Biden vs Trump 2020 - vote now and discuss!

brianlux

Biden

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

I find it interesting that some view having a 401K as being a sign of someone being wealthy or upper middle class.  My wife and I work in the used book business.   We make about what the average income is for a couple in the U.S. in a state with a higher than average cost of living.  And that is late in our working years, as high as we'll ever go in our kind of small business in podunk Placerville, California.  We have a 401K.  Does that make us upper middle class? 

 

not necessarily, but if the stat that someone posted is true, that only 32% of americans have one, that would suggest it is mostly those with more disposable income than those without. 

True, but you have to remember that many people who complain the loudest about not having enough money think nothing of buying a  $4 or $5 latte mocha fudge hoo haa beverage at Starbucks every morning on their way to work.  The majority of Americans are clueless about personal finance, budgeting and making their money stretch.  The smart thing to do would be to teach high school kids personal finance.  That's one of the thousand things my wife wants to do in her "retirement".

i 100% agree that more "real world" things need to be taught in school. my oldest daughter's school is leading the charge in this; they do something called "weeks without walls" and they go experience stuff, even getting access to places you and I wouldn't, like real research labs and places they can really figure out where their strengths and interests lie, and just learning about the world and their community in ways i never would have dreamed of. also a big emphasis not on just academics, but sewing and cooking and art and real life things that not all kids get to learn at home. not everyone is going to be an accountant. i'm glad some schools and divisions are starting to realize this. 

Wow, that is an excellent program!  Your daughter's school sounds like they're going some fine things.

brianlux

Biden

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

I find it interesting that some view having a 401K as being a sign of someone being wealthy or upper middle class.  My wife and I work in the used book business.   We make about what the average income is for a couple in the U.S. in a state with a higher than average cost of living.  And that is late in our working years, as high as we'll ever go in our kind of small business in podunk Placerville, California.  We have a 401K.  Does that make us upper middle class? 

 

not necessarily, but if the stat that someone posted is true, that only 32% of americans have one, that would suggest it is mostly those with more disposable income than those without. 

True, but you have to remember that many people who complain the loudest about not having enough money think nothing of buying a  $4 or $5 latte mocha fudge hoo haa beverage at Starbucks every morning on their way to work.  The majority of Americans are clueless about personal finance, budgeting and making their money stretch.  The smart thing to do would be to teach high school kids personal finance.  That's one of the thousand things my wife wants to do in her "retirement".

Personal finance is a required course for juniors/seniors in my district.  It is split half the year with macro-econ.  I think it's great. They learn about banking, credit , credit reports, etc. 

Kudos to your school district!

Spiritual_Chaos

I'm sitting this one out

I mean.... obviously there are people who can't handle money...

... but wouldn't most of the common sense regarding this come or not come from the parents...

Ledbetterman10

Biden

Yeah that's good stuff. I didn't learn a thing about banking and credit cards in high school. Oh, but I took trigonometry. You can imagine how little I've used that. 

Mortgages and insurance should be taught too. As well as how to navigate the health-care system. And assistance programs such as food stamps as well. 

HughFreakingDillon

Biden

Spiritual_Chaos said:

I mean.... obviously there are people who can't handle money...

... but wouldn't most of the common sense regarding this come or not come from the parents...

ideally, but how many people our age or our parents' age are shit money handlers? in these cases, it might be better to learn this at school than at home for many. 

F Me In The Brain

Biden

Birthing kids doesn't make anybody better with money, or smarter.

FSM knows there are lots of examples of that walking around these days. 

brianlux

Biden

Spiritual_Chaos said:

I mean.... obviously there are people who can't handle money...

... but wouldn't most of the common sense regarding this come or not come from the parents...

Yeah good point.  My parents were very budget conscious and as a teenager and into my early 20's I thought it was a bunch of b.s.  But when I got over being so rebellious, it started to make sense and a lot of their wisdom that way stuck with me. 

Halifax2TheMax

C'mon Tejas! What we need is GWB to come out and say sumptin great about Sleepy Woke Joe Basement Biden. But that might be asking too much.

The political evolution in Texas has been sped up not just by demographic changes that have been underway for years, but also by the repelling power of President Trump and the burst of liberal activism he has inspired.

