Biden vs Trump 2020 - vote now and discuss!

HughFreakingDillon

Biden

Biden seemed pretty sharp during his presser just now. 

BF25394

Biden

HughFreakingDillon said:

Biden seemed pretty sharp during his presser just now. 

Indeed. The only thing I would have liked to see was for him to have replied to the last question, about his misspeaking and saying "Vice President Trump" instead of "Vice President Harris," by saying: "Are you fucking serious? Do you seriously believe that I can't tell the difference between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump? Are you that stupid or lazy to even dignify that idiotic criticism? Do you remember when Barack Obama misspoke and said that he'd been to 57 states? No person could have believed in good faith that Barack Obama didn't know how many states there are, and yet Republicans tried to make that a thing. Get a life. I just stood up here and answered pointed questions about foreign and domestic policy more cogently and sanely than Donald Trump could ever dream of doing, and you want to talk about me misspeaking and saying 'Vice President Trump.' Go fuck yourselves. Now I'm going to get back to doing my job."

HughFreakingDillon

Biden

BF25394 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Biden seemed pretty sharp during his presser just now. 

Indeed. The only thing I would have liked to see was for him to have replied to the last question, about his misspeaking and saying "Vice President Trump" instead of "Vice President Harris," by saying: "Are you fucking serious? Do you seriously believe that I can't tell the difference between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump? Are you that stupid or lazy to even dignify that idiotic criticism? Do you remember when Barack Obama misspoke and said that he'd been to 57 states? No person could have believed in good faith that Barack Obama didn't know how many states there are, and yet Republicans tried to make that a thing. Get a life. I just stood up here and answered pointed questions about foreign and domestic policy more cogently and sanely than Donald Trump could ever dream of doing, and you want to talk about me misspeaking and saying 'Vice President Trump.' Go fuck yourselves. Now I'm going to get back to doing my job."

this is exactly what drives me bonkers about the media. Biden clearly can run circles around trump with regards to policy, and people keep focusing on these stupid "gaffes". everyone misspeaks. Biden included. He always has. It was a running joke he himself made calling himself a gaffe machine. all trump can muster is "we're doing incredible things" while handling his invisible accordion. 

BF25394

Biden

HughFreakingDillon said:

BF25394 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Biden seemed pretty sharp during his presser just now. 

Indeed. The only thing I would have liked to see was for him to have replied to the last question, about his misspeaking and saying "Vice President Trump" instead of "Vice President Harris," by saying: "Are you fucking serious? Do you seriously believe that I can't tell the difference between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump? Are you that stupid or lazy to even dignify that idiotic criticism? Do you remember when Barack Obama misspoke and said that he'd been to 57 states? No person could have believed in good faith that Barack Obama didn't know how many states there are, and yet Republicans tried to make that a thing. Get a life. I just stood up here and answered pointed questions about foreign and domestic policy more cogently and sanely than Donald Trump could ever dream of doing, and you want to talk about me misspeaking and saying 'Vice President Trump.' Go fuck yourselves. Now I'm going to get back to doing my job."

this is exactly what drives me bonkers about the media. Biden clearly can run circles around trump with regards to policy, and people keep focusing on these stupid "gaffes". everyone misspeaks. Biden included. He always has. It was a running joke he himself made calling himself a gaffe machine. all trump can muster is "we're doing incredible things" while handling his invisible accordion. 

It's the difference between the political press and substantive journalism. The political press is famously perceived to have a liberal bias, and a lot of them are indeed liberal, but that's not their real bias. Their real bias is toward trashy gossip about the horse race. Actual reporting is expensive and difficult. Opinions are cheap and easy. Most of these people don't understand policy, or bend over backwards to both-sides everything. Just look at David Sanger for an example of an actual journalist with a deep understanding of the policy area he covers presenting a substantive question about strategy regarding the China-Russia relationship. Most of the White House press corps is not capable of that, but they're very capable of breathlessly reporting the anonymous gossip that their sources on the Hill have leaked to them with no accountability.

cincybearcat

Biden

HughFreakingDillon said:

BF25394 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Biden seemed pretty sharp during his presser just now. 

