I just did a bit of research - which I could have done in the first place. But I do like hearing from people on here about these types of issues. Anyway, I found this illustration. I think my lower body uses correct form, but I need to focus on keeping my torso more upright when I run. It did seem to make running easier when I focused on straightening my back today, but it doesn't come naturally to me. I definitely seem to lean my torso forward. I need to work on that. It's interesting because when I am standing or walking I have good posture in terms of standing up straight.
So, yes, you want to be more upright. Think of it like you are driving -- instead of looking at your phone (!) you are supposed to keep your eyes looking several second ahead of you. If you focus your vision off in the distance instead of on your feet, your posture should improve automatically.
Big exception to this, IMO: trail running -- see @JeBurkhardt and the tree root experience, above. In general, my top priority when running is "don't die," LOL.
You found good guidance on posture and running form. Aim for a mid-foot strike, not a heel strike (you'll know if you're a heel striker). Don't over-stride, but also try to avoid doing the shuffle. Having proper cadence (steps/minute) helps; you should aim for 180 steps/minute, that's considered optimal. You can measure your cadence by counting (whee!), or you can get yourself a gadget. I have a Garmin, and I bought a little bluetooth-enabled pod that I can wear with it when I'm running -- it will measure cadence, stride length, stride height, whether or not you are favoring one side over another. I imagine Apple watches can do something similar, but I know nothing about them (sorry!). https://smile.amazon.com/Garmin-010-12520-00-Running-Dynamics-Pod/dp/B06XQ4KCVL (link to Garmin pod -- just remember to remove it before throwing your running shorts in the laundry!)
As for the upper body: As/if you run longer, you might notice that your neck/traps/upper back feel tight. This can mean that you're hunching your shoulders and/or that your upper body is too tense. You can check this and remind yourself to keep good form by actively squeezing your shoulders toward your ears and then relaxing them. My husband and I both find that, as we tire on long runs, our form deteriorates, so we need to pay attention to those little details (even while we are asking ourselves, "WHY did I think this was a good idea?!?"). We've also both noticed that our form is worse the SLOWER we run; I think my form is best at 10K - half-marathon pace, definitely is worst at "recovery jog" pace.
Bottom line: good form makes you a more efficient runner and helps eliminate sources of pain/ injury.
All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
0
curmudgeoness
Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 3,990
More on "don't die" --
As the days grow shorter in the northern hemisphere, safety is a big concern. ALWAYS run against traffic, unless you are dealing with a blind curve in the road. You want to see the UPS truck in case it doesn't see you.
There are a lot of reflective clothing options available, and I think Brooks now has reflective shoes as well. But you will want to think about making yourself even more visible than that if you plan on running in the dark. You can get headlamps (unsexy but practical; my husband uses them when doing home repairs, too -- no flashlight needed); I found fleece caps with built-in lights for my (bald) husband - he loves them. https://smile.amazon.com/Panther-Vision-POWERCAP-Ultra-Bright-Headlamp/dp/B0777366MG And then there are NOXgear vests.
All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
0
F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,380
Good info. Since I mangled my ankle I look down much more. I hate it. One of the (few) reasons I actually like track running more now. Nothing to worry about and I can stop looking down so much.
I just did a bit of research - which I could have done in the first place. But I do like hearing from people on here about these types of issues. Anyway, I found this illustration. I think my lower body uses correct form, but I need to focus on keeping my torso more upright when I run. It did seem to make running easier when I focused on straightening my back today, but it doesn't come naturally to me. I definitely seem to lean my torso forward. I need to work on that. It's interesting because when I am standing or walking I have good posture in terms of standing up straight.
So, yes, you want to be more upright. Think of it like you are driving -- instead of looking at your phone (!) you are supposed to keep your eyes looking several second ahead of you. If you focus your vision off in the distance instead of on your feet, your posture should improve automatically.
Big exception to this, IMO: trail running -- see @JeBurkhardt and the tree root experience, above. In general, my top priority when running is "don't die," LOL.
You found good guidance on posture and running form. Aim for a mid-foot strike, not a heel strike (you'll know if you're a heel striker). Don't over-stride, but also try to avoid doing the shuffle. Having proper cadence (steps/minute) helps; you should aim for 180 steps/minute, that's considered optimal. You can measure your cadence by counting (whee!), or you can get yourself a gadget. I have a Garmin, and I bought a little bluetooth-enabled pod that I can wear with it when I'm running -- it will measure cadence, stride length, stride height, whether or not you are favoring one side over another. I imagine Apple watches can do something similar, but I know nothing about them (sorry!). https://smile.amazon.com/Garmin-010-12520-00-Running-Dynamics-Pod/dp/B06XQ4KCVL (link to Garmin pod -- just remember to remove it before throwing your running shorts in the laundry!)
