The all-purpose heavy duty Global Warming/ Climate Change thread sprinkled with hope.

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Comments

  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,932



    brianlux said:
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    brianlux said:
    mickeyrat said:
    mickeyrat said:
     

    I hope the coal states have a contingency plan or there will be a whole lot of people unemployed.
    they didnt for the losses stemming from mountain top removal processes that dodnt require the same number of miners


    2010 to 2020 mining jobs in the u.s.

    Mining coal from the topside or underground is still a job though and they have been in a sharp decline looking at those charts.

    If you go out to those mining areas there isn't a whole lot going on usually and the other areas that stopped mining are just dead towns with no life.

    Put up some wind turbines in those areas for a shot of life?

    I understand for the need to stop burning coal.  It's just the areas that they effect are bad off as it is.  I think of the old steel areas too.  Most of those towns never recovered.

    I agree that cities that go into poverty because of outsourcing or, in the case of coal, discontinuation, need some kind of help with a recovery plan.  I remember passing through downtown Akron, Ohio after the tire industry had moved out.  The place was like a ghost town.  It was strange and sad. 
    The difference, of course, is that Akron and steel towns like Bethlehem PA, etc. suffered due to corporate greed moving the industry and manufacturing to other countries where they could get cheap slave labor.   Coal towns, on the other hand, may die because their industry needs to.  What they need is a transition plan.   I think that could happen if there is a will to make it happen.
    There are a number of towns and small cities in California that died when gold mining dried up. Places like Coloma became something close to being ghost towns but eventually recovered through things like tourism and wine country.  But that had at least as much to do with luck and local than planning.  Hopefully coal town will receive help through good planning.

    Almost like we need a Socialist Green New Deal... A man can dream...
    If you listen to Andrew Yang and the obsolescence of certain jobs it would be wise for America to invest in it's future.
    I have seen the future brother, it is murder...

    But seriously we would have to stop with guns and war, proxy or otherwise and I'm not sure that the future will take precedent before it is too late.  
    We will go on no matter what happens.  Hell, if the world goes to shit it's those rural places that I would rather be in.

    You are wise to have experience in both the worlds of urban and rural. 
    But I would avoid Idaho.  I'm told that these days that state is turning into a completely anti-tolerance, anti-anything-close to liberal, major bastion of the hard core right.   Sounds a bit scary to me!  Too bad, because much of the state is beautiful.  
    I grew up next to Idaho.  Our summer basketball tournaments always conflicted with the Aryan nation parades in Coeur d’Alene.  That was the late 90’s. Hasn’t changed.

    Central and north Idaho tends to be the white power crowd, north Idaho is also full of militia people, anti government not necessarily racist as a primary agenda. South Idaho gets into LDS territory. The Mormons are fine but not exactly tolerant politically 

    I’m spending my vacation next door in a really red state camping at our land in the middle of nowhere,  I enjoy rural but I refuse to interact with a single person when there.  I don’t go for the company so it’s fine with me 

    Yes, ironic isn't it?  Some of the red states have marvelous natural features.  I've been to a number of them as well (including Idaho a couple of times) and done the same thing- gone to see nature, not people.
    Sounds like you have some great vacation plans.  Have a great time!
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 26,124
    gift article.....

    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,932
    mickeyrat said:
    gift article.....


    Great article- good read, very hopeful- thanks! 
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,932
    From a NY Times article this AM:

    Weather forecasters say that Britain this week may experience its highest temperature on record — more than 40 degrees Celsius, or about 105 degrees Fahrenheit. In response, officials in London have asked people to stay home, saying that vehicles may overheat and rail tracks may buckle.

    In France, Greece, Spain and other parts of Europe, the same heat wave has sparked dozens of wildfires.

    In the U.S., parts of the Southwest and the Central Plains are bracing for temperatures that could reach 110 degrees this week. Already, the city of Tulsa has experienced more days above 100 degrees this summer than it historically has in an entire summer on average.

    Yet in the face of these mounting signs and costs of climate change, the U.S. federal government is choosing not to address the problem. Last week, President Biden’s package of policies to reduce climate-warning pollution collapsed, after Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia withdrew his support. Last month, the Supreme Court restricted the Environmental Protection Agency’s authority to reduce pollution at power plants.

    ************************

    Remember all those climate change deniers you used to hear about?


    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MNPosts: 4,360
    The title of this thread is too long. I suggest removing "hope filled."
    1995 Milwaukee
    1998 Alpine, Alpine
    2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston
    2004 Boston, Boston
    2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)
    2011 Alpine, Alpine
    2013 Wrigley
    2014 St. Paul
    2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley
    2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley
    2021 Asbury Park
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,932
    OnWis97 said:
    The title of this thread is too long. I suggest removing "hope filled."

    Better? 
    We have to leave some room for hope.  Otherwise we might as well all jump off a cliff.
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MNPosts: 4,360
    brianlux said:
    OnWis97 said:
    The title of this thread is too long. I suggest removing "hope filled."

