Both Riley Cooper's n-word tirade and Incognitio's bullying scandal were from 2013. As I put it above, pre-woke-NFL. They'd both be done now. Especially Cooper.
Cooper was locker room talk just like Incognitos was though. I would bet that they both still speak like that still with their teammates.
Both Riley Cooper's n-word tirade and Incognitio's bullying scandal were from 2013. As I put it above, pre-woke-NFL. They'd both be done now. Especially Cooper.
Cooper was locker room talk just like Incognitos was though. I would bet that they both still speak like that still with their teammates.
Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying that Cooper continued to say the n-word around teammates after being caught on tape saying it?
Either way though, my point is that things are way more sensitive these days than they were just six or seven years ago. Not just in the NFL, but everywhere.
In the latest episode of "Cancelled" the world finds out that Jon Gruden is.... an asshole! (shocking!)
I'm not sure I'll see a person on this forum who thinks Gruden should still be a coach... his career in pro sports is likely over after it was revealed that he's a dooshbag.
I wanted to use this example.. one of many... as an example of the dangers of labelling these circumstances "Cancelled."
See the problem with Gruden is that there will be a lot of folks who believe that is another victim of "cancel culture."
"Ahh.. I see Gruden got cancelled."
Look, if people are going to continue with this word... I think it's more fitting that we change the language a bit here.
Jon Gruden did not GET cancelled. Jon Gruden cancelled himself.
The spin is already in effect. On the conservative radio they were just asking how players that have been found guilty of domestic abuse, drunk driving, accused of sexual assault etc, get to keep their careers, but this guy doesn't because of his words from 10 years ago. Oh and they are having rappers on the halftime show or something...the outrage is being generated already.
That's a pretty reasonable argument to make if you feel like making an argument.
A lot of times, it comes down to optics. Ray Rice knocked his girlfriend out on video, never played another down. Joe Mixon was convicted of punching a woman in the face, and he's leading my fantasy team in points. Gruden having everything in writing is a deathnail.
Oddly, remember that Eagles player that said the N-word on camera at a concert? He didn't even get cut. That was pre-woke-NFL though.
Richie Incognito.
How this man still has a job is beyond me...Oh wait. He plays for the Raiders!
incognito has always been a pos. when he played for the st louis rams he was always getting handsy with ladies. one of them was my gf at a club one time. what was i gonna do, fight him about it?
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
In the latest episode of "Cancelled" the world finds out that Jon Gruden is.... an asshole! (shocking!)
I'm not sure I'll see a person on this forum who thinks Gruden should still be a coach... his career in pro sports is likely over after it was revealed that he's a dooshbag.
I wanted to use this example.. one of many... as an example of the dangers of labelling these circumstances "Cancelled."
See the problem with Gruden is that there will be a lot of folks who believe that is another victim of "cancel culture."
"Ahh.. I see Gruden got cancelled."
Look, if people are going to continue with this word... I think it's more fitting that we change the language a bit here.
Jon Gruden did not GET cancelled. Jon Gruden cancelled himself.
The spin is already in effect. On the conservative radio they were just asking how players that have been found guilty of domestic abuse, drunk driving, accused of sexual assault etc, get to keep their careers, but this guy doesn't because of his words from 10 years ago. Oh and they are having rappers on the halftime show or something...the outrage is being generated already.
That's a pretty reasonable argument to make if you feel like making an argument.
A lot of times, it comes down to optics. Ray Rice knocked his girlfriend out on video, never played another down. Joe Mixon was convicted of punching a woman in the face, and he's leading my fantasy team in points. Gruden having everything in writing is a deathnail.
Oddly, remember that Eagles player that said the N-word on camera at a concert? He didn't even get cut. That was pre-woke-NFL though.
Fascinating!
I agree that this stuff opens many cans of worms. In general, when you reference "pre-woke" NFL.... would you say "wokeness" is a good thing or a bad thing?
I think this is a great question — certainly not a black and white one (no pun, yada yada). It can be taken to levels of extreme, even inanity, and to me, many times used to appear PC.
There's no way teammates just accepted that out of those guys simply because the league had yet to be woke. I don't really know what happened in the locker room but I'm sure it wasn't nice and comfortable for a while. However, players tend to respect guy that can play and put in effort. I'm sure every white player in the NFL is MAGA. And most of the black ones are not. They all live with it; better than most of us do.
I think teammates respected Incognito because the guy he was bullying was seen as "soft." And football is ultimately a "tough guy" sport and culture. Cooper's tirade? When it happened I figured he was done. This was like 15 years after John Rocker faded away into nothing after his tirade.
I don't think the key difference here is "woke" vs. "pre-woke." I think it's "player" vs. "coach/commentator." I think as long as these guys went out and produced, the teammates were willing to swallow it from a teammate. But that teammate doesn't hire coaches, sign players, or determine who gets to start. Maybe this is why Chris Kluwe ("distraction" punter who supported GLBTQ rights) didn't make the team (after the Vikings picked homophobe special teams coach Mike Priefer over him). Gruden literally said that gay players should not be in the league and then he got a job that has a key role in decided who makes the team.
The other difference is "one comment" vs. "a plethora of comments." We're now looking at dozens of emails going after just about anyone you can think of (including football players, given his distaste for taking safety measures for the very guys busting heads for his 9-figure salary).
