Seattle Has Fallen...

mickeyrat

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

BS44325 said:

Carmen Best resigned! We won everybody! We won! Woohoo! Can’t wait to watch the Home Show and celebrate all the great work this band and it’s fans have done for the city! It’s finally paid off!

You're being sarcastic but I bet there are people in this anti-police movement celebrating like this. 

I wonder how voters are going to respond to all of the nonsense going on in Seattle.  Think the mayor will have another term?  I bet the city counsel is sweating a bit.

I wonder how voters in big cities all around the country are going to respond to the rise in crime. Trump is so bad that he has the potential to drag down the GOP on both the national and local levels. But on the other hand, how long can the citizens of those big cities deal with the likes of Lori Lightfoot, Jenny Durkan, and worst of all, Bill De Blasio? If I was a left-leaning New Yorker who has lived there for decades, I'd probably long to go back to the days of Democratic President Clinton, and Republican Mayor Giuliani. I know Giuliani is a joke these days now that he's just a Trump lackey, but it seems like he did a pretty good job as NYC mayor from a crime standpoint. 

Giuliani did a great job curbing mafia control in the city even before he was mayor, but that has been long forgotten.  New York is indebted to him as far as I’m concerned.  

For anyone interested:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_Commission_Trial

netflix docuseries Fear City.... 

PJPOWER

mickeyrat said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

BS44325 said:

Carmen Best resigned! We won everybody! We won! Woohoo! Can’t wait to watch the Home Show and celebrate all the great work this band and it’s fans have done for the city! It’s finally paid off!

You're being sarcastic but I bet there are people in this anti-police movement celebrating like this. 

I wonder how voters are going to respond to all of the nonsense going on in Seattle.  Think the mayor will have another term?  I bet the city counsel is sweating a bit.

I wonder how voters in big cities all around the country are going to respond to the rise in crime. Trump is so bad that he has the potential to drag down the GOP on both the national and local levels. But on the other hand, how long can the citizens of those big cities deal with the likes of Lori Lightfoot, Jenny Durkan, and worst of all, Bill De Blasio? If I was a left-leaning New Yorker who has lived there for decades, I'd probably long to go back to the days of Democratic President Clinton, and Republican Mayor Giuliani. I know Giuliani is a joke these days now that he's just a Trump lackey, but it seems like he did a pretty good job as NYC mayor from a crime standpoint. 

Giuliani did a great job curbing mafia control in the city even before he was mayor, but that has been long forgotten.  New York is indebted to him as far as I’m concerned.  

For anyone interested:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_Commission_Trial

netflix docuseries Fear City.... 

Yes, I watched that!  It was a very good series about the New York mafia corruption.  I had no idea it was THAT out of control (and probably still is to an extent).

jeffbr

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

BS44325 said:

Carmen Best resigned! We won everybody! We won! Woohoo! Can’t wait to watch the Home Show and celebrate all the great work this band and it’s fans have done for the city! It’s finally paid off!

You're being sarcastic but I bet there are people in this anti-police movement celebrating like this. 

I wonder how voters are going to respond to all of the nonsense going on in Seattle.  Think the mayor will have another term?  I bet the city counsel is sweating a bit.

The Seattle City Council is crazy. They have been for a while. They are not sweating anything. Most were recently up for reelection and most won their seats back handily. The voters in the city had a chance to either greenlight the crazy, or reign things back in a bit. They hit the green light and brought them back. The mayor and the soon-to-be-ex-police chief were not involved in the defunding discussions - they were not included. The council picked a 50% number with no plan, no budget, no stated goal for outcomes, etc... They got a lot of a shit for wanting to do things quickly, so they made a quick change, and promise much more come budget season this fall. The voters in Seattle are about to get what they deserve, which is a thoughtless knee-jerk reaction without a plan. What could go wrong? We've already seen the first casualty in Chief Best, who by the way has been an advocate for community policing and police reform. She has been instrumental in seeing that the Federal Consent Decree the department was subject to is adhered to. And to top it off, the BLM movement, which was a catalyst to the riots, has now claimed the first black police chief of SPD as their victim. So I guess black lives matter as long as they aren't wearing a uniform. Those city council assholes never once sat down with her to discuss reforms they'd like to see, or work with her on how to achieve the goals they are looking for (probably because those goals don't actually exist). Anyway, the Seattle City Council is the left's version of the Trump WH. A bunch of unqualified idiots on a rampage burning down the establishment with no thought about implications.

PJPOWER

jeffbr said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

BS44325 said:

Carmen Best resigned! We won everybody! We won! Woohoo! Can’t wait to watch the Home Show and celebrate all the great work this band and it’s fans have done for the city! It’s finally paid off!

You're being sarcastic but I bet there are people in this anti-police movement celebrating like this. 

I wonder how voters are going to respond to all of the nonsense going on in Seattle.  Think the mayor will have another term?  I bet the city counsel is sweating a bit.

