I just wonder how they have pit tickets listed for the LA show?
I stand corrected....If a 10c member entered GA only and got tix then they would know for sure.
Yes those fuckers should be sought out and booted
Agreed. I can only think whomever is the scalper is going as well and will walk these people in as the notes on the tickets say - "Customer will meet rep at venue the night of the event"
How will this work? Wouldn't the scalper have to go into the show? So, we'd have one scalper attending the concert for each listing?
If I'm a 10c member that won two GA tix then yes...I would enter the show with you and attend myself
I guess there is really no way to stop that type of scalping
Which is why I'm glad 10C still charges for a membership. MetClub became free in 2016. Granted, I got grandfathered in with "Legacy" status, but I imagine tons of people are creating accounts just to be able to scalp tickets & flip limited edition merch.
"It's best to live in grace before you're forced to." EV- 10/09/2014
With all this leftist talk I would hope none of you are 10 club members. To be part of a paid society of privilege would be very very very hypocritical
With all this leftist talk I would hope none of you are 10 club members. To be part of a paid society of privilege would be very very very hypocritical
With all this leftist talk I would hope none of you are 10 club members. To be part of a paid society of privilege would be very very very hypocritical
With all this leftist talk I would hope none of you are 10 club members. To be part of a paid society of privilege would be very very very hypocritical
I said this yesterday to someone who called this concert drop an ”embarrassment”:
It hasn’t been an embarrassment. It’s been an unmitigated success. Scalping shut down for all but 2 shows. Sellouts for all shows, at face. What more do you want? I know the answer... tickets for yourself. But when demand exceeds supply, some folks miss out. I’m sad for those that do. But a little bit less sad for those who can’t find any other way to deal with it than to complain on this forum.
Starting to pop up on more major scalper sites. VIP Seats is a pretty well known legit site, they have tickets to every show......
It's the exact same software with the exact same ticket listings as the link provided above.
Yea most professional scalpers/brokers will list their inventory across all platforms.
Again, the system worked. The percentage of tickets on the secondary market is remarkably low, which is what they wanted.
It sounds to me while reading this thread that some people are slowly realizing that scalpers are a necessary evil. For years all I read on this board were "bots and scalpers ruin it for everyone! Die!" and now all I see are "you know, this really hurts the people who didn't get tickets because now we have nowhere to go to get them..."
Necessary? In the sense that people with the funds/motivation to buy from scalpers need them to get into shows, I suppose you're right. But let's imagine a world without scalping. How do the shows/crowds themselves differ? Some people are shut out, but others get in. Who gets in might look marginally different (better? worse?). I think the "necessary evil" bit is implicit fatalism coupled with insidious classism.
I’m not sure whether these questions were rhetorical or not, but to me at least the answers are not clear. Even if you try to set aside you own particular interests and view it objectively, I think how you look at it depends on both how you conceptualize the distribution of fans relative to their ability to avail themselves of the optionality offered by the scalping market (which, as @MickeyMouse points out, will differ depending not just on the distribution of cash among the fans but on what kind of markup we’re talking about, which depends on the supply/demand dynamics of the particular show) AND how you think about the fairness of the face value ticket price. If you set the face value as the “default” price and think of the scalping market as offering tickets at unfairly high rates, it looks one way. If you think about the secondary market as establishing the “fair” price based on supply and demand, and the initial “face value” sales as essentially a lottery for discounted tickets, it looks another way.
The above paragraph is based on a process-oriented approach toward this question, but your questions also suggest a potential outcome-oriented approach (under which system would the shows be better?) that I’d prefer not to engage with, because to me it necessarily involves a level of insidious (if not invidious) classism (i.e. rich fans are somehow worse as fans).
For what it’s worth, I think you and I tend to have the same sympathies and at least on an intellectual level I’d prefer a world with less or no scalping, and I support the band’s efforts in this regard and applaud their success. But also, as someone who could afford to do it if I wanted I sure wish I could hop on StubHub and grab some tickets for Baltimore.
I appreciate your response and ideas, but this curmudgeonly Leftist must say I'm not sure how much our sympathies align, because I'd never even entertain the notion that the market or supply and demand are reconcilable with fairness. Markets are, by definition, unfair. So, my disdain for the secondary market comes from creating an even less palatable market on top of another.
Ok, so the questions were rhetorical. Sorry for wasting everyone’s time.
I tried to choose my words carefully and say we had similar sympathies (rather than “we agree”) because I think you and I both tend to think that the right criterion for judging the extent to which ticket systems are “fair” is the extent to which they result in the most face-value tickets ending up in the hands of people who want to attend the show. My point was that that is (obviously) not the only conception of fairness, and furthermore that there is space to adopt a different definition of fairness that doesn’t simply resolve to “economic might makes right,” and people of good faith could, under certain assumptions, conclude that the availability of a robust secondary market increases overall “fairness” for reasons other than “fuck you I want mine.”
Taken to the extreme, I think your comment here could be read as completely foreclosing the possibility that any ticket system that operates within the larger economic systems prevailing in the US (and I’d say at least the rest of the portions of the planet that Pearl Jam is likely to play) could be considered “fair” and that any further analysis is useless. Even a system where free, 100% non-transferable tickets were raffled off would privilege those of us who have computers with which to enter it, jobs that allow us to attend the show, access to child care, etc. On the one hand that’s kind of a non-sequiter, on the other once you admit the possibility of fairness within those constraints, were just haggling about the proverbial price.
I just wonder how they have pit tickets listed for the LA show?
I stand corrected....If a 10c member entered GA only and got tix then they would know for sure.
Yes those fuckers should be sought out and booted
Agreed. I can only think whomever is the scalper is going as well and will walk these people in as the notes on the tickets say - "Customer will meet rep at venue the night of the event"
How will this work? Wouldn't the scalper have to go into the show? So, we'd have one scalper attending the concert for each listing?
That, or there will be some shady character with 20 cell phones walking in with a crowd of people......