    Better? 
    We have to leave some room for hope.  Otherwise we might as well all jump off a cliff.
    LOL. I wasn't actually seriously requesting a change to the title...just may way to say that the sky is falling.
    1995 Milwaukee
    1998 Alpine, Alpine
    2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston
    2004 Boston, Boston
    2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)
    2011 Alpine, Alpine
    2013 Wrigley
    2014 St. Paul
    2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley
    2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley
    2021 Asbury Park
  • static111static111 Posts: 3,824
    brianlux said:
    From a NY Times article this AM:

    Weather forecasters say that Britain this week may experience its highest temperature on record — more than 40 degrees Celsius, or about 105 degrees Fahrenheit. In response, officials in London have asked people to stay home, saying that vehicles may overheat and rail tracks may buckle.

    In France, Greece, Spain and other parts of Europe, the same heat wave has sparked dozens of wildfires.

    In the U.S., parts of the Southwest and the Central Plains are bracing for temperatures that could reach 110 degrees this week. Already, the city of Tulsa has experienced more days above 100 degrees this summer than it historically has in an entire summer on average.

    Yet in the face of these mounting signs and costs of climate change, the U.S. federal government is choosing not to address the problem. Last week, President Biden’s package of policies to reduce climate-warning pollution collapsed, after Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia withdrew his support. Last month, the Supreme Court restricted the Environmental Protection Agency’s authority to reduce pollution at power plants.

    ************************

    Remember all those climate change deniers you used to hear about?


    Since I have been reading Wendell Berry I am less convinced that fixing the environment can be done by regulating fossil fuels and incentivising green energy as an alternative source of capital accumulation, and more convinced we need to radically reconfigure our relationship with the environment and consumerism.
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,932
    OnWis97 said:
    brianlux said:
    OnWis97 said:
    The title of this thread is too long. I suggest removing "hope filled."

    Better? 
    We have to leave some room for hope.  Otherwise we might as well all jump off a cliff.
    LOL. I wasn't actually seriously requesting a change to the title...just may way to say that the sky is falling.
    You have the power of persuasion! :smiley:
    static111 said:
    brianlux said:
    From a NY Times article this AM:

    Weather forecasters say that Britain this week may experience its highest temperature on record — more than 40 degrees Celsius, or about 105 degrees Fahrenheit. In response, officials in London have asked people to stay home, saying that vehicles may overheat and rail tracks may buckle.

    In France, Greece, Spain and other parts of Europe, the same heat wave has sparked dozens of wildfires.

    In the U.S., parts of the Southwest and the Central Plains are bracing for temperatures that could reach 110 degrees this week. Already, the city of Tulsa has experienced more days above 100 degrees this summer than it historically has in an entire summer on average.

    Yet in the face of these mounting signs and costs of climate change, the U.S. federal government is choosing not to address the problem. Last week, President Biden’s package of policies to reduce climate-warning pollution collapsed, after Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia withdrew his support. Last month, the Supreme Court restricted the Environmental Protection Agency’s authority to reduce pollution at power plants.

    ************************

    Remember all those climate change deniers you used to hear about?


    Since I have been reading Wendell Berry I am less convinced that fixing the environment can be done by regulating fossil fuels and incentivising green energy as an alternative source of capital accumulation, and more convinced we need to radically reconfigure our relationship with the environment and consumerism.

    OMG, well said.  If only more people would read Berry.  Good show!  Which of his books have you most most useful and enjoyed the most?

    I would say some of both would help, but I agree that simply converting to "green energy" is not enough.  Another writer, who before he lost his compass and dove into conspiracy theory laden politics, James Howard Kunstler, wrote in his book The Long Emergency very precisely why it is that green energy alone will not suffice. Another excellent writer along those lines is Richard Heinberg.  It's really unfortunate that these forward thinking writers (especially Berry) have not been listened too more widely. 
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • static111static111 Posts: 3,824
    brianlux said:
    OnWis97 said:
    brianlux said:
    OnWis97 said:
    The title of this thread is too long. I suggest removing "hope filled."

    Better? 
    We have to leave some room for hope.  Otherwise we might as well all jump off a cliff.
    LOL. I wasn't actually seriously requesting a change to the title...just may way to say that the sky is falling.
    You have the power of persuasion! :smiley:
    static111 said:
    brianlux said:
    From a NY Times article this AM:

    Weather forecasters say that Britain this week may experience its highest temperature on record — more than 40 degrees Celsius, or about 105 degrees Fahrenheit. In response, officials in London have asked people to stay home, saying that vehicles may overheat and rail tracks may buckle.

    In France, Greece, Spain and other parts of Europe, the same heat wave has sparked dozens of wildfires.

    In the U.S., parts of the Southwest and the Central Plains are bracing for temperatures that could reach 110 degrees this week. Already, the city of Tulsa has experienced more days above 100 degrees this summer than it historically has in an entire summer on average.

    Yet in the face of these mounting signs and costs of climate change, the U.S. federal government is choosing not to address the problem. Last week, President Biden’s package of policies to reduce climate-warning pollution collapsed, after Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia withdrew his support. Last month, the Supreme Court restricted the Environmental Protection Agency’s authority to reduce pollution at power plants.

    ************************

    Remember all those climate change deniers you used to hear about?


    Since I have been reading Wendell Berry I am less convinced that fixing the environment can be done by regulating fossil fuels and incentivising green energy as an alternative source of capital accumulation, and more convinced we need to radically reconfigure our relationship with the environment and consumerism.