Indeed. The only thing I would have liked to see was for him to have replied to the last question, about his misspeaking and saying "Vice President Trump" instead of "Vice President Harris," by saying: "Are you fucking serious? Do you seriously believe that I can't tell the difference between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump? Are you that stupid or lazy to even dignify that idiotic criticism? Do you remember when Barack Obama misspoke and said that he'd been to 57 states? No person could have believed in good faith that Barack Obama didn't know how many states there are, and yet Republicans tried to make that a thing. Get a life. I just stood up here and answered pointed questions about foreign and domestic policy more cogently and sanely than Donald Trump could ever dream of doing, and you want to talk about me misspeaking and saying 'Vice President Trump.' Go fuck yourselves. Now I'm going to get back to doing my job."

this is exactly what drives me bonkers about the media. Biden clearly can run circles around trump with regards to policy, and people keep focusing on these stupid "gaffes". everyone misspeaks. Biden included. He always has. It was a running joke he himself made calling himself a gaffe machine. all trump can muster is "we're doing incredible things" while handling his invisible accordion. 

Once you look and sound like Biden has recently and especially in the debate you lose all benefit of the doubt. You say gaffe, I say the dude is not ok. 

HughFreakingDillon

Biden

did you watch tonight's presser?

OnWis97

Biden

HughFreakingDillon said:

did you watch tonight's presser?

I did not but I will concede that he was sharp there and has been at other times. That said, there are just too many times when he hasn't been. And while I'm not qualified to diagnose dementia (and I don't necessarily think he official has it), the "good times/bad times" he displays remind me of it. Dementia or not, he's sharp far less than 100% of the time. This tells me he's not really fit to have a job that is being worked far more than 40 hours a week and is on-call 24/7. The fact that I'm still going to vote for him is not a good sign of where we're at right now (both in terms of the nefariousness of what the GOP/MAGA want to do and the country's ability to get good candidates it's most important job).

mrussel1

Biden

New Marist poll.  This is considered an A+ poll by 538.  Great summary and worth the quick read.  Only downside is that it's national,  and with the election being so tight, it's less useful.  But it does have really good information about how the candidates are perceived 

https://maristpoll.marist.edu/polls/contest-for-president-still-up-for-grabs/

tbergs

Biden

mrussel1 said:

New Marist poll.  This is considered an A+ poll by 538.  Great summary and worth the quick read.  Only downside is that it's national,  and with the election being so tight, it's less useful.  But it does have really good information about how the candidates are perceived 

https://maristpoll.marist.edu/polls/contest-for-president-still-up-for-grabs/

The hypocrisy of those polled around mental acuity between the candidates is ridiculous. I get the concern for Biden, but to see Trump poll higher on mental acuity is stupid. Speaking nonsense loud and at length doesn't equate to acuity. He's never been able to provide any type of substance or critical thinking and it's even got worse the last 4 years, but ok, perception is reality I guess. 

mrussel1

Biden

tbergs said:

mrussel1 said:

New Marist poll.  This is considered an A+ poll by 538.  Great summary and worth the quick read.  Only downside is that it's national,  and with the election being so tight, it's less useful.  But it does have really good information about how the candidates are perceived 

https://maristpoll.marist.edu/polls/contest-for-president-still-up-for-grabs/

The hypocrisy of those polled around mental acuity between the candidates is ridiculous. I get the concern for Biden, but to see Trump poll higher on mental acuity is stupid. Speaking nonsense loud and at length doesn't equate to acuity. He's never been able to provide any type of substance or critical thinking and it's even got worse the last 4 years, but ok, perception is reality I guess. 

I moderately disagree. He is a high functioning liar.  

pjl44

I'm sitting this one out

tbergs said:

mrussel1 said:

New Marist poll.  This is considered an A+ poll by 538.  Great summary and worth the quick read.  Only downside is that it's national,  and with the election being so tight, it's less useful.  But it does have really good information about how the candidates are perceived 

https://maristpoll.marist.edu/polls/contest-for-president-still-up-for-grabs/

The hypocrisy of those polled around mental acuity between the candidates is ridiculous. I get the concern for Biden, but to see Trump poll higher on mental acuity is stupid. Speaking nonsense loud and at length doesn't equate to acuity. He's never been able to provide any type of substance or critical thinking and it's even got worse the last 4 years, but ok, perception is reality I guess. 