As for the upper body: As/if you run longer, you might notice that your neck/traps/upper back feel tight. This can mean that you're hunching your shoulders and/or that your upper body is too tense. You can check this and remind yourself to keep good form by actively squeezing your shoulders toward your ears and then relaxing them. My husband and I both find that, as we tire on long runs, our form deteriorates, so we need to pay attention to those little details (even while we are asking ourselves, "WHY did I think this was a good idea?!?"). We've also both noticed that our form is worse the SLOWER we run; I think my form is best at 10K - half-marathon pace, definitely is worst at "recovery jog" pace.
Bottom line: good form makes you a more efficient runner and helps eliminate sources of pain/ injury.
Thanks so much for the expert advice. I actually made sure to focus on my running form today. I kept my back straight and forced myself to not look down as much. I didn't even realizing I was doing that until I started to pay more attention to my form. I also increased my cadence from 160-171 - my app keeps track of that. Anyway, I ran the same route as last time and somehow shaved 30 seconds per mile off my time. I don't know if it was due to improving my form, or something else. I know a lot of factors can affect speed. But I will take it where I can get it. I hope as I continue to pay more attention to my form it will come more naturally so I won't have to focus so hard on it. But I am going to continue to work on it.
0
F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,380
Strides the same as steps? My tracker counts steps per minute. This morning I reached 100 per minute at max Speed was 9.8 mph and the fasted mile I did was 830. That is a good speed for me, especially dragging this ankle around. If I was meant to almost double that number of steps per minute I think I might die! (Alternately, I would be very fast!)
Sorry I've disappeared for a while. Went to an orthopedist today, apparently I fractured my pubis bone. Can't run for another month. I'm still refusing to go to the gym.
Strides the same as steps? My tracker counts steps per minute. This morning I reached 100 per minute at max Speed was 9.8 mph and the fasted mile I did was 830. That is a good speed for me, especially dragging this ankle around. If I was meant to almost double that number of steps per minute I think I might die! (Alternately, I would be very fast!)
From what you are describing it doesn’t sound like your tracker is measuring your cadence/stride. Mine only started doing that a few months ago when I upgraded my app. From what I have been reading if you run under a 10 minute mile your cadence should be around 179-180. If you run over a 10 minute mile like I do (I have been averaging 10-10:30) then it can be a bit less. I run slower than you and my cadence is around 160-170. I’m trying to maintain it to at least 170. So upping yours wouldn’t mean anything in terms of your speed. I doubt that 100 steps per minute stat you got is your actual running cadence. That would mean you are seriously over striding. That measurement might come from a step counter that is based on 5 miles equaling 10,000 walking steps. I am not sure. Here is more info from a runner’s blog:
“Most recreational runners will have a cadence between 150 to 170spm (strides per minute) topping out at 180spm. A cadence of less than 160spm is usually seen in runners who overstride. The good news is that as you improve your cadence, you will simultaneously be correcting your overstriding.
The shorter your stride length, the quicker your stride rate, the faster and better you run. If you have a low cadence, you most likely have a long stride which makes for a choppy and more bouncy run. The more bounce and over striding in your gait, the more susceptible you are to injury. Shortening your stride length with increase your cadence, which will make you faster and less injury prone.
As a bonus, when you shorten your stride you will also change the position of where your foot lands beneath you. The optimal placement of your foot is beneath your hips (not out in front of them) which is where your foot will automatically land if you take the necessary steps to increase your cadence and shorten your stride length. This is the point of your center of gravity and where the least amount of impact will occur. Your turnover will increase which will propel you forward and will waste less energy since you will now be moving forward and back not up and down.”
Sorry I've disappeared for a while. Went to an orthopedist today, apparently I fractured my pubis bone. Can't run for another month. I'm still refusing to go to the gym.