Riley Cooper? I suppose I'm not even allowed to say he's a racist since it was eight years ago. But he is. Well, I know lots of racists with jobs. What I don't know is anyone who sends professional emails using every slur in the book and going after every group in the book. A racist co-worker? I'm sure I have a few. A racist at the top? I hope not. Riley Cooper's presence hurt the league's image, I suppose but he didn't actively hurt the league or the team simply by being there. Gruden did...at least he certainly may have.
The ideal you want to protect by giving him a pass needs to die.
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There's no way teammates just accepted that out of those guys simply because the league had yet to be woke. I don't really know what happened in the locker room but I'm sure it wasn't nice and comfortable for a while. However, players tend to respect guy that can play and put in effort. I'm sure every white player in the NFL is MAGA. And most of the black ones are not. They all live with it; better than most of us do.
I think teammates respected Incognito because the guy he was bullying was seen as "soft." And football is ultimately a "tough guy" sport and culture. Cooper's tirade? When it happened I figured he was done. This was like 15 years after John Rocker faded away into nothing after his tirade.
I don't think the key difference here is "woke" vs. "pre-woke." I think it's "player" vs. "coach/commentator." I think as long as these guys went out and produced, the teammates were willing to swallow it from a teammate. But that teammate doesn't hire coaches, sign players, or determine who gets to start. Maybe this is why Chris Kluwe ("distraction" punter who supported GLBTQ rights) didn't make the team (after the Vikings picked homophobe special teams coach Mike Priefer over him). Gruden literally said that gay players should not be in the league and then he got a job that has a key role in decided who makes the team.
The other difference is "one comment" vs. "a plethora of comments." We're now looking at dozens of emails going after just about anyone you can think of (including football players, given his distaste for taking safety measures for the very guys busting heads for his 9-figure salary).
Riley Cooper? I suppose I'm not even allowed to say he's a racist since it was eight years ago. But he is. Well, I know lots of racists with jobs. What I don't know is anyone who sends professional emails using every slur in the book and going after every group in the book. A racist co-worker? I'm sure I have a few. A racist at the top? I hope not. Riley Cooper's presence hurt the league's image, I suppose but he didn't actively hurt the league or the team simply by being there. Gruden did...at least he certainly may have.
The ideal you want to protect by giving him a pass needs to die.
I'll just address the bolded...
1) Not talking about teammates accepting him. I'm saying if he did the exact same thing now, he'd be gone. Conversely, if Gruden's emails came out then, he wouldn't be forced to resign.
2) No, he didn't literally say that. He said that the league pressured Jeff Fisher into drafting Michael Sam because he's gay. Not sure if that's true. But he didn't say gay players shouldn't be in the league.
3) This is just dumb.
4) Not sure what ideal you're suggesting anyone is trying protect. Nobody saying Gruden should get a pass. I'm just saying he would've gotten one six or seven years ago.
There's no way teammates just accepted that out of those guys simply because the league had yet to be woke. I don't really know what happened in the locker room but I'm sure it wasn't nice and comfortable for a while. However, players tend to respect guy that can play and put in effort. I'm sure every white player in the NFL is MAGA. And most of the black ones are not. They all live with it; better than most of us do.
I think teammates respected Incognito because the guy he was bullying was seen as "soft." And football is ultimately a "tough guy" sport and culture. Cooper's tirade? When it happened I figured he was done. This was like 15 years after John Rocker faded away into nothing after his tirade.
I don't think the key difference here is "woke" vs. "pre-woke." I think it's "player" vs. "coach/commentator." I think as long as these guys went out and produced, the teammates were willing to swallow it from a teammate. But that teammate doesn't hire coaches, sign players, or determine who gets to start. Maybe this is why Chris Kluwe ("distraction" punter who supported GLBTQ rights) didn't make the team (after the Vikings picked homophobe special teams coach Mike Priefer over him). Gruden literally said that gay players should not be in the league and then he got a job that has a key role in decided who makes the team.
The other difference is "one comment" vs. "a plethora of comments." We're now looking at dozens of emails going after just about anyone you can think of (including football players, given his distaste for taking safety measures for the very guys busting heads for his 9-figure salary).
Riley Cooper? I suppose I'm not even allowed to say he's a racist since it was eight years ago. But he is. Well, I know lots of racists with jobs. What I don't know is anyone who sends professional emails using every slur in the book and going after every group in the book. A racist co-worker? I'm sure I have a few. A racist at the top? I hope not. Riley Cooper's presence hurt the league's image, I suppose but he didn't actively hurt the league or the team simply by being there. Gruden did...at least he certainly may have.
The ideal you want to protect by giving him a pass needs to die.
I'll just address the bolded...
1) Not talking about teammates accepting him. I'm saying if he did the exact same thing now, he'd be gone. Conversely, if Gruden's emails came out then, he wouldn't be forced to resign.
2) No, he didn't literally say that. He said that the league pressured Jeff Fisher into drafting Michael Sam because he's gay. Not sure if that's true. But he didn't say gay players shouldn't be in the league.
3) This is just dumb.
4) Not sure what ideal you're suggesting anyone is trying protect. Nobody saying Gruden should get a pass. I'm just saying he would've gotten one six or seven years ago.
Is Riley Cooper a racist?