People are all but screaming at the top of their lungs that they're uncomfortable with a plainly senile man in that position and there's a flavor of Democrat who for whatever reason are refusing to listen

BF25394

Biden

pjl44 said:

tbergs said:

mrussel1 said:

New Marist poll.  This is considered an A+ poll by 538.  Great summary and worth the quick read.  Only downside is that it's national,  and with the election being so tight, it's less useful.  But it does have really good information about how the candidates are perceived 

https://maristpoll.marist.edu/polls/contest-for-president-still-up-for-grabs/

The hypocrisy of those polled around mental acuity between the candidates is ridiculous. I get the concern for Biden, but to see Trump poll higher on mental acuity is stupid. Speaking nonsense loud and at length doesn't equate to acuity. He's never been able to provide any type of substance or critical thinking and it's even got worse the last 4 years, but ok, perception is reality I guess. 

People are all but screaming at the top of their lungs that they're uncomfortable with a plainly senile man in that position and there's a flavor of Democrat who for whatever reason are refusing to listen

Biden is not "plainly senile." A plainly senile man could not extemporaneously answer complicated questions about foreign and domestic policy cogently and substantively for nearly an hour.

I'm not a Democrat, but all these Democrats publicly-- or, worse, anonymously-- wringing their hands and/or maligning Biden are playing right into Trump's hands, because they're not talking about what an incoherent menace Trump is, and they're giving people permission to pile on and/or sit out the election. And people in polls who indicate that they think that Biden's mental acuity is less sharp than Trump's make me question their own mental acuity. Never underestimate the obliviousness of the American voter. I saw a 19-year-old woman quoted last week as saying she supports Trump because she blames Biden for increased restrictions on abortion and doesn't think Biden supports women's rights. How little attention does a person need to pay to know that Democrats are the party favoring greater access to abortion and Republicans are the party seeking to restrict access to abortion? I'm not making a value judgment as to which party is right or which is the best policy. It's just a basic fact of American political life, and there are apparently voters who don't grasp it.

mrussel1

Biden

BF25394 said:

pjl44 said:

tbergs said:

mrussel1 said:

New Marist poll.  This is considered an A+ poll by 538.  Great summary and worth the quick read.  Only downside is that it's national,  and with the election being so tight, it's less useful.  But it does have really good information about how the candidates are perceived 

https://maristpoll.marist.edu/polls/contest-for-president-still-up-for-grabs/

The hypocrisy of those polled around mental acuity between the candidates is ridiculous. I get the concern for Biden, but to see Trump poll higher on mental acuity is stupid. Speaking nonsense loud and at length doesn't equate to acuity. He's never been able to provide any type of substance or critical thinking and it's even got worse the last 4 years, but ok, perception is reality I guess. 

People are all but screaming at the top of their lungs that they're uncomfortable with a plainly senile man in that position and there's a flavor of Democrat who for whatever reason are refusing to listen

Biden is not "plainly senile." A plainly senile man could not extemporaneously answer complicated questions about foreign and domestic policy cogently and substantively for nearly an hour.

I'm not a Democrat, but all these Democrats publicly-- or, worse, anonymously-- wringing their hands and/or maligning Biden are playing right into Trump's hands, because they're not talking about what an incoherent menace Trump is, and they're giving people permission to pile on and/or sit out the election. And people in polls who indicate that they think that Biden's mental acuity is less sharp than Trump's make me question their own mental acuity. Never underestimate the obliviousness of the American voter. I saw a 19-year-old woman quoted last week as saying she supports Trump because she blames Biden for increased restrictions on abortion and doesn't think Biden supports women's rights. How little attention does a person need to pay to know that Democrats are the party favoring greater access to abortion and Republicans are the party seeking to restrict access to abortion? I'm not making a value judgment as to which party is right or which is the best policy. It's just a basic fact of American political life, and there are apparently voters who don't grasp it.

