jobs in 60's and if you adjusted their min wage to today they would be over 20 dollars an hour. Oh also they had pensions.

    More or less our grandparents fought for fair wages for workers and then our parents took advantage of it , tore the system down , got rid of pensions and replaced them with 401K's ( not only insuring they are paid but any stock they own went up in price ) while tearing away at unions being worthless and the fed giving us a substandard minimum wage.

    Sorry this stuff drives me nuts , sick of people saying " not were you should work " or " find a better job " that's not the problem. Sorry to say but it really is the boomer generation. That's not a blanked of every one that fits into that category but a large amount.

    You know I keep forgetting this.  Min wage was a sustainable living for so long and we got away from that.

    I change my stance on Living Wage.  Raise the minimum wage higher.
    I have to say having actual discussion without insults is so refreshing then a comment section on Facebook. Also sorry to go off topic

    I think in the age of the internet companies cannot hide behind shitty things the way they used too. I’m sure much more is going to come out about this. 
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 27,141
    Matts3221 said:
    Matts3221 said:

    Lets remember what minimum wage is supposed to be - the minimum amount of funds to sustain life ( IE: Rent / Food / Electricity ect…. )

    Somehow we just now thing of it as "shitjobs" well our parents had shit jobs in 60's and if you adjusted their min wage to today they would be over 20 dollars an hour. Oh also they had pensions.

    More or less our grandparents fought for fair wages for workers and then our parents took advantage of it , tore the system down , got rid of pensions and replaced them with 401K's ( not only insuring they are paid but any stock they own went up in price ) while tearing away at unions being worthless and the fed giving us a substandard minimum wage.

    Sorry this stuff drives me nuts , sick of people saying " not were you should work " or " find a better job " that's not the problem. Sorry to say but it really is the boomer generation. That's not a blanked of every one that fits into that category but a large amount.

    You know I keep forgetting this.  Min wage was a sustainable living for so long and we got away from that.

    I change my stance on Living Wage.  Raise the minimum wage higher.
    I have to say having actual discussion without insults is so refreshing then a comment section on Facebook. Also sorry to go off topic

    I think in the age of the internet companies cannot hide behind shitty things the way they used too. I’m sure much more is going to come out about this. 
    We throw in the occasional FU in here too, lol.  But I do know what you mean.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 34,300
    Matts3221 said:
    Matts3221 said:

    Lets remember what minimum wage is supposed to be - the minimum amount of funds to sustain life ( IE: Rent / Food / Electricity ect…. )

    Somehow we just now thing of it as "shitjobs" well our parents had shit jobs in 60's and if you adjusted their min wage to today they would be over 20 dollars an hour. Oh also they had pensions.

    More or less our grandparents fought for fair wages for workers and then our parents took advantage of it , tore the system down , got rid of pensions and replaced them with 401K's ( not only insuring they are paid but any stock they own went up in price ) while tearing away at unions being worthless and the fed giving us a substandard minimum wage.

    Sorry this stuff drives me nuts , sick of people saying " not were you should work " or " find a better job " that's not the problem. Sorry to say but it really is the boomer generation. That's not a blanked of every one that fits into that category but a large amount.

    You know I keep forgetting this.  Min wage was a sustainable living for so long and we got away from that.

    I change my stance on Living Wage.  Raise the minimum wage higher.
    I have to say having actual discussion without insults is so refreshing then a comment section on Facebook. Also sorry to go off topic

    I think in the age of the internet companies cannot hide behind shitty things the way they used too. I’m sure much more is going to come out about this. 
    We throw in the occasional FU in here too, lol.  But I do know what you mean.

    Here?  Nooooo!  :lol:
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 26,494
    inflation has far surpassed the increase in the minimum wage. 
    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • PoncierPoncier Posts: 12,416
    inflation has far surpassed the increase in the minimum wage. 
    Yeah in like the 1980's
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • Matts3221Matts3221 Posts: 537
    A $15 minimum, or “living” wage has sounded pretty reasonable to me for awhile.  As someone who is going to own a small business/practice, I can’t picture myself paying someone less than that with at least some basic benefits 

    With that being said, I have found it confusing lately when I see signs for places hiring for much over the $15 living wage that many have demanded, and these places can’t find workers.  I’ve heard the argument that the unemployment benefits are not causing this, and that not having a $15 living wage is the reason, but I guess I’m not connecting those dots since these jobs that are offering $18-20 are remaining empty.
    I think a large part is no one wants to work with the public. I worked retail starting at 16 and thru college. It sucks , you get yelled at non stop , you can follow the rules but if the customer is upset then why did you not break said rule ? Had I done it without the customer getting angry i would have gotten in trouble for breaking a rule. It’s lose lose. 

