GOP
Comments
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mickeyrat said:0
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Merkin Baller said:mickeyrat said:0
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xavier mcdaniel said:mickeyrat said:
I don't think he is stepping down nor will they find anything bad enough to remove him.
Strange world we live in.0 -
tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:mickeyrat said:www.myspace.com0
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tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:mickeyrat said:
Things change. It's a drastically different country now than it was even just 11 years ago.0 -
Good for Romney....I would have been ok with him as POTUSRemember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
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2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt20 -
The Juggler said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:mickeyrat said:Merkin Baller said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:mickeyrat said:
Things change. It's a drastically different country now than it was even just 11 years ago.
@Merkin Baller yes, that was my point. The world was viewed much differently years ago.0 -
A little more detail of what transpired and what some think of Santaria.
Romney goes after Santos in tense exchange at the State of the Union
Sen. Mitt Romney (R-Utah) and Rep. George Santos (R-N.Y.) exchanged harsh words on the House floor Tuesday night before the State of the Union began, with the Republican senator telling the freshman GOP lawmaker that he should not be in Congress.
As lawmakers and other guests were entering the chamber ahead of President Biden’s speech, Romney and Santos were spotted having a brief but tense conversation. Romney glared at Santos, who smiled slightly, nodded and seemed to dismiss Romney before continuing to greet others.
Romney later said that he told Santos — who has admitted to fabricating large swaths of his biography and whose campaign finances are under investigation — that he did not belong there. Santos is facing a possible investigation by the bipartisan House Ethics Committee and last month stepped down from his committee assignments.
“I didn’t expect that he’d be standing there trying to shake hands with every senator and the president of the United States,” Romney told reporters after Biden’s speech concluded Tuesday night, when asked why he had confronted Santos.
“Given the fact that [Santos is] under ethics investigation, he should be sitting in the back row and staying quiet instead of parading in front of the president and people coming into the room,” Romney added.
Romney said that Santos’s claims that he had “embellished” his record were absurd.
“Look, embellishing is saying you got an A when you got an A-minus. Lying is saying you graduated from a college you didn’t even attend,” Romney said. “And he shouldn’t be in Congress. And they’re going to go through the process and hopefully get him out. But he shouldn’t be there and if he had any shame at all, he wouldn’t be there.”
Romney told reporters that Santos may have responded to him, but that he did not hear it on the House floor. After the State of the Union concluded, Santos lashed out at Romney on social media.
“Hey @MittRomney just a reminder that you will NEVER be PRESIDENT!” he posted to Twitter.
Rep. Thomas Massie (R-Ky.) later defended Santos, describing Romney’s words as “the rudest I’ve ever seen a human being be to another human being.”
But Rep. Nick LaLota, a fellow freshman Republican from New York, sided with Romney, calling Santos a “sociopath.”
“Mitt Romney is right on this one. I’ve been clear on George Santos for months now,” LaLota said in an interview with CNN on Wednesday morning. “He does not deserve to be in Congress."
“He’s a sociopath, George Santos. He looks for that attention, even the negative attention drives him. It’s become an embarrassment and a distraction to Republicans in the House,” said LaLota, who like Santos, represents a district on New York’s Long Island.
Dozens of Republicans in New York state, including several in Santos’s district from Nassau County, have called on him to resign. Joseph G. Cairo Jr., the Nassau County party chairman, has said Santos’s campaign was one of “deceit, lies, fabrication.”
Romney, who was the Republican nominee for president in 2012, was the only Republican to stand and clap when Biden said unemployment was at a 50-year low Tuesday night, and applauded alongside Democrats at other points in Biden’s speech.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/02/08/mitt-romney-george-santos-state-of-the-union/
09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
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tempo_n_groove said:The Juggler said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:mickeyrat said:Merkin Baller said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:mickeyrat said:
Things change. It's a drastically different country now than it was even just 11 years ago.
@Merkin Baller yes, that was my point. The world was viewed much differently years ago.