The Seattle City Council is crazy. They have been for a while. They are not sweating anything. Most were recently up for reelection and most won their seats back handily. The voters in the city had a chance to either greenlight the crazy, or reign things back in a bit. They hit the green light and brought them back. The mayor and the soon-to-be-ex-police chief were not involved in the defunding discussions - they were not included. The council picked a 50% number with no plan, no budget, no stated goal for outcomes, etc... They got a lot of a shit for wanting to do things quickly, so they made a quick change, and promise much more come budget season this fall. The voters in Seattle are about to get what they deserve, which is a thoughtless knee-jerk reaction without a plan. What could go wrong? We've already seen the first casualty in Chief Best, who by the way has been an advocate for community policing and police reform. She has been instrumental in seeing that the Federal Consent Decree the department was subject to is adhered to. And to top it off, the BLM movement, which was a catalyst to the riots, has now claimed the first black police chief of SPD as their victim. So I guess black lives matter as long as they aren't wearing a uniform. Those city council assholes never once sat down with her to discuss reforms they'd like to see, or work with her on how to achieve the goals they are looking for (probably because those goals don't actually exist). Anyway, the Seattle City Council is the left's version of the Trump WH. A bunch of unqualified idiots on a rampage burning down the establishment with no thought about implications.

Such a mess, you moving any time soon?  I think it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better based off what you said above.  I hope the shit storm hasn’t directly impacted you or your loved ones.  Stay safe!

jeffbr

PJPOWER said:

jeffbr said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

BS44325 said:

Carmen Best resigned! We won everybody! We won! Woohoo! Can’t wait to watch the Home Show and celebrate all the great work this band and it’s fans have done for the city! It’s finally paid off!

You're being sarcastic but I bet there are people in this anti-police movement celebrating like this. 

I wonder how voters are going to respond to all of the nonsense going on in Seattle.  Think the mayor will have another term?  I bet the city counsel is sweating a bit.

The Seattle City Council is crazy. They have been for a while. They are not sweating anything. Most were recently up for reelection and most won their seats back handily. The voters in the city had a chance to either greenlight the crazy, or reign things back in a bit. They hit the green light and brought them back. The mayor and the soon-to-be-ex-police chief were not involved in the defunding discussions - they were not included. The council picked a 50% number with no plan, no budget, no stated goal for outcomes, etc... They got a lot of a shit for wanting to do things quickly, so they made a quick change, and promise much more come budget season this fall. The voters in Seattle are about to get what they deserve, which is a thoughtless knee-jerk reaction without a plan. What could go wrong? We've already seen the first casualty in Chief Best, who by the way has been an advocate for community policing and police reform. She has been instrumental in seeing that the Federal Consent Decree the department was subject to is adhered to. And to top it off, the BLM movement, which was a catalyst to the riots, has now claimed the first black police chief of SPD as their victim. So I guess black lives matter as long as they aren't wearing a uniform. Those city council assholes never once sat down with her to discuss reforms they'd like to see, or work with her on how to achieve the goals they are looking for (probably because those goals don't actually exist). Anyway, the Seattle City Council is the left's version of the Trump WH. A bunch of unqualified idiots on a rampage burning down the establishment with no thought about implications.

Such a mess, you moving any time soon?  I think it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better based off what you said above.  I hope the shit storm hasn’t directly impacted you or your loved ones.  Stay safe!

It has been a mess for years here with the awful response to the homeless situation. Seattle has definitely lost its shine. I live just outside the city, but have worked in the city my whole adult life, and pre-covid spent most of my leisure time in the city going to shows, breweries, and dining out. But it is certainly losing its appeal. I'm still hopeful that sanity will prevail, but I don't see that happening for some time. Things will get worse before they get better here.

Halifax2TheMax

jeffbr said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

BS44325 said:

Carmen Best resigned! We won everybody! We won! Woohoo! Can’t wait to watch the Home Show and celebrate all the great work this band and it’s fans have done for the city! It’s finally paid off!

You're being sarcastic but I bet there are people in this anti-police movement celebrating like this. 

I wonder how voters are going to respond to all of the nonsense going on in Seattle.  Think the mayor will have another term?  I bet the city counsel is sweating a bit.

The Seattle City Council is crazy. They have been for a while. They are not sweating anything. Most were recently up for reelection and most won their seats back handily. The voters in the city had a chance to either greenlight the crazy, or reign things back in a bit. They hit the green light and brought them back. The mayor and the soon-to-be-ex-police chief were not involved in the defunding discussions - they were not included. The council picked a 50% number with no plan, no budget, no stated goal for outcomes, etc... They got a lot of a shit for wanting to do things quickly, so they made a quick change, and promise much more come budget season this fall. The voters in Seattle are about to get what they deserve, which is a thoughtless knee-jerk reaction without a plan. What could go wrong? We've already seen the first casualty in Chief Best, who by the way has been an advocate for community policing and police reform. She has been instrumental in seeing that the Federal Consent Decree the department was subject to is adhered to. And to top it off, the BLM movement, which was a catalyst to the riots, has now claimed the first black police chief of SPD as their victim. So I guess black lives matter as long as they aren't wearing a uniform. Those city council assholes never once sat down with her to discuss reforms they'd like to see, or work with her on how to achieve the goals they are looking for (probably because those goals don't actually exist). Anyway, the Seattle City Council is the left's version of the Trump WH. A bunch of unqualified idiots on a rampage burning down the establishment with no thought about implications.

Is the following not accurate? I read something somewhere, and can't find it now, that the mayor had asked the police chief to reduce the budget based on a budget short fall after covid hit. Then the BLM/City Council demands of 50% were made but rejected. Seems even without the "demands" the police budget would be reduced due to falling tax revenue? Taken as a whole, the cuts and reallocation of resources don't appear to be so drastic. $3M, a less than 1% cut.

Hours after the Seattle City Council voted to strip about $3 million from the police department and reduce its size by up to 100 officers as part of a push to fundamentally change policing in the city, Police Chief Carmen Best announced her retirement.