    OMG, well said.  If only more people would read Berry.  Good show!  Which of his books have you most most useful and enjoyed the most?

    I would say some of both would help, but I agree that simply converting to "green energy" is not enough.  Another writer, who before he lost his compass and dove into conspiracy theory laden politics, James Howard Kunstler, wrote in his book The Long Emergency very precisely why it is that green energy alone will not suffice. Another excellent writer along those lines is Richard Heinberg.  It's really unfortunate that these forward thinking writers (especially Berry) have not been listened too more widely. 
    I've been reading a lot of essays available on line.  The only book I have so far is "In the Presence of Fear: Three Essays for a Changed World"  Three essays wrote right after 9/11.  One of which is The Idea of a Local Economy, which I chatted about in the book thread with you.  It turns out the full text of that essay is only available in that collection or the impossible to find winter 2001 issue of ORion magazine.  I bought a back issue of Harpers on ebay that only had a partial of the Essay. Anyways that essay has been pretty life changing for me.  Due to budget constraints I won't be buying anymore books until next month but I will very likely pick up one of the ones you suggested in the what are you reading thread.

    The main thing that hooked me in with regards to Berry is his ideas that we are connected to nature and our current disconnection and destruction of it in the name of buying more stuff and accumulating more capital for transnational corporations is actually hurting all of society.  It seems easy for some of us to remove ourselves from consumer culture than others.  I myself don't have a smart phone, but I use a computer at work and have a tablet for home use.  We buy used cars and largely shop at used clothing stores and used books and record stores even though we can afford not to.  Rarely buying new unless we can't find things available elsewhere, and never buy on Amazon.  Try not to drive too much and instill good economic ideas in our daughter.  Shop at the coop and farmers markets largely for our food.  So it was pretty easy for me to enter Wendell's world.  I find that what I have read so far has many paralells to Daniel Quinn's writings...I wonder if they ever corresponded?


    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,932
    static111 said:
    brianlux said:
    OnWis97 said:
    brianlux said:
    OnWis97 said:
    The title of this thread is too long. I suggest removing "hope filled."

    Better? 
    We have to leave some room for hope.  Otherwise we might as well all jump off a cliff.
    LOL. I wasn't actually seriously requesting a change to the title...just may way to say that the sky is falling.
    You have the power of persuasion! :smiley:
    static111 said:
    brianlux said:
    From a NY Times article this AM:

    Weather forecasters say that Britain this week may experience its highest temperature on record — more than 40 degrees Celsius, or about 105 degrees Fahrenheit. In response, officials in London have asked people to stay home, saying that vehicles may overheat and rail tracks may buckle.

    In France, Greece, Spain and other parts of Europe, the same heat wave has sparked dozens of wildfires.

    In the U.S., parts of the Southwest and the Central Plains are bracing for temperatures that could reach 110 degrees this week. Already, the city of Tulsa has experienced more days above 100 degrees this summer than it historically has in an entire summer on average.

    Yet in the face of these mounting signs and costs of climate change, the U.S. federal government is choosing not to address the problem. Last week, President Biden’s package of policies to reduce climate-warning pollution collapsed, after Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia withdrew his support. Last month, the Supreme Court restricted the Environmental Protection Agency’s authority to reduce pollution at power plants.

    ************************

    Remember all those climate change deniers you used to hear about?


    Since I have been reading Wendell Berry I am less convinced that fixing the environment can be done by regulating fossil fuels and incentivising green energy as an alternative source of capital accumulation, and more convinced we need to radically reconfigure our relationship with the environment and consumerism.

    OMG, well said.  If only more people would read Berry.  Good show!  Which of his books have you most most useful and enjoyed the most?

    I would say some of both would help, but I agree that simply converting to "green energy" is not enough.  Another writer, who before he lost his compass and dove into conspiracy theory laden politics, James Howard Kunstler, wrote in his book The Long Emergency very precisely why it is that green energy alone will not suffice. Another excellent writer along those lines is Richard Heinberg.  It's really unfortunate that these forward thinking writers (especially Berry) have not been listened too more widely. 
    I've been reading a lot of essays available on line.  The only book I have so far is "In the Presence of Fear: Three Essays for a Changed World"  Three essays wrote right after 9/11.  One of which is The Idea of a Local Economy, which I chatted about in the book thread with you.  It turns out the full text of that essay is only available in that collection or the impossible to find winter 2001 issue of ORion magazine.  I bought a back issue of Harpers on ebay that only had a partial of the Essay. Anyways that essay has been pretty life changing for me.  Due to budget constraints I won't be buying anymore books until next month but I will very likely pick up one of the ones you suggested in the what are you reading thread.

    The main thing that hooked me in with regards to Berry is his ideas that we are connected to nature and our current disconnection and destruction of it in the name of buying more stuff and accumulating more capital for transnational corporations is actually hurting all of society.  It seems easy for some of us to remove ourselves from consumer culture than others.  I myself don't have a smart phone, but I use a computer at work and have a tablet for home use.  We buy used cars and largely shop at used clothing stores and used books and record stores even though we can afford not to.  Rarely buying new unless we can't find things available elsewhere, and never buy on Amazon.  Try not to drive too much and instill good economic ideas in our daughter.  Shop at the coop and farmers markets largely for our food.  So it was pretty easy for me to enter Wendell's world.  I find that what I have read so far has many paralells to Daniel Quinn's writings...I wonder if they ever corresponded?