03/20/94 - Ann Arbor 09/22/96 - Toledo 10/16/14 - Detroit 09/26/21 - Dana Point 10/01/21 - Dana Point 10/02/21 - Dana Point 05/06/22 - Los Angeles 05/07/22 - Los Angeles 07/03/22 - Stockholm 07/05/22 - Copenhagen 09/08/22 - Toronto 09/16/22 - Nashville 09/18/22 - St. Louis 09/20/22 - OKC 09/05/23 - Chicago 09/07/23 - Chicago 05/16/24 - Vegas 05/18/24 - Vegas
Starting to pop up on more major scalper sites. VIP Seats is a pretty well known legit site, they have tickets to every show......
It's the exact same software with the exact same ticket listings as the link provided above.
Honestly? Good. I have no other way of getting to these gigs. So I’m glad they’re showing up on these sites.
Sigh.
Sigh what? Did you get tickets through the lottery? I didn’t. So what? I shouldn’t buy on stubhub if I can’t score an extra pair from a fellow member, who isn’t trying to trade an extra pair for another show? I don’t get the sigh
Sigh because you're glad there's scalping so you can go to the show. That's shortsighted, selfish, and a big reason why scalping "works." We have, on one hand, the band trying to minimize (and, ideally, eliminate) scalping. On the other hand, we have fans saying "fuck that: I gotta get mine." So, yeah: sigh.
I don’t get calling him selfish. Have you never paid above face value for a show you couldn’t get tickets for? You can apply that logic to anything, have you ever paid above face for a poster? Well that’s why people flip posters. Now I’m glad the band does what they can to minimize scalping, but I’m not going to shame someone who’s willing to do what they have to.
But no matter what people will always be shut out of shows. If there’s 10,000 seats and 20,000 who want to go, people are going to miss out.
Starting to pop up on more major scalper sites. VIP Seats is a pretty well known legit site, they have tickets to every show......
It's the exact same software with the exact same ticket listings as the link provided above.
Yea most professional scalpers/brokers will list their inventory across all platforms.
Again, the system worked. The percentage of tickets on the secondary market is remarkably low, which is what they wanted.
It sounds to me while reading this thread that some people are slowly realizing that scalpers are a necessary evil. For years all I read on this board were "bots and scalpers ruin it for everyone! Die!" and now all I see are "you know, this really hurts the people who didn't get tickets because now we have nowhere to go to get them..."
Necessary? In the sense that people with the funds/motivation to buy from scalpers need them to get into shows, I suppose you're right. But let's imagine a world without scalping. How do the shows/crowds themselves differ? Some people are shut out, but others get in. Who gets in might look marginally different (better? worse?). I think the "necessary evil" bit is implicit fatalism coupled with insidious classism.
I’m not sure whether these questions were rhetorical or not, but to me at least the answers are not clear. Even if you try to set aside you own particular interests and view it objectively, I think how you look at it depends on both how you conceptualize the distribution of fans relative to their ability to avail themselves of the optionality offered by the scalping market (which, as @MickeyMouse points out, will differ depending not just on the distribution of cash among the fans but on what kind of markup we’re talking about, which depends on the supply/demand dynamics of the particular show) AND how you think about the fairness of the face value ticket price. If you set the face value as the “default” price and think of the scalping market as offering tickets at unfairly high rates, it looks one way. If you think about the secondary market as establishing the “fair” price based on supply and demand, and the initial “face value” sales as essentially a lottery for discounted tickets, it looks another way.
The above paragraph is based on a process-oriented approach toward this question, but your questions also suggest a potential outcome-oriented approach (under which system would the shows be better?) that I’d prefer not to engage with, because to me it necessarily involves a level of insidious (if not invidious) classism (i.e. rich fans are somehow worse as fans).
For what it’s worth, I think you and I tend to have the same sympathies and at least on an intellectual level I’d prefer a world with less or no scalping, and I support the band’s efforts in this regard and applaud their success. But also, as someone who could afford to do it if I wanted I sure wish I could hop on StubHub and grab some tickets for Baltimore.
I appreciate your response and ideas, but this curmudgeonly Leftist must say I'm not sure how much our sympathies align, because I'd never even entertain the notion that the market or supply and demand are reconcilable with fairness. Markets are, by definition, unfair. So, my disdain for the secondary market comes from creating an even less palatable market on top of another.
Ok, so the questions were rhetorical. Sorry for wasting everyone’s time.
I tried to choose my words carefully and say we had similar sympathies (rather than “we agree”) because I think you and I both tend to think that the right criterion for judging the extent to which ticket systems are “fair” is the extent to which they result in the most face-value tickets ending up in the hands of people who want to attend the show. My point was that that is (obviously) not the only conception of fairness, and furthermore that there is space to adopt a different definition of fairness that doesn’t simply resolve to “economic might makes right,” and people of good faith could, under certain assumptions, conclude that the availability of a robust secondary market increases overall “fairness” for reasons other than “fuck you I want mine.”
Taken to the extreme, I think your comment here could be read as completely foreclosing the possibility that any ticket system that operates within the larger economic systems prevailing in the US (and I’d say at least the rest of the portions of the planet that Pearl Jam is likely to play) could be considered “fair” and that any further analysis is useless. Even a system where free, 100% non-transferable tickets were raffled off would privilege those of us who have computers with which to enter it, jobs that allow us to attend the show, access to child care, etc. On the one hand that’s kind of a non-sequiter, on the other once you admit the possibility of fairness within those constraints, were just haggling about the proverbial price.
I do sincerely appreciate thoughtful responses, so I apologize if I'm coming across as dickish (to you, at least--I'm happy to be dickish to some others). I imagine we're approaching the entire issue from fundamentally different starting points, because, yeah, "any ticket system that operates" under capitalism is unfair. I don't think that necessarily makes all further analysis useless. We can still say X is worse than Y, while recognizing that X and Y are both bad. I guess my point then--as my sleep-deprived mind struggles to recall it--is simply that the frame you offered for reconceptualizing fairness relied on underpinning notions of the market. From my perspective, if the market is fundamentally unfair, the creation of a secondary market that reproduces in magnified form the inequalities of the original market can only be...more unfair.