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There's no way teammates just accepted that out of those guys simply because the league had yet to be woke. I don't really know what happened in the locker room but I'm sure it wasn't nice and comfortable for a while. However, players tend to respect guy that can play and put in effort. I'm sure every white player in the NFL is MAGA. And most of the black ones are not. They all live with it; better than most of us do.
I think teammates respected Incognito because the guy he was bullying was seen as "soft." And football is ultimately a "tough guy" sport and culture. Cooper's tirade? When it happened I figured he was done. This was like 15 years after John Rocker faded away into nothing after his tirade.
I don't think the key difference here is "woke" vs. "pre-woke." I think it's "player" vs. "coach/commentator." I think as long as these guys went out and produced, the teammates were willing to swallow it from a teammate. But that teammate doesn't hire coaches, sign players, or determine who gets to start. Maybe this is why Chris Kluwe ("distraction" punter who supported GLBTQ rights) didn't make the team (after the Vikings picked homophobe special teams coach Mike Priefer over him). Gruden literally said that gay players should not be in the league and then he got a job that has a key role in decided who makes the team.
The other difference is "one comment" vs. "a plethora of comments." We're now looking at dozens of emails going after just about anyone you can think of (including football players, given his distaste for taking safety measures for the very guys busting heads for his 9-figure salary).
Riley Cooper? I suppose I'm not even allowed to say he's a racist since it was eight years ago. But he is. Well, I know lots of racists with jobs. What I don't know is anyone who sends professional emails using every slur in the book and going after every group in the book. A racist co-worker? I'm sure I have a few. A racist at the top? I hope not. Riley Cooper's presence hurt the league's image, I suppose but he didn't actively hurt the league or the team simply by being there. Gruden did...at least he certainly may have.
The ideal you want to protect by giving him a pass needs to die.
I'll just address the bolded...
1) Not talking about teammates accepting him. I'm saying if he did the exact same thing now, he'd be gone. Conversely, if Gruden's emails came out then, he wouldn't be forced to resign.
2) No, he didn't literally say that. He said that the league pressured Jeff Fisher into drafting Michael Sam because he's gay. Not sure if that's true. But he didn't say gay players shouldn't be in the league.
3) This is just dumb.
4) Not sure what ideal you're suggesting anyone is trying protect. Nobody saying Gruden should get a pass. I'm just saying he would've gotten one six or seven years ago.
Is Riley Cooper a racist?
Yes, I would submit to you that anyone that would say "I want to fight ever n***** here" is, in fact, a racist. What's dumb if you saying "I suppose I'm not even allowed to say he's racist since it was eight years ago."
There's no way teammates just accepted that out of those guys simply because the league had yet to be woke. I don't really know what happened in the locker room but I'm sure it wasn't nice and comfortable for a while. However, players tend to respect guy that can play and put in effort. I'm sure every white player in the NFL is MAGA. And most of the black ones are not. They all live with it; better than most of us do.
I think teammates respected Incognito because the guy he was bullying was seen as "soft." And football is ultimately a "tough guy" sport and culture. Cooper's tirade? When it happened I figured he was done. This was like 15 years after John Rocker faded away into nothing after his tirade.
I don't think the key difference here is "woke" vs. "pre-woke." I think it's "player" vs. "coach/commentator." I think as long as these guys went out and produced, the teammates were willing to swallow it from a teammate. But that teammate doesn't hire coaches, sign players, or determine who gets to start. Maybe this is why Chris Kluwe ("distraction" punter who supported GLBTQ rights) didn't make the team (after the Vikings picked homophobe special teams coach Mike Priefer over him). Gruden literally said that gay players should not be in the league and then he got a job that has a key role in decided who makes the team.
The other difference is "one comment" vs. "a plethora of comments." We're now looking at dozens of emails going after just about anyone you can think of (including football players, given his distaste for taking safety measures for the very guys busting heads for his 9-figure salary).
Riley Cooper? I suppose I'm not even allowed to say he's a racist since it was eight years ago. But he is. Well, I know lots of racists with jobs. What I don't know is anyone who sends professional emails using every slur in the book and going after every group in the book. A racist co-worker? I'm sure I have a few. A racist at the top? I hope not. Riley Cooper's presence hurt the league's image, I suppose but he didn't actively hurt the league or the team simply by being there. Gruden did...at least he certainly may have.
The ideal you want to protect by giving him a pass needs to die.
I'll just address the bolded...
1) Not talking about teammates accepting him. I'm saying if he did the exact same thing now, he'd be gone. Conversely, if Gruden's emails came out then, he wouldn't be forced to resign.
2) No, he didn't literally say that. He said that the league pressured Jeff Fisher into drafting Michael Sam because he's gay. Not sure if that's true. But he didn't say gay players shouldn't be in the league.
3) This is just dumb.
4) Not sure what ideal you're suggesting anyone is trying protect. Nobody saying Gruden should get a pass. I'm just saying he would've gotten one six or seven years ago.
Is Riley Cooper a racist?
Yes, I would submit to you that anyone that would say "I want to fight ever n***** here" is, in fact, a racist. What's dumb if you saying "I suppose I'm not even allowed to say he's racist since it was eight years ago."
I gave you the opportunity to say "it was eight years ago" or "it was one time." And you didn't. That leaves me with a bit of egg on my face. But most of the right and even middle/left would be willing to say it like that. Most of the anti-wokers would not say that (obviously per anecdotal observation; I have no data).