    Then factor in the past year and a half having to argue with customers without mask ect .. the verbal abuse I have witness is insane while waiting to check out at the grocery store, I was speaking up for them since they can’t really say anything. However I stopped because people are crazy , someone pulled a gun on a cashier in my town because they did not have toliet paper. 

    Also a lot of those jobs are part time or just short enough that they don’t have to give benefits. 

    I honestly think some are just feed up with the system or are getting work else where . We have a 2.6% unemployment level in our state and everyplace I drive by has a “ now hiring “
  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 23,315
    Matts3221 said:
    A $15 minimum, or “living” wage has sounded pretty reasonable to me for awhile.  As someone who is going to own a small business/practice, I can’t picture myself paying someone less than that with at least some basic benefits 

    With that being said, I have found it confusing lately when I see signs for places hiring for much over the $15 living wage that many have demanded, and these places can’t find workers.  I’ve heard the argument that the unemployment benefits are not causing this, and that not having a $15 living wage is the reason, but I guess I’m not connecting those dots since these jobs that are offering $18-20 are remaining empty.
    I think a large part is no one wants to work with the public. I worked retail starting at 16 and thru college. It sucks , you get yelled at non stop , you can follow the rules but if the customer is upset then why did you not break said rule ? Had I done it without the customer getting angry i would have gotten in trouble for breaking a rule. It’s lose lose. 

    Then factor in the past year and a half having to argue with customers without mask ect .. the verbal abuse I have witness is insane while waiting to check out at the grocery store, I was speaking up for them since they can’t really say anything. However I stopped because people are crazy , someone pulled a gun on a cashier in my town because they did not have toliet paper. 

    Also a lot of those jobs are part time or just short enough that they don’t have to give benefits. 

    I honestly think some are just feed up with the system or are getting work else where . We have a 2.6% unemployment level in our state and everyplace I drive by has a “ now hiring “
    Don’t you know there’s much money to be made by “influencers” (what an odd concept), those who sell themselves/their bodies on OnlyFans, etc. 
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 34,300
    edited May 27
    Matts3221 said:
    A $15 minimum, or “living” wage has sounded pretty reasonable to me for awhile.  As someone who is going to own a small business/practice, I can’t picture myself paying someone less than that with at least some basic benefits 

    With that being said, I have found it confusing lately when I see signs for places hiring for much over the $15 living wage that many have demanded, and these places can’t find workers.  I’ve heard the argument that the unemployment benefits are not causing this, and that not having a $15 living wage is the reason, but I guess I’m not connecting those dots since these jobs that are offering $18-20 are remaining empty.
    I think a large part is no one wants to work with the public. I worked retail starting at 16 and thru college. It sucks , you get yelled at non stop , you can follow the rules but if the customer is upset then why did you not break said rule ? Had I done it without the customer getting angry i would have gotten in trouble for breaking a rule. It’s lose lose. 

    Then factor in the past year and a half having to argue with customers without mask ect .. the verbal abuse I have witness is insane while waiting to check out at the grocery store, I was speaking up for them since they can’t really say anything. However I stopped because people are crazy , someone pulled a gun on a cashier in my town because they did not have toliet paper. 

    Also a lot of those jobs are part time or just short enough that they don’t have to give benefits. 

    I honestly think some are just feed up with the system or are getting work else where . We have a 2.6% unemployment level in our state and everyplace I drive by has a “ now hiring “

    "I think a large part is no one wants to work with the public."

    Oh is that the truth!  Even in a business as relatively low key as a bookstore working with the public can be a real drag at times.  I can't imagine working in a large store anymore (did that many years ago).  I don't miss working in the bookstore (I just stock records after hours nowadays).
    Part of the problem (at least here in America) is that for too long people have been willing or even desiring to buy cheap crap at low prices. 
    Scenario one:  You can go into a big box store and buy a piece of shit that will last one year.  Then when it breaks, you go back and buy the same piece of shit and, assuming you are not concerned about environmental issues, don't care because it was cheap.
    The solution to that is to have stores that are more specialized (instead of Walmart, you have a hardware store, a fabric store, a furniture store, a record store, etc, etc.).  In these more specialized stores, you have better quality merchandise and excellent customer service rendered by well paid, qualified staff.  BUT WAIT! you say, YOU'D HAVE TO PAY MORE.  NO ONE WANTS TO PAY MORE!  Therein lies the crux of the problem (we like CHEAP), but there is  more to it than that:
    Scenario two: You go into a more specialized store that has great customer service and quality products that are more durable and you buy a better version of the product you bought in scenario one.  The cost is twice what it was in scenario one BUT the difference is that the more durable, quality product is going to last four years instead of one.  So essence, what you've gained is a more pleasant and rewarding shopping experience, the satisfaction of supporting a store that pays it's employees well, and a product that, in the end, actually costs half as much when factoring cost per year.  OH, and you help the environment!