Starting to pop up on more major scalper sites. VIP Seats is a pretty well known legit site, they have tickets to every show......
It's the exact same software with the exact same ticket listings as the link provided above.
Honestly? Good. I have no other way of getting to these gigs. So I’m glad they’re showing up on these sites.
Sigh.
Sigh what? Did you get tickets through the lottery? I didn’t. So what? I shouldn’t buy on stubhub if I can’t score an extra pair from a fellow member, who isn’t trying to trade an extra pair for another show? I don’t get the sigh
Sigh because you're glad there's scalping so you can go to the show. That's shortsighted, selfish, and a big reason why scalping "works." We have, on one hand, the band trying to minimize (and, ideally, eliminate) scalping. On the other hand, we have fans saying "fuck that: I gotta get mine." So, yeah: sigh.
I don’t get calling him selfish. Have you never paid above face value for a show you couldn’t get tickets for? You can apply that logic to anything, have you ever paid above face for a poster? Well that’s why people flip posters. Now I’m glad the band does what they can to minimize scalping, but I’m not going to shame someone who’s willing to do what they have to.
But no matter what people will always be shut out of shows. If there’s 10,000 seats and 20,000 who want to go, people are going to miss out.
I am regularly selfish, I fear. However, I do try--at a bare minimum--to recognize my complicity in reinforcing things that suck. So, I think profit is inherently wrong, but I still buy shit. I just spend a lot of time feeling bad about it.
Of course it worked. The silent majority agrees with you. The loudest people on this forum are the ones who aren't thinking logically or clearly and are acting like the band and Ticketmaster just killed their family and ate their dog.
Less than 2% of MSG tickets are on StubHub. The fans won. There is no debate or argument to be made against that. Numbers don't lie. Just because YOU didn't win, doesn't mean the new system is flawed.
MOST people who requested tickets in the lotto got them. Just like they said. They (reportedly) doubled the amount of tickets for 10C. That's incredible. This is above and beyond any other fan club I know of.
The fan-to-fan exchange for the other shows deterred scalpers because there is no money to be made.
Ticket prices are marginally more than for the 2016 tour and in line (or less) than other major "legacy" touring bands.
The majority of complaints I've read on this board the past few weeks come from people who are uninformed, assume they know better, or are just entitled and self-centered beyond anything I've ever seen.
Had this been a traditional tour with 2 night in NY, 2 in Philly, Boston, etc., the praise on this forum would be near universal. The problem isn't the system, it's the lack of shows they chose to do on this first leg that led to demand far outweighing supply in VERY FEW cities.
right on. i totally give credit where credit is due. pj have risen the occasion big time. single tickets for 10c included. makes me pretty fucking proud they go to such great lengths to make sure stubhub gets fucked over...
Yes, the issue is the lack of shows in the east. And they did keep most tickets off stub hub. But... there are stub hub tickets and they will be getting bad publicity when these Super bowl prices become widely known. They made choices for this tour and this is the result. so I’d be careful giving any credit to this situation.
Starting to pop up on more major scalper sites. VIP Seats is a pretty well known legit site, they have tickets to every show......
It's the exact same software with the exact same ticket listings as the link provided above.
Yea most professional scalpers/brokers will list their inventory across all platforms.
Again, the system worked. The percentage of tickets on the secondary market is remarkably low, which is what they wanted.
It sounds to me while reading this thread that some people are slowly realizing that scalpers are a necessary evil. For years all I read on this board were "bots and scalpers ruin it for everyone! Die!" and now all I see are "you know, this really hurts the people who didn't get tickets because now we have nowhere to go to get them..."
Necessary? In the sense that people with the funds/motivation to buy from scalpers need them to get into shows, I suppose you're right. But let's imagine a world without scalping. How do the shows/crowds themselves differ? Some people are shut out, but others get in. Who gets in might look marginally different (better? worse?). I think the "necessary evil" bit is implicit fatalism coupled with insidious classism.
I’m not sure whether these questions were rhetorical or not, but to me at least the answers are not clear. Even if you try to set aside you own particular interests and view it objectively, I think how you look at it depends on both how you conceptualize the distribution of fans relative to their ability to avail themselves of the optionality offered by the scalping market (which, as @MickeyMouse points out, will differ depending not just on the distribution of cash among the fans but on what kind of markup we’re talking about, which depends on the supply/demand dynamics of the particular show) AND how you think about the fairness of the face value ticket price. If you set the face value as the “default” price and think of the scalping market as offering tickets at unfairly high rates, it looks one way. If you think about the secondary market as establishing the “fair” price based on supply and demand, and the initial “face value” sales as essentially a lottery for discounted tickets, it looks another way.
The above paragraph is based on a process-oriented approach toward this question, but your questions also suggest a potential outcome-oriented approach (under which system would the shows be better?) that I’d prefer not to engage with, because to me it necessarily involves a level of insidious (if not invidious) classism (i.e. rich fans are somehow worse as fans).
For what it’s worth, I think you and I tend to have the same sympathies and at least on an intellectual level I’d prefer a world with less or no scalping, and I support the band’s efforts in this regard and applaud their success. But also, as someone who could afford to do it if I wanted I sure wish I could hop on StubHub and grab some tickets for Baltimore.
I appreciate your response and ideas, but this curmudgeonly Leftist must say I'm not sure how much our sympathies align, because I'd never even entertain the notion that the market or supply and demand are reconcilable with fairness. Markets are, by definition, unfair. So, my disdain for the secondary market comes from creating an even less palatable market on top of another.
Ok, so the questions were rhetorical. Sorry for wasting everyone’s time.