Best, the city’s first Black police chief, leaves after months of turmoil that made Seattle a focal point for national protests against police brutality and racial injustice. In a letter to Seattle police officers, the 55-year-old called the decision “difficult” but said “when it’s time, it’s time.”

“I am confident the department will make it through these difficult times,” she wrote in the letter, which the Seattle Times republished. “I look forward to seeing how this department moves forward through the process of re-envisioning public safety.”

Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan (D), who opposed the city council’s police cuts, which would also have trimmed Best’s pay, said she was disappointed in her decision to retire.

“I regret deeply that she concluded that the best way to serve the city and help the department was through a change in leadership,” Durkan wrote in a letter to police officers.

Best is the latest high-profile police chief to leave her post amid the mass protests that have roiled the nation since George Floyd’s death in Minneapolis in May, joining at least half a dozen other leaders from cities including Louisville, Portland, Ore., Nashville and Atlanta. Unlike many of those other chiefs, she wasn’t forced out by her mayor or city council.

Ousting police chiefs does not ensure systemic reform, activists fear

Instead, Best’s retirement came after the Seattle City Council took a cue from protesters who have made defunding the police a central tenet of their movement. The council’s final moves, though, were far more modest than the demands of Black Lives Matter activists to redistribute 50 percent of the police department’s funds toward community programs.

Instead, the council approved proposals to reduce the force’s 1,400 officers by as many as 100 positions through layoffs and attrition, the Times reported, and to trim about $3 million from the force’s $409 million budget for 2020. A plan to significantly cut Best’s $285,000 annual salary was also scaled back.

Still, a coalition of activists and most of the council hailed the moves as a first step toward altering the nature of policing in Washington’s largest city, pointing toward a resolution promising next year to shift a number of duties — including parking enforcement, 911 dispatch and emergency management — away from the police.

“It will take time to get there, but we are acting with urgency today,” council member Teresa Mosqueda said, according to the Times.

Council member Kshama Sawant, the lone vote against the measure, argued that it didn’t go nearly far enough in stripping money and power from the force.

“This budget fails to shift the misplaced priorities of the Democratic political establishment,” she said in a statement. “It continues to hand more money over to the bloated police department than to eldercare, homeless services, and other human services, affordable housing, neighborhoods, and arts and culture combined.”

Best became interim chief in 2018 and then was hired full time, in part because of pressure from Black leaders in the city. Durkan, in her letter, credited her with reducing use of force instances and hiring a more diverse group of police officers.

But Best also faced heavy criticism over the use of tear gas and less-than-lethal munitions against protesters this summer. Last week, protesters trying to march to Best’s house were stopped by her neighbors, some of whom were allegedly armed.

Durkan said she will appoint Deputy Chief Adrian Diaz as the department’s new interim chief.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/08/11/seattle-carmen-best-retires-defund/

jeffbr

I think that is accurate. But it is a bit incomplete. I believe the council was out for the chief and made it personal. They didn't consult with her. They didn't try to work with her. And the 50% cuts weren't revised until the last minute. Leading up to council meetings and the vote yesterday, there were many still talking about 50% reduction. But reality smacked them in the face, so they made some immediate cuts, and said they'd be looking to make more and deeper cuts this fall during the budget cycle. So more and drastic cuts will be coming soon. In the meantime, many under-served communities will lose community policing, and some of the cuts don't seem to make a lot of sense (like cuts to school resource officers, SWAT, and cuts to the harbor patrol - which responded to two incidents of drowning on Lake Washington just on Sunday). They have been gunning to make drastic cuts and still will, but were trying to pretend that they weren't being reckless. The problem is they had no plan and no idea about what the outcome would look like with a 50% cut. They picked a number and were trying to back into it, rather than going through the SPD budget to scale back or eliminate non-effective programs. They were more interested in the number as a symbolic gesture than the actual effects and results. One councilwoman, Lisa Herbold, was one who was calling for drastic cuts including to the chief's salary, and suddenly the night before backtracked and admitted she hadn't really thought it through. And there was 1 no vote on the council from the wackiest councilmember of all - Ksharma Sawant, who makes Bernie Sanders look like a Tea Party member. She wasn't going to vote in favor of anything less than the 50% cut. So while the WaPo article is accurate, it also misses some nuance about the politics going on in the city. What they've done is chase the 1st black police chief in the city out. And Chief Best was an advocate for the black community groups (and the black community lobbied hard to get her appointed). So these city council people ended up doing damage to the cause they claim to support by going after an African American police chief and scapegoating her. That is why I think they acted rashly, and without understanding the consequences of their actions. And this fall will be even worse, I fear. I haven't even discussed business owners who have been devastated by COVID lockdowns, and then by the council handcuffing the SPD. Many of them have opened and boarded up so many times in the last several months that they're throwing in the towel. They are convinced that the city council has no concern for them or their businesses, many of which are the life blood of the city. Without business, there is no downtown, and no tax base. If Sawant had her way, Seattle proper would be one enormous homeless encampment. I think the council had an opportunity to really do this right - move non-police services (mental health calls, parking enforcement, 911 call center, etc...) out from under SPD and to more appropriate agencies. Get rid of some of the militarization of the force, focus them on more community policing, etc.., without killing either the PD or essential services. I fear they going to destroy both.