    I've been suggesting these ideas since well back in the 1980's when I read some of Wendell Berry's fine books of essays that much more eloquently put forth these same general principles. I find it extremely discouraging that all these years later, we have gone in the exact opposite direction.  Using simple logic, it is easy to surmise that continuing in this direction, this will not end well.
    Post edited by brianlux on
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 6,104
    brianlux said:
    Matts3221 said:
    A $15 minimum, or “living” wage has sounded pretty reasonable to me for awhile.  As someone who is going to own a small business/practice, I can’t picture myself paying someone less than that with at least some basic benefits 

    With that being said, I have found it confusing lately when I see signs for places hiring for much over the $15 living wage that many have demanded, and these places can’t find workers.  I’ve heard the argument that the unemployment benefits are not causing this, and that not having a $15 living wage is the reason, but I guess I’m not connecting those dots since these jobs that are offering $18-20 are remaining empty.
    I think a large part is no one wants to work with the public. I worked retail starting at 16 and thru college. It sucks , you get yelled at non stop , you can follow the rules but if the customer is upset then why did you not break said rule ? Had I done it without the customer getting angry i would have gotten in trouble for breaking a rule. It’s lose lose. 

    Then factor in the past year and a half having to argue with customers without mask ect .. the verbal abuse I have witness is insane while waiting to check out at the grocery store, I was speaking up for them since they can’t really say anything. However I stopped because people are crazy , someone pulled a gun on a cashier in my town because they did not have toliet paper. 

    Also a lot of those jobs are part time or just short enough that they don’t have to give benefits. 

    I honestly think some are just feed up with the system or are getting work else where . We have a 2.6% unemployment level in our state and everyplace I drive by has a “ now hiring “

    "I think a large part is no one wants to work with the public."

    Oh is that the truth!  Even in a business as relatively low key as a bookstore working with the public can be a real drag at times.  I can't imagine working in a large store anymore (did that many years ago).  I don't miss working in the bookstore (I just stock records after hours nowadays).
    Part of the problem (at least here in America) is that for too long people have been willing or even desiring to buy cheap crap at low prices. 
    Scenario one:  You can go into a big box store and buy a piece of shit that will last one year.  Then when it breaks, you go back and buy the same piece of shit and, assuming you are not concerned about environmental issues, don't care because it was cheap.
    The solution to that is to have stores that are more specialized (instead of Walmart, you have a hardware store, a fabric store, a furniture store, a record store, etc, etc.).  In these more specialized stores, you have better quality merchandise and excellent customer service rendered by well paid, qualified staff.  BUT WAIT! you say, YOU'D HAVE TO PAY MORE.  NO ONE WANTS TO PAY MORE!  Therein lies the crux of the problem (we like CHEAP), but there is  more to it than that:
    Scenario two: You go into a more specialized store that has great customer service and quality products that are more durable and you buy a better version of the product you bought in scenario one.  The cost is twice what it was in scenario one BUT the difference is that the more durable, quality product is going to last four years instead of one.  So essence, what you've gained is a more pleasant and rewarding shopping experience, the satisfaction of supporting a store that pays it's employees well, and a product that, in the end, actually costs half as much when factoring cost per year.  OH, and you help the environment!

    I've been suggesting these ideas since well back in the 1980's when I read some of Wendell Berry's fine books of essays that much more eloquently put forth these same general principles. I find it extremely discouraging that all these years later, we have gone in the exact opposite direction.  Using simple logic, it is easy to surmise that continuing in this direction, this will not end well.
    The problem with scenario one isn’t just people don’t want to pay more for better goods, but you pay more for the same thing at those smaller stores too. I agree it’s a problem, and I hate big stores like Lowe’s and Home Depot because people never know what you’re talking about. I have a 3-person rule, it’s always the third person I ask that can tell me where something is. But when I got to a local hardware store I find myself paying 50% more for the exact same item. A spark plug for my lawn mower might be $6 at Home Depot, it’s going to be $9 at Ace for the exact same item. As much as I want to support smaller stores, I’m not a charity and I’m not up for donating to a small business, which I feel like I’m doing when I shop there.
    I understand the overheard us going to be more on a smaller local store, but I need to keep money in my wallet too. If the cost difference was 10% I would probably shop there, but I find it’s usually much higher.
    Thats true with almost everything, not just hardware. My record store might sell a new album for $30 that I can get for $22 on Amazon. I’m not up for donation $8, a buck or 2 maybe, but not 8.