In the four years since the last presidential election, at least 2 million people have moved to Texas, many of them Democrats from places like California, Florida, New York and Illinois. An estimated 800,000 young Latino Americans have turned 18, and a wave of immigrants became naturalized citizens. More than 3 million Texans have newly registered to vote.

Trump’s polarizing presidency has motivated many Democrats into action and pushed some independents and Republicans — especially those living in urban and suburban areas — to protest the president’s divisive rhetoric and actions, including his treatment of migrants, perceived lack of concern about police brutality and handling of the pandemic that has killed nearly 17,700 Texans.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/texas-sunbelt-biden-trump/2020/10/26/80478068-1548-11eb-ad6f-36c93e6e94fb_story.html

static111

Biden

mrussel1 said:

static111 said:

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

What is a 401k

Retirement plan that allows you to add $ before taxes from your paycheck. 

Oh but look at the wonderful GDP numbers today! 7%!  Shows all of his economic policies work!!

Like Yang pointed out today. If you go down 33 and back up 33 you are still down 11

I think Gerald Ford said it best at the debate...

Before my time but still appreciated...Chevy is the man!

PJPOWER

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

I find it interesting that some view having a 401K as being a sign of someone being wealthy or upper middle class.  My wife and I work in the used book business.   We make about what the average income is for a couple in the U.S. in a state with a higher than average cost of living.  And that is late in our working years, as high as we'll ever go in our kind of small business in podunk Placerville, California.  We have a 401K.  Does that make us upper middle class? 

 

not necessarily, but if the stat that someone posted is true, that only 32% of americans have one, that would suggest it is mostly those with more disposable income than those without. 

True, but you have to remember that many people who complain the loudest about not having enough money think nothing of buying a  $4 or $5 latte mocha fudge hoo haa beverage at Starbucks every morning on their way to work.  The majority of Americans are clueless about personal finance, budgeting and making their money stretch.  The smart thing to do would be to teach high school kids personal finance.  That's one of the thousand things my wife wants to do in her "retirement".

So true. I've worked in a lot of very low income areas, in schools with 98% free lunch. In those areas the kids would still all have the newest iPhone and have money to go to the liquor store every day and buy a bag of chips and an Arizona Iced Tea. Kids would frequently come in with brand new $200 tennis shoes. I'm an adult, and I don't spend more than $60 on tennis shoes. Sometimes it seems like the attitude is having those luxuries is a right. But they don't realize they spend $100 a month at Starbucks like you said. 

I know so many people in their late 30s that live “comfortably” and have always made a modest income that haven’t even started a retirement plan.  They are the ones that are always eating out and concerned with getting the latest and greatest cars or technology.  They will most definitely suffer when it comes to retirement age and are the type will complain if they cannot retire or blame everyone except themselves and their irresponsible behavior.  I am truly all for helping those that need it due to life circumstances standing in their way, but have little empathy for people that could have a nest egg and don’t.  At some point personal responsibility has to come into play when giving “handouts”.

static111

Biden

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

I find it interesting that some view having a 401K as being a sign of someone being wealthy or upper middle class.  My wife and I work in the used book business.   We make about what the average income is for a couple in the U.S. in a state with a higher than average cost of living.  And that is late in our working years, as high as we'll ever go in our kind of small business in podunk Placerville, California.  We have a 401K.  Does that make us upper middle class? 

 

not necessarily, but if the stat that someone posted is true, that only 32% of americans have one, that would suggest it is mostly those with more disposable income than those without. 

True, but you have to remember that many people who complain the loudest about not having enough money think nothing of buying a  $4 or $5 latte mocha fudge hoo haa beverage at Starbucks every morning on their way to work.  The majority of Americans are clueless about personal finance, budgeting and making their money stretch.  The smart thing to do would be to teach high school kids personal finance.  That's one of the thousand things my wife wants to do in her "retirement".