    It's encouraging to read your words here.  Much of what you say and so is very similar to our lives. 
    It's interesting what you said about consuming.  About the only thing I buy other than food and basic staples are used books and records (but I also sell both).  I have to say though, that my one great "sin" is buying new records now and then- not tons of them, but with certain artists, I have to admit to buying vinyl.  Other things, not so much.  Other than the socks I bought last winter and a C. F. Martin cap to keep some of the sun off my face, I can't think of many clothes I've purchased in at least a few years or more (a few Dinosaur Jr t-shirts about 3 or 4 years ago).  And other than undies, I can't remember my wife buying more than a few items of clothes in the 21 years I've known her (and believe me, she has plenty of clothes due to yard sales and thrift stores).  My car is 14 years old and I intend to keep it for several more years.
    I suppose we could be accused of sounding arrogant saying these thing but I'm sure neither of us intend that.  The difficult thing is to encourage others (and ourselves at times) to be more restrained in our consumption.  That difficult, in part, is because we frequently hear (even in so-called liberal media), that we need a "strong economy" driven by purchasing.  Buy, consume!  Wendell Berry addresses that issue in another excellent book of his (I don't remember if I mentioned this one, but it really is up there with his best) called Home Economics.  Much of the book talks about how to form reasonable scale of economy and the value of doing with less and making more of what we do have.  It also presents a wonderful entreaty for the value and essential nature of wilderness.  Here is one of the several fine quotes I noted that relates to what we've talked about:

    "...we do not know at what point to restrain or deny ourselves.  We do not know how ambitious to be, what or how much we safely desire, when or where to stop.  ...The lack of such knowledge is extremely dangerous in and to an individual.  But ignorance of when to stop is a modern epidemic; it is the basis of "industrial progress" and "economic growth"."
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • static111static111 Posts: 3,824
    brianlux said:
    static111 said:
    brianlux said:
    OnWis97 said:
    brianlux said:
    OnWis97 said:
    The title of this thread is too long. I suggest removing "hope filled."

    Better? 
    We have to leave some room for hope.  Otherwise we might as well all jump off a cliff.
    LOL. I wasn't actually seriously requesting a change to the title...just may way to say that the sky is falling.
    You have the power of persuasion! :smiley:
    static111 said:
    brianlux said:
    From a NY Times article this AM:

    Weather forecasters say that Britain this week may experience its highest temperature on record — more than 40 degrees Celsius, or about 105 degrees Fahrenheit. In response, officials in London have asked people to stay home, saying that vehicles may overheat and rail tracks may buckle.

    In France, Greece, Spain and other parts of Europe, the same heat wave has sparked dozens of wildfires.

    In the U.S., parts of the Southwest and the Central Plains are bracing for temperatures that could reach 110 degrees this week. Already, the city of Tulsa has experienced more days above 100 degrees this summer than it historically has in an entire summer on average.

    Yet in the face of these mounting signs and costs of climate change, the U.S. federal government is choosing not to address the problem. Last week, President Biden’s package of policies to reduce climate-warning pollution collapsed, after Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia withdrew his support. Last month, the Supreme Court restricted the Environmental Protection Agency’s authority to reduce pollution at power plants.

    ************************

    Remember all those climate change deniers you used to hear about?


    Since I have been reading Wendell Berry I am less convinced that fixing the environment can be done by regulating fossil fuels and incentivising green energy as an alternative source of capital accumulation, and more convinced we need to radically reconfigure our relationship with the environment and consumerism.

    OMG, well said.  If only more people would read Berry.  Good show!  Which of his books have you most most useful and enjoyed the most?

    I would say some of both would help, but I agree that simply converting to "green energy" is not enough.  Another writer, who before he lost his compass and dove into conspiracy theory laden politics, James Howard Kunstler, wrote in his book The Long Emergency very precisely why it is that green energy alone will not suffice. Another excellent writer along those lines is Richard Heinberg.  It's really unfortunate that these forward thinking writers (especially Berry) have not been listened too more widely. 
    I've been reading a lot of essays available on line.  The only book I have so far is "In the Presence of Fear: Three Essays for a Changed World"  Three essays wrote right after 9/11.  One of which is The Idea of a Local Economy, which I chatted about in the book thread with you.  It turns out the full text of that essay is only available in that collection or the impossible to find winter 2001 issue of ORion magazine.  I bought a back issue of Harpers on ebay that only had a partial of the Essay. Anyways that essay has been pretty life changing for me.  Due to budget constraints I won't be buying anymore books until next month but I will very likely pick up one of the ones you suggested in the what are you reading thread.

    The main thing that hooked me in with regards to Berry is his ideas that we are connected to nature and our current disconnection and destruction of it in the name of buying more stuff and accumulating more capital for transnational corporations is actually hurting all of society.  It seems easy for some of us to remove ourselves from consumer culture than others.  I myself don't have a smart phone, but I use a computer at work and have a tablet for home use.  We buy used cars and largely shop at used clothing stores and used books and record stores even though we can afford not to.  Rarely buying new unless we can't find things available elsewhere, and never buy on Amazon.  Try not to drive too much and instill good economic ideas in our daughter.  Shop at the coop and farmers markets largely for our food.  So it was pretty easy for me to enter Wendell's world.  I find that what I have read so far has many paralells to Daniel Quinn's writings...I wonder if they ever corresponded?