    The buy and replace is a problem, but I don’t think it’s caused by big stores. It’s cheaper technology and cheap production. Doesn’t have anything to do with who sells it. It’s put repair stores out of business. You can buy a new tv for the price of just the labor to repair the old one, forget the cost of the parts. I had a hard time finding to someone to repair my record player. So few repair places exist that the few that do are slammed and were pretty picky about brands and what they wanted to work on. 
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 34,300
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    Matts3221 said:
    A $15 minimum, or “living” wage has sounded pretty reasonable to me for awhile.  As someone who is going to own a small business/practice, I can’t picture myself paying someone less than that with at least some basic benefits 

    With that being said, I have found it confusing lately when I see signs for places hiring for much over the $15 living wage that many have demanded, and these places can’t find workers.  I’ve heard the argument that the unemployment benefits are not causing this, and that not having a $15 living wage is the reason, but I guess I’m not connecting those dots since these jobs that are offering $18-20 are remaining empty.
    I think a large part is no one wants to work with the public. I worked retail starting at 16 and thru college. It sucks , you get yelled at non stop , you can follow the rules but if the customer is upset then why did you not break said rule ? Had I done it without the customer getting angry i would have gotten in trouble for breaking a rule. It’s lose lose. 

    Then factor in the past year and a half having to argue with customers without mask ect .. the verbal abuse I have witness is insane while waiting to check out at the grocery store, I was speaking up for them since they can’t really say anything. However I stopped because people are crazy , someone pulled a gun on a cashier in my town because they did not have toliet paper. 

    Also a lot of those jobs are part time or just short enough that they don’t have to give benefits. 

    I honestly think some are just feed up with the system or are getting work else where . We have a 2.6% unemployment level in our state and everyplace I drive by has a “ now hiring “

    "I think a large part is no one wants to work with the public."

    Oh is that the truth!  Even in a business as relatively low key as a bookstore working with the public can be a real drag at times.  I can't imagine working in a large store anymore (did that many years ago).  I don't miss working in the bookstore (I just stock records after hours nowadays).
    Part of the problem (at least here in America) is that for too long people have been willing or even desiring to buy cheap crap at low prices. 
    Scenario one:  You can go into a big box store and buy a piece of shit that will last one year.  Then when it breaks, you go back and buy the same piece of shit and, assuming you are not concerned about environmental issues, don't care because it was cheap.
    The solution to that is to have stores that are more specialized (instead of Walmart, you have a hardware store, a fabric store, a furniture store, a record store, etc, etc.).  In these more specialized stores, you have better quality merchandise and excellent customer service rendered by well paid, qualified staff.  BUT WAIT! you say, YOU'D HAVE TO PAY MORE.  NO ONE WANTS TO PAY MORE!  Therein lies the crux of the problem (we like CHEAP), but there is  more to it than that:
    Scenario two: You go into a more specialized store that has great customer service and quality products that are more durable and you buy a better version of the product you bought in scenario one.  The cost is twice what it was in scenario one BUT the difference is that the more durable, quality product is going to last four years instead of one.  So essence, what you've gained is a more pleasant and rewarding shopping experience, the satisfaction of supporting a store that pays it's employees well, and a product that, in the end, actually costs half as much when factoring cost per year.  OH, and you help the environment!

    I've been suggesting these ideas since well back in the 1980's when I read some of Wendell Berry's fine books of essays that much more eloquently put forth these same general principles. I find it extremely discouraging that all these years later, we have gone in the exact opposite direction.  Using simple logic, it is easy to surmise that continuing in this direction, this will not end well.
    The problem with scenario one isn’t just people don’t want to pay more for better goods, but you pay more for the same thing at those smaller stores too. I agree it’s a problem, and I hate big stores like Lowe’s and Home Depot because people never know what you’re talking about. I have a 3-person rule, it’s always the third person I ask that can tell me where something is. But when I got to a local hardware store I find myself paying 50% more for the exact same item. A spark plug for my lawn mower might be $6 at Home Depot, it’s going to be $9 at Ace for the exact same item. As much as I want to support smaller stores, I’m not a charity and I’m not up for donating to a small business, which I feel like I’m doing when I shop there.
    I understand the overheard us going to be more on a smaller local store, but I need to keep money in my wallet too. If the cost difference was 10% I would probably shop there, but I find it’s usually much higher.
    Thats true with almost everything, not just hardware. My record store might sell a new album for $30 that I can get for $22 on Amazon. I’m not up for donation $8, a buck or 2 maybe, but not 8.

    The buy and replace is a problem, but I don’t think it’s caused by big stores. It’s cheaper technology and cheap production. Doesn’t have anything to do with who sells it. It’s put repair stores out of business. You can buy a new tv for the price of just the labor to repair the old one, forget the cost of the parts. I had a hard time finding to someone to repair my record player. So few repair places exist that the few that do are slammed and were pretty picky about brands and what they wanted to work on. 