I tried to choose my words carefully and say we had similar sympathies (rather than “we agree”) because I think you and I both tend to think that the right criterion for judging the extent to which ticket systems are “fair” is the extent to which they result in the most face-value tickets ending up in the hands of people who want to attend the show. My point was that that is (obviously) not the only conception of fairness, and furthermore that there is space to adopt a different definition of fairness that doesn’t simply resolve to “economic might makes right,” and people of good faith could, under certain assumptions, conclude that the availability of a robust secondary market increases overall “fairness” for reasons other than “fuck you I want mine.”
Taken to the extreme, I think your comment here could be read as completely foreclosing the possibility that any ticket system that operates within the larger economic systems prevailing in the US (and I’d say at least the rest of the portions of the planet that Pearl Jam is likely to play) could be considered “fair” and that any further analysis is useless. Even a system where free, 100% non-transferable tickets were raffled off would privilege those of us who have computers with which to enter it, jobs that allow us to attend the show, access to child care, etc. On the one hand that’s kind of a non-sequiter, on the other once you admit the possibility of fairness within those constraints, were just haggling about the proverbial price.
I do sincerely appreciate thoughtful responses, so I apologize if I'm coming across as dickish (to you, at least--I'm happy to be dickish to some others). I imagine we're approaching the entire issue from fundamentally different starting points, because, yeah, "any ticket system that operates" under capitalism is unfair. I don't think that necessarily makes all further analysis useless. We can still say X is worse than Y, while recognizing that X and Y are both bad. I guess my point then--as my sleep-deprived mind struggles to recall it--is simply that the frame you offered for reconceptualizing fairness relied on underpinning notions of the market. From my perspective, if the market is fundamentally unfair, the creation of a secondary market that reproduces in magnified form the inequalities of the original market can only be...more unfair.
What if there were a system that operated the way PJ is attempting with this tour, except that the face value of each ticket was $5,000. Which shows would then be operating under the more “fair” system, in your estimation: the ones where tickets could only be obtained for face value, or NY and CO where the secondary market prices were driven by supply and demand?
Starting to pop up on more major scalper sites. VIP Seats is a pretty well known legit site, they have tickets to every show......
It's the exact same software with the exact same ticket listings as the link provided above.
Yea most professional scalpers/brokers will list their inventory across all platforms.
Again, the system worked. The percentage of tickets on the secondary market is remarkably low, which is what they wanted.
It sounds to me while reading this thread that some people are slowly realizing that scalpers are a necessary evil. For years all I read on this board were "bots and scalpers ruin it for everyone! Die!" and now all I see are "you know, this really hurts the people who didn't get tickets because now we have nowhere to go to get them..."
Necessary? In the sense that people with the funds/motivation to buy from scalpers need them to get into shows, I suppose you're right. But let's imagine a world without scalping. How do the shows/crowds themselves differ? Some people are shut out, but others get in. Who gets in might look marginally different (better? worse?). I think the "necessary evil" bit is implicit fatalism coupled with insidious classism.
I’m not sure whether these questions were rhetorical or not, but to me at least the answers are not clear. Even if you try to set aside you own particular interests and view it objectively, I think how you look at it depends on both how you conceptualize the distribution of fans relative to their ability to avail themselves of the optionality offered by the scalping market (which, as @MickeyMouse points out, will differ depending not just on the distribution of cash among the fans but on what kind of markup we’re talking about, which depends on the supply/demand dynamics of the particular show) AND how you think about the fairness of the face value ticket price. If you set the face value as the “default” price and think of the scalping market as offering tickets at unfairly high rates, it looks one way. If you think about the secondary market as establishing the “fair” price based on supply and demand, and the initial “face value” sales as essentially a lottery for discounted tickets, it looks another way.
The above paragraph is based on a process-oriented approach toward this question, but your questions also suggest a potential outcome-oriented approach (under which system would the shows be better?) that I’d prefer not to engage with, because to me it necessarily involves a level of insidious (if not invidious) classism (i.e. rich fans are somehow worse as fans).
For what it’s worth, I think you and I tend to have the same sympathies and at least on an intellectual level I’d prefer a world with less or no scalping, and I support the band’s efforts in this regard and applaud their success. But also, as someone who could afford to do it if I wanted I sure wish I could hop on StubHub and grab some tickets for Baltimore.
I appreciate your response and ideas, but this curmudgeonly Leftist must say I'm not sure how much our sympathies align, because I'd never even entertain the notion that the market or supply and demand are reconcilable with fairness. Markets are, by definition, unfair. So, my disdain for the secondary market comes from creating an even less palatable market on top of another.
Ok, so the questions were rhetorical. Sorry for wasting everyone’s time.
I tried to choose my words carefully and say we had similar sympathies (rather than “we agree”) because I think you and I both tend to think that the right criterion for judging the extent to which ticket systems are “fair” is the extent to which they result in the most face-value tickets ending up in the hands of people who want to attend the show. My point was that that is (obviously) not the only conception of fairness, and furthermore that there is space to adopt a different definition of fairness that doesn’t simply resolve to “economic might makes right,” and people of good faith could, under certain assumptions, conclude that the availability of a robust secondary market increases overall “fairness” for reasons other than “fuck you I want mine.”
Taken to the extreme, I think your comment here could be read as completely foreclosing the possibility that any ticket system that operates within the larger economic systems prevailing in the US (and I’d say at least the rest of the portions of the planet that Pearl Jam is likely to play) could be considered “fair” and that any further analysis is useless. Even a system where free, 100% non-transferable tickets were raffled off would privilege those of us who have computers with which to enter it, jobs that allow us to attend the show, access to child care, etc. On the one hand that’s kind of a non-sequiter, on the other once you admit the possibility of fairness within those constraints, were just haggling about the proverbial price.
