Ticketmaster Verified Resale, Dynamic Pricing, etc.

pjl44pjl44 Posts: 3,917
Starting this because I like talking about what's going on with primary/secondary ticket sales and keep derailing the Tool thread. Discuss.
«13

Comments

  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 7,866
    Glad you did! Here's my take.

    There's only a finite amount of money that the market cumulatively is willing to pay for a band's concert tickets in a city. If a show sells out and the subsequent scalper market is successful at selling way over face value in a market, it's a clear sign that original ticket prices were underpriced, and before dynamic pricing, that meant that additional revenue was going to scalpers instead of the band. While Ticketmaster is almost certainly taking a cut of the 'scalping' going on here, the good news is a larger share of it is almost definitely making its way back to the band (which I'm conceptually fine with). The early adopters who had the trigger fingers and managed to avoid the resale market (myself included) now are obligated to pay more on TM than they're used to, but the vast majority of fans - ones who were buying from predominantly scalpers - are likely paying less to slightly less on their tickets on average. 

    Ultimately, Ticketmaster is just a system. Many environments have lived and thrived on dynamic pricing schemas (plane travel, most of the hospitality business, etc.), and retail is the latest (especially since with new AI/ML tools it's easier than ever, and businesses can't afford to leave money on the table anymore). From what I know about this space, I'm confident that if it wasn't Ticketmaster providing this service, it would be another ticket provider sadly. If dynamic pricing is the thing that creates this reality, though, maybe it's time for legislation on reasonable caps on original selling prices. 
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 20,439
    Look up TOOL and Phish tickets.  Both fan bases are outraged.

    Saying or even thinking that it's ok for TM to do reselling themselves rather than a scalper is just dumb.  It IS scalping!!!

    TM isn't a system it's a machine, a finely tuned one at that.  They aren't dumb and they do have concert venues and tickets on lock.  What other company besides an airline, can jack up the price of something that was publicly available five minutes after it went on sale?

    I won't/don't buy over face.

    So I miss a show.  Oh well.

    There is rumbling in the Misfits Community too about how their REGULAR tickets are too high.  Their tickets aren't reselling so that's a good thing.  Hope to get a ticket day of for half the price.
  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 3,917
    Look up TOOL and Phish tickets.  Both fan bases are outraged.

    Saying or even thinking that it's ok for TM to do reselling themselves rather than a scalper is just dumb.  It IS scalping!!!

    TM isn't a system it's a machine, a finely tuned one at that.  They aren't dumb and they do have concert venues and tickets on lock.  What other company besides an airline, can jack up the price of something that was publicly available five minutes after it went on sale?

    I won't/don't buy over face.

    So I miss a show.  Oh well.

    There is rumbling in the Misfits Community too about how their REGULAR tickets are too high.  Their tickets aren't reselling so that's a good thing.  Hope to get a ticket day of for half the price.
    First off, I'm with benjs 100%.

    But let me ask a question - in 2019, how do you define "scalping?"

    To me, it's not 1973 anymore. Tickets will be bought and sold for any given concert along a spectrum of prices. The idea of a static face value is antiquated. I don't think we agree on what it means to "scalp" in 2019 - tickets are going to be resold and to me it's all about whether that's being done from a venue that's part of the show's primary production. 

    And I don't care one bit about fanbase outrage. Fanbases tend to be irrational, selfish, over-obsessed subsets. That same Tool/Phish fan who's bitching about paying market value is flipping posters for the same shows. 

    All that said, I totally have the same approach you do personally. This Tool tour is a perfect example. I don't have tickets yet, but there's a number I won't go over. They're playing arenas which means lots of tickets which means if the price doesn't drop I've simply been priced out.
  • deadendpdeadendp Northeast OhioPosts: 8,308

    2014: Cincinnati
    2016: Lexington and Wrigley 1
  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 3,917
    deadendp said:

    And the "official one" means something entirely different today than it used to. The $400 seat that everyone is up in arms over? That's being sold on the official ticketing site.
  • deadendpdeadendp Northeast OhioPosts: 8,308
    I believe that what everyone is "up in arms over" is the extreme charge over FACE value.  I realize it isn't 1973 and I was just a crinkly newborn then anyhow. I suppose that I am okay with being called antiquated with the hopes that ticket prices would stay static with "official ticketing site" prices remaining face value.
    2014: Cincinnati
    2016: Lexington and Wrigley 1
  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 3,917
    deadendp said:
    I believe that what everyone is "up in arms over" is the extreme charge over FACE value.  I realize it isn't 1973 and I was just a crinkly newborn then anyhow. I suppose that I am okay with being called antiquated with the hopes that ticket prices would stay static with "official ticketing site" prices remaining face value.
    A single face value is a dead concept. The marketplace is too big and too accessible. The focus is always on the tickets that get marked up, but this has presented sooooooo many opportunities to get tickets that are marked down.
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 1,408
    edited October 8
    .dbl.
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 1,408
    Look up TOOL and Phish tickets.  Both fan bases are outraged.