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There's no way teammates just accepted that out of those guys simply because the league had yet to be woke. I don't really know what happened in the locker room but I'm sure it wasn't nice and comfortable for a while. However, players tend to respect guy that can play and put in effort. I'm sure every white player in the NFL is MAGA. And most of the black ones are not. They all live with it; better than most of us do.
I think teammates respected Incognito because the guy he was bullying was seen as "soft." And football is ultimately a "tough guy" sport and culture. Cooper's tirade? When it happened I figured he was done. This was like 15 years after John Rocker faded away into nothing after his tirade.
I don't think the key difference here is "woke" vs. "pre-woke." I think it's "player" vs. "coach/commentator." I think as long as these guys went out and produced, the teammates were willing to swallow it from a teammate. But that teammate doesn't hire coaches, sign players, or determine who gets to start. Maybe this is why Chris Kluwe ("distraction" punter who supported GLBTQ rights) didn't make the team (after the Vikings picked homophobe special teams coach Mike Priefer over him). Gruden literally said that gay players should not be in the league and then he got a job that has a key role in decided who makes the team.
The other difference is "one comment" vs. "a plethora of comments." We're now looking at dozens of emails going after just about anyone you can think of (including football players, given his distaste for taking safety measures for the very guys busting heads for his 9-figure salary).
Riley Cooper? I suppose I'm not even allowed to say he's a racist since it was eight years ago. But he is. Well, I know lots of racists with jobs. What I don't know is anyone who sends professional emails using every slur in the book and going after every group in the book. A racist co-worker? I'm sure I have a few. A racist at the top? I hope not. Riley Cooper's presence hurt the league's image, I suppose but he didn't actively hurt the league or the team simply by being there. Gruden did...at least he certainly may have.
The ideal you want to protect by giving him a pass needs to die.
I'll just address the bolded...
1) Not talking about teammates accepting him. I'm saying if he did the exact same thing now, he'd be gone. Conversely, if Gruden's emails came out then, he wouldn't be forced to resign.
2) No, he didn't literally say that. He said that the league pressured Jeff Fisher into drafting Michael Sam because he's gay. Not sure if that's true. But he didn't say gay players shouldn't be in the league.
3) This is just dumb.
4) Not sure what ideal you're suggesting anyone is trying protect. Nobody saying Gruden should get a pass. I'm just saying he would've gotten one six or seven years ago.
Is Riley Cooper a racist?
Yes, I would submit to you that anyone that would say "I want to fight ever n***** here" is, in fact, a racist. What's dumb if you saying "I suppose I'm not even allowed to say he's racist since it was eight years ago."
I gave you the opportunity to say "it was eight years ago" or "it was one time." And you didn't. That leaves me with a bit of egg on my face. But most of the right and even middle/left would be willing to say it like that. Most of the anti-wokers would not say that (obviously per anecdotal observation; I have no data).
The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,315
I think the Gruden thing is worse than the Riley Cooper incident just because there was a history of those emails.
Ironically it was Michael Vick and other black players on the Eagles who stepped up and basically saved Riley Cooper's job/career back then by privately and publicly forgiving him. I don't think it is a certainty that he'd immediately be gone in 2021 if his team was quick to stand up for him like they did in 2013. I can't think of any instances of this happening since then...
More food for thought.... between this thread and conversations I have with friends, and videos of sports pundits.... a similar observation is made:
7-10 years ago, you could get away with stuff like this, but not today.
Personal thought here... wow.
I wonder why we tolerated this. I wonder why it was accepted. And I also think that if that's the case... 'cancel culture' or whatever you want to label it... seems to be working. No? Granted... it can be taken too far and out of context but I mean... seeing some of this hateful and unnecessary behaviour.. its baffling that this used to be par for the course.
I feel like hazing is along the same lines too. Something that was accepted before, but not today.
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The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,315
More food for thought.... between this thread and conversations I have with friends, and videos of sports pundits.... a similar observation is made:
7-10 years ago, you could get away with stuff like this, but not today.
Personal thought here... wow.
I wonder why we tolerated this. I wonder why it was accepted. And I also think that if that's the case... 'cancel culture' or whatever you want to label it... seems to be working. No? Granted... it can be taken too far and out of context but I mean... seeing some of this hateful and unnecessary behaviour.. its baffling that this used to be par for the course.
I feel like hazing is along the same lines too. Something that was accepted before, but not today.
Maybe I'm old, but 10 years isn't that long. I'm not convinced time is the biggest issue here. So Gruden was sending the emails 10 years ago but how many people were seeing them? He wasn't on TV saying this stuff.
Football (and men's team sports in general, I suppose) is not a leader in some of these issues. Race? Maybe sometimes. LGBTQ? Hell no. I'd guess the gay bashing in the locker room is still overwhelming (I've read/heard athletes saying it was super prevalent but haven't heard anything for a while).
Ten years ago, I don't think racist outbursts were tolerated and I don't think homophobia was tolerated. At least not significantly more than it is today (in fact maybe a bit less given what's been going on the last five years). I agree with Juggler that Cooper's circumstance in Philly at the time was probably key in keeping him around and the same circumstance could happen now. It was, what, maybe two or three years ago that racist tweets came out from Josh Hader. It came out at the All Star game, players of color forgave him, the home crowd gave him a standing ovation, and he's been the best relief pitcher in baseball ever since.