I do sincerely appreciate thoughtful responses, so I apologize if I'm coming across as dickish (to you, at least--I'm happy to be dickish to some others). I imagine we're approaching the entire issue from fundamentally different starting points, because, yeah, "any ticket system that operates" under capitalism is unfair. I don't think that necessarily makes all further analysis useless. We can still say X is worse than Y, while recognizing that X and Y are both bad. I guess my point then--as my sleep-deprived mind struggles to recall it--is simply that the frame you offered for reconceptualizing fairness relied on underpinning notions of the market. From my perspective, if the market is fundamentally unfair, the creation of a secondary market that reproduces in magnified form the inequalities of the original market can only be...more unfair.
What if there were a system that operated the way PJ is attempting with this tour, except that the face value of each ticket was $5,000. Which shows would then be operating under the more “fair” system, in your estimation: the ones where tickets could only be obtained for face value, or NY and CO where the secondary market prices were driven by supply and demand?
This is one of those giant douche v. turd sandwich choices, but I’m going with option 1, primarily because I have a soft spot for artists. At least PJ is producing something of value, whereas resalers are not.
Starting to pop up on more major scalper sites. VIP Seats is a pretty well known legit site, they have tickets to every show......
It's the exact same software with the exact same ticket listings as the link provided above.
Yea most professional scalpers/brokers will list their inventory across all platforms.
Again, the system worked. The percentage of tickets on the secondary market is remarkably low, which is what they wanted.
It sounds to me while reading this thread that some people are slowly realizing that scalpers are a necessary evil. For years all I read on this board were "bots and scalpers ruin it for everyone! Die!" and now all I see are "you know, this really hurts the people who didn't get tickets because now we have nowhere to go to get them..."
Necessary? In the sense that people with the funds/motivation to buy from scalpers need them to get into shows, I suppose you're right. But let's imagine a world without scalping. How do the shows/crowds themselves differ? Some people are shut out, but others get in. Who gets in might look marginally different (better? worse?). I think the "necessary evil" bit is implicit fatalism coupled with insidious classism.
I’m not sure whether these questions were rhetorical or not, but to me at least the answers are not clear. Even if you try to set aside you own particular interests and view it objectively, I think how you look at it depends on both how you conceptualize the distribution of fans relative to their ability to avail themselves of the optionality offered by the scalping market (which, as @MickeyMouse points out, will differ depending not just on the distribution of cash among the fans but on what kind of markup we’re talking about, which depends on the supply/demand dynamics of the particular show) AND how you think about the fairness of the face value ticket price. If you set the face value as the “default” price and think of the scalping market as offering tickets at unfairly high rates, it looks one way. If you think about the secondary market as establishing the “fair” price based on supply and demand, and the initial “face value” sales as essentially a lottery for discounted tickets, it looks another way.
The above paragraph is based on a process-oriented approach toward this question, but your questions also suggest a potential outcome-oriented approach (under which system would the shows be better?) that I’d prefer not to engage with, because to me it necessarily involves a level of insidious (if not invidious) classism (i.e. rich fans are somehow worse as fans).
For what it’s worth, I think you and I tend to have the same sympathies and at least on an intellectual level I’d prefer a world with less or no scalping, and I support the band’s efforts in this regard and applaud their success. But also, as someone who could afford to do it if I wanted I sure wish I could hop on StubHub and grab some tickets for Baltimore.
I appreciate your response and ideas, but this curmudgeonly Leftist must say I'm not sure how much our sympathies align, because I'd never even entertain the notion that the market or supply and demand are reconcilable with fairness. Markets are, by definition, unfair. So, my disdain for the secondary market comes from creating an even less palatable market on top of another.
Ok, so the questions were rhetorical. Sorry for wasting everyone’s time.
I tried to choose my words carefully and say we had similar sympathies (rather than “we agree”) because I think you and I both tend to think that the right criterion for judging the extent to which ticket systems are “fair” is the extent to which they result in the most face-value tickets ending up in the hands of people who want to attend the show. My point was that that is (obviously) not the only conception of fairness, and furthermore that there is space to adopt a different definition of fairness that doesn’t simply resolve to “economic might makes right,” and people of good faith could, under certain assumptions, conclude that the availability of a robust secondary market increases overall “fairness” for reasons other than “fuck you I want mine.”
Taken to the extreme, I think your comment here could be read as completely foreclosing the possibility that any ticket system that operates within the larger economic systems prevailing in the US (and I’d say at least the rest of the portions of the planet that Pearl Jam is likely to play) could be considered “fair” and that any further analysis is useless. Even a system where free, 100% non-transferable tickets were raffled off would privilege those of us who have computers with which to enter it, jobs that allow us to attend the show, access to child care, etc. On the one hand that’s kind of a non-sequiter, on the other once you admit the possibility of fairness within those constraints, were just haggling about the proverbial price.
I do sincerely appreciate thoughtful responses, so I apologize if I'm coming across as dickish (to you, at least--I'm happy to be dickish to some others). I imagine we're approaching the entire issue from fundamentally different starting points, because, yeah, "any ticket system that operates" under capitalism is unfair. I don't think that necessarily makes all further analysis useless. We can still say X is worse than Y, while recognizing that X and Y are both bad. I guess my point then--as my sleep-deprived mind struggles to recall it--is simply that the frame you offered for reconceptualizing fairness relied on underpinning notions of the market. From my perspective, if the market is fundamentally unfair, the creation of a secondary market that reproduces in magnified form the inequalities of the original market can only be...more unfair.
What if there were a system that operated the way PJ is attempting with this tour, except that the face value of each ticket was $5,000. Which shows would then be operating under the more “fair” system, in your estimation: the ones where tickets could only be obtained for face value, or NY and CO where the secondary market prices were driven by supply and demand?
This is one of those giant douche v. turd sandwich choices, but I’m going with option 1, primarily because I have a soft spot for artists. At least PJ is producing something of value, whereas resalers are not.
I see, so the relevant question is not who gets the tickets or why, but who is profiting from it. In that case I guess it’s true that our sympathies are not in alignment, residing as mine do with the workaday hustlers of the secondary market over the corporate fatcats at Ticketmaster.