Some of these points are propaganda that put the blame on the poor.   Some are legit.   I 100% agree that real personal financial economics should be mandatory in all high schools.  Expecting people that know nothing about personal finance to know how to handle money is like expecting someone with no training to build a house without blue prints.   As important as it is to teach people to dream it is equally as important to teach kids economics.  My wife and I both came from poor people and knew nothing about economics and had to learn a lot the hard way.   Since then we have paid off debts and created a monthly budget so we can still afford our lattes and avocado toast.   The main oppressive thing for us at this point is the student loans...we have both already paid off as much as we initially borrowed and still owe just under what we initially borrowed, compounding interest on federally backed student loans is, well, it’s  the kind of thing a slime bag like trump would think is good business.   I think no interest loans  or loans with no compounding interest would help on that front.  Something for sure needs to be done about the cost of higher education for low income people and the federal student loan situation should be reigned in and not looked at like a revenue raising tool.  Don’t get me started on the high cost of living and the reality of oppressive wages.

If Biden gets elected and does nothing but forgive student loans for people making less than $125000 a year and lessens the debt burden for others making over that threshold, that alone will do a lot to fixing this jacked economy.

brianlux

Biden

static111 said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

I find it interesting that some view having a 401K as being a sign of someone being wealthy or upper middle class.  My wife and I work in the used book business.   We make about what the average income is for a couple in the U.S. in a state with a higher than average cost of living.  And that is late in our working years, as high as we'll ever go in our kind of small business in podunk Placerville, California.  We have a 401K.  Does that make us upper middle class? 

 

not necessarily, but if the stat that someone posted is true, that only 32% of americans have one, that would suggest it is mostly those with more disposable income than those without. 

True, but you have to remember that many people who complain the loudest about not having enough money think nothing of buying a  $4 or $5 latte mocha fudge hoo haa beverage at Starbucks every morning on their way to work.  The majority of Americans are clueless about personal finance, budgeting and making their money stretch.  The smart thing to do would be to teach high school kids personal finance.  That's one of the thousand things my wife wants to do in her "retirement".

Some of these points are propaganda that put the blame on the poor.   Some are legit.   I 100% agree that real personal financial economics should be mandatory in all high schools.  Expecting people that know nothing about personal finance to know how to handle money is like expecting someone with no training to build a house without blue prints.   As important as it is to teach people to dream it is equally as important to teach kids economics.  My wife and I both came from poor people and knew nothing about economics and had to learn a lot the hard way.   Since then we have paid off debts and created a monthly budget so we can still afford our lattes and avocado toast.   The main oppressive thing for us at this point is the student loans...we have both already paid off as much as we initially borrowed and still owe just under what we initially borrowed, compounding interest on federally backed student loans is, well, it’s  the kind of thing a slime bag like trump would think is good business.   I think no interest loans  or loans with no compounding interest would help on that front.  Something for sure needs to be done about the cost of higher education for low income people and the federal student loan situation should be reigned in and not looked at like a revenue raising tool.  Don’t get me started on the high cost of living and the reality of oppressive wages.

If Biden gets elected and does nothing but forgive student loans for people making less than $125000 a year and lessens the debt burden for others making over that threshold, that alone will do a lot to fixing this jacked economy.

As for not being taught personal finance as a reason for not saving money, I'm not sure that can totally hold water.  Isn't it also a matter of common sense to conserve what one has?  If you go for a ten mile hike in the desert and you drink all your water in the first mile, isn't that a sign of lacking common sense?  Or isn't expecting someone to show up out of the blue with a water bottle for you a sign of not taking personal responsibility?

I like a lot about Biden, but I'm not sure about the forgiving of student loans thing.  I think that I would want that to be on an individual basis.  Did the student make a good effort to do well in school or was this just an excuse to get away from mom and dad and party?  Did the student use their loan money wisely, or were they frivolous with their spending.  In other words, I think there also has to be some personal accounting as well.  Again, these are issues regarding personal responsibility, a characteristic that does not seem to garner much favor with many Americans today.

static111

Biden

brianlux said:

static111 said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

I find it interesting that some view having a 401K as being a sign of someone being wealthy or upper middle class.  My wife and I work in the used book business.   We make about what the average income is for a couple in the U.S. in a state with a higher than average cost of living.  And that is late in our working years, as high as we'll ever go in our kind of small business in podunk Placerville, California.  We have a 401K.  Does that make us upper middle class? 

 

not necessarily, but if the stat that someone posted is true, that only 32% of americans have one, that would suggest it is mostly those with more disposable income than those without. 