Hope everyone is doing well in here
I am sorry to hear that. I hope you are doing ok, and have a speedy recovery. I went to the gym for the first time last week since March. I went twice. I was nervous at first. You have to make an appointment to go and they were seriously limiting the number of people. When I went, I felt like I had plenty of room around me. Everyone of course was wearing masks, and there were wipes and hand sanitizer everywhere. Had I used the treadmills, I would have been the only person in all four rows. But, I can't deal with the thought of using the treadmill in a mask so I am sticking to outside running until I can't handle with the cold. So, I have only done weight training at the gym. I bought some dumbbells to use at home while the gym was closed so that part of my workout wasn't too affected. However, when I got on the machines - I had lost so much progress. For the the seated rows, and the lat pulldowns I had to use 15 pounds less weight than in March. So frustrating. I hope I get it back soon.
Do you know what caused your fracture. It sounds painful?
0
F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,380
Sorry I've disappeared for a while. Went to an orthopedist today, apparently I fractured my pubis bone. Can't run for another month. I'm still refusing to go to the gym.
Hope everyone is doing well in here
Oh man, sorry to hear that! What is the recovery time/plan for something like that?
Sorry I've disappeared for a while. Went to an orthopedist today, apparently I fractured my pubis bone. Can't run for another month. I'm still refusing to go to the gym.
Hope everyone is doing well in here
I am sorry to hear that. I hope you are doing ok, and have a speedy recovery. I went to the gym for the first time last week since March. I went twice. I was nervous at first. You have to make an appointment to go and they were seriously limiting the number of people. When I went, I felt like I had plenty of room around me. Everyone of course was wearing masks, and there were wipes and hand sanitizer everywhere. Had I used the treadmills, I would have been the only person in all four rows. But, I can't deal with the thought of using the treadmill in a mask so I am sticking to outside running until I can't handle with the cold. So, I have only done weight training at the gym. I bought some dumbbells to use at home while the gym was closed so that part of my workout wasn't too affected. However, when I got on the machines - I had lost so much progress. For the the seated rows, and the lat pulldowns I had to use 15 pounds less weight than in March. So frustrating. I hope I get it back soon.
Do you know what caused your fracture. It sounds painful?
Not really sure, I guess just running. I don't recall doing anything that would have injured it. It's not as painful as you would think, more uncomfortable than anything.
0
F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,380
Strides the same as steps? My tracker counts steps per minute. This morning I reached 100 per minute at max Speed was 9.8 mph and the fasted mile I did was 830. That is a good speed for me, especially dragging this ankle around. If I was meant to almost double that number of steps per minute I think I might die! (Alternately, I would be very fast!)
From what you are describing it doesn’t sound like your tracker is measuring your cadence/stride. Mine only started doing that a few months ago when I upgraded my app. From what I have been reading if you run under a 10 minute mile your cadence should be around 179-180. If you run over a 10 minute mile like I do (I have been averaging 10-10:30) then it can be a bit less. I run slower than you and my cadence is around 160-170. I’m trying to maintain it to at least 170. So upping yours wouldn’t mean anything in terms of your speed. I doubt that 100 steps per minute stat you got is your actual running cadence. That would mean you are seriously over striding. That measurement might come from a step counter that is based on 5 miles equaling 10,000 walking steps. I am not sure. Here is more info from a runner’s blog:
“Most recreational runners will have a cadence between 150 to 170spm (strides per minute) topping out at 180spm. A cadence of less than 160spm is usually seen in runners who overstride. The good news is that as you improve your cadence, you will simultaneously be correcting your overstriding.
The shorter your stride length, the quicker your stride rate, the faster and better you run. If you have a low cadence, you most likely have a long stride which makes for a choppy and more bouncy run. The more bounce and over striding in your gait, the more susceptible you are to injury. Shortening your stride length with increase your cadence, which will make you faster and less injury prone.
As a bonus, when you shorten your stride you will also change the position of where your foot lands beneath you. The optimal placement of your foot is beneath your hips (not out in front of them) which is where your foot will automatically land if you take the necessary steps to increase your cadence and shorten your stride length. This is the point of your center of gravity and where the least amount of impact will occur. Your turnover will increase which will propel you forward and will waste less energy since you will now be moving forward and back not up and down.”
Thanks for that info! Perhaps I am overstriding, don't know. Will have to watch some stuff to see. If I am, that would be good to know since it sounds I can get faster/more efficient/safer if I shorten. I feel like my strides are shorter since my ankle injury, already.
Strides the same as steps? My tracker counts steps per minute. This morning I reached 100 per minute at max Speed was 9.8 mph and the fasted mile I did was 830. That is a good speed for me, especially dragging this ankle around. If I was meant to almost double that number of steps per minute I think I might die! (Alternately, I would be very fast!)