It's a tough line to walk.  Yes you're right about the orange menace, but at the same time I expect more out of my leaders than to not be a criminal like Trump.  And I think the pressure from the party to drop out is right and appropriate.  We should put the best candidate up becuase that person will need to be president for four years, not just win an election.  And I no longer believe it is Biden.  

Lerxst1992

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

BF25394 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Biden seemed pretty sharp during his presser just now. 

Indeed. The only thing I would have liked to see was for him to have replied to the last question, about his misspeaking and saying "Vice President Trump" instead of "Vice President Harris," by saying: "Are you fucking serious? Do you seriously believe that I can't tell the difference between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump? Are you that stupid or lazy to even dignify that idiotic criticism? Do you remember when Barack Obama misspoke and said that he'd been to 57 states? No person could have believed in good faith that Barack Obama didn't know how many states there are, and yet Republicans tried to make that a thing. Get a life. I just stood up here and answered pointed questions about foreign and domestic policy more cogently and sanely than Donald Trump could ever dream of doing, and you want to talk about me misspeaking and saying 'Vice President Trump.' Go fuck yourselves. Now I'm going to get back to doing my job."

this is exactly what drives me bonkers about the media. Biden clearly can run circles around trump with regards to policy, and people keep focusing on these stupid "gaffes". everyone misspeaks. Biden included. He always has. It was a running joke he himself made calling himself a gaffe machine. all trump can muster is "we're doing incredible things" while handling his invisible accordion. 

Once you look and sound like Biden has recently and especially in the debate you lose all benefit of the doubt. You say gaffe, I say the dude is not ok. 

Speaking about foreign policy is his sweet spot as is some of the basic economic stuff.. Long term memory can phase in and out with the elderly. I had older family members with clear cognitive issues, but had weeks where  they talk about historical stuff like you’d never believe, like what’re they ate dinner, what they had and who they were with in 1955 when mantle hit three homers against the tigers. There’s a lot of economic and foreign policy that is embedded in there thankfully for Biden.

Yes Biden will misspeak and yes we all do that, but what is missing is his ability to think quick on his feet and respond rapidly for shifting topics and points, especially in a debate.

So we have a candidate who can give a decent presser, but will keep on filling up the embarrassing social M videos that target the low information late deciders, who usually get to decide the elections. It’s also very possible and gets tired as the campaign drags on and has a terrible near disqualifying moment.

And we have a candidate who really can not debate, while trump is decent at it, because he is not tied to the truth . Far from ideal.

mickeyrat

Biden

Didnt want this to slip by without notice.

Giuliani's bankruptcy case has been dismissed as it was seen as a means to shield him from adjudicated judgments and blocking litigation from proceeding in the smartmatic. and dominion cases......

Halifax2TheMax

mickeyrat said:

Didnt want this to slip by without notice.

Giuliani's bankruptcy case has been dismissed as it was seen as a means to shield him from adjudicated judgments and blocking litigation from proceeding in the smartmatic. and dominion cases......

From ‘Murica’s mayor to ‘’Murica’s scum bag. Poor baby.

In dismissing the case, Lane cited the potential challenges of trying to recoup fees Giuliani says he is owed by Trump and the RNC, describing the investigation and potential recovery as “complex matters with uncertain outcomes.”

In court documents, Giuliani has listed roughly $153 million in debts to at least 20 people and businesses, including Moss and Freeman. A list of top creditors filed in February said Giuliani owes more than $3.7 million in unpaid legal fees to three law firms — though he is disputing some of those bills — and more than $1 million in state and federal taxes.

The former mayor and federal prosecutor has claimed about $11 million in assets — including an estimated $5.6 million New York apartment and a Palm Beach, Fla., condo he has valued at $3.5 million. While Giuliani has put his New York property on the market, he has so far successfully resisted selling his Florida home, with one of his lawyers claiming the sale could render the former mayor “homeless.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/07/12/rudy-giuliani-bankruptcy/

mickeyrat

Biden

https://www.politicususa.com/2024/07/12/poll-shows-the-media-is-covering-biden-and-trump-all-wrong.html

BF25394

Biden

Lerxst1992 said:

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

BF25394 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Biden seemed pretty sharp during his presser just now. 