The biggest difference today from ten years ago may be the amount of scrutiny we have. in 2011, would there ever have been a process that would have uncovered thousands of emails from 2001? There certainly was far less twitter history. And everyone walking around with a video camera that could put something on social media within seconds was in its infancy. I'm 47 years old and I have no memory of a time where dropping an N-bomb was considered OK outside of small like-minded groups. I remember when someone did it on my dorm floor in front of at least a dozen people in 1993. It did not go over well. It was not acceptable. There was nothing to really "cancel" him from...now, had someone been rolling an iphone camera and had it gone viral, may something have happened? Maybe and it would be a reflection of the technology more than the acceptability of what he said.
One problem, I admit, is that the logical conclusion sometimes becomes a purity test of sorts; and a rabbit hole that we cannot dig ourselves out of. "OK, Player X dropped an N-bomb, but Player Y used this racial slur, and then Player Z asked a woman to make him a sandwich, and Player A said he would disown his gay kid if he ever had one via twitter when he was 14 in 2008, and Player B used the "r-word" two years ago." It's difficult to draw lines.
But I'd still maintain the biggest difference between now and ten (or maybe 20) years ago is technology. Now the stupidest things you've said or done are captured on the internet forever. So what do we do with Josh Hader? I don't think we kick him out of MLB for saying gross things when he was a kid. (But I sure as hell don't participate in the standing ovation he got; I thought that was pretty embarrassing). Could he have grown up in that amount of time? Sure. Most people probably don't (except to get smart enough to not put it in writing on the internet) but if we stopped employing every bigot, the economy would crash. If I was a Brewer fan, I would not wear his jersey and I would feel weird cheering for him to succeed. But I cheer for all sorts of unsavory people in sports and other things; they just kept it off twitter.
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More food for thought.... between this thread and conversations I have with friends, and videos of sports pundits.... a similar observation is made:
7-10 years ago, you could get away with stuff like this, but not today.
Personal thought here... wow.
I wonder why we tolerated this. I wonder why it was accepted. And I also think that if that's the case... 'cancel culture' or whatever you want to label it... seems to be working. No? Granted... it can be taken too far and out of context but I mean... seeing some of this hateful and unnecessary behaviour.. its baffling that this used to be par for the course.
I feel like hazing is along the same lines too. Something that was accepted before, but not today.
this is the biggest problem I see with it. I mean, I don't think a person should lose their livelihoods, negatively impacting their lives for pretty much (potentially) ever, because of a tweet or a comment in an interview or comedy routine. (see: Roseanne Barr).
Instead of just cancelling the person altogether, maybe see if they willingly admit to wrongdoing? we've all said/done stupid shit we regret at one time or another. I sincerely hope I wouldn't lose my job over a stupid thing I may have said on camera or in MSN messenger 15 years ago.
it's absurd how stupid it has become, and it just feeds into the "anti-woke" crowd's criticism of it.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,759
More food for thought.... between this thread and conversations I have with friends, and videos of sports pundits.... a similar observation is made:
7-10 years ago, you could get away with stuff like this, but not today.
Personal thought here... wow.
I wonder why we tolerated this. I wonder why it was accepted. And I also think that if that's the case... 'cancel culture' or whatever you want to label it... seems to be working. No? Granted... it can be taken too far and out of context but I mean... seeing some of this hateful and unnecessary behaviour.. its baffling that this used to be par for the course.
I feel like hazing is along the same lines too. Something that was accepted before, but not today.
this is the biggest problem I see with it. I mean, I don't think a person should lose their livelihoods, negatively impacting their lives for pretty much (potentially) ever, because of a tweet or a comment in an interview or comedy routine. (see: Roseanne Barr).
Instead of just cancelling the person altogether, maybe see if they willingly admit to wrongdoing? we've all said/done stupid shit we regret at one time or another. I sincerely hope I wouldn't lose my job over a stupid thing I may have said on camera or in MSN messenger 15 years ago.
it's absurd how stupid it has become, and it just feeds into the "anti-woke" crowd's criticism of it.
Absolutely right on. Who hasn't let some dumb or off the cuff comment slip? I know I have.
Also, I would love to see the use of the word "cancelled" as relates the this thread done away with (no problem with the thread itself), as well as that most insipid of all non-words, "woke".
Edit: by "non-word" I mean woke being used as an adjective. It's a verb! "When I woke up this morning/ you were on my mind."
Not, "They are a group of woke people." No they're not!
Post edited by brianlux on
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
More food for thought.... between this thread and conversations I have with friends, and videos of sports pundits.... a similar observation is made:
7-10 years ago, you could get away with stuff like this, but not today.
Personal thought here... wow.
I wonder why we tolerated this. I wonder why it was accepted. And I also think that if that's the case... 'cancel culture' or whatever you want to label it... seems to be working. No? Granted... it can be taken too far and out of context but I mean... seeing some of this hateful and unnecessary behaviour.. its baffling that this used to be par for the course.
I feel like hazing is along the same lines too. Something that was accepted before, but not today.
this is the biggest problem I see with it. I mean, I don't think a person should lose their livelihoods, negatively impacting their lives for pretty much (potentially) ever, because of a tweet or a comment in an interview or comedy routine. (see: Roseanne Barr).