From what you are describing it doesn’t sound like your tracker is measuring your cadence/stride. Mine only started doing that a few months ago when I upgraded my app. From what I have been reading if you run under a 10 minute mile your cadence should be around 179-180. If you run over a 10 minute mile like I do (I have been averaging 10-10:30) then it can be a bit less. I run slower than you and my cadence is around 160-170. I’m trying to maintain it to at least 170. So upping yours wouldn’t mean anything in terms of your speed. I doubt that 100 steps per minute stat you got is your actual running cadence. That would mean you are seriously over striding. That measurement might come from a step counter that is based on 5 miles equaling 10,000 walking steps. I am not sure. Here is more info from a runner’s blog:
“Most recreational runners will have a cadence between 150 to 170spm (strides per minute) topping out at 180spm. A cadence of less than 160spm is usually seen in runners who overstride. The good news is that as you improve your cadence, you will simultaneously be correcting your overstriding.
The shorter your stride length, the quicker your stride rate, the faster and better you run. If you have a low cadence, you most likely have a long stride which makes for a choppy and more bouncy run. The more bounce and over striding in your gait, the more susceptible you are to injury. Shortening your stride length with increase your cadence, which will make you faster and less injury prone.
As a bonus, when you shorten your stride you will also change the position of where your foot lands beneath you. The optimal placement of your foot is beneath your hips (not out in front of them) which is where your foot will automatically land if you take the necessary steps to increase your cadence and shorten your stride length. This is the point of your center of gravity and where the least amount of impact will occur. Your turnover will increase which will propel you forward and will waste less energy since you will now be moving forward and back not up and down.”
Thanks for that info! Perhaps I am overstriding, don't know. Will have to watch some stuff to see. If I am, that would be good to know since it sounds I can get faster/more efficient/safer if I shorten. I feel like my strides are shorter since my ankle injury, already.
No problem. Runner's World has a good article on cadence as well. I never really paid attention to form, cadence, etc. until recently. But based on my last run when I really was conscious of it - it seemed to make a difference. I know that I tend to overstride, especially when running faster. I take huge steps. Maybe subconsciously I think it will take me there faster. This is all new to me - but such good information to have in terms of preventing injury and being more efficient.
0
curmudgeoness
Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 3,990
Strides the same as steps? My tracker counts steps per minute. This morning I reached 100 per minute at max Speed was 9.8 mph and the fasted mile I did was 830. That is a good speed for me, especially dragging this ankle around. If I was meant to almost double that number of steps per minute I think I might die! (Alternately, I would be very fast!)
Yeah, it sounds as if your tracker is off. 9.8mph or a 9:50ish pace? 9.8mph is nearly a six-minute mile pace.
If you're running an 8:30 - 9:00 pace your cadence should be 170+, just because you would need that amount of turnover to hit that pace (unless you have really long legs?).
I had one of the early FitBit mini-pods, and I hated it because it was so inaccurate; it DID help a bit to correct the stride length the device was using. So you might want to see if your tracker needs to be calibrated.
All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
0
F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,380
Thanks. That was the top run speed...the pace around 9 minutes is correct based on distances and times I can reference w/o the polar device. The stride piece may be what is screwed up.
The love he receives is the love that is saved
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curmudgeoness
Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 3,990
The bounciness that @GlowGirl quotes is a real thing, too: if you have a lot of up-and-down movement in your gait, that's wasted energy that COULD be propelling you forward instead of moving you up and down.
I'll try to find analysis of Shalane Flanagan's gait -- she's a very efficient runner, and watching her run was very instructive for me.
All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
0
curmudgeoness
Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 3,990
That was easy. I found this was a very helpful video:
This was interesting, although painful to watch. Watched another of the same guy's videos -- he can over-explain something with the best of them!
Good info though, I am glad I have it and it gives me something to think about when I am doing this.
Looked a little on the web about my device, a Polar watch. It appears they report half numbers.
"for example, in Polar products a running cadence of 180 steps per minutes shows as 90"
So....my 85 average and 100 max on the run yesterday was 170 average and 200 max.
Being that you shared 180 steps is considered optimal I will know I can improve there.
Anyway, question solved there.
Mystery solved. My app only gives me the average cadence for the entire run. I have been as low as 155 and as high as 173. For my speed, I want to hover around 170 since I run under a 10 minute mile. I will have to keep working on that. But it sounds like 180 would be optimal for you. We learn something new everyday.
0
F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,380
This was interesting, although painful to watch. Watched another of the same guy's videos -- he can over-explain something with the best of them!
Good info though, I am glad I have it and it gives me something to think about when I am doing this.