Halifax2TheMax

jeffbr said:

I think that is accurate. But it is a bit incomplete. I believe the council was out for the chief and made it personal. They didn't consult with her. They didn't try to work with her. And the 50% cuts weren't revised until the last minute. Leading up to council meetings and the vote yesterday, there were many still talking about 50% reduction. But reality smacked them in the face, so they made some immediate cuts, and said they'd be looking to make more and deeper cuts this fall during the budget cycle. So more and drastic cuts will be coming soon. In the meantime, many under-served communities will lose community policing, and some of the cuts don't seem to make a lot of sense (like cuts to school resource officers, SWAT, and cuts to the harbor patrol - which responded to two incidents of drowning on Lake Washington just on Sunday). They have been gunning to make drastic cuts and still will, but were trying to pretend that they weren't being reckless. The problem is they had no plan and no idea about what the outcome would look like with a 50% cut. They picked a number and were trying to back into it, rather than going through the SPD budget to scale back or eliminate non-effective programs. They were more interested in the number as a symbolic gesture than the actual effects and results. One councilwoman, Lisa Herbold, was one who was calling for drastic cuts including to the chief's salary, and suddenly the night before backtracked and admitted she hadn't really thought it through. And there was 1 no vote on the council from the wackiest councilmember of all - Ksharma Sawant, who makes Bernie Sanders look like a Tea Party member. She wasn't going to vote in favor of anything less than the 50% cut. So while the WaPo article is accurate, it also misses some nuance about the politics going on in the city. What they've done is chase the 1st black police chief in the city out. And Chief Best was an advocate for the black community groups (and the black community lobbied hard to get her appointed). So these city council people ended up doing damage to the cause they claim to support by going after an African American police chief and scapegoating her. That is why I think they acted rashly, and without understanding the consequences of their actions. And this fall will be even worse, I fear. I haven't even discussed business owners who have been devastated by COVID lockdowns, and then by the council handcuffing the SPD. Many of them have opened and boarded up so many times in the last several months that they're throwing in the towel. They are convinced that the city council has no concern for them or their businesses, many of which are the life blood of the city. Without business, there is no downtown, and no tax base. If Sawant had her way, Seattle proper would be one enormous homeless encampment. I think the council had an opportunity to really do this right - move non-police services (mental health calls, parking enforcement, 911 call center, etc...) out from under SPD and to more appropriate agencies. Get rid of some of the militarization of the force, focus them on more community policing, etc.., without killing either the PD or essential services. I fear they going to destroy both.

Thanks for the reply. I read also that the mayor can approve the city council's budget by signing it, letting it go unsigned and not acting on it and it becomes law or veto it. That said, what is the relationship like between the mayor and the city council and how do they differ in their respective constituencies? Meaning, city councilors are representing districts and are voted in as such and the mayor is voted in by a majority of voters of all districts. Does the mayor have the political coverage to veto the 50% police budget cut or the city budget because of that issue? Or, is the mayor's political fortunes tied to the city council?

Regarding the above, I thought the city was moving some of the non-police stuff to other areas, like 911, parking enforcement, etc.? Seems some of the reforms are being implemented, just not as drastically as some might want? Did the city council scapegoat the police chief or did the police chief lose the support of the rank & file and/or decide she didn't want to deal with departmental "reform?" She's 55 and I wouldn't want to have to deal with that at that stage of my career, particularly on the $285K annual salary that must have a nice buy out/pension attached to it? To the business aspect that you mention, lets not forget that we're in unprecedented times in the age of covid. This isn't going away anytime soon and is not specific to Seattle. One third to half of small businesses have failed and will likely not be coming back and no one really has a handle on the carnage, nor are they addressing it (I personally know a small business owner and the hoops they had to jump through to get PPP, not pretty nor well planned or executed but what else is new with this administration?)

I appreciate your insight as finding the answers to the political dynamic and ground level detail would be a challenge from my left bubble.

jeffbr

Halifax2TheMax said:

jeffbr said:

I think that is accurate. But it is a bit incomplete. I believe the council was out for the chief and made it personal. They didn't consult with her. They didn't try to work with her. And the 50% cuts weren't revised until the last minute. Leading up to council meetings and the vote yesterday, there were many still talking about 50% reduction. But reality smacked them in the face, so they made some immediate cuts, and said they'd be looking to make more and deeper cuts this fall during the budget cycle. So more and drastic cuts will be coming soon. In the meantime, many under-served communities will lose community policing, and some of the cuts don't seem to make a lot of sense (like cuts to school resource officers, SWAT, and cuts to the harbor patrol - which responded to two incidents of drowning on Lake Washington just on Sunday). They have been gunning to make drastic cuts and still will, but were trying to pretend that they weren't being reckless. The problem is they had no plan and no idea about what the outcome would look like with a 50% cut. They picked a number and were trying to back into it, rather than going through the SPD budget to scale back or eliminate non-effective programs. They were more interested in the number as a symbolic gesture than the actual effects and results. One councilwoman, Lisa Herbold, was one who was calling for drastic cuts including to the chief's salary, and suddenly the night before backtracked and admitted she hadn't really thought it through. And there was 1 no vote on the council from the wackiest councilmember of all - Ksharma Sawant, who makes Bernie Sanders look like a Tea Party member. She wasn't going to vote in favor of anything less than the 50% cut. So while the WaPo article is accurate, it also misses some nuance about the politics going on in the city. What they've done is chase the 1st black police chief in the city out. And Chief Best was an advocate for the black community groups (and the black community lobbied hard to get her appointed). So these city council people ended up doing damage to the cause they claim to support by going after an African American police chief and scapegoating her. That is why I think they acted rashly, and without understanding the consequences of their actions. And this fall will be even worse, I fear. I haven't even discussed business owners who have been devastated by COVID lockdowns, and then by the council handcuffing the SPD. Many of them have opened and boarded up so many times in the last several months that they're throwing in the towel. They are convinced that the city council has no concern for them or their businesses, many of which are the life blood of the city. Without business, there is no downtown, and no tax base. If Sawant had her way, Seattle proper would be one enormous homeless encampment. I think the council had an opportunity to really do this right - move non-police services (mental health calls, parking enforcement, 911 call center, etc...) out from under SPD and to more appropriate agencies. Get rid of some of the militarization of the force, focus them on more community policing, etc.., without killing either the PD or essential services. I fear they going to destroy both.