Starting to pop up on more major scalper sites. VIP Seats is a pretty well known legit site, they have tickets to every show......
It's the exact same software with the exact same ticket listings as the link provided above.
Honestly? Good. I have no other way of getting to these gigs. So I’m glad they’re showing up on these sites.
Sigh.
Sigh what? Did you get tickets through the lottery? I didn’t. So what? I shouldn’t buy on stubhub if I can’t score an extra pair from a fellow member, who isn’t trying to trade an extra pair for another show? I don’t get the sigh
Sigh because you're glad there's scalping so you can go to the show. That's shortsighted, selfish, and a big reason why scalping "works." We have, on one hand, the band trying to minimize (and, ideally, eliminate) scalping. On the other hand, we have fans saying "fuck that: I gotta get mine." So, yeah: sigh.
so if you can't win tickets or get them through TM.....you should simply accept it and not buy on the secondary market?
Any new realizations... would have to wait... Til he had more time,... more time... Time to dream,... to himself... he waves goodbye, To himself... I'll see you on the other side...
Starting to pop up on more major scalper sites. VIP Seats is a pretty well known legit site, they have tickets to every show......
It's the exact same software with the exact same ticket listings as the link provided above.
Honestly? Good. I have no other way of getting to these gigs. So I’m glad they’re showing up on these sites.
Sigh.
Sigh what? Did you get tickets through the lottery? I didn’t. So what? I shouldn’t buy on stubhub if I can’t score an extra pair from a fellow member, who isn’t trying to trade an extra pair for another show? I don’t get the sigh
Sigh because you're glad there's scalping so you can go to the show. That's shortsighted, selfish, and a big reason why scalping "works." We have, on one hand, the band trying to minimize (and, ideally, eliminate) scalping. On the other hand, we have fans saying "fuck that: I gotta get mine." So, yeah: sigh.
so if you can't win tickets or get them through TM.....you should simply accept it and not buy on the secondary market?
I just wonder how they have pit tickets listed for the LA show?
I stand corrected....If a 10c member entered GA only and got tix then they would know for sure.
Yes those fuckers should be sought out and booted
Agreed. I can only think whomever is the scalper is going as well and will walk these people in as the notes on the tickets say - "Customer will meet rep at venue the night of the event"
How will this work? Wouldn't the scalper have to go into the show? So, we'd have one scalper attending the concert for each listing?
If I'm a 10c member that won two GA tix then yes...I would enter the show with you and attend myself
I guess there is really no way to stop that type of scalping
This requirement then would, at very least, seem to significantly hamper professional scalpers.
Yes unless the pros become 10c members and then just sell both tix along with the TM account
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
I see, so the relevant question is not who gets the tickets or why, but who is profiting from it. In that case I guess it’s true that our sympathies are not in alignment, residing as mine do with the workaday hustlers of the secondary market over the corporate fatcats at Ticketmaster.
Apologies if I misunderstood: I assumed the extra money was going to the band, not to TM (which should be fired into the sun). I’m a little skeptical of your image of the proletarian scalpers, so in that case I’ll change my choice to equally shitty.
Starting to pop up on more major scalper sites. VIP Seats is a pretty well known legit site, they have tickets to every show......
It's the exact same software with the exact same ticket listings as the link provided above.
Honestly? Good. I have no other way of getting to these gigs. So I’m glad they’re showing up on these sites.
Sigh.
Sigh what? Did you get tickets through the lottery? I didn’t. So what? I shouldn’t buy on stubhub if I can’t score an extra pair from a fellow member, who isn’t trying to trade an extra pair for another show? I don’t get the sigh
Sigh because you're glad there's scalping so you can go to the show. That's shortsighted, selfish, and a big reason why scalping "works." We have, on one hand, the band trying to minimize (and, ideally, eliminate) scalping. On the other hand, we have fans saying "fuck that: I gotta get mine." So, yeah: sigh.
so if you can't win tickets or get them through TM.....you should simply accept it and not buy on the secondary market?
Right.
but you'd take 22k if someone offered you it for a pair at msg.....lol
Any new realizations... would have to wait... Til he had more time,... more time... Time to dream,... to himself... he waves goodbye, To himself... I'll see you on the other side...
I see, so the relevant question is not who gets the tickets or why, but who is profiting from it. In that case I guess it’s true that our sympathies are not in alignment, residing as mine do with the workaday hustlers of the secondary market over the corporate fatcats at Ticketmaster.
Apologies if I misunderstood: I assumed the extra money was going to the band, not to TM (which should be fired into the sun). I’m a little skeptical of your image of the proletarian scalpers, so in that case I’ll change my choice to equally shitty.
I was making a joke, sorry if that didn’t come through. We’re pretty far afield of the original point I think.
Starting to pop up on more major scalper sites. VIP Seats is a pretty well known legit site, they have tickets to every show......
It's the exact same software with the exact same ticket listings as the link provided above.
Honestly? Good. I have no other way of getting to these gigs. So I’m glad they’re showing up on these sites.
Sigh.
Sigh what? Did you get tickets through the lottery? I didn’t. So what? I shouldn’t buy on stubhub if I can’t score an extra pair from a fellow member, who isn’t trying to trade an extra pair for another show? I don’t get the sigh
Sigh because you're glad there's scalping so you can go to the show. That's shortsighted, selfish, and a big reason why scalping "works." We have, on one hand, the band trying to minimize (and, ideally, eliminate) scalping. On the other hand, we have fans saying "fuck that: I gotta get mine." So, yeah: sigh.
so if you can't win tickets or get them through TM.....you should simply accept it and not buy on the secondary market?
Right.
but you'd take 22k if someone offered you it for a pair at msg.....lol
Absolutely. I’m very principled except when confronted with large amounts of cash (for clarity: I’m joking here as I was there).