True, but you have to remember that many people who complain the loudest about not having enough money think nothing of buying a  $4 or $5 latte mocha fudge hoo haa beverage at Starbucks every morning on their way to work.  The majority of Americans are clueless about personal finance, budgeting and making their money stretch.  The smart thing to do would be to teach high school kids personal finance.  That's one of the thousand things my wife wants to do in her "retirement".

Some of these points are propaganda that put the blame on the poor.   Some are legit.   I 100% agree that real personal financial economics should be mandatory in all high schools.  Expecting people that know nothing about personal finance to know how to handle money is like expecting someone with no training to build a house without blue prints.   As important as it is to teach people to dream it is equally as important to teach kids economics.  My wife and I both came from poor people and knew nothing about economics and had to learn a lot the hard way.   Since then we have paid off debts and created a monthly budget so we can still afford our lattes and avocado toast.   The main oppressive thing for us at this point is the student loans...we have both already paid off as much as we initially borrowed and still owe just under what we initially borrowed, compounding interest on federally backed student loans is, well, it’s  the kind of thing a slime bag like trump would think is good business.   I think no interest loans  or loans with no compounding interest would help on that front.  Something for sure needs to be done about the cost of higher education for low income people and the federal student loan situation should be reigned in and not looked at like a revenue raising tool.  Don’t get me started on the high cost of living and the reality of oppressive wages.

If Biden gets elected and does nothing but forgive student loans for people making less than $125000 a year and lessens the debt burden for others making over that threshold, that alone will do a lot to fixing this jacked economy.

As for not being taught personal finance as a reason for not saving money, I'm not sure that can totally hold water.  Isn't it also a matter of common sense to conserve what one has?  If you go for a ten mile hike in the desert and you drink all your water in the first mile, isn't that a sign of lacking common sense?  Or isn't expecting someone to show up out of the blue with a water bottle for you a sign of not taking personal responsibility?

I like a lot about Biden, but I'm not sure about the forgiving of student loans thing.  I think that I would want that to be on an individual basis.  Did the student make a good effort to do well in school or was this just an excuse to get away from mom and dad and party?  Did the student use their loan money wisely, or were they frivolous with their spending.  In other words, I think there also has to be some personal accounting as well.  Again, these are issues regarding personal responsibility, a characteristic that does not seem to garner much favor with many Americans today.

Imagine going on that same hike through the desert not knowing what hiking through a desert was and not knowing that you only had one bottle of water.  The only way to learn would be the hard way.  Personal responsibility only goes as far as a persons education on any given topic.  

As far as means tested programs, that’s just a way around creating a universal policy with a personal responsibility shield. Not far off from the Republican bootstraps myth or the Reagan myth of the Welfare Queen.  Like James Baldwin said, anyone that has ever struggled with poverty knows how extremely expensive it is to be poor.

mace1229

static111 said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

I find it interesting that some view having a 401K as being a sign of someone being wealthy or upper middle class.  My wife and I work in the used book business.   We make about what the average income is for a couple in the U.S. in a state with a higher than average cost of living.  And that is late in our working years, as high as we'll ever go in our kind of small business in podunk Placerville, California.  We have a 401K.  Does that make us upper middle class? 

 

not necessarily, but if the stat that someone posted is true, that only 32% of americans have one, that would suggest it is mostly those with more disposable income than those without. 

True, but you have to remember that many people who complain the loudest about not having enough money think nothing of buying a  $4 or $5 latte mocha fudge hoo haa beverage at Starbucks every morning on their way to work.  The majority of Americans are clueless about personal finance, budgeting and making their money stretch.  The smart thing to do would be to teach high school kids personal finance.  That's one of the thousand things my wife wants to do in her "retirement".

Some of these points are propaganda that put the blame on the poor.   Some are legit.   I 100% agree that real personal financial economics should be mandatory in all high schools.  Expecting people that know nothing about personal finance to know how to handle money is like expecting someone with no training to build a house without blue prints.   As important as it is to teach people to dream it is equally as important to teach kids economics.  My wife and I both came from poor people and knew nothing about economics and had to learn a lot the hard way.   Since then we have paid off debts and created a monthly budget so we can still afford our lattes and avocado toast.   The main oppressive thing for us at this point is the student loans...we have both already paid off as much as we initially borrowed and still owe just under what we initially borrowed, compounding interest on federally backed student loans is, well, it’s  the kind of thing a slime bag like trump would think is good business.   I think no interest loans  or loans with no compounding interest would help on that front.  Something for sure needs to be done about the cost of higher education for low income people and the federal student loan situation should be reigned in and not looked at like a revenue raising tool.  Don’t get me started on the high cost of living and the reality of oppressive wages.