Thanks for the reply. I read also that the mayor can approve the city council's budget by signing it, letting it go unsigned and not acting on it and it becomes law or veto it. That said, what is the relationship like between the mayor and the city council and how do they differ in their respective constituencies? Meaning, city councilors are representing districts and are voted in as such and the mayor is voted in by a majority of voters of all districts. Does the mayor have the political coverage to veto the 50% police budget cut or the city budget because of that issue? Or, is the mayor's political fortunes tied to the city council?

Regarding the above, I thought the city was moving some of the non-police stuff to other areas, like 911, parking enforcement, etc.? Seems some of the reforms are being implemented, just not as drastically as some might want? Did the city council scapegoat the police chief or did the police chief lose the support of the rank & file and/or decide she didn't want to deal with departmental "reform?" She's 55 and I wouldn't want to have to deal with that at that stage of my career, particularly on the $285K annual salary that must have a nice buy out/pension attached to it? To the business aspect that you mention, lets not forget that we're in unprecedented times in the age of covid. This isn't going away anytime soon and is not specific to Seattle. One third to half of small businesses have failed and will likely not be coming back and no one really has a handle on the carnage, nor are they addressing it (I personally know a small business owner and the hoops they had to jump through to get PPP, not pretty nor well planned or executed but what else is new with this administration?)

I appreciate your insight as finding the answers to the political dynamic and ground level detail would be a challenge from my left bubble.

Oooh, some great questions and while I don't have all the answers, I have some and also have my opinions that may or may not help answer them. The city council has 9 members on it. 7 of them are elected by districts within the city, and the remaining 2 are at-large positions, so the entire city votes for them. Of course the mayor is at-large as well, so a similar constituency as the 2 at-large city council people. In general, mostly the same constituency is at play. Seattle is a fairly liberal city, and much of the disagreement is not big picture necessarily. I think there's general agreement that defunding or reallocation of resources away from the police to other social services is the goal for both the mayor and the council. But part of this disagreement stems from the council wanting to make deep and drastic cuts immediately whereas the mayor is trying to balance that with the effect of those cuts to immediate operations. So they are at odds with the details and timing. The mayor would also like to see a plan for how the budget cuts were arrived at, and what outcomes they're looking for. Many of the council just want a specific % of SPD budget cut. This is similar to a battle they previously had over a head tax on companies, with the council wanting a pretty extreme head tax (that was already showing signs of driving some businesses to look outside the city), and the mayor wanted a smaller head tax created by working with businesses and community groups. Anyway, with the defunding effort, the mayor is at the mercy of the council at this point, as there would be enough votes to override a veto. And some council members have supported a recall petition against the mayor, so there is some pretty bad blood and a lot of back and forth criticism currently.  

Regarding the current action - some of the shifting of services has begun, at least in theory based on the vote yesterday to defund. But there are a number of questions still to be answered including how many layoffs and how that affects SPD's ability to provide adequate police services to all of the neighborhoods and communities they currently serve. Because the police union is so strong here, the layoffs will likely primarily affect the most recently hired, which means young, fresh, enthusiastic officers will be let go, and some of the older, more established (and problematic) cops will likely stay. One BLM member I saw interviewed had the most logical solution to layoffs, and that is to layoff based on their disciplinary records - makes sense to me! Get rid of the bad apples, and leave the good apples alone. But that isn't how it is going to work in real life when dealing with the unions. I think there are 6 or 7 unions involved at this point (from beat cops to parking enforcement to 911 centers, etc...). So much of the angst currently is really about uncertainty, and inability to articulate what the outcome of the current cuts will be, let alone what happens this fall when the real meat will be cut.

As far as the Chief goes, she is a long time member of the force. When she became chief a few years ago, she wasn't the mayor's first pick. They had a committee do a national search, and had identified a different candidate. That created backlash in the community and within the department, as there was a pretty strong consensus that it should have been Carmen Best getting the nod. Ultimately Mayor Durkin heard the will of the people and Best was made chief. She has spent her career on community outreach and working with the local minority activist groups. She has a good rapport with them and with the rank and file cops. So to have the council disrespect her, and essentially force her out, has created a lot of drama. The mayor is pissed, most of the people I've talked to or seen interviewed are pissed, and the cops are pissed. Chief Best wasn't perfect, but she was as close to someone who worked for the community as I can imagine one would find. The mayor isn't even going to start a national search until after the budget rounds so that she knows what the job description will look like, and what the salary might be based on the new budget. So Seattle will have an interim chief for the foreseeable future at this point. There were interviews with a number of community activist group leaders, and every one of them seems very discouraged and disheartened by the results of the actions taken by city council. Victoria Beach, the chair of the African American Community Advisory Council said she feels like everything she's worked hard for over the years was just flushed, and she feels like just walking away from it all. I imagine that there are those who applaud this move and look forward to the big cuts, but I haven't met anyone personally who feels that way. For the most part this was a big face palm. A city council trying to demonstrate how in tune they are with the movement ends up shooting minority representation in the foot. Seattle's first black, female police chief resigns (effectively forced out), and the work she did to start creating a police force that looks more like the community is about to be unraveled as again, most of those newer hires will be shit out of luck and shown the door and we'll be starting all over again. Disappointed by this week's move, but even more apprehensive about this fall's budget sessions.