    Saying or even thinking that it's ok for TM to do reselling themselves rather than a scalper is just dumb.  It IS scalping!!!

    TM isn't a system it's a machine, a finely tuned one at that.  They aren't dumb and they do have concert venues and tickets on lock.  What other company besides an airline, can jack up the price of something that was publicly available five minutes after it went on sale?

    I won't/don't buy over face.

    So I miss a show.  Oh well.

    There is rumbling in the Misfits Community too about how their REGULAR tickets are too high.  Their tickets aren't reselling so that's a good thing.  Hope to get a ticket day of for half the price.

    Scalping is a made up word to create the illusion someone other than the band and promoter were earning a premium back in the day.

    If a tour sells out why should a band and promoter not earn more?  Bands have been screwed over by tech. They cant earn anything on albums and royalties are a joke. And now they cant earn from their touring?

    Somehow I landed lowers to Tool Newark on TM. TM is extremely transparent. They told me how many fans were in que before me. They gave me seat location at time of purchase. Something I'd never get from 10c.

    And let's not pretend it's not outrageous to charge the same price for obstructed view nosebleeds as front row. That's a million times worse than Tools $400 tickets.
  • jjflashjjflash Posts: 3,882
    It's definitely created a new twist on purchasing tickets. In the past if you were quick on the draw and a little lucky you could score really nice seats for a reasonable price. Now, if you're quick on the draw you're likely to be shelling out extraordinary amounts of money for tickets which, if you're patient, may eventually drop in price. I recently learned this lesson the hard way with tickets to see the Stones (fortunately, I wound up getting a refund when the N.O. show was postponed). Now, not only do you have to jump thru hoops to try and quickly cart tickets you have to make a quick decision and gamble on whether or not you're getting the best price. Do I buy now, guaranteeing tickets to the show but at an uncomfortable price? Or do I wait for a more reasonable "offer" and perhaps miss on out tickets by waiting? It seems it's the casual music fan who benefits from the system and, unfortunately, the more dedicated music fans, a category which the majority of us here on the forum probably fall into, who are the ones most often faced with the dilemma of (literally) paying the price. 

    When it comes to TM I'm a skeptic. I've little to no faith they're playing an honest game. The #'d queue is helpful but it seems the countdown clock is often bogus. You queue up 10 minutes ahead of time and when the portal opens you're the 6,000th person in line....really?? And when someone "beats" you to tickets 30+ times in a row when trying to cart a pair of tix....really?!? The slow release of tickets....maddening :anguished: TM is the best game we've got; but it is just that: a game.
  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 3,917
    jjflash said:
    It's definitely created a new twist on purchasing tickets. In the past if you were quick on the draw and a little lucky you could score really nice seats for a reasonable price. Now, if you're quick on the draw you're likely to be shelling out extraordinary amounts of money for tickets which, if you're patient, may eventually drop in price. I recently learned this lesson the hard way with tickets to see the Stones (fortunately, I wound up getting a refund when the N.O. show was postponed). Now, not only do you have to jump thru hoops to try and quickly cart tickets you have to make a quick decision and gamble on whether or not you're getting the best price. Do I buy now, guaranteeing tickets to the show but at an uncomfortable price? Or do I wait for a more reasonable "offer" and perhaps miss on out tickets by waiting? It seems it's the casual music fan who benefits from the system and, unfortunately, the more dedicated music fans, a category which the majority of us here on the forum probably fall into, who are the ones most often faced with the dilemma of (literally) paying the price. 