    Cheap production is certainly a part of the problem.  Americans love cheap goods, regardless of the fact that they break down faster. 
    A major component of what I am suggesting includes higher production standards, and these exist in ever decreasing numbers.   Without higher production standards, what I am suggesting cannot happen.  If people demanded higher quality, more durable goods and were willing to pay a higher price up front knowing that the item would last longer and save them money in the long run, my idea would work.  But too many people are willing to settle for cheap garbage products that break down faster. 
    An example of what I'm talking about:  You can buy a cheap Teflon coated pan which puts molecules of Teflon into you body that you will never get rid of (read up on that, it's scary) and will chip and get tossed in a few years, or you can buy a quality stainless steel Revere Ware pan that will last for generations.  The Revere Ware is a far better deal, hands down.
    Another example: In 2008 I could have bought a Chevy Avio for $12,000.  Instead, I bought a Prius for $24,000.  The Avio might last 100K miles.  My Prius will probably last at least 300K miles.  The Prius is a better deal.  (Plus, the amount of money I will save in gas over the lifetime of the Prius will cover a large percentage of the original purchase price- I've done the math.)
    Another example:  When my step daughter worked for Sketchers, I bought a pare of shoes for walking.  They were about $40 and broke down in about 4 months.  Later, I bough a pair of Vasque ar R.E.I.  Those cost about $120 and after two years, replacing the insoles, they are still in great shape.  The Vasque were a far better deal and much better for my feet.
    Think about this.  I'm sure you could come up with more examples like the above. 
    It's ludicrous the way many consumers think about their spending.  Wasteful and illogical. 
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,568
    dankind said:
    brianlux said:
    dankind said:
    I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I've worked in/managed independent book/record shops such as Bull Moose, and I've worked in corporate book/record shops such as Tower Records. The latter always managed to look after their employees better. There are protocols in place. Independent shops, you're basically left with navigating your way around the business owners' moods along with your actual job.

    Hopefully, the pandemic exposed (and continues to expose) just how shitty employees for small business owners have it and just how selfish and deplorable their bosses are.

    That's very unfortunate.  It's too bad more small business owners aren't like my wife and her business partner.  They often put their employees before themselves.  In tough times, they both took pay cuts so their employees could continue to work.  They've cooked and taken food to employees when they've been sick and have been very flexible and generous when they've been in need.  In 38 years they've never had one disgruntled employee.
    There was one owner who was an absolute gem. But I was his only employee.

    Every other small business I've worked at basically begat a workplace support group for dealing with the owners.

    And one store had a huge issue with the cash register folks stealing money from the owners, and it took forever for someone to report it because as absolutely morally wrong as it was, employees were not so sure to jump to that conclusion based on how they were treated by said ripped-off owners. 
    I make this point all the time, so I'm glad you said it too.  People rail against corporations, but the fact remains that large companies pay MORE and offer better benefits, job security and formalized HR policies than small businesses, for the comparable work.  This 1950s nostalgia for yeoman business is antiquated.  I'm not saying that every corp is better than every small business, but by and large it is true.  
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,568
    And now I have just another reason to hate Bull Moose.  I ordered from them once or twice and they suck.  Acoustic Sounds is the best company to deal with, in my opinion.  
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 6,104
    brianlux said:
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    Matts3221 said:
    A $15 minimum, or “living” wage has sounded pretty reasonable to me for awhile.  As someone who is going to own a small business/practice, I can’t picture myself paying someone less than that with at least some basic benefits 

    With that being said, I have found it confusing lately when I see signs for places hiring for much over the $15 living wage that many have demanded, and these places can’t find workers.  I’ve heard the argument that the unemployment benefits are not causing this, and that not having a $15 living wage is the reason, but I guess I’m not connecting those dots since these jobs that are offering $18-20 are remaining empty.
    I think a large part is no one wants to work with the public. I worked retail starting at 16 and thru college. It sucks , you get yelled at non stop , you can follow the rules but if the customer is upset then why did you not break said rule ? Had I done it without the customer getting angry i would have gotten in trouble for breaking a rule. It’s lose lose. 

    Then factor in the past year and a half having to argue with customers without mask ect .. the verbal abuse I have witness is insane while waiting to check out at the grocery store, I was speaking up for them since they can’t really say anything. However I stopped because people are crazy , someone pulled a gun on a cashier in my town because they did not have toliet paper. 

    Also a lot of those jobs are part time or just short enough that they don’t have to give benefits. 

    I honestly think some are just feed up with the system or are getting work else where . We have a 2.6% unemployment level in our state and everyplace I drive by has a “ now hiring “

    "I think a large part is no one wants to work with the public."