Indeed. The only thing I would have liked to see was for him to have replied to the last question, about his misspeaking and saying "Vice President Trump" instead of "Vice President Harris," by saying: "Are you fucking serious? Do you seriously believe that I can't tell the difference between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump? Are you that stupid or lazy to even dignify that idiotic criticism? Do you remember when Barack Obama misspoke and said that he'd been to 57 states? No person could have believed in good faith that Barack Obama didn't know how many states there are, and yet Republicans tried to make that a thing. Get a life. I just stood up here and answered pointed questions about foreign and domestic policy more cogently and sanely than Donald Trump could ever dream of doing, and you want to talk about me misspeaking and saying 'Vice President Trump.' Go fuck yourselves. Now I'm going to get back to doing my job."

this is exactly what drives me bonkers about the media. Biden clearly can run circles around trump with regards to policy, and people keep focusing on these stupid "gaffes". everyone misspeaks. Biden included. He always has. It was a running joke he himself made calling himself a gaffe machine. all trump can muster is "we're doing incredible things" while handling his invisible accordion. 

Once you look and sound like Biden has recently and especially in the debate you lose all benefit of the doubt. You say gaffe, I say the dude is not ok. 

Speaking about foreign policy is his sweet spot as is some of the basic economic stuff.. Long term memory can phase in and out with the elderly. I had older family members with clear cognitive issues, but had weeks where  they talk about historical stuff like you’d never believe, like what’re they ate dinner, what they had and who they were with in 1955 when mantle hit three homers against the tigers. There’s a lot of economic and foreign policy that is embedded in there thankfully for Biden.

Yes Biden will misspeak and yes we all do that, but what is missing is his ability to think quick on his feet and respond rapidly for shifting topics and points, especially in a debate.

So we have a candidate who can give a decent presser, but will keep on filling up the embarrassing social M videos that target the low information late deciders, who usually get to decide the elections. It’s also very possible and gets tired as the campaign drags on and has a terrible near disqualifying moment.

And we have a candidate who really can not debate, while trump is decent at it, because he is not tied to the truth . Far from ideal.

Long-term memory? He wasn't opining on the Suez Crisis or the Lockerbie bombing. He was speaking about current events in Gaza, Ukraine, the rest of Europe and Asia, as well as domestic economic issues.

I take the point that there is a perception problem among voters, according to some polls, but that is a different question than whether Biden can think on his feet. He was clearly thinking on his feet in that press conference.

BF25394

Biden

mrussel1 said:

BF25394 said:

pjl44 said:

tbergs said:

mrussel1 said:

New Marist poll.  This is considered an A+ poll by 538.  Great summary and worth the quick read.  Only downside is that it's national,  and with the election being so tight, it's less useful.  But it does have really good information about how the candidates are perceived 

https://maristpoll.marist.edu/polls/contest-for-president-still-up-for-grabs/

The hypocrisy of those polled around mental acuity between the candidates is ridiculous. I get the concern for Biden, but to see Trump poll higher on mental acuity is stupid. Speaking nonsense loud and at length doesn't equate to acuity. He's never been able to provide any type of substance or critical thinking and it's even got worse the last 4 years, but ok, perception is reality I guess. 

People are all but screaming at the top of their lungs that they're uncomfortable with a plainly senile man in that position and there's a flavor of Democrat who for whatever reason are refusing to listen

Biden is not "plainly senile." A plainly senile man could not extemporaneously answer complicated questions about foreign and domestic policy cogently and substantively for nearly an hour.

I'm not a Democrat, but all these Democrats publicly-- or, worse, anonymously-- wringing their hands and/or maligning Biden are playing right into Trump's hands, because they're not talking about what an incoherent menace Trump is, and they're giving people permission to pile on and/or sit out the election. And people in polls who indicate that they think that Biden's mental acuity is less sharp than Trump's make me question their own mental acuity. Never underestimate the obliviousness of the American voter. I saw a 19-year-old woman quoted last week as saying she supports Trump because she blames Biden for increased restrictions on abortion and doesn't think Biden supports women's rights. How little attention does a person need to pay to know that Democrats are the party favoring greater access to abortion and Republicans are the party seeking to restrict access to abortion? I'm not making a value judgment as to which party is right or which is the best policy. It's just a basic fact of American political life, and there are apparently voters who don't grasp it.