It's also worth noting that this was well after the start of the tea party & birtherism etc... the ugliness was already well established by 2012.0 -
Merkin Baller said:tempo_n_groove said:The Juggler said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:mickeyrat said:Merkin Baller said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:mickeyrat said:
Things change. It's a drastically different country now than it was even just 11 years ago.
@Merkin Baller yes, that was my point. The world was viewed much differently years ago.
It's also worth noting that this was well after the start of the tea party & birtherism etc... the ugliness was already well established by 2012.
I forgot about the Tea Party, it seems like forever ago. Do you remember the Minute Men? They got some press for a bit.0 -
tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:tempo_n_groove said:The Juggler said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:mickeyrat said:Merkin Baller said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:mickeyrat said:
Things change. It's a drastically different country now than it was even just 11 years ago.
@Merkin Baller yes, that was my point. The world was viewed much differently years ago.
It's also worth noting that this was well after the start of the tea party & birtherism etc... the ugliness was already well established by 2012.
I forgot about the Tea Party, it seems like forever ago. Do you remember the Minute Men? They got some press for a bit.
Looks like in addition to the minute men border patrol of the early 2000s, they were also an anti-communist group back in the '60s.
It's amazing the way history continues to repeat itself in the good ol' US of A,.0 -
Merkin Baller said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:tempo_n_groove said:The Juggler said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:mickeyrat said:Merkin Baller said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:mickeyrat said:
Things change. It's a drastically different country now than it was even just 11 years ago.
@Merkin Baller yes, that was my point. The world was viewed much differently years ago.
It's also worth noting that this was well after the start of the tea party & birtherism etc... the ugliness was already well established by 2012.
I forgot about the Tea Party, it seems like forever ago. Do you remember the Minute Men? They got some press for a bit.
Looks like in addition to the minute men border patrol of the early 2000s, they were also an anti-communist group back in the '60s.
It's amazing the way history continues to repeat itself in the good ol' US of A,.0 -
tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:tempo_n_groove said:The Juggler said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:mickeyrat said:Merkin Baller said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:mickeyrat said:
Things change. It's a drastically different country now than it was even just 11 years ago.
@Merkin Baller yes, that was my point. The world was viewed much differently years ago.
It's also worth noting that this was well after the start of the tea party & birtherism etc... the ugliness was already well established by 2012.
I forgot about the Tea Party, it seems like forever ago. Do you remember the Minute Men? They got some press for a bit.
Looks like in addition to the minute men border patrol of the early 2000s, they were also an anti-communist group back in the '60s.
It's amazing the way history continues to repeat itself in the good ol' US of A,.0 -
Merkin Baller said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:tempo_n_groove said:The Juggler said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:mickeyrat said:Merkin Baller said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:mickeyrat said:
Things change. It's a drastically different country now than it was even just 11 years ago.
@Merkin Baller yes, that was my point. The world was viewed much differently years ago.
It's also worth noting that this was well after the start of the tea party & birtherism etc... the ugliness was already well established by 2012.
I forgot about the Tea Party, it seems like forever ago. Do you remember the Minute Men? They got some press for a bit.
Looks like in addition to the minute men border patrol of the early 2000s, they were also an anti-communist group back in the '60s.
It's amazing the way history continues to repeat itself in the good ol' US of A,.0 -
tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:tempo_n_groove said:The Juggler said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:mickeyrat said:Merkin Baller said:tempo_n_groove said:Merkin Baller said:mickeyrat said:
Things change. It's a drastically different country now than it was even just 11 years ago.
@Merkin Baller yes, that was my point. The world was viewed much differently years ago.
It's also worth noting that this was well after the start of the tea party & birtherism etc... the ugliness was already well established by 2012.
I forgot about the Tea Party, it seems like forever ago. Do you remember the Minute Men? They got some press for a bit.
Looks like in addition to the minute men border patrol of the early 2000s, they were also an anti-communist group back in the '60s.