    It's encouraging to read your words here.  Much of what you say and so is very similar to our lives. 
    It's interesting what you said about consuming.  About the only thing I buy other than food and basic staples are used books and records (but I also sell both).  I have to say though, that my one great "sin" is buying new records now and then- not tons of them, but with certain artists, I have to admit to buying vinyl.  Other things, not so much.  Other than the socks I bought last winter and a C. F. Martin cap to keep some of the sun off my face, I can't think of many clothes I've purchased in at least a few years or more (a few Dinosaur Jr t-shirts about 3 or 4 years ago).  And other than undies, I can't remember my wife buying more than a few items of clothes in the 21 years I've known her (and believe me, she has plenty of clothes due to yard sales and thrift stores).  My car is 14 years old and I intend to keep it for several more years.
    I suppose we could be accused of sounding arrogant saying these thing but I'm sure neither of us intend that.  The difficult thing is to encourage others (and ourselves at times) to be more restrained in our consumption.  That difficult, in part, is because we frequently hear (even in so-called liberal media), that we need a "strong economy" driven by purchasing.  Buy, consume!  Wendell Berry addresses that issue in another excellent book of his (I don't remember if I mentioned this one, but it really is up there with his best) called Home Economics.  Much of the book talks about how to form reasonable scale of economy and the value of doing with less and making more of what we do have.  It also presents a wonderful entreaty for the value and essential nature of wilderness.  Here is one of the several fine quotes I noted that relates to what we've talked about:

    "...we do not know at what point to restrain or deny ourselves.  We do not know how ambitious to be, what or how much we safely desire, when or where to stop.  ...The lack of such knowledge is extremely dangerous in and to an individual.  But ignorance of when to stop is a modern epidemic; it is the basis of "industrial progress" and "economic growth"."
    I hear you on vinyl.  Books and vinyl are my main non essential consumer spending.  We certainly aren't homebodies and enjoy going to movie or concert now and then for sure.  I'm not arrogant about all this though, I have learned that everything can be taken away in an instant and it is better to spend below your means and try not to carry any debt.  Thanks for more Berry recommendations. I really look forward to following his books and hopefully putting some of it to use.  I agree it is hard to point out or try to get other people to stop endlessly consuming.  I am not one that buys the myth that a strong economy is one that is always in growth and usually only due to speculation and a casino type atmosphere that sees the fed constantly bailing out those deemed too big to fail, I would prefer an economy to be measured by production of necessary goods and the enrichment of citizens.Constant growth economy is probably our biggest enemy since it is what has fueled most of the systems of oppression in recent history and is the biggest cause of environmental destruction and pollution.  In fact I think if governments and societies placed more value in enriching the lives of citizens and preserving nature we would find that we could do without a lot of the mind numbing drug of consuming, and that would likely lead to more happiness and cooperation on a global scale. It would be nice to if we stopped every once in a while and asked do we really need our refrigerators to have internet compatibility just because they can, and also look at all the downstream costs of our consumption environmental and human.  Maybe the answer is just to vote harder and let narrowly defined specialist agencies work out each specific problem.  Or maybe we need to untangle a whole spaghetti bowl and radically reimagine what we can do and where we can go.  I guess I better stop philosophizing on the global warming sprinkled with hope thread.  Nice conversing with you Bri! Have a great day and do something nice for yourself.
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 4,970
    brianlux said:
    OnWis97 said:
    The title of this thread is too long. I suggest removing "hope filled."

    Better? 
    We have to leave some room for hope.  Otherwise we might as well all jump off a cliff.


    My cat Sprinkles is sitting besides me now, so we both thank you for the new, long title.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,932
    static111 said:
    brianlux said:
    static111 said:
    brianlux said:
    OnWis97 said:
    brianlux said:
    OnWis97 said:
    The title of this thread is too long. I suggest removing "hope filled."

    Better? 
    We have to leave some room for hope.  Otherwise we might as well all jump off a cliff.
    LOL. I wasn't actually seriously requesting a change to the title...just may way to say that the sky is falling.
    You have the power of persuasion! :smiley:
    static111 said:
    brianlux said:
    From a NY Times article this AM:

    Weather forecasters say that Britain this week may experience its highest temperature on record — more than 40 degrees Celsius, or about 105 degrees Fahrenheit. In response, officials in London have asked people to stay home, saying that vehicles may overheat and rail tracks may buckle.

    In France, Greece, Spain and other parts of Europe, the same heat wave has sparked dozens of wildfires.

    In the U.S., parts of the Southwest and the Central Plains are bracing for temperatures that could reach 110 degrees this week. Already, the city of Tulsa has experienced more days above 100 degrees this summer than it historically has in an entire summer on average.

    Yet in the face of these mounting signs and costs of climate change, the U.S. federal government is choosing not to address the problem. Last week, President Biden’s package of policies to reduce climate-warning pollution collapsed, after Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia withdrew his support. Last month, the Supreme Court restricted the Environmental Protection Agency’s authority to reduce pollution at power plants.