Instead of just cancelling the person altogether, maybe see if they willingly admit to wrongdoing? we've all said/done stupid shit we regret at one time or another. I sincerely hope I wouldn't lose my job over a stupid thing I may have said on camera or in MSN messenger 15 years ago.
it's absurd how stupid it has become, and it just feeds into the "anti-woke" crowd's criticism of it.
Absolutely right on. Who hasn't let some dumb or off the cuff comment slip? I know I have.
Also, I would love to see the use of the word "cancelled" as relates the this thread done away with (no problem with the thread itself), as well as that most insipid of all non-words, "woke".
Edit: by "non-word" I mean woke being used as an adjective. It's a verb! "When I woke up this morning/ you were on my mind."
Not, "They are a group of woke people." No they're not!
Very few people who have been "cancelled" stay that way for very long. There is usually the reaction to whatever the situation is, and then next thing you know they are right back in the public eye. It would be pretty interesting to see a list of the people who have been called on to be cancelled, because my guess is that most of them have as high of a profile as before.
Very few people who have been "cancelled" stay that way for very long. There is usually the reaction to whatever the situation is, and then next thing you know they are right back in the public eye. It would be pretty interesting to see a list of the people who have been called on to be cancelled, because my guess is that most of them have as high of a profile as before.
Some get more famous. There are definitely people I never knew about until their 'cancellation'.
Very few people who have been "cancelled" stay that way for very long. There is usually the reaction to whatever the situation is, and then next thing you know they are right back in the public eye. It would be pretty interesting to see a list of the people who have been called on to be cancelled, because my guess is that most of them have as high of a profile as before.
There are entertainers that have a difficult time getting work, I think. But it's not usually because the "PC Police" have stopped them. He's too old now, but someone like Bill Cosby would probably legitimately be cancelled. But that's probably OK.
I do think that the reaction to "cancelling" is actually way bigger than the actual cancelling. Analogy: I remember when it came out that Vince Vaughn was a Trump fan (or conservative or whatever). I was on twitter, clicked his name when he was trending and I'll conservatively say I saw 25 people complaining about "everyone criticizing him" for every one person that actually criticized him. He wasn't cancelled; and if he was it was probably a right-wing self-fulfilling prophecy. They created the (illusion of ) cancellation to win points in the culture war.
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Very few people who have been "cancelled" stay that way for very long. There is usually the reaction to whatever the situation is, and then next thing you know they are right back in the public eye. It would be pretty interesting to see a list of the people who have been called on to be cancelled, because my guess is that most of them have as high of a profile as before.
There are entertainers that have a difficult time getting work, I think. But it's not usually because the "PC Police" have stopped them. He's too old now, but someone like Bill Cosby would probably legitimately be cancelled. But that's probably OK.
I do think that the reaction to "cancelling" is actually way bigger than the actual cancelling. Analogy: I remember when it came out that Vince Vaughn was a Trump fan (or conservative or whatever). I was on twitter, clicked his name when he was trending and I'll conservatively say I saw 25 people complaining about "everyone criticizing him" for every one person that actually criticized him. He wasn't cancelled; and if he was it was probably a right-wing self-fulfilling prophecy. They created the (illusion of ) cancellation to win points in the culture war.
agreed. one of the issues is that people assume because a hashtag is trending, that means all the people using it agree with it. people use a hashtag to be part of a social conversation, whether they agree with the premise of the hashtag or not.
More food for thought.... between this thread and conversations I have with friends, and videos of sports pundits.... a similar observation is made:
7-10 years ago, you could get away with stuff like this, but not today.
Personal thought here... wow.
I wonder why we tolerated this. I wonder why it was accepted. And I also think that if that's the case... 'cancel culture' or whatever you want to label it... seems to be working. No? Granted... it can be taken too far and out of context but I mean... seeing some of this hateful and unnecessary behaviour.. its baffling that this used to be par for the course.
I feel like hazing is along the same lines too. Something that was accepted before, but not today.
A locker room is a much different place than an office. It's arrested development for some. Others is a group or brotherhood and they aren't always the most cosmopolitan of people. There have been people like a Chris Carter whom played quite a few years ago that has said publicly that he wouldn't tolerate that type of talk around him. He was one of the few former players that I have ever heard say this.
More food for thought.... between this thread and conversations I have with friends, and videos of sports pundits.... a similar observation is made:
7-10 years ago, you could get away with stuff like this, but not today.
Personal thought here... wow.
I wonder why we tolerated this. I wonder why it was accepted. And I also think that if that's the case... 'cancel culture' or whatever you want to label it... seems to be working. No? Granted... it can be taken too far and out of context but I mean... seeing some of this hateful and unnecessary behaviour.. its baffling that this used to be par for the course.
I feel like hazing is along the same lines too. Something that was accepted before, but not today.
this is the biggest problem I see with it. I mean, I don't think a person should lose their livelihoods, negatively impacting their lives for pretty much (potentially) ever, because of a tweet or a comment in an interview or comedy routine. (see: Roseanne Barr).
Instead of just cancelling the person altogether, maybe see if they willingly admit to wrongdoing? we've all said/done stupid shit we regret at one time or another. I sincerely hope I wouldn't lose my job over a stupid thing I may have said on camera or in MSN messenger 15 years ago.
it's absurd how stupid it has become, and it just feeds into the "anti-woke" crowd's criticism of it.
Absolutely right on. Who hasn't let some dumb or off the cuff comment slip? I know I have.