If Biden gets elected and does nothing but forgive student loans for people making less than $125000 a year and lessens the debt burden for others making over that threshold, that alone will do a lot to fixing this jacked economy.

K-12 is grossly underfunded in many states. Old buildings, no A/C, outdated equipment and underpaid teachers. I'm against any free college until we can learn to fund K-12 first. Forgiving student loans is a form of free college. 

brianlux

Biden

static111 said:

brianlux said:

static111 said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

I find it interesting that some view having a 401K as being a sign of someone being wealthy or upper middle class.  My wife and I work in the used book business.   We make about what the average income is for a couple in the U.S. in a state with a higher than average cost of living.  And that is late in our working years, as high as we'll ever go in our kind of small business in podunk Placerville, California.  We have a 401K.  Does that make us upper middle class? 

 

not necessarily, but if the stat that someone posted is true, that only 32% of americans have one, that would suggest it is mostly those with more disposable income than those without. 

True, but you have to remember that many people who complain the loudest about not having enough money think nothing of buying a  $4 or $5 latte mocha fudge hoo haa beverage at Starbucks every morning on their way to work.  The majority of Americans are clueless about personal finance, budgeting and making their money stretch.  The smart thing to do would be to teach high school kids personal finance.  That's one of the thousand things my wife wants to do in her "retirement".

Some of these points are propaganda that put the blame on the poor.   Some are legit.   I 100% agree that real personal financial economics should be mandatory in all high schools.  Expecting people that know nothing about personal finance to know how to handle money is like expecting someone with no training to build a house without blue prints.   As important as it is to teach people to dream it is equally as important to teach kids economics.  My wife and I both came from poor people and knew nothing about economics and had to learn a lot the hard way.   Since then we have paid off debts and created a monthly budget so we can still afford our lattes and avocado toast.   The main oppressive thing for us at this point is the student loans...we have both already paid off as much as we initially borrowed and still owe just under what we initially borrowed, compounding interest on federally backed student loans is, well, it’s  the kind of thing a slime bag like trump would think is good business.   I think no interest loans  or loans with no compounding interest would help on that front.  Something for sure needs to be done about the cost of higher education for low income people and the federal student loan situation should be reigned in and not looked at like a revenue raising tool.  Don’t get me started on the high cost of living and the reality of oppressive wages.

If Biden gets elected and does nothing but forgive student loans for people making less than $125000 a year and lessens the debt burden for others making over that threshold, that alone will do a lot to fixing this jacked economy.

As for not being taught personal finance as a reason for not saving money, I'm not sure that can totally hold water.  Isn't it also a matter of common sense to conserve what one has?  If you go for a ten mile hike in the desert and you drink all your water in the first mile, isn't that a sign of lacking common sense?  Or isn't expecting someone to show up out of the blue with a water bottle for you a sign of not taking personal responsibility?

I like a lot about Biden, but I'm not sure about the forgiving of student loans thing.  I think that I would want that to be on an individual basis.  Did the student make a good effort to do well in school or was this just an excuse to get away from mom and dad and party?  Did the student use their loan money wisely, or were they frivolous with their spending.  In other words, I think there also has to be some personal accounting as well.  Again, these are issues regarding personal responsibility, a characteristic that does not seem to garner much favor with many Americans today.

Imagine going on that same hike through the desert not knowing what hiking through a desert was and not knowing that you only had one bottle of water.  The only way to learn would be the hard way.  Personal responsibility only goes as far as a persons education on any given topic.  

As far as means tested programs, that’s just a way around creating a universal policy with a personal responsibility shield. Not far off from the Republican bootstraps myth or the Reagan myth of the Welfare Queen.  Like James Baldwin said, anyone that has ever struggled with poverty knows how extremely expensive it is to be poor.