    ************************

    Remember all those climate change deniers you used to hear about?


    Since I have been reading Wendell Berry I am less convinced that fixing the environment can be done by regulating fossil fuels and incentivising green energy as an alternative source of capital accumulation, and more convinced we need to radically reconfigure our relationship with the environment and consumerism.

    OMG, well said.  If only more people would read Berry.  Good show!  Which of his books have you most most useful and enjoyed the most?

    I would say some of both would help, but I agree that simply converting to "green energy" is not enough.  Another writer, who before he lost his compass and dove into conspiracy theory laden politics, James Howard Kunstler, wrote in his book The Long Emergency very precisely why it is that green energy alone will not suffice. Another excellent writer along those lines is Richard Heinberg.  It's really unfortunate that these forward thinking writers (especially Berry) have not been listened too more widely. 
    I've been reading a lot of essays available on line.  The only book I have so far is "In the Presence of Fear: Three Essays for a Changed World"  Three essays wrote right after 9/11.  One of which is The Idea of a Local Economy, which I chatted about in the book thread with you.  It turns out the full text of that essay is only available in that collection or the impossible to find winter 2001 issue of ORion magazine.  I bought a back issue of Harpers on ebay that only had a partial of the Essay. Anyways that essay has been pretty life changing for me.  Due to budget constraints I won't be buying anymore books until next month but I will very likely pick up one of the ones you suggested in the what are you reading thread.

    The main thing that hooked me in with regards to Berry is his ideas that we are connected to nature and our current disconnection and destruction of it in the name of buying more stuff and accumulating more capital for transnational corporations is actually hurting all of society.  It seems easy for some of us to remove ourselves from consumer culture than others.  I myself don't have a smart phone, but I use a computer at work and have a tablet for home use.  We buy used cars and largely shop at used clothing stores and used books and record stores even though we can afford not to.  Rarely buying new unless we can't find things available elsewhere, and never buy on Amazon.  Try not to drive too much and instill good economic ideas in our daughter.  Shop at the coop and farmers markets largely for our food.  So it was pretty easy for me to enter Wendell's world.  I find that what I have read so far has many paralells to Daniel Quinn's writings...I wonder if they ever corresponded?



    It's encouraging to read your words here.  Much of what you say and so is very similar to our lives. 
    It's interesting what you said about consuming.  About the only thing I buy other than food and basic staples are used books and records (but I also sell both).  I have to say though, that my one great "sin" is buying new records now and then- not tons of them, but with certain artists, I have to admit to buying vinyl.  Other things, not so much.  Other than the socks I bought last winter and a C. F. Martin cap to keep some of the sun off my face, I can't think of many clothes I've purchased in at least a few years or more (a few Dinosaur Jr t-shirts about 3 or 4 years ago).  And other than undies, I can't remember my wife buying more than a few items of clothes in the 21 years I've known her (and believe me, she has plenty of clothes due to yard sales and thrift stores).  My car is 14 years old and I intend to keep it for several more years.
    I suppose we could be accused of sounding arrogant saying these thing but I'm sure neither of us intend that.  The difficult thing is to encourage others (and ourselves at times) to be more restrained in our consumption.  That difficult, in part, is because we frequently hear (even in so-called liberal media), that we need a "strong economy" driven by purchasing.  Buy, consume!  Wendell Berry addresses that issue in another excellent book of his (I don't remember if I mentioned this one, but it really is up there with his best) called Home Economics.  Much of the book talks about how to form reasonable scale of economy and the value of doing with less and making more of what we do have.  It also presents a wonderful entreaty for the value and essential nature of wilderness.  Here is one of the several fine quotes I noted that relates to what we've talked about:

    "...we do not know at what point to restrain or deny ourselves.  We do not know how ambitious to be, what or how much we safely desire, when or where to stop.  ...The lack of such knowledge is extremely dangerous in and to an individual.  But ignorance of when to stop is a modern epidemic; it is the basis of "industrial progress" and "economic growth"."
    I hear you on vinyl.  Books and vinyl are my main non essential consumer spending.  We certainly aren't homebodies and enjoy going to movie or concert now and then for sure.  I'm not arrogant about all this though, I have learned that everything can be taken away in an instant and it is better to spend below your means and try not to carry any debt.  Thanks for more Berry recommendations. I really look forward to following his books and hopefully putting some of it to use.  I agree it is hard to point out or try to get other people to stop endlessly consuming.  I am not one that buys the myth that a strong economy is one that is always in growth and usually only due to speculation and a casino type atmosphere that sees the fed constantly bailing out those deemed too big to fail, I would prefer an economy to be measured by production of necessary goods and the enrichment of citizens.Constant growth economy is probably our biggest enemy since it is what has fueled most of the systems of oppression in recent history and is the biggest cause of environmental destruction and pollution.  In fact I think if governments and societies placed more value in enriching the lives of citizens and preserving nature we would find that we could do without a lot of the mind numbing drug of consuming, and that would likely lead to more happiness and cooperation on a global scale. It would be nice to if we stopped every once in a while and asked do we really need our refrigerators to have internet compatibility just because they can, and also look at all the downstream costs of our consumption environmental and human.  Maybe the answer is just to vote harder and let narrowly defined specialist agencies work out each specific problem.  Or maybe we need to untangle a whole spaghetti bowl and radically reimagine what we can do and where we can go.  I guess I better stop philosophizing on the global warming sprinkled with hope thread.  Nice conversing with you Bri! Have a great day and do something nice for yourself.
    More wise words, thank you!
    And yes, nice conversing with you also Stat!
    brianlux said:
    OnWis97 said:
    The title of this thread is too long. I suggest removing "hope filled."