    When it comes to TM I'm a skeptic. I've little to no faith they're playing an honest game. The #'d queue is helpful but it seems the countdown clock is often bogus. You queue up 10 minutes ahead of time and when the portal opens you're the 6,000th person in line....really?? And when someone "beats" you to tickets 30+ times in a row when trying to cart a pair of tix....really?!? The slow release of tickets....maddening :anguished: TM is the best game we've got; but it is just that: a game.
    For big shows, the initial price has increased so much that I almost always wait and grab closer to the show. It's served me well so far. Will be interesting to see what happens with Tool.
  • PoncierPoncier Posts: 9,934
    edited October 8
    The VIP packages that the majority of bands use now to sell the best seats combined with Ticketmaster's massive expansion of what they sell now as "Platinum" tickets (they sell balcony seats as platinum for many shows now for cryin' out loud) also make it quite difficult to get a good seat at the perceived face value. And don't get me started on the extra 20 bucks for "aisle seats" for a seat 4 in from the aisle.
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • dudemandudeman Posts: 2,044
    Why even have face value then? It seems like anymore, buying concert tickets is like an auction. 
    If hope can grow from dirt like me, it can be done. - EV
  • cutzcutz Posts: 8,345
    Posted this in 2016:  https://community.pearljam.com/discussion/259338/lawmaker-fighting-ticket-freeze-out-in-name-of-springsteen#latest

    Lawmaker fighting ticket freeze-out in name of Springsteen

    Well, at least ther trying. And Ticket Master wants stronger laws? Ain't they part of the problem too?



    TRENTON, N.J. (AP) — Tens of thousands of fans will crowd into MetLife Stadium three times over the next week to watch Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band, some because they acted quickly enough to buy tickets at face value — and others because they were willing to pay more on the secondary market.

    U.S. Rep. Bill Pascrell of New Jersey has been seeking for seven years to solve the frustration shared by most people when they try to buy tickets to popular concerts, Broadway shows and sporting events through Ticketmaster.

    He first introduced the Better Oversight of Secondary Sales and Accountability in Concert Ticketing Act — called the BOSS Act in homage to Springsteen — in 2009 after the New Jersey rocker complained fans were directed to a website owned by Ticketmaster where tickets were being offered at more than four times their face value.

    The law would crack down on the use of computerized bots used by ticket brokers to snap up tickets, and also force Ticketmaster to disclose exactly how many tickets are on sale for each show to cut down on some of the mystery.

    "This is a disaster. We all know what they're doing. It's the fans vs. the brokers. I stand with the fans," the Democratic lawmaker said. "I'm going to keep on exposing these people and little by little we're getting to the promised land, as Bruce would say."

    ___

    WHY IS IT SO HARD TO BUY TICKETS?

    More than half the tickets for many events are held for industry insiders or otherwise unavailable to the general public, according to a report by New York's attorney general released in January.

    Investigators in Attorney General Eric Schneiderman's office found that third-party brokers resell tickets on sites like StubHub and TicketsNow at average margins of 49 percent above face value and sometimes more than 10 times the price. Some brokers use illegal specialty software, called "ticket bots," to quickly purchase as many desirable tickets as possible for resale at significant markups, they said.

    The report cited a single broker buying 1,012 tickets within one minute to a U2 concert at Madison Square Garden when they went on sale on Dec. 8, 2014, despite the vendor's claim of a four-ticket limit. By day's end, that broker and one other had 15,000 tickets to U2's North American shows.

    Regular concert fans also lose out when tickets are released to artist fan clubs or sold ahead of time to certain credit card holders.

    "The battle is an uphill one for fans. It's obviously galling that you can be first online or be at the box office or the computer terminal and you realize you're closed out of getting tickets and they're already popping up for sale on some secondary site; it's just maddening," said Russ Haven, legislative counsel for the consumer advocacy group NYPIRG.

    ___

    BOSS vs. BOTS

    Pascrell isn't the only member of Congress looking to address the issue. Rep. Marsha Blackburn, a Republican from Tennessee, and Rep. Paul Tonko, a Democrat from New York, introduced the Better Online Ticket Sales Act in April.

    The BOTS act would make the use of the computer hacking software an "unfair and deceptive practice" under the Federal Trade Commission Act.

    Pascrell said that legislation wouldn't deal with the transparency issue he believes needs to be addressed.

    His legislation would also require them to list all-in prices, so people waiting a half-hour just find out if they're getting tickets know exactly how much they'll cost before being surprised at the checkout.

    "I think there's a mounting sense among the ticket-buying public that something has to get done," Haven said. "When that anger will actually translate into political pressure to get something done, I think we're closer to it, but it's still probably going to take more work."

    ___

    WHAT TICKETMASTER SAYS IT'S DOING:

    Ticketmaster says it is "at war with the bots." The company says it wants "stronger laws and greater enforcement to punish those who want to deny real fans the opportunity to get tickets."
  • ZodZod Posts: 6,225
    I'm seeing two different things.  There is the act of reselling tickets, but there's also the act of using tiered tickets.