Sorry about the length of the post. I don't think I've fully captured the range of responses to the cuts. Some feel it isn't enough and wanted to see more cuts sooner. Some think it is going too fast without a plan. Most feel some level of defunding and transfer of services to other departments make sense but disagree on scope and timing. Many have been dissatisfied with the mayor's response to the protests. Many criticized city council for handcuffing the cops during the protests. The chief was caught in the middle. I think she had enough of that. And I'm not sure what sort of a-list (or b- or c-list) candidates would even want the job of SPD chief at this point knowing that at any time the council can undermine the work, knowing the politically charged environment the city is currently in, being bound by a DOJ consent decree, and coming into a department with morale issues and cops starting to look elsewhere for jobs. Not sure who in their right mind would want such a job, and at a reduced salary. So we're unlikely to get another chief who was as in touch with the community, the political realities and the rank-and-file cops. I don't envy that challenge.

Halifax2TheMax

jeffbr said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

jeffbr said:

I think that is accurate. But it is a bit incomplete. I believe the council was out for the chief and made it personal. They didn't consult with her. They didn't try to work with her. And the 50% cuts weren't revised until the last minute. Leading up to council meetings and the vote yesterday, there were many still talking about 50% reduction. But reality smacked them in the face, so they made some immediate cuts, and said they'd be looking to make more and deeper cuts this fall during the budget cycle. So more and drastic cuts will be coming soon. In the meantime, many under-served communities will lose community policing, and some of the cuts don't seem to make a lot of sense (like cuts to school resource officers, SWAT, and cuts to the harbor patrol - which responded to two incidents of drowning on Lake Washington just on Sunday). They have been gunning to make drastic cuts and still will, but were trying to pretend that they weren't being reckless. The problem is they had no plan and no idea about what the outcome would look like with a 50% cut. They picked a number and were trying to back into it, rather than going through the SPD budget to scale back or eliminate non-effective programs. They were more interested in the number as a symbolic gesture than the actual effects and results. One councilwoman, Lisa Herbold, was one who was calling for drastic cuts including to the chief's salary, and suddenly the night before backtracked and admitted she hadn't really thought it through. And there was 1 no vote on the council from the wackiest councilmember of all - Ksharma Sawant, who makes Bernie Sanders look like a Tea Party member. She wasn't going to vote in favor of anything less than the 50% cut. So while the WaPo article is accurate, it also misses some nuance about the politics going on in the city. What they've done is chase the 1st black police chief in the city out. And Chief Best was an advocate for the black community groups (and the black community lobbied hard to get her appointed). So these city council people ended up doing damage to the cause they claim to support by going after an African American police chief and scapegoating her. That is why I think they acted rashly, and without understanding the consequences of their actions. And this fall will be even worse, I fear. I haven't even discussed business owners who have been devastated by COVID lockdowns, and then by the council handcuffing the SPD. Many of them have opened and boarded up so many times in the last several months that they're throwing in the towel. They are convinced that the city council has no concern for them or their businesses, many of which are the life blood of the city. Without business, there is no downtown, and no tax base. If Sawant had her way, Seattle proper would be one enormous homeless encampment. I think the council had an opportunity to really do this right - move non-police services (mental health calls, parking enforcement, 911 call center, etc...) out from under SPD and to more appropriate agencies. Get rid of some of the militarization of the force, focus them on more community policing, etc.., without killing either the PD or essential services. I fear they going to destroy both.

Thanks for the reply. I read also that the mayor can approve the city council's budget by signing it, letting it go unsigned and not acting on it and it becomes law or veto it. That said, what is the relationship like between the mayor and the city council and how do they differ in their respective constituencies? Meaning, city councilors are representing districts and are voted in as such and the mayor is voted in by a majority of voters of all districts. Does the mayor have the political coverage to veto the 50% police budget cut or the city budget because of that issue? Or, is the mayor's political fortunes tied to the city council?

Regarding the above, I thought the city was moving some of the non-police stuff to other areas, like 911, parking enforcement, etc.? Seems some of the reforms are being implemented, just not as drastically as some might want? Did the city council scapegoat the police chief or did the police chief lose the support of the rank & file and/or decide she didn't want to deal with departmental "reform?" She's 55 and I wouldn't want to have to deal with that at that stage of my career, particularly on the $285K annual salary that must have a nice buy out/pension attached to it? To the business aspect that you mention, lets not forget that we're in unprecedented times in the age of covid. This isn't going away anytime soon and is not specific to Seattle. One third to half of small businesses have failed and will likely not be coming back and no one really has a handle on the carnage, nor are they addressing it (I personally know a small business owner and the hoops they had to jump through to get PPP, not pretty nor well planned or executed but what else is new with this administration?)

I appreciate your insight as finding the answers to the political dynamic and ground level detail would be a challenge from my left bubble.