Well, let's put it this way- I am no where near as callous about poverty as a typical right wing person, but also not as prone to going along with  the idea of throwing money at problems the way many liberals are.  Throwing money at problems does not get to the root of the problem. 

In most ways, I am far more progressive than not, but in this case, I see myself as what some would call "conservative".  But I see it as being more logical and pragmatic.   And I do not see so many things in black and white/ all or nothing the way some right wing and some liberal people do.

JimmyV

Biden

mace1229

brianlux said:

static111 said:

brianlux said:

static111 said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

I find it interesting that some view having a 401K as being a sign of someone being wealthy or upper middle class.  My wife and I work in the used book business.   We make about what the average income is for a couple in the U.S. in a state with a higher than average cost of living.  And that is late in our working years, as high as we'll ever go in our kind of small business in podunk Placerville, California.  We have a 401K.  Does that make us upper middle class? 

 

not necessarily, but if the stat that someone posted is true, that only 32% of americans have one, that would suggest it is mostly those with more disposable income than those without. 

True, but you have to remember that many people who complain the loudest about not having enough money think nothing of buying a  $4 or $5 latte mocha fudge hoo haa beverage at Starbucks every morning on their way to work.  The majority of Americans are clueless about personal finance, budgeting and making their money stretch.  The smart thing to do would be to teach high school kids personal finance.  That's one of the thousand things my wife wants to do in her "retirement".

Some of these points are propaganda that put the blame on the poor.   Some are legit.   I 100% agree that real personal financial economics should be mandatory in all high schools.  Expecting people that know nothing about personal finance to know how to handle money is like expecting someone with no training to build a house without blue prints.   As important as it is to teach people to dream it is equally as important to teach kids economics.  My wife and I both came from poor people and knew nothing about economics and had to learn a lot the hard way.   Since then we have paid off debts and created a monthly budget so we can still afford our lattes and avocado toast.   The main oppressive thing for us at this point is the student loans...we have both already paid off as much as we initially borrowed and still owe just under what we initially borrowed, compounding interest on federally backed student loans is, well, it’s  the kind of thing a slime bag like trump would think is good business.   I think no interest loans  or loans with no compounding interest would help on that front.  Something for sure needs to be done about the cost of higher education for low income people and the federal student loan situation should be reigned in and not looked at like a revenue raising tool.  Don’t get me started on the high cost of living and the reality of oppressive wages.

If Biden gets elected and does nothing but forgive student loans for people making less than $125000 a year and lessens the debt burden for others making over that threshold, that alone will do a lot to fixing this jacked economy.

As for not being taught personal finance as a reason for not saving money, I'm not sure that can totally hold water.  Isn't it also a matter of common sense to conserve what one has?  If you go for a ten mile hike in the desert and you drink all your water in the first mile, isn't that a sign of lacking common sense?  Or isn't expecting someone to show up out of the blue with a water bottle for you a sign of not taking personal responsibility?

I like a lot about Biden, but I'm not sure about the forgiving of student loans thing.  I think that I would want that to be on an individual basis.  Did the student make a good effort to do well in school or was this just an excuse to get away from mom and dad and party?  Did the student use their loan money wisely, or were they frivolous with their spending.  In other words, I think there also has to be some personal accounting as well.  Again, these are issues regarding personal responsibility, a characteristic that does not seem to garner much favor with many Americans today.

Imagine going on that same hike through the desert not knowing what hiking through a desert was and not knowing that you only had one bottle of water.  The only way to learn would be the hard way.  Personal responsibility only goes as far as a persons education on any given topic.  

As far as means tested programs, that’s just a way around creating a universal policy with a personal responsibility shield. Not far off from the Republican bootstraps myth or the Reagan myth of the Welfare Queen.  Like James Baldwin said, anyone that has ever struggled with poverty knows how extremely expensive it is to be poor.

Well, let's put it this way- I am no where near as callous about poverty as a typical right wing person, but also not as prone to going along with  the idea of throwing money at problems the way many liberals are.  Throwing money at problems does not get to the root of the problem. 

In most ways, I am far more progressive than not, but in this case, I see myself as what some would call "conservative".  But I see it as being more logical and pragmatic.   And I do not see so many things in black and white/ all or nothing the way some right wing and some liberal people do.