Also, I would love to see the use of the word "cancelled" as relates the this thread done away with (no problem with the thread itself), as well as that most insipid of all non-words, "woke".
Edit: by "non-word" I mean woke being used as an adjective. It's a verb! "When I woke up this morning/ you were on my mind."
Not, "They are a group of woke people." No they're not!
More food for thought.... between this thread and conversations I have with friends, and videos of sports pundits.... a similar observation is made:
7-10 years ago, you could get away with stuff like this, but not today.
Personal thought here... wow.
I wonder why we tolerated this. I wonder why it was accepted. And I also think that if that's the case... 'cancel culture' or whatever you want to label it... seems to be working. No? Granted... it can be taken too far and out of context but I mean... seeing some of this hateful and unnecessary behaviour.. its baffling that this used to be par for the course.
I feel like hazing is along the same lines too. Something that was accepted before, but not today.
this is the biggest problem I see with it. I mean, I don't think a person should lose their livelihoods, negatively impacting their lives for pretty much (potentially) ever, because of a tweet or a comment in an interview or comedy routine. (see: Roseanne Barr).
Instead of just cancelling the person altogether, maybe see if they willingly admit to wrongdoing? we've all said/done stupid shit we regret at one time or another. I sincerely hope I wouldn't lose my job over a stupid thing I may have said on camera or in MSN messenger 15 years ago.
it's absurd how stupid it has become, and it just feeds into the "anti-woke" crowd's criticism of it.
Absolutely right on. Who hasn't let some dumb or off the cuff comment slip? I know I have.
Also, I would love to see the use of the word "cancelled" as relates the this thread done away with (no problem with the thread itself), as well as that most insipid of all non-words, "woke".
Edit: by "non-word" I mean woke being used as an adjective. It's a verb! "When I woke up this morning/ you were on my mind."
Not, "They are a group of woke people." No they're not!
More food for thought.... between this thread and conversations I have with friends, and videos of sports pundits.... a similar observation is made:
7-10 years ago, you could get away with stuff like this, but not today.
Personal thought here... wow.
I wonder why we tolerated this. I wonder why it was accepted. And I also think that if that's the case... 'cancel culture' or whatever you want to label it... seems to be working. No? Granted... it can be taken too far and out of context but I mean... seeing some of this hateful and unnecessary behaviour.. its baffling that this used to be par for the course.
I feel like hazing is along the same lines too. Something that was accepted before, but not today.
this is the biggest problem I see with it. I mean, I don't think a person should lose their livelihoods, negatively impacting their lives for pretty much (potentially) ever, because of a tweet or a comment in an interview or comedy routine. (see: Roseanne Barr).
Instead of just cancelling the person altogether, maybe see if they willingly admit to wrongdoing? we've all said/done stupid shit we regret at one time or another. I sincerely hope I wouldn't lose my job over a stupid thing I may have said on camera or in MSN messenger 15 years ago.
it's absurd how stupid it has become, and it just feeds into the "anti-woke" crowd's criticism of it.
Absolutely right on. Who hasn't let some dumb or off the cuff comment slip? I know I have.
Also, I would love to see the use of the word "cancelled" as relates the this thread done away with (no problem with the thread itself), as well as that most insipid of all non-words, "woke".
Edit: by "non-word" I mean woke being used as an adjective. It's a verb! "When I woke up this morning/ you were on my mind."
Not, "They are a group of woke people." No they're not!
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Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
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Comments
Either way though, my point is that things are way more sensitive these days than they were just six or seven years ago. Not just in the NFL, but everywhere.
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Imagery.
I think teammates respected Incognito because the guy he was bullying was seen as "soft." And football is ultimately a "tough guy" sport and culture. Cooper's tirade? When it happened I figured he was done. This was like 15 years after John Rocker faded away into nothing after his tirade.
I don't think the key difference here is "woke" vs. "pre-woke." I think it's "player" vs. "coach/commentator." I think as long as these guys went out and produced, the teammates were willing to swallow it from a teammate. But that teammate doesn't hire coaches, sign players, or determine who gets to start. Maybe this is why Chris Kluwe ("distraction" punter who supported GLBTQ rights) didn't make the team (after the Vikings picked homophobe special teams coach Mike Priefer over him). Gruden literally said that gay players should not be in the league and then he got a job that has a key role in decided who makes the team.
The other difference is "one comment" vs. "a plethora of comments." We're now looking at dozens of emails going after just about anyone you can think of (including football players, given his distaste for taking safety measures for the very guys busting heads for his 9-figure salary).
Riley Cooper? I suppose I'm not even allowed to say he's a racist since it was eight years ago. But he is. Well, I know lots of racists with jobs. What I don't know is anyone who sends professional emails using every slur in the book and going after every group in the book. A racist co-worker? I'm sure I have a few. A racist at the top? I hope not. Riley Cooper's presence hurt the league's image, I suppose but he didn't actively hurt the league or the team simply by being there. Gruden did...at least he certainly may have.
The ideal you want to protect by giving him a pass needs to die.
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I'll just address the bolded...
1) Not talking about teammates accepting him. I'm saying if he did the exact same thing now, he'd be gone. Conversely, if Gruden's emails came out then, he wouldn't be forced to resign.
2) No, he didn't literally say that. He said that the league pressured Jeff Fisher into drafting Michael Sam because he's gay. Not sure if that's true. But he didn't say gay players shouldn't be in the league.