    Reselling, I'm not a fan of, but it's a symptom of the band charging less than what people are willing to pay.   Anytime you charge a price lower than it's value, it creates the opportunity to purchase and sell it for profit (arbitrage).  That's why scalping/reselling has been prevalent for decades.   Face Value is often less than market value.   I'm not a big fan of TM being able to do this directly, and in the process earn multiple service charges and a cut of the resold tickets.   It feels like a conflict of interest.   Alternately, if TM didn't do, someone else would, so it's kind of moot.

    This is where tiered pricing comes in.  Bands/Promoters/TM are trying to figure out how they can retain that money instead of resellers.    Now we have VIP packages, platinum tickets etc.... so that there's always tickets for sale, but for sale at secondary market prices.  You don't need to chance buying reseller tickets when you can buy tickets directly from TM at reseller prices.   TM can adjust the prices of the platinum/vip tickets depending on what demand looks like (just like a scalper would).

    As far as I know TM only makes money on service charges.    The prices of the tickets being tiered to maximize revenue benefits the promoter and the band.

    How do I feel about all this?   Ticket prices have spiraled out of control.   I don't live in a major market so I have to travel for big shows.    I'm not energetic enough to travel for crappy seats, nor am I willing to pay through the nose for good seats to see a band I've already seen a number of times.   Basically if the band is doing the thing that maximizes their revenue, their least likely to get me to come out to the show.

    The bands I do repeat don't use tier pricing (or haven't the last time I saw them).  Foo Fighters, PJ etc...

    If you are going to sell tickets at well below market value (ahem PJ!), I think you need to control those tickets.  If you don't then they'll get absorbed by scalpers.  I thought what PJ did on the 2018 tour was great.   Loads of tickets went to fan club, a bunch to verified fan (which is TM's algorithm for trying to determine your not a reseller).   Those tickets were not easily resold.



  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 3,917
    cutz said:
    Posted this in 2016:  https://community.pearljam.com/discussion/259338/lawmaker-fighting-ticket-freeze-out-in-name-of-springsteen#latest

    Lawmaker fighting ticket freeze-out in name of Springsteen

    Well, at least ther trying. And Ticket Master wants stronger laws? Ain't they part of the problem too?



    TRENTON, N.J. (AP) — Tens of thousands of fans will crowd into MetLife Stadium three times over the next week to watch Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band, some because they acted quickly enough to buy tickets at face value — and others because they were willing to pay more on the secondary market.

    U.S. Rep. Bill Pascrell of New Jersey has been seeking for seven years to solve the frustration shared by most people when they try to buy tickets to popular concerts, Broadway shows and sporting events through Ticketmaster.

    He first introduced the Better Oversight of Secondary Sales and Accountability in Concert Ticketing Act — called the BOSS Act in homage to Springsteen — in 2009 after the New Jersey rocker complained fans were directed to a website owned by Ticketmaster where tickets were being offered at more than four times their face value.

    The law would crack down on the use of computerized bots used by ticket brokers to snap up tickets, and also force Ticketmaster to disclose exactly how many tickets are on sale for each show to cut down on some of the mystery.

    "This is a disaster. We all know what they're doing. It's the fans vs. the brokers. I stand with the fans," the Democratic lawmaker said. "I'm going to keep on exposing these people and little by little we're getting to the promised land, as Bruce would say."

    ___

    WHY IS IT SO HARD TO BUY TICKETS?

    More than half the tickets for many events are held for industry insiders or otherwise unavailable to the general public, according to a report by New York's attorney general released in January.

    Investigators in Attorney General Eric Schneiderman's office found that third-party brokers resell tickets on sites like StubHub and TicketsNow at average margins of 49 percent above face value and sometimes more than 10 times the price. Some brokers use illegal specialty software, called "ticket bots," to quickly purchase as many desirable tickets as possible for resale at significant markups, they said.

    The report cited a single broker buying 1,012 tickets within one minute to a U2 concert at Madison Square Garden when they went on sale on Dec. 8, 2014, despite the vendor's claim of a four-ticket limit. By day's end, that broker and one other had 15,000 tickets to U2's North American shows.

    Regular concert fans also lose out when tickets are released to artist fan clubs or sold ahead of time to certain credit card holders.

    "The battle is an uphill one for fans. It's obviously galling that you can be first online or be at the box office or the computer terminal and you realize you're closed out of getting tickets and they're already popping up for sale on some secondary site; it's just maddening," said Russ Haven, legislative counsel for the consumer advocacy group NYPIRG.