It's amazing the way history continues to repeat itself in the good ol' US of A,.0 -
Has the NYPost released Hunter's laptop yet? Explained the chain of custody and how it came into Ruddy Ghouliani's possession? Anyone at the Post been subpoenaed to testify?09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
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Considering the yutes of 'Murica not being drawn by Sarah Hucksterbee, don't you forget about them.
Charlie Kirk’s right-wing empire loses a key asset: Students for Trump
The split shows how Turning Point USA and its affiliates are wrestling with their identity as parts of the GOP seek a Trump alternative
As the 2024 presidential election cycle gets underway, the political arm of Turning Point USA, the influential right-wing nonprofit run by Charlie Kirk, is losing a key asset: Students for Trump.
Students for Trump has leased its popular web domains and social media accounts to Kirk’s Turning Point Action since 2019, supporting the group’s move into more explicit campaign work and solidifying its identity for donors as the country’s premier conservative youth movement. With more than 1.3 million followers across Twitter, Facebook and Instagram, Students for Trump has amplified Turning Point’s online megaphone, making its messaging go viral and rallying its activists around the former president.
Now, Students for Trump is clawing back control over those assets, according to contract documents and people familiar with the situation, raising questions about how closely Turning Point will be associated with Donald Trump’s 2024 campaign. The split, which has not been previously reported, shows how the Turning Point network, which gained prominence over the last seven years because of its proximity to Trump, is wrestling with its role and direction as parts of the GOP seek out an alternative standard-bearer.
The separation follows a failed effort by Kirk’s main deputy, Tyler Bowyer, to assert greater control over the Students for Trump accounts, said knowledgeable people who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe private dealings. The changes Bowyer floated would have included removing the Trump name and renaming the accounts as official Turning Point properties. He discussed leveraging the rebranded accounts as part of a new initiative using social media influencers to fundraise for political candidates, according to people who heard Bowyer’s pitch. But not all the money would go to the candidates, as influencers would get a cut of any fundraising they perform.
The idea fell flat with Students for Trump’s national chairman, Ryan Fournier, according to people familiar with the discussions. Fournier indicated that he wanted the identification with Trump to remain explicit and worried that the revenue plan proposed by Bowyer, the chief operating officer of Turning Point Action, the political arm of Turning Point USA, would leave too little money for candidates.
Andrew Kolvet, a Turning Point spokesman, said there was no intention to rename the social media accounts so long as Trump was in the race for president. He also said Turning Point leaders were “still allies of the Students for Trump project and support it wholeheartedly.” Fournier declined to comment.
The dynamic is a delicate one for Turning Point, which has long been able to pitch its pro-Trump tent large enough to fit other big-name GOP politicians who flock to the group’s conferences. A competitive presidential primary, however, may soon pit Trump against some of those politicians, testing the loyalty of groups like Turning Point.
Galas hosted by Turning Point at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago club in Florida over the past two years have featured vehement debate among donors about whether nominating Trump again would harm the party’s prospects, according to people in attendance. “Probably the most common view is, ‘Please, God, let it be someone else,’” one person said, summarizing the comments.
One option favored by some of the group’s benefactors is Ron DeSantis, Florida’s popular Republican governor. “I think Ron DeSantis would be Donald Trump without all the baggage,” Doug Deason, a Dallas investor and member of Turning Point USA’s advisory council, told the Daily Mail.
Bowyer helped bring DeSantis to Phoenix, where Turning Point is based, several months before last year’s midterms. Kirk stumped with DeSantis in the Tampa Bay area on the Saturday before the midterms, days before DeSantis coasted to reelection, while many of Trump’s favored candidates stumbled.
Last month, DeSantis sat for a one-on-one interview with Kirk in the governor’s mansion in Tallahassee and spoke favorably of the Kirk-endorsed candidate for chair of the Republican National Committee, Harmeet Dhillon, who mounted an unsuccessful challenge to Trump-backed Ronna McDaniel.