    Better? 
    We have to leave some room for hope.  Otherwise we might as well all jump off a cliff.


    My cat Sprinkles is sitting besides me now, so we both thank you for the new, long title.

    Haha!  I'll tell have to ask our Annie cat for her take on it.  :lol:
    P.S. Hello Sprinkles!
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • ZodZod Posts: 8,719
    meanwhile here on Vancouver Island, we're experiencing once of the coldest spring/summers on record, following one of the hottest summers on record.

    Not sure what I'm missing more. The heatdome summer which aside from the 1 to 2 weeks of heat dome, was sunny and warm for months and months, or this year where summers just getting started at the end of July, and we'll probably get 3 weeks of summer.. lol.

    Also hard to believe we're good for water up here, but 1000 km's to south it's megadrought.
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 33,172
    Zod said:
    meanwhile here on Vancouver Island, we're experiencing once of the coldest spring/summers on record, following one of the hottest summers on record.

    Not sure what I'm missing more. The heatdome summer which aside from the 1 to 2 weeks of heat dome, was sunny and warm for months and months, or this year where summers just getting started at the end of July, and we'll probably get 3 weeks of summer.. lol.

    Also hard to believe we're good for water up here, but 1000 km's to south it's megadrought.
    I went fishing at Tetu Lake some 10 years ago and the water level was down 20' lower than usual.  Not sure what it looks like now?
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 33,172
    So something positive for our oceans.  We have had numerous shark sightings here on the south shore.  That means that bait fish are in abundance, which they are and that the shark population is making a comeback.

    We have had whales and Tuna just off the beaches.

    it's pretty neat to see.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,932
    So something positive for our oceans.  We have had numerous shark sightings here on the south shore.  That means that bait fish are in abundance, which they are and that the shark population is making a comeback.

    We have had whales and Tuna just off the beaches.

    it's pretty neat to see.

    Sounds like good news.  (We're always up for some good news!)
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 33,172
    brianlux said:
    So something positive for our oceans.  We have had numerous shark sightings here on the south shore.  That means that bait fish are in abundance, which they are and that the shark population is making a comeback.

    We have had whales and Tuna just off the beaches.

    it's pretty neat to see.

    Sounds like good news.  (We're always up for some good news!)
    That's the "hope" part Brian!
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,932
    brianlux said:
    So something positive for our oceans.  We have had numerous shark sightings here on the south shore.  That means that bait fish are in abundance, which they are and that the shark population is making a comeback.

    We have had whales and Tuna just off the beaches.

    it's pretty neat to see.

    Sounds like good news.  (We're always up for some good news!)
    That's the "hope" part Brian!

    Thank goodness hope is not dead!
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 33,172
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    So something positive for our oceans.  We have had numerous shark sightings here on the south shore.  That means that bait fish are in abundance, which they are and that the shark population is making a comeback.

    We have had whales and Tuna just off the beaches.

    it's pretty neat to see.

    Sounds like good news.  (We're always up for some good news!)
    That's the "hope" part Brian!

    Thank goodness hope is not dead!
    Hope is alive and well, I hung out w her over the weekend.  She was giving shit to Despair.  She says "hi" BTW. :)
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,932
    edited July 19
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    So something positive for our oceans.  We have had numerous shark sightings here on the south shore.  That means that bait fish are in abundance, which they are and that the shark population is making a comeback.

    We have had whales and Tuna just off the beaches.

    it's pretty neat to see.

    Sounds like good news.  (We're always up for some good news!)
    That's the "hope" part Brian!

    Thank goodness hope is not dead!
    Hope is alive and well, I hung out w her over the weekend.  She was giving shit to Despair.  She says "hi" BTW. :)

    Tell here "hi" back.  And her friend Charity as well.  :lol:
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 4,970
    France is on fire. England is on fire, hottest day since records began. Texas is on fire. Apparently Cali is taking a brief rest from the fires?

    As the planet burns, how to independents justify voting for any Republican at any level of government? Maybe I’ll get a both sides are the same debate?
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,932
    France is on fire. England is on fire, hottest day since records began. Texas is on fire. Apparently Cali is taking a brief rest from the fires?

    As the planet burns, how to independents justify voting for any Republican at any level of government? Maybe I’ll get a both sides are the same debate?

    So far this fire season, the largest fires California has had/ are going is the Electra fire at 4478 acres and 99% contained, and the Washburn Fire outside Yosemite currently at 4911 acres and 50% contained.  That latter one is a concern due to its proximity to a grove of giant sequoia redwoods.   Nevertheless, overall, a relatively quiet fires season so far.  
    But the thing is, the worst of our fire season does not start until August and it can extend into November or even December.  As always,  we're hoping for good luck and less fire.  I'm afraid it's too early for us to get overly optimistic.  Maybe we'll be lucky (sprinkle of hope).