    Oh is that the truth!  Even in a business as relatively low key as a bookstore working with the public can be a real drag at times.  I can't imagine working in a large store anymore (did that many years ago).  I don't miss working in the bookstore (I just stock records after hours nowadays).
    Part of the problem (at least here in America) is that for too long people have been willing or even desiring to buy cheap crap at low prices. 
    Scenario one:  You can go into a big box store and buy a piece of shit that will last one year.  Then when it breaks, you go back and buy the same piece of shit and, assuming you are not concerned about environmental issues, don't care because it was cheap.
    The solution to that is to have stores that are more specialized (instead of Walmart, you have a hardware store, a fabric store, a furniture store, a record store, etc, etc.).  In these more specialized stores, you have better quality merchandise and excellent customer service rendered by well paid, qualified staff.  BUT WAIT! you say, YOU'D HAVE TO PAY MORE.  NO ONE WANTS TO PAY MORE!  Therein lies the crux of the problem (we like CHEAP), but there is  more to it than that:
    Scenario two: You go into a more specialized store that has great customer service and quality products that are more durable and you buy a better version of the product you bought in scenario one.  The cost is twice what it was in scenario one BUT the difference is that the more durable, quality product is going to last four years instead of one.  So essence, what you've gained is a more pleasant and rewarding shopping experience, the satisfaction of supporting a store that pays it's employees well, and a product that, in the end, actually costs half as much when factoring cost per year.  OH, and you help the environment!

    I've been suggesting these ideas since well back in the 1980's when I read some of Wendell Berry's fine books of essays that much more eloquently put forth these same general principles. I find it extremely discouraging that all these years later, we have gone in the exact opposite direction.  Using simple logic, it is easy to surmise that continuing in this direction, this will not end well.
    The problem with scenario one isn’t just people don’t want to pay more for better goods, but you pay more for the same thing at those smaller stores too. I agree it’s a problem, and I hate big stores like Lowe’s and Home Depot because people never know what you’re talking about. I have a 3-person rule, it’s always the third person I ask that can tell me where something is. But when I got to a local hardware store I find myself paying 50% more for the exact same item. A spark plug for my lawn mower might be $6 at Home Depot, it’s going to be $9 at Ace for the exact same item. As much as I want to support smaller stores, I’m not a charity and I’m not up for donating to a small business, which I feel like I’m doing when I shop there.
    I understand the overheard us going to be more on a smaller local store, but I need to keep money in my wallet too. If the cost difference was 10% I would probably shop there, but I find it’s usually much higher.
    Thats true with almost everything, not just hardware. My record store might sell a new album for $30 that I can get for $22 on Amazon. I’m not up for donation $8, a buck or 2 maybe, but not 8.

    The buy and replace is a problem, but I don’t think it’s caused by big stores. It’s cheaper technology and cheap production. Doesn’t have anything to do with who sells it. It’s put repair stores out of business. You can buy a new tv for the price of just the labor to repair the old one, forget the cost of the parts. I had a hard time finding to someone to repair my record player. So few repair places exist that the few that do are slammed and were pretty picky about brands and what they wanted to work on. 

    Cheap production is certainly a part of the problem.  Americans love cheap goods, regardless of the fact that they break down faster. 
    A major component of what I am suggesting includes higher production standards, and these exist in ever decreasing numbers.   Without higher production standards, what I am suggesting cannot happen.  If people demanded higher quality, more durable goods and were willing to pay a higher price up front knowing that the item would last longer and save them money in the long run, my idea would work.  But too many people are willing to settle for cheap garbage products that break down faster. 
    An example of what I'm talking about:  You can buy a cheap Teflon coated pan which puts molecules of Teflon into you body that you will never get rid of (read up on that, it's scary) and will chip and get tossed in a few years, or you can buy a quality stainless steel Revere Ware pan that will last for generations.  The Revere Ware is a far better deal, hands down.
    Another example: In 2008 I could have bought a Chevy Avio for $12,000.  Instead, I bought a Prius for $24,000.  The Avio might last 100K miles.  My Prius will probably last at least 300K miles.  The Prius is a better deal.  (Plus, the amount of money I will save in gas over the lifetime of the Prius will cover a large percentage of the original purchase price- I've done the math.)
    Another example:  When my step daughter worked for Sketchers, I bought a pare of shoes for walking.  They were about $40 and broke down in about 4 months.  Later, I bough a pair of Vasque ar R.E.I.  Those cost about $120 and after two years, replacing the insoles, they are still in great shape.  The Vasque were a far better deal and much better for my feet.
    Think about this.  I'm sure you could come up with more examples like the above. 
    It's ludicrous the way many consumers think about their spending.  Wasteful and illogical. 
    An old principal of mine used to say “cheap is expensive.” So true.
    There are dozens more examples like yours. How many people have heard their parents say they had a dishwasher, washing machine, lawnmower, etc for 20+ years. Now you replace/major repair those every few years.
    One exception in my experience are TVs. Although way cheaper, they are much better and still last as long. Only TVs I had break in the last 15 years are when I dropped one moving and when my 4 year old shot the screen with a water gun while watching a classic cowboy movie. Either way it’s cheaper to replace than repair.