Kirk, on a different episode of his talk show, called Trump’s support for McDaniel “demoralizing,” though he reaffirmed that he was backing Trump in 2024 “enthusiastically, by the way.”
Turning Point as an organization, however, has been less clear about its plans. It has hardly spurned Trump, as have other high-profile activist groups, such as Americans for Prosperity, which is backed by billionaire Charles Koch. But it also resisted immediately endorsing Trump after his announcement last fall, unlike some groups focused on young conservatives, such as the New York Young Republican Club and the California College Republicans.
Turning Point’s more ambiguous stance reflects its latest effort to reinvent itself, as well as the growing pains of a group fueled by Trump-era culture wars. Founded in 2012 to promote support for free markets among young people, it soon became an appendage of Trump’s MAGA movement, raising more than $65 million annually, according to public filings by Turning Point and its affiliated groups, which are set up as nonprofits. With those resources, Turning Point grew into a conservative influence machine involving political jamborees, podcasts, biblical citizenship classes and K-12 curriculum.
Over time, its efforts to transcend Trump’s movement put Turning Point at odds with Students for Trump, which has maintained an unswerving mission of building youth support for the MAGA movement. Fournier founded the initiative in 2015 while at college in North Carolina, first as a single Twitter account. Today, it boasts about 250,000 followers on Twitter. An Instagram account brings its 832,000 followers a stream of memes ridiculing Democrats and the left.
Turning Point Action’s own social media accounts, meanwhile, maintain more modest activities, with fewer than 10,000 followers on Twitter. The group’s 501(c)3 arm, Turning Point USA, has a larger following, but tax law limits its election-related work.
A 2019 news release announcing the acquisition of Students for Trump called it a “social media phenomenon” and said it would anchor the network’s campaign work in the 2020 cycle.
“Students for Trump will be the official chapter-based, pro-Trump student group on hundreds of college and high school campuses across America beginning this fall,” the release promised.
A profile of Kirk on the Turning Point site says Students for Trump in 2020 “activated hundreds of thousands of new college voters through its more than 350 chapters present on campuses in battleground states.”
Charlie Kirk’s right-wing empire loses a key asset: Students for Trump - The Washington Post
09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
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There are times I just have to believe my own eyes and ears.
Falling down,...not staying down0 -
Kat said:There are times I just have to believe my own eyes and ears.I like your non-mod participation.thanks for this post._____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
McCarthy excuses Republicans who heckled Biden, calls them ‘passionate’ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/02/08/biden-mccarthy-republicans-heckling/McCarthy excuses Republicans who heckled Biden, calls them ‘passionate’
By John Wagner
February 08, 2023 at 13:34 ET
House Speaker Kevin McCarthy (Calif.) on Wednesday excused fellow Republicans who heckled President Biden during his State of the Union address, saying they were “passionate.” But he suggested that the smarter play would be not to “take the bait” from Biden.
McCarthy’s comments came during a Fox News interview after a clip was played from Tuesday night’s speech in which Biden said “some Republicans” want to require new votes to authorize Social Security and Medicare every five years. The president was referring to a plan by Sen. Rick Scott (R-Fla.) that would require such votes on all legislation.
Biden’s line was met with yelling by Republicans, including Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.), who called Biden a “liar.”
“Fox & Friends” co-host Steve Doocy noted that polling showed that independent voters were turned off by the heckling and asked McCarthy what happened.
“Well, the president was trying to goad the members, and the members are passionate about it,” McCarthy said.
McCarthy accused Biden of saying “something he knew was not true” and reiterated that House Republicans are not seeking to cut Social Security or Medicare.
Still, McCarthy counseled: “We need to be smart. Don’t take the bait.”
The GOP heckling came despite McCarthy’s reminder to Republicans earlier Tuesday to behave during the president’s address. Hours before the speech, McCarthy and other Republican leaders had told lawmakers during their weekly conference meeting that all eyes would be on them as Biden delivered his remarks, according to people in the room for the meeting who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss it freely.continues.....
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Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140
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