It's a tough line to walk.  Yes you're right about the orange menace, but at the same time I expect more out of my leaders than to not be a criminal like Trump.  And I think the pressure from the party to drop out is right and appropriate.  We should put the best candidate up becuase that person will need to be president for four years, not just win an election.  And I no longer believe it is Biden.  

But it's not as if "the best candidate" to replace Biden is readily apparent. It would likely be Harris by default if he stepped aside, and it's not clear at all that she would perform better than he would. She might, but it's impossible to say. And the pressure from "the party" is not really from the party, it's from a subset of elected officials and donors within the party. Democratic voters are the party, and they have already voted for him in every state's primary or caucus.

mrussel1

Biden

BF25394 said:

mrussel1 said:

BF25394 said:

pjl44 said:

tbergs said:

mrussel1 said:

New Marist poll.  This is considered an A+ poll by 538.  Great summary and worth the quick read.  Only downside is that it's national,  and with the election being so tight, it's less useful.  But it does have really good information about how the candidates are perceived 

https://maristpoll.marist.edu/polls/contest-for-president-still-up-for-grabs/

The hypocrisy of those polled around mental acuity between the candidates is ridiculous. I get the concern for Biden, but to see Trump poll higher on mental acuity is stupid. Speaking nonsense loud and at length doesn't equate to acuity. He's never been able to provide any type of substance or critical thinking and it's even got worse the last 4 years, but ok, perception is reality I guess. 

People are all but screaming at the top of their lungs that they're uncomfortable with a plainly senile man in that position and there's a flavor of Democrat who for whatever reason are refusing to listen

Biden is not "plainly senile." A plainly senile man could not extemporaneously answer complicated questions about foreign and domestic policy cogently and substantively for nearly an hour.

I'm not a Democrat, but all these Democrats publicly-- or, worse, anonymously-- wringing their hands and/or maligning Biden are playing right into Trump's hands, because they're not talking about what an incoherent menace Trump is, and they're giving people permission to pile on and/or sit out the election. And people in polls who indicate that they think that Biden's mental acuity is less sharp than Trump's make me question their own mental acuity. Never underestimate the obliviousness of the American voter. I saw a 19-year-old woman quoted last week as saying she supports Trump because she blames Biden for increased restrictions on abortion and doesn't think Biden supports women's rights. How little attention does a person need to pay to know that Democrats are the party favoring greater access to abortion and Republicans are the party seeking to restrict access to abortion? I'm not making a value judgment as to which party is right or which is the best policy. It's just a basic fact of American political life, and there are apparently voters who don't grasp it.

It's a tough line to walk.  Yes you're right about the orange menace, but at the same time I expect more out of my leaders than to not be a criminal like Trump.  And I think the pressure from the party to drop out is right and appropriate.  We should put the best candidate up becuase that person will need to be president for four years, not just win an election.  And I no longer believe it is Biden.  

But it's not as if "the best candidate" to replace Biden is readily apparent. It would likely be Harris by default if he stepped aside, and it's not clear at all that she would perform better than he would. She might, but it's impossible to say. And the pressure from "the party" is not really from the party, it's from a subset of elected officials and donors within the party. Democratic voters are the party, and they have already voted for him in every state's primary or caucus.

It's not a great argument that the people already voted for him.  There was no competition.  And the elected officials are really important.  I'm highly concerned about him dragging down- ballot candidates with him.  
No I don't know that Harris or Newsome would do better.  I can't make such a statement.  But I do believe that Harris or Newsome would be more effective at prosecuting the Democratic case for our policies. As an example, in the debate I think Biden did a terrible job attacking Trump on abortion.  His argument about states rights is absurd and easily dismantled.  He didn't do it.  That was very distressing to me.  He has to be able to carry the message in an influential manner, otherwise all candidates will suffer.