I don't know if you would consider my attitude callous or not, but I don't think many are. They just get irritated by what you sort of described you don't want to see. That behavior of no accountability and being bailed out.
I worked in South Central LA for 4 years. It was an extremely poor area where 98% of the student qualified for free lunch. I literally had parents tell me they can't do homework because they can't afford pencils and paper etc, but then come to school with chips and soda from the liquor store, or a latte from Starbucks, and the newest iphone.
And its not just those in poverty that are careless with money, but no one really cares if you make 200k a year and spent $10 a day on Starbucks. I've had plenty of friends in my 20s and 30s that would go out to eat several times a week, or to bars. Some even continue after they lost jobs and were on unemployment. Hard to feel bad for those people too when they say they're short on rent. 

static111

Biden

mace1229 said:

static111 said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

I find it interesting that some view having a 401K as being a sign of someone being wealthy or upper middle class.  My wife and I work in the used book business.   We make about what the average income is for a couple in the U.S. in a state with a higher than average cost of living.  And that is late in our working years, as high as we'll ever go in our kind of small business in podunk Placerville, California.  We have a 401K.  Does that make us upper middle class? 

 

not necessarily, but if the stat that someone posted is true, that only 32% of americans have one, that would suggest it is mostly those with more disposable income than those without. 

True, but you have to remember that many people who complain the loudest about not having enough money think nothing of buying a  $4 or $5 latte mocha fudge hoo haa beverage at Starbucks every morning on their way to work.  The majority of Americans are clueless about personal finance, budgeting and making their money stretch.  The smart thing to do would be to teach high school kids personal finance.  That's one of the thousand things my wife wants to do in her "retirement".

Some of these points are propaganda that put the blame on the poor.   Some are legit.   I 100% agree that real personal financial economics should be mandatory in all high schools.  Expecting people that know nothing about personal finance to know how to handle money is like expecting someone with no training to build a house without blue prints.   As important as it is to teach people to dream it is equally as important to teach kids economics.  My wife and I both came from poor people and knew nothing about economics and had to learn a lot the hard way.   Since then we have paid off debts and created a monthly budget so we can still afford our lattes and avocado toast.   The main oppressive thing for us at this point is the student loans...we have both already paid off as much as we initially borrowed and still owe just under what we initially borrowed, compounding interest on federally backed student loans is, well, it’s  the kind of thing a slime bag like trump would think is good business.   I think no interest loans  or loans with no compounding interest would help on that front.  Something for sure needs to be done about the cost of higher education for low income people and the federal student loan situation should be reigned in and not looked at like a revenue raising tool.  Don’t get me started on the high cost of living and the reality of oppressive wages.

If Biden gets elected and does nothing but forgive student loans for people making less than $125000 a year and lessens the debt burden for others making over that threshold, that alone will do a lot to fixing this jacked economy.

K-12 is grossly underfunded in many states. Old buildings, no A/C, outdated equipment and underpaid teachers. I'm against any free college until we can learn to fund K-12 first. Forgiving student loans is a form of free college. 

brianlux said:

static111 said:

brianlux said:

static111 said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

I find it interesting that some view having a 401K as being a sign of someone being wealthy or upper middle class.  My wife and I work in the used book business.   We make about what the average income is for a couple in the U.S. in a state with a higher than average cost of living.  And that is late in our working years, as high as we'll ever go in our kind of small business in podunk Placerville, California.  We have a 401K.  Does that make us upper middle class? 

 

not necessarily, but if the stat that someone posted is true, that only 32% of americans have one, that would suggest it is mostly those with more disposable income than those without. 

True, but you have to remember that many people who complain the loudest about not having enough money think nothing of buying a  $4 or $5 latte mocha fudge hoo haa beverage at Starbucks every morning on their way to work.  The majority of Americans are clueless about personal finance, budgeting and making their money stretch.  The smart thing to do would be to teach high school kids personal finance.  That's one of the thousand things my wife wants to do in her "retirement".