    ___

    BOSS vs. BOTS

    Pascrell isn't the only member of Congress looking to address the issue. Rep. Marsha Blackburn, a Republican from Tennessee, and Rep. Paul Tonko, a Democrat from New York, introduced the Better Online Ticket Sales Act in April.

    The BOTS act would make the use of the computer hacking software an "unfair and deceptive practice" under the Federal Trade Commission Act.

    Pascrell said that legislation wouldn't deal with the transparency issue he believes needs to be addressed.

    His legislation would also require them to list all-in prices, so people waiting a half-hour just find out if they're getting tickets know exactly how much they'll cost before being surprised at the checkout.

    "I think there's a mounting sense among the ticket-buying public that something has to get done," Haven said. "When that anger will actually translate into political pressure to get something done, I think we're closer to it, but it's still probably going to take more work."

    ___

    WHAT TICKETMASTER SAYS IT'S DOING:

    Ticketmaster says it is "at war with the bots." The company says it wants "stronger laws and greater enforcement to punish those who want to deny real fans the opportunity to get tickets."
    Usually the hair on the back of my neck stands up when people start talking about legislation, but I'm on board with banning bots and transparency on onsale quantities. 
  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 3,917
    Zod said:
    I'm seeing two different things.  There is the act of reselling tickets, but there's also the act of using tiered tickets.

    Reselling, I'm not a fan of, but it's a symptom of the band charging less than what people are willing to pay.   Anytime you charge a price lower than it's value, it creates the opportunity to purchase and sell it for profit (arbitrage).  That's why scalping/reselling has been prevalent for decades.   Face Value is often less than market value.   I'm not a big fan of TM being able to do this directly, and in the process earn multiple service charges and a cut of the resold tickets.   It feels like a conflict of interest.   Alternately, if TM didn't do, someone else would, so it's kind of moot.

    This is where tiered pricing comes in.  Bands/Promoters/TM are trying to figure out how they can retain that money instead of resellers.    Now we have VIP packages, platinum tickets etc.... so that there's always tickets for sale, but for sale at secondary market prices.  You don't need to chance buying reseller tickets when you can buy tickets directly from TM at reseller prices.   TM can adjust the prices of the platinum/vip tickets depending on what demand looks like (just like a scalper would).

    As far as I know TM only makes money on service charges.    The prices of the tickets being tiered to maximize revenue benefits the promoter and the band.

    How do I feel about all this?   Ticket prices have spiraled out of control.   I don't live in a major market so I have to travel for big shows.    I'm not energetic enough to travel for crappy seats, nor am I willing to pay through the nose for good seats to see a band I've already seen a number of times.   Basically if the band is doing the thing that maximizes their revenue, their least likely to get me to come out to the show.

    The bands I do repeat don't use tier pricing (or haven't the last time I saw them).  Foo Fighters, PJ etc...

    If you are going to sell tickets at well below market value (ahem PJ!), I think you need to control those tickets.  If you don't then they'll get absorbed by scalpers.  I thought what PJ did on the 2018 tour was great.   Loads of tickets went to fan club, a bunch to verified fan (which is TM's algorithm for trying to determine your not a reseller).   Those tickets were not easily resold.



    Agree with all of this. I've definitely seen a dramatic increase in the cost of shows at bigger venues. I always see 311 with my sister - tickets this summer were $120 for decent seats. That's insane for them. There were 3 shows within driving distance and they were all half sold. You could get tickets on StubHub for about $60. There are aspects of this that I find puzzling. 
  • dudemandudeman Posts: 2,044
    Tiered pricing I have no issue with. Premium seats should be able to be sold for more than obstructed view or nose bleeds. I like the idea of knowing that going in. Some shows, I am selective about the view and sound stage. Others, anywhere in the building will do.

    My main complaint lies with Verified Resale and  the price gouging that goes along with it.
    If hope can grow from dirt like me, it can be done. - EV
  • PoncierPoncier Posts: 9,934
    Zod said:


    As far as I know TM only makes money on service charges.    The prices of the tickets being tiered to maximize revenue benefits the promoter and the band.




    Its been proven that some of the "verified resale" tickets available are just Ticketmaster selling seats above face value, so they don't only make money from service charges.