I see, so the relevant question is not who gets the tickets or why, but who is profiting from it. In that case I guess it’s true that our sympathies are not in alignment, residing as mine do with the workaday hustlers of the secondary market over the corporate fatcats at Ticketmaster.
Apologies if I misunderstood: I assumed the extra money was going to the band, not to TM (which should be fired into the sun). I’m a little skeptical of your image of the proletarian scalpers, so in that case I’ll change my choice to equally shitty.
I was making a joke, sorry if that didn’t come through. We’re pretty far afield of the original point I think.
No worries. I can’t recall the original point, so you’re probably right.
I do wonder what Stubhub will look like when ten club members get their seat locations for MSG and Denver. The reason why MSG only has a couple hundred seats is probably because if MSG holds 20,000 probably 13,000 went to ten club members. At this point they can't be listed on Stubhub because they don't know where the seats actually are.
I just wonder how they have pit tickets listed for the LA show?
I stand corrected....If a 10c member entered GA only and got tix then they would know for sure.
Yes those fuckers should be sought out and booted
Agreed. I can only think whomever is the scalper is going as well and will walk these people in as the notes on the tickets say - "Customer will meet rep at venue the night of the event"
How will this work? Wouldn't the scalper have to go into the show? So, we'd have one scalper attending the concert for each listing?
If I'm a 10c member that won two GA tix then yes...I would enter the show with you and attend myself
I guess there is really no way to stop that type of scalping
This requirement then would, at very least, seem to significantly hamper professional scalpers.
Yes unless the pros become 10c members and then just sell both tix along with the TM account
Oh, I bet there's definitely some of that going down. Remember the Great PJ20 Deluxe Edition DVD Debacle Of 2011? Someone was hocking extra copies on eBay for like $2000. Their avatar was even the same on here as it was on there, lol.
"It's best to live in grace before you're forced to." EV- 10/09/2014
I see, so the relevant question is not who gets the tickets or why, but who is profiting from it. In that case I guess it’s true that our sympathies are not in alignment, residing as mine do with the workaday hustlers of the secondary market over the corporate fatcats at Ticketmaster.
Apologies if I misunderstood: I assumed the extra money was going to the band, not to TM (which should be fired into the sun). I’m a little skeptical of your image of the proletarian scalpers, so in that case I’ll change my choice to equally shitty.
I was making a joke, sorry if that didn’t come through. We’re pretty far afield of the original point I think.
No worries. I can’t recall the original point, so you’re probably right.
Actually wait, I don’t know if we’re done.
In my hypothetical, presumably the non-transferable shows would be played to small crowds composed exclusively of people who could pay $5K per ticket, while the other shows would be played to arenas full of a combination of people willing to pay $5K up front and people who paid let’s say $500 on the open market. If I’m understanding your responses right, in your eyes the two are basically equivalent in their “fairness”, rewarding as they both do people who were able to get into the show via an exercise of their economic might, and therefore we must move to some other criteria (like who’s profiting) in order to judge which one is more desirable.
But if those two hypothetical cases are equivalent, doesn’t it follow that the two possibilities under actual consideration here (broadly speaking, A World With Scalpers and Face Value Only World) are also equivalent, rewarding as they both do people who were able to get into the show via an exercise of their economic might?
I see, so the relevant question is not who gets the tickets or why, but who is profiting from it. In that case I guess it’s true that our sympathies are not in alignment, residing as mine do with the workaday hustlers of the secondary market over the corporate fatcats at Ticketmaster.
Apologies if I misunderstood: I assumed the extra money was going to the band, not to TM (which should be fired into the sun). I’m a little skeptical of your image of the proletarian scalpers, so in that case I’ll change my choice to equally shitty.
I was making a joke, sorry if that didn’t come through. We’re pretty far afield of the original point I think.
No worries. I can’t recall the original point, so you’re probably right.
Actually wait, I don’t know if we’re done.
In my hypothetical, presumably the non-transferable shows would be played to small crowds composed exclusively of people who could pay $5K per ticket, while the other shows would be played to arenas full of a combination of people willing to pay $5K up front and people who paid let’s say $500 on the open market. If I’m understanding your responses right, in your eyes the two are basically equivalent in their “fairness”, rewarding as they both do people who were able to get into the show via an exercise of their economic might, and therefore we must move to some other criteria (like who’s profiting) in order to judge which one is more desirable.
But if those two hypothetical cases are equivalent, doesn’t it follow that the two possibilities under actual consideration here (broadly speaking, A World With Scalpers and Face Value Only World) are also equivalent, rewarding as they both do people who were able to get into the show via an exercise of their economic might?
On baby duty at the moment and don’t want to try responding to this on my phone. Will respond later.
To be fair, some of us use the secondary market pretty much exclusively because of time spent waiting/searching/stressing for tickets sucks. You pay more with zero stress.
I have a bunch of friends asking if I can find them tickets because Phoenix sold out so fast. They’re pretty much screwed. And they’re fans, not fanatics, but fans.
Maybe in the future they can figure out a algorithm and work with stubhub or Ticketmaster’s secondary site that markup is only X% of face value.
Post edited by Foriginal Sin on
Chicago 6/29/98, Alpine Valley(EV) 6/13/99, Alpine Valley 10/08/00, Chicago 10/09/00, Phoenix 10/20/00, Orlando 4/12/03, Tampa 4/13/03, San Diego 6/05/03, Vegas 6/06/03, Phoenix 6/07/03, Chicago 6/18/03, Alpine Valley 6/21/03, Orlando 10/08/04, D.C. 10/11/04, Chicago 5/16/06, Chicago 5/17/06, LA 7/12/08, Chicago 8/23/09, Chicago 8/24/09, LA 10/07/09, San Diego 10/09/09 (Front Row Center, Finally), Phoenix(EV) 11/4/11, Wrigley 7/19/13, Phoenix 11/19/13, Denver 10/22/14, Wrigley 8/20/16, Wrigley 8/22/16
Of course it worked. The silent majority agrees with you. The loudest people on this forum are the ones who aren't thinking logically or clearly and are acting like the band and Ticketmaster just killed their family and ate their dog.