  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 27,141
    "Cheap is expensive"  That is brilliant!  I have said for years, if you want American jobs in factories back here then stop buying at Wal-Mart.  It's full of cheap, made in China junk.  Sure it's cheap but it isn't quality...

    I do buy throw away work jeans and spend $100 on designer and the quality is clearly visible.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,568
    "Cheap is expensive"  That is brilliant!  I have said for years, if you want American jobs in factories back here then stop buying at Wal-Mart.  It's full of cheap, made in China junk.  Sure it's cheap but it isn't quality...

    I do buy throw away work jeans and spend $100 on designer and the quality is clearly visible.
    It's a mixed bag.  Do you want to pay $2k for a 42" tv?  Probably not.  But if we only buy American, that's what we will pay.  Your iphone will cost 3k, not 1k (if not more).  So by all means, let's bring back the garment industry, shoes, and televisions.  But be prepared for more expensive goods and inflation.  
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 27,141
    mrussel1 said:
    "Cheap is expensive"  That is brilliant!  I have said for years, if you want American jobs in factories back here then stop buying at Wal-Mart.  It's full of cheap, made in China junk.  Sure it's cheap but it isn't quality...

    I do buy throw away work jeans and spend $100 on designer and the quality is clearly visible.
    It's a mixed bag.  Do you want to pay $2k for a 42" tv?  Probably not.  But if we only buy American, that's what we will pay.  Your iphone will cost 3k, not 1k (if not more).  So by all means, let's bring back the garment industry, shoes, and televisions.  But be prepared for more expensive goods and inflation.  
    If it is made better?  By all means.  Most of your Sony TV's are made here too.  PA has a factory there.

    Foreign cars used to be made over seas, cost was cheaper but not American made.  I don't think there is one car dealer that doesn't make their vehicles here in the US and they aren't over priced like you mention.

    My Tundra is 95% made in USA.  In Tejas of all places.
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 6,104
    mrussel1 said:
    "Cheap is expensive"  That is brilliant!  I have said for years, if you want American jobs in factories back here then stop buying at Wal-Mart.  It's full of cheap, made in China junk.  Sure it's cheap but it isn't quality...

    I do buy throw away work jeans and spend $100 on designer and the quality is clearly visible.
    It's a mixed bag.  Do you want to pay $2k for a 42" tv?  Probably not.  But if we only buy American, that's what we will pay.  Your iphone will cost 3k, not 1k (if not more).  So by all means, let's bring back the garment industry, shoes, and televisions.  But be prepared for more expensive goods and inflation.  
    I’m not sure it would be that much more, definitely doubt it would be 3 times more expensive. Making it here means not having to ship halfway around the world, basically shipping twice since most of the shipping contains go back empty to ship again.
    Im always surprised when I buy a tool or something else and see the “made in USA” stamp and resize it’s nearly the same price as the China products. So it can be done at minimal cost.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,568
    mrussel1 said:
    "Cheap is expensive"  That is brilliant!  I have said for years, if you want American jobs in factories back here then stop buying at Wal-Mart.  It's full of cheap, made in China junk.  Sure it's cheap but it isn't quality...

    I do buy throw away work jeans and spend $100 on designer and the quality is clearly visible.
    It's a mixed bag.  Do you want to pay $2k for a 42" tv?  Probably not.  But if we only buy American, that's what we will pay.  Your iphone will cost 3k, not 1k (if not more).  So by all means, let's bring back the garment industry, shoes, and televisions.  But be prepared for more expensive goods and inflation.  
    If it is made better?  By all means.  Most of your Sony TV's are made here too.  PA has a factory there.

    Foreign cars used to be made over seas, cost was cheaper but not American made.  I don't think there is one car dealer that doesn't make their vehicles here in the US and they aren't over priced like you mention.

    My Tundra is 95% made in USA.  In Tejas of all places.
    Cars are different because the cost to ship supplies and then the finished vehicle make it worthwhile to keep the supply chain and manufacturing close to the final destination.  Toyota, specifically, utilizes Just in Time Six Sigma methodology.  They were the innovators of that manufacturing change.  

    And are you sure about Sony TV's?  I'm pretty sure the NA shipments are made in Mexico. 

    Which products do you find that are made overseas are very inferior that you would prefer be made here for 3-4x?
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 27,141
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    "Cheap is expensive"  That is brilliant!  I have said for years, if you want American jobs in factories back here then stop buying at Wal-Mart.  It's full of cheap, made in China junk.  Sure it's cheap but it isn't quality...