    And the promoter in the vast majority of cases is Live Nation, who by the way is also Ticketmaster. They merged in 2010.
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 3,580

     I posted something similar in the Tool thread:

    I have no problem with tiered pricing. I don't LOVE it, but as a step to try to somewhat impede the resale market, I see no problem with an artist charging more for better seats. Front row seats clearly have a higher value than seats in the back of the floor or even in the back of that section, why should someone other than the artist be the one to make the money off of that?

    At least you know all the pricing from the get go.  

    Again, I don't love it, but I would take if over the reselling shit show we've had to deal with for the last 15 years, or this new platinum pricing bullshit that Ticketmaster has come out with.


  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 3,917
    Poncier said:
    Zod said:


    As far as I know TM only makes money on service charges.    The prices of the tickets being tiered to maximize revenue benefits the promoter and the band.




    Its been proven that some of the "verified resale" tickets available are just Ticketmaster selling seats above face value, so they don't only make money from service charges.

    And the promoter in the vast majority of cases is Live Nation, who by the way is also Ticketmaster. They merged in 2010.
    Do you know how that money flows though? How do you know they keep all of that incremental revenue? There have been stories about high profile artists (Katy Perry and Metallica I think?) being involved in plans to divert good seats. I don't feel like I have a handle on how standard or varied those agreements are. 
  • ZodZod Posts: 6,225
    Poncier said:
    Zod said:


    As far as I know TM only makes money on service charges.    The prices of the tickets being tiered to maximize revenue benefits the promoter and the band.




    Its been proven that some of the "verified resale" tickets available are just Ticketmaster selling seats above face value, so they don't only make money from service charges.

    And the promoter in the vast majority of cases is Live Nation, who by the way is also Ticketmaster. They merged in 2010.
    Are you able to point me in the direction of where it was proven?  I thought it was a conflict of interest and that it created potential for this to happen.  I hadn't realized it had occured.. would like to know more.

    I do know what promoters will sell tickets directly to brokers for above face to get more money on the tickets (to make more money and pay larger guarantees to the band).   It makes me wonder how TM is going about it.   Directly selling them themselves, or promoter selling the tickets directly to a broker, who then resells via TM.

    I also had to sell a pair of GNR tickets a few years ago (bought a better pair).   TM's cut was nasty.    Stubhub was a fair bit cheaper.   If your a person trying to sell an extra pair you already have to ask way above face just to break even :(
  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 3,917
    Zod said:
    Poncier said:
    Zod said:


    As far as I know TM only makes money on service charges.    The prices of the tickets being tiered to maximize revenue benefits the promoter and the band.




    Its been proven that some of the "verified resale" tickets available are just Ticketmaster selling seats above face value, so they don't only make money from service charges.

    And the promoter in the vast majority of cases is Live Nation, who by the way is also Ticketmaster. They merged in 2010.


    I also had to sell a pair of GNR tickets a few years ago (bought a better pair).   TM's cut was nasty.    Stubhub was a fair bit cheaper.   If your a person trying to sell an extra pair you already have to ask way above face just to break even :(
    That's another good point. Convenience has definitely come with a cost. It's the same when you're selling stuff on Ebay. Ebay takes their slice, PayPal takes their slice, then you rub your chin a little. 
  • cutzcutz Posts: 8,345
    There was a better Video of this that someone posted awhile back, but i can't find it. Here's another:


  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 20,439
    pjl44 said:
    Zod said:
    Poncier said:
    Zod said:


    As far as I know TM only makes money on service charges.    The prices of the tickets being tiered to maximize revenue benefits the promoter and the band.




    Its been proven that some of the "verified resale" tickets available are just Ticketmaster selling seats above face value, so they don't only make money from service charges.

    And the promoter in the vast majority of cases is Live Nation, who by the way is also Ticketmaster. They merged in 2010.


    I also had to sell a pair of GNR tickets a few years ago (bought a better pair).   TM's cut was nasty.    Stubhub was a fair bit cheaper.   If your a person trying to sell an extra pair you already have to ask way above face just to break even :(
    That's another good point. Convenience has definitely come with a cost. It's the same when you're selling stuff on Ebay. Ebay takes their slice, PayPal takes their slice, then you rub your chin a little. 
    I do believe that you are the only person in the discussion that doesn't have a problem w TM and or the Platinum seats.
  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 3,917
    pjl44 said:
    Zod said:
    Poncier said:
    Zod said:


    As far as I know TM only makes money on service charges.    The prices of the tickets being tiered to maximize revenue benefits the promoter and the band.




    Its been proven that some of the "verified resale" tickets available are just Ticketmaster selling seats above face value, so they don't only make money from service charges.