Less than 2% of MSG tickets are on StubHub. The fans won. There is no debate or argument to be made against that. Numbers don't lie. Just because YOU didn't win, doesn't mean the new system is flawed.
MOST people who requested tickets in the lotto got them. Just like they said. They (reportedly) doubled the amount of tickets for 10C. That's incredible. This is above and beyond any other fan club I know of.
The fan-to-fan exchange for the other shows deterred scalpers because there is no money to be made.
Ticket prices are marginally more than for the 2016 tour and in line (or less) than other major "legacy" touring bands.
The majority of complaints I've read on this board the past few weeks come from people who are uninformed, assume they know better, or are just entitled and self-centered beyond anything I've ever seen.
Had this been a traditional tour with 2 night in NY, 2 in Philly, Boston, etc., the praise on this forum would be near universal. The problem isn't the system, it's the lack of shows they chose to do on this first leg that led to demand far outweighing supply in VERY FEW cities.
right on. i totally give credit where credit is due. pj have risen the occasion big time. single tickets for 10c included. makes me pretty fucking proud they go to such great lengths to make sure stubhub gets fucked over...
Yes, the issue is the lack of shows in the east. And they did keep most tickets off stub hub. But... there are stub hub tickets and they will be getting bad publicity when these Super bowl prices become widely known. They made choices for this tour and this is the result. so I’d be careful giving any credit to this situation.
There is only credit due for the choices they made. The band did not "create" any issue. There is no issue. They had a certain time frame available and wanted to play some shows for fans. These are the dates that worked out.
Stubhub has tickets every tour and has "Super bowl prices" every tour... usually for every date on the tour and not just 2. Instead of tickets going through some middle party to one set of fans (those that can afford "Super bowl prices") they went direct to a certain set of fans (ie: Ten Club members).
0
on2legs
Standing in the Jersey rain… Posts: 14,951
To be fair, some of us use the secondary market pretty much exclusively because of time spent waiting/searching/stressing for tickets sucks. You pay more with zero stress.
I have a bunch of friends asking if I can find them tickets because Phoenix sold out so fast. They’re pretty much screwed. And they’re fans, not fanatics, but fans.
Maybe in the future they can figure out a algorithm and work with stubhub or Ticketmaster’s secondary site that markup is only X% of face value.
Better than change the system to a new algorithm... suggest to your friends that they invest $20 in the fan club. I'm thinking they pretty much would have been guaranteed great seats for face value for the show in Phoenix had they joined.
1996: Randall's Island 2 1998: East Rutherford | MSG 1 & 2 2000: Cincinnati | Columbus | Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3 | Boston 1 | Camden 1 & 2 2003: Philadelphia | Uniondale | MSG 1 & 2 | Holmdel 2005: Atlantic City 1 2006: Camden 1 | East Rutherford 1 & 2 2008: Camden 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Newark (EV) 2009: Philadelphia 1, 2 & 4 2010: Newark | MSG 1 & 2 2011: Toronto 1 2013: Wrigley Field | Brooklyn 2 | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2015: Central Park 2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Fenway Park 2 | MSG (TOTD) 2017: Brooklyn (RnR HOF) 2020: MSG | Asbury Park2021: Asbury Park 2022: MSG | Camden | Nashville 2024: MSG 1 & 2 (#50) | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore
Comments
It hasn’t been an embarrassment. It’s been an unmitigated success. Scalping shut down for all but 2 shows. Sellouts for all shows, at face. What more do you want? I know the answer... tickets for yourself. But when demand exceeds supply, some folks miss out. I’m sad for those that do. But a little bit less sad for those who can’t find any other way to deal with it than to complain on this forum.
09/22/96 - Toledo
10/16/14 - Detroit
09/26/21 - Dana Point
10/01/21 - Dana Point
10/02/21 - Dana Point
05/06/22 - Los Angeles
05/07/22 - Los Angeles
07/03/22 - Stockholm
07/05/22 - Copenhagen
09/08/22 - Toronto
09/16/22 - Nashville
09/18/22 - St. Louis
09/20/22 - OKC
09/05/23 - Chicago
09/07/23 - Chicago
05/16/24 - Vegas
05/18/24 - Vegas
You can apply that logic to anything, have you ever paid above face for a poster? Well that’s why people flip posters.
Now I’m glad the band does what they can to minimize scalping, but I’m not going to shame someone who’s willing to do what they have to.
But no matter what people will always be shut out of shows. If there’s 10,000 seats and 20,000 who want to go, people are going to miss out.
Til he had more time,... more time...
Time to dream,... to himself... he waves goodbye,
To himself... I'll see you on the other side...
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
Til he had more time,... more time...
Time to dream,... to himself... he waves goodbye,
To himself... I'll see you on the other side...
In my hypothetical, presumably the non-transferable shows would be played to small crowds composed exclusively of people who could pay $5K per ticket, while the other shows would be played to arenas full of a combination of people willing to pay $5K up front and people who paid let’s say $500 on the open market. If I’m understanding your responses right, in your eyes the two are basically equivalent in their “fairness”, rewarding as they both do people who were able to get into the show via an exercise of their economic might, and therefore we must move to some other criteria (like who’s profiting) in order to judge which one is more desirable.
I have a bunch of friends asking if I can find them tickets because Phoenix sold out so fast. They’re pretty much screwed. And they’re fans, not fanatics, but fans.
Maybe in the future they can figure out a algorithm and work with stubhub or Ticketmaster’s secondary site that markup is only X% of face value.
Stubhub has tickets every tour and has "Super bowl prices" every tour... usually for every date on the tour and not just 2. Instead of tickets going through some middle party to one set of fans (those that can afford "Super bowl prices") they went direct to a certain set of fans (ie: Ten Club members).