    But what you mentioned above points out the bigger concern in the bigger picture: global weather the issues resulting from climate change.  I can only see a few reasons why Republicans in general are so cavalier all this.  First of all, in their narrow interpretation of Christianity, they believe it's all Gods will any way so WTF, why worry.  And, of course, they believe Jesus is going to whisk them off to heaven before things really get dicey (good luck with that.)
    Another reason is because they are so focused on their disbelief in democracy and their hatred of anyone who is not on their "team", that the earth can burn and go to hell before they admit they are barking up the wrong burning tree.
    My other theory- far fetched though it may be- is that the human species has subconscious suicidal tendencies that stem from guilt, fear, hatred of self, hatred of nature, and a need to control or die.  Looks to me like we're going down either way.
    But you never know (another sprinkle of hope, LOL).
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 31,642
    France is on fire. England is on fire, hottest day since records began. Texas is on fire. Apparently Cali is taking a brief rest from the fires?

    As the planet burns, how to independents justify voting for any Republican at any level of government? Maybe I’ll get a both sides are the same debate?
    Well, Manchurian Joe is a “dem.” So yea, both sides.
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  • static111static111 Posts: 3,824
    France is on fire. England is on fire, hottest day since records began. Texas is on fire. Apparently Cali is taking a brief rest from the fires?

    As the planet burns, how to independents justify voting for any Republican at any level of government? Maybe I’ll get a both sides are the same debate?
    It doesn't matter what party is in power 

    Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.

    That means starting at home reducing your fuel consumption, separating your compost and recyclables from your garbage, buying local, shopping at coops or farmers markets, unplugging your appliances when not in use, setting the AC higher, buying used, not buying every damn piece of plastic that PJ puts up for sale with a Psst.  Mutual Aid, helping your neighbors, planting trees the whole nine yards.  Sure individual citizens shouldn't have to do so much but corporations aren't going to do anything even if we get lucky and have 10 years of democrat rule, because there are always loopholes to exploit.  Even if we had a democrat supermajority, the greening would only last until it started cutting into the bottom line of capital.   Yes Dems are better than Rs as far as parties go, but lets not try to paint this as some simple black and white issue wherein everything is saved due to Democrats and Independents holding hands.   We all need to do our part and that doesn't just mean voting and hoping that specialized agencies will take care of all of our problems.
    Scio me nihil scire

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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,932
    static111 said:
    France is on fire. England is on fire, hottest day since records began. Texas is on fire. Apparently Cali is taking a brief rest from the fires?

    As the planet burns, how to independents justify voting for any Republican at any level of government? Maybe I’ll get a both sides are the same debate?
    It doesn't matter what party is in power 

    Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.

    That means starting at home reducing your fuel consumption, separating your compost and recyclables from your garbage, buying local, shopping at coops or farmers markets, unplugging your appliances when not in use, setting the AC higher, buying used, not buying every damn piece of plastic that PJ puts up for sale with a Psst.  Mutual Aid, helping your neighbors, planting trees the whole nine yards.  Sure individual citizens shouldn't have to do so much but corporations aren't going to do anything even if we get lucky and have 10 years of democrat rule, because there are always loopholes to exploit.  Even if we had a democrat supermajority, the greening would only last until it started cutting into the bottom line of capital.   Yes Dems are better than Rs as far as parties go, but lets not try to paint this as some simple black and white issue wherein everything is saved due to Democrats and Independents holding hands.   We all need to do our part and that doesn't just mean voting and hoping that specialized agencies will take care of all of our problems.

    Nailed it on all points.
    I agree, neither party alone is going to make enough of a difference.  Dems more so, yes, but not enough.  The only party that might make a difference would be a strong Green Party, but the U.S. has a very weak Green Party that does not attract strong candidates and siphons off some Dem votes (guilty as charge, but I'm in California, which almost always votes Dem- at least for POTUS- so any Green Party votes I made are a moot point). 
    So it boils down to the notion that the environmental crises we face today are probably not going to improve fast enough through weak legislation.  Until strong green candidates get elected, progress will be too slow- as it has for decades under both parties. 
    Like you say, more of us as individuals need to get wise and do our part (including voting for candidates who might make a difference of course).  It's the only thing that makes sense anymore. 
    Also, a great point you made about watching where our dollars go, like what you mentioned about shopping at farmer's market (and food co-ops), instead of big chain supermarkets that get most of their products from afar. 

    I would also encourage more of us to join and support organizations that are actually doing something and not just talking about it like politicians (sometimes) do.  It feels great to see these kinds of groups take strong action.  For example (to name a few):
    Sea Shepherd Conservation Society:  They actively intervene in illegal fishing operations that kill whales other other endangered sea life.
    Wildlands Network: An organization dedicated to creating wild lands corridors for species migration.  Those efforts slow or species extinction.
    Natural Resources Defense Council:  They do great work taking to court the fight against big corp. polluters. An amazing outfit.
    And local organizations like our American River Conservancy, an outfit that has saved much green space along the American River here in California.
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 4,970
    “ 2010 watch it go to fire”


    interesting you brought up religion Bri, because that’s what the prophet said, to do the evolution 
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,932
    “ 2010 watch it go to fire”


    interesting you brought up religion Bri, because that’s what the prophet said, to do the evolution 

    Wise words from Saint Eddie!
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