    I do buy throw away work jeans and spend $100 on designer and the quality is clearly visible.
    It's a mixed bag.  Do you want to pay $2k for a 42" tv?  Probably not.  But if we only buy American, that's what we will pay.  Your iphone will cost 3k, not 1k (if not more).  So by all means, let's bring back the garment industry, shoes, and televisions.  But be prepared for more expensive goods and inflation.  
    If it is made better?  By all means.  Most of your Sony TV's are made here too.  PA has a factory there.

    Foreign cars used to be made over seas, cost was cheaper but not American made.  I don't think there is one car dealer that doesn't make their vehicles here in the US and they aren't over priced like you mention.

    My Tundra is 95% made in USA.  In Tejas of all places.
    Cars are different because the cost to ship supplies and then the finished vehicle make it worthwhile to keep the supply chain and manufacturing close to the final destination.  Toyota, specifically, utilizes Just in Time Six Sigma methodology.  They were the innovators of that manufacturing change.  

    And are you sure about Sony TV's?  I'm pretty sure the NA shipments are made in Mexico. 

    Which products do you find that are made overseas are very inferior that you would prefer be made here for 3-4x?
    I just googled it, the plant closed down in 2008... Wow.  Didn't know.

    So for things made better here I like clothes and steel.  I'll start with those two.  Every car I've owned has been made here so I can't tell if one is different than the other but I have driven some over seas and I will tell you that the Suzukis made elsewhere are hunks of junk.

    If we really want to get into living wages and all that good stuff, bringing back good paying jobs would essentially let the consumer buy the more expensive things made here.  Quality of life should  improve.

    Germany focuses on this model, they seem to do all right, no?
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,568
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    "Cheap is expensive"  That is brilliant!  I have said for years, if you want American jobs in factories back here then stop buying at Wal-Mart.  It's full of cheap, made in China junk.  Sure it's cheap but it isn't quality...

    I do buy throw away work jeans and spend $100 on designer and the quality is clearly visible.
    It's a mixed bag.  Do you want to pay $2k for a 42" tv?  Probably not.  But if we only buy American, that's what we will pay.  Your iphone will cost 3k, not 1k (if not more).  So by all means, let's bring back the garment industry, shoes, and televisions.  But be prepared for more expensive goods and inflation.  
    I’m not sure it would be that much more, definitely doubt it would be 3 times more expensive. Making it here means not having to ship halfway around the world, basically shipping twice since most of the shipping contains go back empty to ship again.
    Im always surprised when I buy a tool or something else and see the “made in USA” stamp and resize it’s nearly the same price as the China products. So it can be done at minimal cost.
    A 21" tube tv in teh 70's, made in the US, cost about $500.  Think about that.  That's over 3K in today's dollars.  Now there's lots of reasons for that, but cheap labor is absolutely part of it.  How much was your 24" televsion in the 90's?  Mine was over $500.  It was a huge investment.  The cost of televisions has absolutely run inverted to the inflation rate.  

    And btw @tempo_n_groove, cars are much more expensive today than they were in the 60's, 70's, etc.  Now there's regulation, technology, and lots of factors.  But I don't agree with your premise that cars are not expensive.  They are really fucking expensive.  However credit is WAY cheaper than it was during previous generations. 


  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 27,141
    mrussel1 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    "Cheap is expensive"  That is brilliant!  I have said for years, if you want American jobs in factories back here then stop buying at Wal-Mart.  It's full of cheap, made in China junk.  Sure it's cheap but it isn't quality...

    I do buy throw away work jeans and spend $100 on designer and the quality is clearly visible.
    It's a mixed bag.  Do you want to pay $2k for a 42" tv?  Probably not.  But if we only buy American, that's what we will pay.  Your iphone will cost 3k, not 1k (if not more).  So by all means, let's bring back the garment industry, shoes, and televisions.  But be prepared for more expensive goods and inflation.  
    I’m not sure it would be that much more, definitely doubt it would be 3 times more expensive. Making it here means not having to ship halfway around the world, basically shipping twice since most of the shipping contains go back empty to ship again.
    Im always surprised when I buy a tool or something else and see the “made in USA” stamp and resize it’s nearly the same price as the China products. So it can be done at minimal cost.
    A 21" tube tv in teh 70's, made in the US, cost about $500.  Think about that.  That's over 3K in today's dollars.  Now there's lots of reasons for that, but cheap labor is absolutely part of it.  How much was your 24" televsion in the 90's?  Mine was over $500.  It was a huge investment.  The cost of televisions has absolutely run inverted to the inflation rate.  

    And btw @tempo_n_groove, cars are much more expensive today than they were in the 60's, 70's, etc.  Now there's regulation, technology, and lots of factors.  But I don't agree with your premise that cars are not expensive.  They are really fucking expensive.  However credit is WAY cheaper than it was during previous generations. 


    Cars are expensive but I can still buy a Tundra that isn't 3x the price of a F150.
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