Looked a little on the web about my device, a Polar watch. It appears they report half numbers.
"for example, in Polar products a running cadence of 180 steps per minutes shows as 90"
So....my 85 average and 100 max on the run yesterday was 170 average and 200 max.
Being that you shared 180 steps is considered optimal I will know I can improve there.
Anyway, question solved there.
Mystery solved. My app only gives me the average cadence for the entire run. I have been as low as 155 and as high as 173. For my speed, I want to hover around 170 since I run under a 10 minute mile. I will have to keep working on that. But it sounds like 180 would be optimal for you. We learn something new everyday.
Indeed!
I would love to run faster on these long runs. Think of the impact it would make to run 2 minutes faster per mile...at 26 miles that is close to an hour sooner I could stop running.
I remember talking to a guy who inspired me last year at the early stages of this foolishness...right before my first 10k. Made the mistake of asking him how long he takes when running 10ks.
"I am not that fast, I am better over distance..."
"Yeah, but what was the last time you did, do you recall?"
Wow!! A 10K in 33 minutes. Insane. I have only run a 10K distance six times since September, and my fastest time was 1 hour and 4 minutes -10:26 minutes per mile. That guy could have finished the race, went home, showered, and made a sandwich while I would still be running
0
F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,380
Yep, he is also training for a 100 mile ultra.
The love he receives is the love that is saved
0
F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,380
And I am not a fast runner, either. I'm just under an hour at the point, typically.
The love he receives is the love that is saved
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F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,380
edited October 2020
Did manage to run 19 miles this morning faster than my previous long run of 18 miles, beat that time but more than a minute! Was cruising through 16 and then.....blammo Hit a fucking wall and was slow the last three.
Did manage to run 19 miles this morning faster than my previous long run of 18 miles, beat that time but more than a minute! Was cruising through 16 and then.....blammo Hit a fucking wall and was slow the last three.
Wow. Great job. Nice on beating your time. That always feels good.
0
F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,380
I am visiting my parents for a few days (for the first time in almost a year I might add - with a negative COVID test right before I got here). Anyway, just went for a run in their suburban neighborhood. The pros compared to running in NYC are the wide streets, very few cars passing by, and not having to stop for lights or dodge people on the sidewalks. But holy shit - the hills here are insane. Running along the East River in NYC is relatively flat with a few small inclines here and there. But here it is all hills. I am not used to that. To compare - according to my app the elevation for my normal route in NYC is about 40 ft. My route today was 345 ft. It is probably good for me to practice running hills occasionally, but I am not used to that. I did find one side street that was relatively flat except for one massive hill at the end. I am going to do one more run here on Tuesday and may stick with running up and down that street over and over. I threw my form out of the window today in terms of looking straight ahead. I looked down quite a bit as to not see the hills in front of me. I may have given up had I been looking straight up. But did my 5 miles so I am happy.
Comments
Since I mangled my ankle I look down much more. I hate it. One of the (few) reasons I actually like track running more now. Nothing to worry about and I can stop looking down so much.
My tracker counts steps per minute. This morning I reached 100 per minute at max
Speed was 9.8 mph and the fasted mile I did was 830.
That is a good speed for me, especially dragging this ankle around.
If I was meant to almost double that number of steps per minute I think I might die!
(Alternately, I would be very fast!)
Hope everyone is doing well in here
“Most recreational runners will have a cadence between 150 to 170spm (strides per minute) topping out at 180spm. A cadence of less than 160spm is usually seen in runners who overstride. The good news is that as you improve your cadence, you will simultaneously be correcting your overstriding.
As a bonus, when you shorten your stride you will also change the position of where your foot lands beneath you. The optimal placement of your foot is beneath your hips (not out in front of them) which is where your foot will automatically land if you take the necessary steps to increase your cadence and shorten your stride length. This is the point of your center of gravity and where the least amount of impact will occur. Your turnover will increase which will propel you forward and will waste less energy since you will now be moving forward and back not up and down.”
What is the recovery time/plan for something like that?
Not really sure, I guess just running. I don't recall doing anything that would have injured it. It's not as painful as you would think, more uncomfortable than anything.
Perhaps I am overstriding, don't know. Will have to watch some stuff to see. If I am, that would be good to know since it sounds I can get faster/more efficient/safer if I shorten.
I feel like my strides are shorter since my ankle injury, already.
The stride piece may be what is screwed up.
Was cruising through 16 and then.....blammo
Hit a fucking wall and was slow the last three.