Oooh, some great questions and while I don't have all the answers, I have some and also have my opinions that may or may not help answer them. The city council has 9 members on it. 7 of them are elected by districts within the city, and the remaining 2 are at-large positions, so the entire city votes for them. Of course the mayor is at-large as well, so a similar constituency as the 2 at-large city council people. In general, mostly the same constituency is at play. Seattle is a fairly liberal city, and much of the disagreement is not big picture necessarily. I think there's general agreement that defunding or reallocation of resources away from the police to other social services is the goal for both the mayor and the council. But part of this disagreement stems from the council wanting to make deep and drastic cuts immediately whereas the mayor is trying to balance that with the effect of those cuts to immediate operations. So they are at odds with the details and timing. The mayor would also like to see a plan for how the budget cuts were arrived at, and what outcomes they're looking for. Many of the council just want a specific % of SPD budget cut. This is similar to a battle they previously had over a head tax on companies, with the council wanting a pretty extreme head tax (that was already showing signs of driving some businesses to look outside the city), and the mayor wanted a smaller head tax created by working with businesses and community groups. Anyway, with the defunding effort, the mayor is at the mercy of the council at this point, as there would be enough votes to override a veto. And some council members have supported a recall petition against the mayor, so there is some pretty bad blood and a lot of back and forth criticism currently.  

Regarding the current action - some of the shifting of services has begun, at least in theory based on the vote yesterday to defund. But there are a number of questions still to be answered including how many layoffs and how that affects SPD's ability to provide adequate police services to all of the neighborhoods and communities they currently serve. Because the police union is so strong here, the layoffs will likely primarily affect the most recently hired, which means young, fresh, enthusiastic officers will be let go, and some of the older, more established (and problematic) cops will likely stay. One BLM member I saw interviewed had the most logical solution to layoffs, and that is to layoff based on their disciplinary records - makes sense to me! Get rid of the bad apples, and leave the good apples alone. But that isn't how it is going to work in real life when dealing with the unions. I think there are 6 or 7 unions involved at this point (from beat cops to parking enforcement to 911 centers, etc...). So much of the angst currently is really about uncertainty, and inability to articulate what the outcome of the current cuts will be, let alone what happens this fall when the real meat will be cut.

As far as the Chief goes, she is a long time member of the force. When she became chief a few years ago, she wasn't the mayor's first pick. They had a committee do a national search, and had identified a different candidate. That created backlash in the community and within the department, as there was a pretty strong consensus that it should have been Carmen Best getting the nod. Ultimately Mayor Durkin heard the will of the people and Best was made chief. She has spent her career on community outreach and working with the local minority activist groups. She has a good rapport with them and with the rank and file cops. So to have the council disrespect her, and essentially force her out, has created a lot of drama. The mayor is pissed, most of the people I've talked to or seen interviewed are pissed, and the cops are pissed. Chief Best wasn't perfect, but she was as close to someone who worked for the community as I can imagine one would find. The mayor isn't even going to start a national search until after the budget rounds so that she knows what the job description will look like, and what the salary might be based on the new budget. So Seattle will have an interim chief for the foreseeable future at this point. There were interviews with a number of community activist group leaders, and every one of them seems very discouraged and disheartened by the results of the actions taken by city council. Victoria Beach, the chair of the African American Community Advisory Council said she feels like everything she's worked hard for over the years was just flushed, and she feels like just walking away from it all. I imagine that there are those who applaud this move and look forward to the big cuts, but I haven't met anyone personally who feels that way. For the most part this was a big face palm. A city council trying to demonstrate how in tune they are with the movement ends up shooting minority representation in the foot. Seattle's first black, female police chief resigns (effectively forced out), and the work she did to start creating a police force that looks more like the community is about to be unraveled as again, most of those newer hires will be shit out of luck and shown the door and we'll be starting all over again. Disappointed by this week's move, but even more apprehensive about this fall's budget sessions.

Sorry about the length of the post. I don't think I've fully captured the range of responses to the cuts. Some feel it isn't enough and wanted to see more cuts sooner. Some think it is going too fast without a plan. Most feel some level of defunding and transfer of services to other departments make sense but disagree on scope and timing. Many have been dissatisfied with the mayor's response to the protests. Many criticized city council for handcuffing the cops during the protests. The chief was caught in the middle. I think she had enough of that. And I'm not sure what sort of a-list (or b- or c-list) candidates would even want the job of SPD chief at this point knowing that at any time the council can undermine the work, knowing the politically charged environment the city is currently in, being bound by a DOJ consent decree, and coming into a department with morale issues and cops starting to look elsewhere for jobs. Not sure who in their right mind would want such a job, and at a reduced salary. So we're unlikely to get another chief who was as in touch with the community, the political realities and the rank-and-file cops. I don't envy that challenge.

The old adage, "All politics is local," applies here. Thanks for the detailed response. Reading through it, it seems to me, as an outsider, that there's a major disconnect somehow. Either between the city council members and their constituents, or the city council and mayor or some combination thereof. If the police chief has the support of such a large and diverse activist community, presumably one that lives in the city and votes, then why would she lack the support of the city council? Are the city council seats all up for election at the same time or are they staggered? Are they 2 or 4 year terms? What is likely to happen in November?