    And the promoter in the vast majority of cases is Live Nation, who by the way is also Ticketmaster. They merged in 2010.


    I also had to sell a pair of GNR tickets a few years ago (bought a better pair).   TM's cut was nasty.    Stubhub was a fair bit cheaper.   If your a person trying to sell an extra pair you already have to ask way above face just to break even :(
    That's another good point. Convenience has definitely come with a cost. It's the same when you're selling stuff on Ebay. Ebay takes their slice, PayPal takes their slice, then you rub your chin a little. 
    I do believe that you are the only person in the discussion that doesn't have a problem w TM and or the Platinum seats.
    Huh? I would encourage you to reread posts by benjs, lerxst, zod, and to some extent dudeman.
  • PoncierPoncier Posts: 9,934
    edited October 9
    Zod said:
    Poncier said:
    Zod said:


    As far as I know TM only makes money on service charges.    The prices of the tickets being tiered to maximize revenue benefits the promoter and the band.




    Its been proven that some of the "verified resale" tickets available are just Ticketmaster selling seats above face value, so they don't only make money from service charges.

    And the promoter in the vast majority of cases is Live Nation, who by the way is also Ticketmaster. They merged in 2010.
    Are you able to point me in the direction of where it was proven?  I thought it was a conflict of interest and that it created potential for this to happen.  I hadn't realized it had occured.. would like to know more.

    I do know what promoters will sell tickets directly to brokers for above face to get more money on the tickets (to make more money and pay larger guarantees to the band).   It makes me wonder how TM is going about it.   Directly selling them themselves, or promoter selling the tickets directly to a broker, who then resells via TM.

    I also had to sell a pair of GNR tickets a few years ago (bought a better pair).   TM's cut was nasty.    Stubhub was a fair bit cheaper.   If your a person trying to sell an extra pair you already have to ask way above face just to break even :(
    I have seen on maps the red "resale" dots miraculously change back to blue "regular box office" dots on some shows where they didn't sell at the inflated price and I know a broker pretty well and within that industry (if you watch taht video cutz posted you'll see brokers band together and network) they are aware that Live NAtion/Ticketmaseter pulls all kinds of shenanigans including instantly popping some seats on as resale. There is no way for anyone to know where those resale tix on the Ticketmaster page originated from.
     
    https://nypost.com/2018/09/20/shocking-report-accuses-ticketmaster-of-colluding-with-scalpers/

    The Metallica situation pj144 mentioned:
    https://loudwire.com/metallica-rep-live-nation-scam/

    "The deal gave 40 percent of the resale revenue to Metallica, 40 percent to Live Nation..." Remember Live Nation is Ticketmaster.

    The system is rigged heavily against the average Joe.


    This weekend we rock Portland
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 1,408
    dudeman said:
    Why even have face value then? It seems like anymore, buying concert tickets is like an auction. 

    Technically there is no face value anymore. Paper tickets are long gone and the e tickets ive used dont have a price on them.
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 1,408
    Zod said:
    I'm seeing two different things.  There is the act of reselling tickets, but there's also the act of using tiered tickets.

    Reselling, I'm not a fan of, but it's a symptom of the band charging less than what people are willing to pay.   Anytime you charge a price lower than it's value, it creates the opportunity to purchase and sell it for profit (arbitrage).  That's why scalping/reselling has been prevalent for decades.   Face Value is often less than market value.   I'm not a big fan of TM being able to do this directly, and in the process earn multiple service charges and a cut of the resold tickets.   It feels like a conflict of interest.   Alternately, if TM didn't do, someone else would, so it's kind of moot.

    This is where tiered pricing comes in.  Bands/Promoters/TM are trying to figure out how they can retain that money instead of resellers.    Now we have VIP packages, platinum tickets etc.... so that there's always tickets for sale, but for sale at secondary market prices.  You don't need to chance buying reseller tickets when you can buy tickets directly from TM at reseller prices.   TM can adjust the prices of the platinum/vip tickets depending on what demand looks like (just like a scalper would).

    As far as I know TM only makes money on service charges.    The prices of the tickets being tiered to maximize revenue benefits the promoter and the band.

    How do I feel about all this?   Ticket prices have spiraled out of control.   I don't live in a major market so I have to travel for big shows.    I'm not energetic enough to travel for crappy seats, nor am I willing to pay through the nose for good seats to see a band I've already seen a number of times.   Basically if the band is doing the thing that maximizes their revenue, their least likely to get me to come out to the show.