3) This is just dumb.
4) Not sure what ideal you're suggesting anyone is trying protect. Nobody saying Gruden should get a pass. I'm just saying he would've gotten one six or seven years ago.
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
2013 Wrigley 2014 St. Paul 2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley 2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley 2021 Asbury Park 2022 St Louis 2023 Austin, Austin
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
2013 Wrigley 2014 St. Paul 2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley 2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley 2021 Asbury Park 2022 St Louis 2023 Austin, Austin
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
Ironically it was Michael Vick and other black players on the Eagles who stepped up and basically saved Riley Cooper's job/career back then by privately and publicly forgiving him. I don't think it is a certainty that he'd immediately be gone in 2021 if his team was quick to stand up for him like they did in 2013. I can't think of any instances of this happening since then...
7-10 years ago, you could get away with stuff like this, but not today.
Personal thought here... wow.
I wonder why we tolerated this. I wonder why it was accepted. And I also think that if that's the case... 'cancel culture' or whatever you want to label it... seems to be working. No? Granted... it can be taken too far and out of context but I mean... seeing some of this hateful and unnecessary behaviour.. its baffling that this used to be par for the course.
I feel like hazing is along the same lines too. Something that was accepted before, but not today.
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
Football (and men's team sports in general, I suppose) is not a leader in some of these issues. Race? Maybe sometimes. LGBTQ? Hell no. I'd guess the gay bashing in the locker room is still overwhelming (I've read/heard athletes saying it was super prevalent but haven't heard anything for a while).
Ten years ago, I don't think racist outbursts were tolerated and I don't think homophobia was tolerated. At least not significantly more than it is today (in fact maybe a bit less given what's been going on the last five years). I agree with Juggler that Cooper's circumstance in Philly at the time was probably key in keeping him around and the same circumstance could happen now. It was, what, maybe two or three years ago that racist tweets came out from Josh Hader. It came out at the All Star game, players of color forgave him, the home crowd gave him a standing ovation, and he's been the best relief pitcher in baseball ever since.
The biggest difference today from ten years ago may be the amount of scrutiny we have. in 2011, would there ever have been a process that would have uncovered thousands of emails from 2001? There certainly was far less twitter history. And everyone walking around with a video camera that could put something on social media within seconds was in its infancy. I'm 47 years old and I have no memory of a time where dropping an N-bomb was considered OK outside of small like-minded groups. I remember when someone did it on my dorm floor in front of at least a dozen people in 1993. It did not go over well. It was not acceptable. There was nothing to really "cancel" him from...now, had someone been rolling an iphone camera and had it gone viral, may something have happened? Maybe and it would be a reflection of the technology more than the acceptability of what he said.
One problem, I admit, is that the logical conclusion sometimes becomes a purity test of sorts; and a rabbit hole that we cannot dig ourselves out of. "OK, Player X dropped an N-bomb, but Player Y used this racial slur, and then Player Z asked a woman to make him a sandwich, and Player A said he would disown his gay kid if he ever had one via twitter when he was 14 in 2008, and Player B used the "r-word" two years ago." It's difficult to draw lines.
But I'd still maintain the biggest difference between now and ten (or maybe 20) years ago is technology. Now the stupidest things you've said or done are captured on the internet forever. So what do we do with Josh Hader? I don't think we kick him out of MLB for saying gross things when he was a kid. (But I sure as hell don't participate in the standing ovation he got; I thought that was pretty embarrassing). Could he have grown up in that amount of time? Sure. Most people probably don't (except to get smart enough to not put it in writing on the internet) but if we stopped employing every bigot, the economy would crash. If I was a Brewer fan, I would not wear his jersey and I would feel weird cheering for him to succeed. But I cheer for all sorts of unsavory people in sports and other things; they just kept it off twitter.
2013 Wrigley 2014 St. Paul 2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley 2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley 2021 Asbury Park 2022 St Louis 2023 Austin, Austin
Instead of just cancelling the person altogether, maybe see if they willingly admit to wrongdoing? we've all said/done stupid shit we regret at one time or another. I sincerely hope I wouldn't lose my job over a stupid thing I may have said on camera or in MSN messenger 15 years ago.
it's absurd how stupid it has become, and it just feeds into the "anti-woke" crowd's criticism of it.
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the barstool jabronis are defending gruden. because is is the kind of thing they would do.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Get woke, grandpa!
Some get more famous. There are definitely people I never knew about until their 'cancellation'.
I do think that the reaction to "cancelling" is actually way bigger than the actual cancelling. Analogy: I remember when it came out that Vince Vaughn was a Trump fan (or conservative or whatever). I was on twitter, clicked his name when he was trending and I'll conservatively say I saw 25 people complaining about "everyone criticizing him" for every one person that actually criticized him. He wasn't cancelled; and if he was it was probably a right-wing self-fulfilling prophecy. They created the (illusion of ) cancellation to win points in the culture war.
2013 Wrigley 2014 St. Paul 2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley 2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley 2021 Asbury Park 2022 St Louis 2023 Austin, Austin
www.headstonesband.com
Damn kids are ruining the language!
That is, until M-W comes along and decides to deplete my pen of red ink.
Good job! I hope you don't have too many "vinyls" or "shop locals" to deal with!
Andddd... go.
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx