Nirvana. Overrated?

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  • pearljammr78pearljammr78 Posts: 536
    Nirvana as a whole, timeless. Probably not. The unplugged. Yes. A couple songs. Yes. 

    Soundgarden, AIC w/ Layne, PJ those bands to me belong with the Floyds, The Beatles, Zeppelin, Hendrix etc. Classic timeless music that will always be good. 
    Peace,Love and Pearl Jam.
  • JT167846JT167846 Posts: 212
    I'd say Nevermind is the most influential album of the 90s so would put it ahead of Unplugged. Also didn't get propped up by Cobain's death. Was among the very best Unplugged releases though no doubt. My brother would agree having flogged my copy so often I never knew where it was. 
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  • ZodZod Posts: 6,173
    I finally thought of the right word.   I think of Nirvana as a "Catalyst".   Aside from a few bands, Hair Metal was ruling the rock roost in the later 80's, and even up to the first few years of the 90s.   Nirvana's music was a 180, being so raw.   It spoke to a lot of people.    This caused a giant spotlight to be pointed at the the early 90's rock bands.    Thus creating a new path for Rock music.

    I don't think being a Catalyst and an Influence are the same thing.  Nirvana was rough, raw and viceral.  As we got further away from the early 90s.  Bands became more polished, bland, and more formulaic.   It seems to me the rock industry went in the complete opposite direction of what Nirvana was.  Thus I don't hear their music influence in modern rock music. 


  • MayDay10MayDay10 Posts: 10,006
    Had Nirvana not paved the way I’m sure someone else would have. 
    I have never been a big fan. Liked a few songs but I just don’t see myself listening to nevermind when I’m sitting at home and 60 years old. 
    I don’t believe it is timeless music. Therefore my vote is for a bit overrated. 


    I was/am a big fan, but I agree.  It isn't music catered toward adults other than the unplugged performance.  People our age hear it and get nostalgic.... but the older I get, the less I seek it out.  I don't see new generations overly gravitating toward it and seeing the value in it.  It was angst and rock that was perfect for 1991.  Most tracks don't seem timeless like Beatles, Doors, Floyd, Stones, Zeppelin, etc.... even as much as contemporaries (or near-so) PJ, SG, Foos, RHCP, Rush, Primus, Pumpkins, Green Day, DMB, etc.  If I had a party of a poker game and played Scentless Apprentice or Breed.... I think I would be asked to skip to the next track.

    I guess it hasnt aged well, while AIC, listening to some tracks and albums is downright haunting.  Nirvana.... Im not feeling the young angst.

    Like mentioned.  Huge flashpoint in music history
  • rummyrummy Ontario, CanadaPosts: 2,998
    Zod said:
    I finally thought of the right word.   I think of Nirvana as a "Catalyst".   Aside from a few bands, Hair Metal was ruling the rock roost in the later 80's, and even up to the first few years of the 90s.   Nirvana's music was a 180, being so raw.   It spoke to a lot of people.    This caused a giant spotlight to be pointed at the the early 90's rock bands.    Thus creating a new path for Rock music.

    I don't think being a Catalyst and an Influence are the same thing.  Nirvana was rough, raw and viceral.  As we got further away from the early 90s.  Bands became more polished, bland, and more formulaic.   It seems to me the rock industry went in the complete opposite direction of what Nirvana was.  Thus I don't hear their music influence in modern rock music. 


    I'm on board with this post. "Catalyst" ...I like it. Makes sense indeed.
    Auckland 1998, Toronto 1 2011, London 2013, Buffalo 2013, Toronto 1&2 2016, Seattle 1&2 2018
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 12,074
    Overrated by the average listener, right-rated by the more discerning listener.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • pearljammr78pearljammr78 Posts: 536
    MayDay10 said:
    Had Nirvana not paved the way I’m sure someone else would have. 
    I have never been a big fan. Liked a few songs but I just don’t see myself listening to nevermind when I’m sitting at home and 60 years old. 
    I don’t believe it is timeless music. Therefore my vote is for a bit overrated. 


    I was/am a big fan, but I agree.  It isn't music catered toward adults other than the unplugged performance.  People our age hear it and get nostalgic.... but the older I get, the less I seek it out.  I don't see new generations overly gravitating toward it and seeing the value in it.  It was angst and rock that was perfect for 1991.  Most tracks don't seem timeless like Beatles, Doors, Floyd, Stones, Zeppelin, etc.... even as much as contemporaries (or near-so) PJ, SG, Foos, RHCP, Rush, Primus, Pumpkins, Green Day, DMB, etc.  If I had a party of a poker game and played Scentless Apprentice or Breed.... I think I would be asked to skip to the next track.

    I guess it hasnt aged well, while AIC, listening to some tracks and albums is downright haunting.  Nirvana.... Im not feeling the young angst.

    Like mentioned.  Huge flashpoint in music history
    I agree so much with this post. 
    Peace,Love and Pearl Jam.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,355
    nothing touches nirvana's unplugged. 
    that being said, i was a massive, i mean MASSIVE nirvana fan in the 90's, when they broke, after kurt died, etc. but i have to agree with OP. i rarely listen to them anymore. and nevermind is actually the last album of theirs that i put on. first is in utero, next is bleach, then it's nevermind. i'm far from a punk purist, cause before nirvana, i didn't listen to punk at all. but kurt was right when he said it sounded too polished. it fucking blew my mind when it came out. it was the antithesis to all the music of the time, and it was groundbreaking (at least in the sense that they were the ones who got the attention). i listened to it as much as or more than ten or badmotorfinger. but after listening to their other records and also punk music of the time and previous generations, nevermind's production is punk for the masses. 

    kurt's songwriting is incredible. i think the saddest part of his death was what he could have put out after nirvana's eventual breakup. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,355
    brianlux said:
    It would be helpful to understand how those of you feel who have made comments about not caring for Cobain as a person.  Can you explain why?  Did you know him or meet him?  If you did not meet or know him, do you believe you can know much about a person from what you see of them on camera or read in the tabloids?  Just curious as to how you come to the conclusion you've drawn.  What specifically do you dislike about him as a person?
    things he said in the media, not out of context, not stuff written about him. he seemed like kind of a hypocritical dick. he claimed he didn't want fame. he absolutely wanted fame. every single person around him, including his wife and best friends, have confirmed that.

    he made fun of all the other bands that weren't tied to the punk rock ethos; he did all the interviews, he went on all the shows, they took a big record deal for their second record. i mean, we all make fun of the hair metal bands to some degree, but he openly made fun of how they looked and how they acted on national tv all the while whining about his upbringing of being bullied by people who didn't like him for how he looked and the music he liked. 

    he was apparently a feminist who stockpiled guns and had physical confrontations with his wife. he seemed like quite a huge fraud to me. he seemed to be constantly saying stuff that contradicted things he had said in the recent past. or in how he acted. i think it's possible he felt one way and felt guilty about the fame so he acted another way, but still. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,355
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    It would be helpful to understand how those of you feel who have made comments about not caring for Cobain as a person.  Can you explain why?  Did you know him or meet him?  If you did not meet or know him, do you believe you can know much about a person from what you see of them on camera or read in the tabloids?  Just curious as to how you come to the conclusion you've drawn.  What specifically do you dislike about him as a person?


    You want clarification on why someone might not be a fan of a guy who was doing heroin around his infant daughter?

    I don't believe everything I read in the tabloids.  Maybe he did, maybe he shot up in the bathroom or waited until the kid was asleep. 

    And what about musicians who smoke pot in the home or swear in front of their kids or drink excessively or have an affair or don't believe in Jesus.  Holy shit!  Now we have to stop liking a whole shit load of artists!

    It's good that you don't believe everything you read in tabloids, as they're not known to be reputable. I can't speak for what's written in them, I don't read them.  

    There's a widely held public perception that Kurt & Courtney were active heroin users around their child. Courtney admitting to shooting up while pregnant (even if it was only once), and the aforementioned video of Kurt nodding off while holding the baby do little to refute that perception. I'm comfortable believing it to be true based on the information available to us.

    I think comparing the use of hard drugs in front of / around a child to swearing or not believing in Jesus is ridiculous, do you really equate those things?

    Regarding the other examples, yes... if someone consumes excessive amounts of pot or alcohol in front of a child, or cheats on a spouse, then I'm going to think less of that person. Does this make me judgmental? Maybe, but I'm ok with that.

    I was 15 in '92 when I first started listening to Nirvana, and like so many other grunge bands, they were a big part of my high school years. After reading Heavier than Heaven and watching some of Montage of Heck, I was turned off of Kurt Cobain the person, but I never won't appreciate the music that saw me through my teenage years. 

    I don't, but some people do. 

    What I'm trying to say is that I don't pass judgement on people I don't know.  I love Dinosaur Jr. but for all I know, J Mascis might be the world's biggest asshole (I doubt it!), but his private life is none of my concern.  I love the music, but I don't know the man and am not going to say, "I can't stand that guy".   After all, what do we REALLY know about people we don't know that you hear stuff about?  And if you are judgemental about people you don't know, that's your business.  I'm not passing judgement on you.  Like Clint Conley sings in Mission Of Burma's "Academy Fight Song" says, "I'm not judging you/ I'm judging me."


    Yeah, judgmental or not, I can't not find Love's admission of what she did while pregnant repugnant. I can't un-see the video of Cobain from Montage of Heck, and those things are going to influence my opinion of them as people. I think it's important to note these aren't rumors or here say. They are actual things that happened, not tabloid BS.

    There are plenty of musicians I appreciate who I don't think I would want to have a beer with (Mike Patton, Maynard James Keenan, Josh Hommes to name a few) and that's ok. People are who they are. I'm really only interested in their art.

    But when there's a kid involved and there are things are going on that we know were going on with Kurt & Courtney, I'm going to end up forming a negative opinion of them. It's how I'm wired. If that makes me judgmental then so be it. I've been called worse.


    Sorry OP, didn't mean to derail.

    just for fact checking clarity, and not for excusing, i believe the story goes that courtney shot up while pregnant but before she knew she was pregnant. she didn't shoot up after that. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,355
    The album I meant.
    Marketing is more pushing shit products onto people that mindlessly buy it.
    This song sold itself. It didn't need a video. 
    i would have to disagree. i saw the video first. music video was bigger than radio or any other medium at the time. when teen spirit came on much music's power hour the first time, i honestly recall my jaw dropping. i remember where i was, who i was with. as a massive pj fan, i have no such memory of pj. that was one of those 'where were you when' moments in my own personal history i will never forget. 
  • Attaway77Attaway77 N/APosts: 1,665
    Listening to the Paramount show now once again.... This is freaking 1991 and this shit still sounds great today....  Unreal....
    Dallas 7/5/98, San Francisco 7/15/06, 7/16/06, San Francisco 8/28/09 (OL) Bristow 5/13/10, New York 5/21/10, East Troy 9/3/11-9/4/11 (PJ20), Missoula 9/30/12, Chicago 7/19/13 (Wrigley), Pittsburgh 10/11/13, Buffalo 10/12/13, Baltimore 10/27/13, Dallas 11/15/13, Austin 10/12/14 (ACL), Memphis 10/14/14, St. Paul 10/19/14, Milwaukee 10/20/14, Denver 10/22/14, Fort Lauderdale 4/8/16, Miami 4/9/16, Hampton 4/18/16, Philly 4/28/16, 4/29/16, New York 5/1/16, 5/2/16, Seattle 8/10/18 (Safeco), Missoula 8/13/18
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  • Attaway77Attaway77 N/APosts: 1,665
    Nirvana is not my cup of tea at all. Couple songs are ok. Not something I could see myself listening to when I’m 64 

    Come on man....... That's most music in general as we get older. Still rocking out at 64, right on....
    Dallas 7/5/98, San Francisco 7/15/06, 7/16/06, San Francisco 8/28/09 (OL) Bristow 5/13/10, New York 5/21/10, East Troy 9/3/11-9/4/11 (PJ20), Missoula 9/30/12, Chicago 7/19/13 (Wrigley), Pittsburgh 10/11/13, Buffalo 10/12/13, Baltimore 10/27/13, Dallas 11/15/13, Austin 10/12/14 (ACL), Memphis 10/14/14, St. Paul 10/19/14, Milwaukee 10/20/14, Denver 10/22/14, Fort Lauderdale 4/8/16, Miami 4/9/16, Hampton 4/18/16, Philly 4/28/16, 4/29/16, New York 5/1/16, 5/2/16, Seattle 8/10/18 (Safeco), Missoula 8/13/18
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  • Thoughts_ArriveThoughts_Arrive Melbourne, AustraliaPosts: 13,589
    Attaway77 said:
    Listening to the Paramount show now once again.... This is freaking 1991 and this shit still sounds great today....  Unreal....
    Yep still sounds great to me. 
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 28,094
    Had Nirvana not paved the way I’m sure someone else would have. 
    I have never been a big fan. Liked a few songs but I just don’t see myself listening to nevermind when I’m sitting at home and 60 years old. 
    I don’t believe it is timeless music. Therefore my vote is for a bit overrated. 



    rummy said:
    Had Nirvana not paved the way I’m sure someone else would have. 
    I have never been a big fan. Liked a few songs but I just don’t see myself listening to nevermind when I’m sitting at home and 60 years old. 
    I don’t believe it is timeless music. Therefore my vote is for a bit overrated. 


    I see your point at 60 years old but do you see yourself listen to, say, Ten or Superunknown? (Not sure if you are a SG fan?)

    Oddly enough, I've made it this far (46) so I'll probably still be listening in 14 years.
    68 and still digging Nirvana.  :smiley:
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  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 3,350

    Yeah, for what it's worth, I can't see myself playing Deep, or Blood or Rusty Cage at poker parties either, nor do I see myself cranking Slayer, Guns & Roses or Metallica in my 60s.

    None of that means those songs aren't awesome or those bands weren't hugely popular or influential.


  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 3,350
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    It would be helpful to understand how those of you feel who have made comments about not caring for Cobain as a person.  Can you explain why?  Did you know him or meet him?  If you did not meet or know him, do you believe you can know much about a person from what you see of them on camera or read in the tabloids?  Just curious as to how you come to the conclusion you've drawn.  What specifically do you dislike about him as a person?


    You want clarification on why someone might not be a fan of a guy who was doing heroin around his infant daughter?

    I don't believe everything I read in the tabloids.  Maybe he did, maybe he shot up in the bathroom or waited until the kid was asleep. 

    And what about musicians who smoke pot in the home or swear in front of their kids or drink excessively or have an affair or don't believe in Jesus.  Holy shit!  Now we have to stop liking a whole shit load of artists!

    It's good that you don't believe everything you read in tabloids, as they're not known to be reputable. I can't speak for what's written in them, I don't read them.  

    There's a widely held public perception that Kurt & Courtney were active heroin users around their child. Courtney admitting to shooting up while pregnant (even if it was only once), and the aforementioned video of Kurt nodding off while holding the baby do little to refute that perception. I'm comfortable believing it to be true based on the information available to us.

    I think comparing the use of hard drugs in front of / around a child to swearing or not believing in Jesus is ridiculous, do you really equate those things?

    Regarding the other examples, yes... if someone consumes excessive amounts of pot or alcohol in front of a child, or cheats on a spouse, then I'm going to think less of that person. Does this make me judgmental? Maybe, but I'm ok with that.

    I was 15 in '92 when I first started listening to Nirvana, and like so many other grunge bands, they were a big part of my high school years. After reading Heavier than Heaven and watching some of Montage of Heck, I was turned off of Kurt Cobain the person, but I never won't appreciate the music that saw me through my teenage years. 

    I don't, but some people do. 

    What I'm trying to say is that I don't pass judgement on people I don't know.  I love Dinosaur Jr. but for all I know, J Mascis might be the world's biggest asshole (I doubt it!), but his private life is none of my concern.  I love the music, but I don't know the man and am not going to say, "I can't stand that guy".   After all, what do we REALLY know about people we don't know that you hear stuff about?  And if you are judgemental about people you don't know, that's your business.  I'm not passing judgement on you.  Like Clint Conley sings in Mission Of Burma's "Academy Fight Song" says, "I'm not judging you/ I'm judging me."


    Yeah, judgmental or not, I can't not find Love's admission of what she did while pregnant repugnant. I can't un-see the video of Cobain from Montage of Heck, and those things are going to influence my opinion of them as people. I think it's important to note these aren't rumors or here say. They are actual things that happened, not tabloid BS.

    There are plenty of musicians I appreciate who I don't think I would want to have a beer with (Mike Patton, Maynard James Keenan, Josh Hommes to name a few) and that's ok. People are who they are. I'm really only interested in their art.

    But when there's a kid involved and there are things are going on that we know were going on with Kurt & Courtney, I'm going to end up forming a negative opinion of them. It's how I'm wired. If that makes me judgmental then so be it. I've been called worse.


    Sorry OP, didn't mean to derail.

    just for fact checking clarity, and not for excusing, i believe the story goes that courtney shot up while pregnant but before she knew she was pregnant. she didn't shoot up after that. 


    It's a good, and important point. Noted.

    I like your other comment too, about Cobain's general demeanor in his interviews. He was constantly looking down on other artists and acts, and he came off as a pompous ass.


  • Thoughts_ArriveThoughts_Arrive Melbourne, AustraliaPosts: 13,589
    I have no problem with him looking down on hair metal.
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • MayDay10MayDay10 Posts: 10,006

    Yeah, for what it's worth, I can't see myself playing Deep, or Blood or Rusty Cage at poker parties either, nor do I see myself cranking Slayer, Guns & Roses or Metallica in my 60s.

    None of that means those songs aren't awesome or those bands weren't hugely popular or influential.

    I think many other songs by well-known bands have a timeless quality.  

    If someone immerses themself in David Lee Roth's Van Halen and Guns & Roses... I automatically believe they are trapped in the 80s, have a mullet, and probably either own or aspire to own a trans-am and like to work on cars in their driveway while blasting PANAMA!

    I hear Nirvana, and much moreso than contemporaries.... it is stuck in 1991.  There isnt a lot of material and not a ton of depth to it. 

    I guess a lot of it has to do with the small window Nirvana existed in.  But, on the other hand, Alice In Chains serves as a comparison, and IMO their music holds up a lot better, and doesnt make me think only of MTV videos and ordering Columbia House CDs


  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 15,553
    Nevermind will be timeless in the way of it capturing future generations teenagers and have them pick it up far more than Ten will me thinks.
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • MayDay10MayDay10 Posts: 10,006
    edited August 13
    I dont think Ten is that relevant to the conversation, as I dont think it is a PJ vs Nirvana thing (at least to me).  I mean, if a teenager in 2035 for some reason wants to listen to an entire album from the early 1990s, someone will probably recommend Nevermind, Ten, Siamese Dream, Rage Against The Machine, Dirt, Core, The Chronic, etc...  Not sure any of them stand above the others definitively at that point.  
    Post edited by MayDay10 on
  • Thoughts_ArriveThoughts_Arrive Melbourne, AustraliaPosts: 13,589
    This thread is pointless, we'll never come to an agreement. You have those that love Nirvana and those that don't. Agree to disagree.
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,355
    This thread is pointless, we'll never come to an agreement. You have those that love Nirvana and those that don't. Agree to disagree.
    I don't think it's pointless. these discussions happen all the time, and I particularly enjoy the debate. I love Nirvana, but can also agree with some points that they benefited from right place/right time/right type of music and production/record company push. 
  • rummyrummy Ontario, CanadaPosts: 2,998
    This thread is pointless, we'll never come to an agreement. You have those that love Nirvana and those that don't. Agree to disagree.
    Pretty much all threads on the internet are pointless in the end.

    Auckland 1998, Toronto 1 2011, London 2013, Buffalo 2013, Toronto 1&2 2016, Seattle 1&2 2018
  • Thoughts_ArriveThoughts_Arrive Melbourne, AustraliaPosts: 13,589
    rummy said:
    This thread is pointless, we'll never come to an agreement. You have those that love Nirvana and those that don't. Agree to disagree.
    Pretty much all threads on the internet are pointless in the end.

    and most discussion in real life. Words are meaningless. We talk too much.
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • rummyrummy Ontario, CanadaPosts: 2,998
    If Nevermind isn't "polished" it doesn't resonate and is not the hit it was. I think it sounds fantastic nearly three decades on.
    Auckland 1998, Toronto 1 2011, London 2013, Buffalo 2013, Toronto 1&2 2016, Seattle 1&2 2018
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,355
    rummy said:
    If Nevermind isn't "polished" it doesn't resonate and is not the hit it was. I think it sounds fantastic nearly three decades on.
    I agree with this. I probably wouldn't have liked it if it hadn't been. I mean, when they rushed out Incesticide, I hated it. It was way too fuzzy and underproduced and my ears couldn't take it. Now? I fucking love that compilation. 
  • Tim SimmonsTim Simmons Posts: 3,745
    I hope Nirvana presses the Devonshire mixes of Nevermind on vinyl for a RSD or something. I've been enjoying that mix a ton since it came out a few years ago.

  • Thoughts_ArriveThoughts_Arrive Melbourne, AustraliaPosts: 13,589
    Never heard of this mix
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 15,553
    How was the 2013 in utero mix versus the album?

    I puke on remixes. Stand by your art. That includes ten.
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
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