All of which leads me to think that CHOP/CHAZ was an outsiders hijacking of something that originated organically and was muscled out by something else, and not ANTIFA (am still waiting CYA Barr's DOJ to prosecute just one identified ANTIFA member). Someone posted or I read an article as it related to the riots/looting in Chicago and some of the purported websites/social media accounts that claimed affiliation with BLM were agitating the violence. If we had an apolitical DOJ, they should be investigating the provenance of those websites/social media accounts and really find out who is behind them. Maybe the NSA or DNI already have and they're using it for political advantage? Putin on the ritz and his troll farms are masters of manipulation in order to seed chaos. Something really smells fishy about the situation in Seattle. Its not squaring. Seems even more odd that the police chief would be scapegoated as well. Stranger things have happened.

jeffbr

I agree with you first paragraph and don't fully understand the disconnect myself. I think the chief's resignation took a number of the council by surprise. I also think that the recent protests have created an environment where more immediate change is being pushed. Most of the council was elected (or re-elected last year - the 7 district council positions were up this year, and the 2 at-large positions are staggered, and they serve 4 year terms). I think there has been a rush to action based on an urgency due to the protests. And there are certainly activist groups that sprouted up during the protests that didn't previously exist, but now have platforms and voices. So even a year ago the environment was a bit different. And with 3 more years to go before the council has to face their voting constituency, I think they're hoping this will be a distant memory in a couple of years, and they'll be able to point to some successes. 

I totally agree with your second paragraph. I am completely convinced that the organic and original protests were co-opted by outsiders. i think we could see that just about every day of the protests. There were organized, mostly peaceful protests throughout each day, and then another faction would join the main protesters later in the day and all hell would break loose. Additionally, as you mentioned, CHAZ/CHOP produced a number of faces of leaders on the nightly news who had no history of organized activism and weren't well known. Where did they suddenly come from, and how did they end up being recognized as "leaders" and organizers? They didn't necessarily work together, so when CHOP leadership would work out a deal with the city, or with SPD, other CHOP "leaders" would jump up and countermand what was agreed to, and would say that they didn't recognize the other group's leadership. I think I mentioned in CHAZ posts the difficulty of working with and negotiating with the protesters since they weren't a cohesive body, and often contradicted one another.  I would love to see a good investigative look into who these people were and where they came from.

This as been a very interesting time these past few months, and it is hard to keep track of the players and the alliances. Activist groups who would previously be demonstrating and making noise were trying to be the voice of reason and intermediaries between the city and the protesters because the city didn't have any entree into those groups and vice versa. So an entirely new dynamic exists that wasn't here last year during the council's election cycle. It will be interesting to see what groups emerge as the leaders going forward, and will also be interesting to see what the ramifications are for the city council members when they are next up for election. As I said, they have the luxury of time at this point but they're currently rushing the process, and it may bite them. If they can better articulate their plans, and shape a budget around them with specifics, then they may be just fine. If they can't, and Seattle can't find a suitable replacement for the chief who brings stability to the force and change for the better, then I suspect the voters will look elsewhere. Either way, I think the mayor will be in trouble next election, which happens in 2021. Never a dull moment.

nicknyr15

https://twitter.com/KatieDaviscourt/status/1294122205215780864?s=20

Give them your homes!! Now!! 

bbiggs

nicknyr15 said:

https://twitter.com/KatieDaviscourt/status/1294122205215780864?s=20

Give them your homes!! Now!! 

LOL!!

PJPOWER

nicknyr15 said:

https://twitter.com/KatieDaviscourt/status/1294122205215780864?s=20

Give them your homes!! Now!! 

Ha...um....NO!

nicknyr15

PJPOWER said:

nicknyr15 said:

https://twitter.com/KatieDaviscourt/status/1294122205215780864?s=20

Give them your homes!! Now!! 

Ha...um....NO!

You’re racist! Open your wallet then!! 

PJPOWER

nicknyr15 said:

PJPOWER said:

nicknyr15 said:

https://twitter.com/KatieDaviscourt/status/1294122205215780864?s=20

Give them your homes!! Now!! 

Ha...um....NO!

You’re racist! Open your wallet then!! 

Lol, okey dokey 

cincybearcat

Oh for fucks sake.

They should all get the fuck of the native Americans land. What a bunch of dumbass bullshit. How do you even reconcile that shit in your brain. 

PJPOWER

cincybearcat said:

Oh for fucks sake.

They should all get the fuck of the native Americans land. What a bunch of dumbass bullshit. How do you even reconcile that shit in your brain. 

My thoughts exactly!  Idiotic on so many levels!

Ledbetterman10

In a strange way though, these tactics might work. If mobs are going to be walking through residential neighborhoods harassing the people that live there, those people might up and move. If you're a person who's financially-stable enough to just move whenever you want, who's going to stick around and be subjected to bullshit like this that goes unchecked? 

A similar thing happened in Georgetown last week. They weren't complaining about gentrification. Just complaining in general...

https://twitter.com/hollandcourtney/status/1292307051020877830?s=20

https://twitter.com/BasedPoland/status/1292302849184018432?s=20

PJPOWER

Ledbetterman10 said:

In a strange way though, these tactics might work. If mobs are going to be walking through residential neighborhoods harassing the people that live there, those people might up and move. If you're a person who's financially-stable enough to just move whenever you want, who's going to stick around and be subjected to bullshit like this that goes unchecked? 

A similar thing happened in Georgetown last week. They weren't complaining about gentrification. Just complaining in general...

https://twitter.com/hollandcourtney/status/1292307051020877830?s=20

https://twitter.com/BasedPoland/status/1292302849184018432?s=20

The only thing they are going to succeed at is creating more racial divide.  They are sabotaging their cause with dumb shit like this.