    The bands I do repeat don't use tier pricing (or haven't the last time I saw them).  Foo Fighters, PJ etc...

    If you are going to sell tickets at well below market value (ahem PJ!), I think you need to control those tickets.  If you don't then they'll get absorbed by scalpers.  I thought what PJ did on the 2018 tour was great.   Loads of tickets went to fan club, a bunch to verified fan (which is TM's algorithm for trying to determine your not a reseller).   Those tickets were not easily resold.




    Ahem man, you know that's not true for many of us not grandfathered into the good seats. 
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 1,408
    pjl44 said:
    cutz said:
    Posted this in 2016:  https://community.pearljam.com/discussion/259338/lawmaker-fighting-ticket-freeze-out-in-name-of-springsteen#latest

    Lawmaker fighting ticket freeze-out in name of Springsteen

    Well, at least ther trying. And Ticket Master wants stronger laws? Ain't they part of the problem too?



    TRENTON, N.J. (AP) — Tens of thousands of fans will crowd into MetLife Stadium three times over the next week to watch Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band, some because they acted quickly enough to buy tickets at face value — and others because they were willing to pay more on the secondary market.

    U.S. Rep. Bill Pascrell of New Jersey has been seeking for seven years to solve the frustration shared by most people when they try to buy tickets to popular concerts, Broadway shows and sporting events through Ticketmaster.

    He first introduced the Better Oversight of Secondary Sales and Accountability in Concert Ticketing Act — called the BOSS Act in homage to Springsteen — in 2009 after the New Jersey rocker complained fans were directed to a website owned by Ticketmaster where tickets were being offered at more than four times their face value.

    The law would crack down on the use of computerized bots used by ticket brokers to snap up tickets, and also force Ticketmaster to disclose exactly how many tickets are on sale for each show to cut down on some of the mystery.

    "This is a disaster. We all know what they're doing. It's the fans vs. the brokers. I stand with the fans," the Democratic lawmaker said. "I'm going to keep on exposing these people and little by little we're getting to the promised land, as Bruce would say."

    ___

    WHY IS IT SO HARD TO BUY TICKETS?

    More than half the tickets for many events are held for industry insiders or otherwise unavailable to the general public, according to a report by New York's attorney general released in January.

    Investigators in Attorney General Eric Schneiderman's office found that third-party brokers resell tickets on sites like StubHub and TicketsNow at average margins of 49 percent above face value and sometimes more than 10 times the price. Some brokers use illegal specialty software, called "ticket bots," to quickly purchase as many desirable tickets as possible for resale at significant markups, they said.

    The report cited a single broker buying 1,012 tickets within one minute to a U2 concert at Madison Square Garden when they went on sale on Dec. 8, 2014, despite the vendor's claim of a four-ticket limit. By day's end, that broker and one other had 15,000 tickets to U2's North American shows.

    Regular concert fans also lose out when tickets are released to artist fan clubs or sold ahead of time to certain credit card holders.

    "The battle is an uphill one for fans. It's obviously galling that you can be first online or be at the box office or the computer terminal and you realize you're closed out of getting tickets and they're already popping up for sale on some secondary site; it's just maddening," said Russ Haven, legislative counsel for the consumer advocacy group NYPIRG.

    ___

    BOSS vs. BOTS

    Pascrell isn't the only member of Congress looking to address the issue. Rep. Marsha Blackburn, a Republican from Tennessee, and Rep. Paul Tonko, a Democrat from New York, introduced the Better Online Ticket Sales Act in April.

    The BOTS act would make the use of the computer hacking software an "unfair and deceptive practice" under the Federal Trade Commission Act.

    Pascrell said that legislation wouldn't deal with the transparency issue he believes needs to be addressed.

    His legislation would also require them to list all-in prices, so people waiting a half-hour just find out if they're getting tickets know exactly how much they'll cost before being surprised at the checkout.

    "I think there's a mounting sense among the ticket-buying public that something has to get done," Haven said. "When that anger will actually translate into political pressure to get something done, I think we're closer to it, but it's still probably going to take more work."

    ___

    WHAT TICKETMASTER SAYS IT'S DOING:

    Ticketmaster says it is "at war with the bots." The company says it wants "stronger laws and greater enforcement to punish those who want to deny real fans the opportunity to get tickets."
    Usually the hair on the back of my neck stands up when people start talking about legislation, but I'm on board with banning bots and transparency on onsale quantities. 

    Banning bots sounds like a false flag. We know bands and promoters directly distribute thousands of tickets per show to resellers.
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