Some of these points are propaganda that put the blame on the poor.   Some are legit.   I 100% agree that real personal financial economics should be mandatory in all high schools.  Expecting people that know nothing about personal finance to know how to handle money is like expecting someone with no training to build a house without blue prints.   As important as it is to teach people to dream it is equally as important to teach kids economics.  My wife and I both came from poor people and knew nothing about economics and had to learn a lot the hard way.   Since then we have paid off debts and created a monthly budget so we can still afford our lattes and avocado toast.   The main oppressive thing for us at this point is the student loans...we have both already paid off as much as we initially borrowed and still owe just under what we initially borrowed, compounding interest on federally backed student loans is, well, it’s  the kind of thing a slime bag like trump would think is good business.   I think no interest loans  or loans with no compounding interest would help on that front.  Something for sure needs to be done about the cost of higher education for low income people and the federal student loan situation should be reigned in and not looked at like a revenue raising tool.  Don’t get me started on the high cost of living and the reality of oppressive wages.

If Biden gets elected and does nothing but forgive student loans for people making less than $125000 a year and lessens the debt burden for others making over that threshold, that alone will do a lot to fixing this jacked economy.

As for not being taught personal finance as a reason for not saving money, I'm not sure that can totally hold water.  Isn't it also a matter of common sense to conserve what one has?  If you go for a ten mile hike in the desert and you drink all your water in the first mile, isn't that a sign of lacking common sense?  Or isn't expecting someone to show up out of the blue with a water bottle for you a sign of not taking personal responsibility?

I like a lot about Biden, but I'm not sure about the forgiving of student loans thing.  I think that I would want that to be on an individual basis.  Did the student make a good effort to do well in school or was this just an excuse to get away from mom and dad and party?  Did the student use their loan money wisely, or were they frivolous with their spending.  In other words, I think there also has to be some personal accounting as well.  Again, these are issues regarding personal responsibility, a characteristic that does not seem to garner much favor with many Americans today.

Imagine going on that same hike through the desert not knowing what hiking through a desert was and not knowing that you only had one bottle of water.  The only way to learn would be the hard way.  Personal responsibility only goes as far as a persons education on any given topic.  

As far as means tested programs, that’s just a way around creating a universal policy with a personal responsibility shield. Not far off from the Republican bootstraps myth or the Reagan myth of the Welfare Queen.  Like James Baldwin said, anyone that has ever struggled with poverty knows how extremely expensive it is to be poor.

Well, let's put it this way- I am no where near as callous about poverty as a typical right wing person, but also not as prone to going along with  the idea of throwing money at problems the way many liberals are.  Throwing money at problems does not get to the root of the problem. 

In most ways, I am far more progressive than not, but in this case, I see myself as what some would call "conservative".  But I see it as being more logical and pragmatic.   And I do not see so many things in black and white/ all or nothing the way some right wing and some liberal people do.

I would be right there with you both on forgiveness of loans/free college if the system were fair.  As it stands the bar for entry is so high that all but the most wealthy are going to have to take on some kind of debt.  Even the safest form of debt in the form of a federally backed loan is burdensome for people that make all of their payments on time.  So what we have is a system with a high cost for entry, a society that requires degrees of some sort for most decent paying work, which necessitates getting some form of college, and a shrinking manufacturing and semi skilled labor market.  So the only way to get ahead and get to the status of becoming a higher earner requires taking on a level of debt that does not balance out with the net pay raise.   This is true of trade schooling as well.  It’s not all about people that are taking on 50, 75, 100000 dollar loans.  You’d be surprised of the number of smaller loans that people take out to better their financial standing only to have the interest on that loan become a crippling financial obstruction that hinders their ability to plan a future and create wealth.  Then we can blame people for enjoying a five dollar cup of coffee now and again because that is only for the people who come from generational wealth and who have been taught about personal financial responsibility at a young age.  How dare anyone try to have any enjoyment of life and live anything but the most Spartan of lifestyles. 

This is my view after going through these systems and finally coming out on the other side of the tunnel.  There is no reason it should be this hard for people in America.  Raise the wages of low and semi skilled jobs and lower the cost of college and the burden of profit based federal school loans.  I don’t care if I have paid off my last dime and then they begin forgiving loans and fixing the system the next day, it’s the right thing to do.  

Spiritual_Chaos

I'm sitting this one out

https://twitter.com/Bowl_of_Worcel/status/1321825998262980609?s=20

static111

Biden

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