The all-purpose heavy duty Global Warming/ Climate Change thread sprinkled with hope.

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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,977
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    static111 said:
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    Since NY Times is a paywall, rather than copy and paste an article from them (not an honest action and I have been guilty of that), I will simply and very briefly summarize an article I read in the Times this evening (3/29/22) and post this in the Ukraine thread as well:

    The gist of the article proposes the idea that if we discontinued our addiction to oil (and, adding my own thought, most of our excess driving), we could prevent wars like the one in the Ukraine and reverse global warming.  The U.S. and NATO funds Russia and it's military by buying their oil.  We are heating the planet by burning too much oil.

    That, in a nutshell, is it.
    This needs to be considered.

    6% of our oil comes from Russia.

    I agree that we need to get off the oil teet.

    True, we don't get a lot of oil fro Russia but that's why I mentioned NATO as well. 
    brianlux said:
    Since NY Times is a paywall, rather than copy and paste an article from them (not an honest action and I have been guilty of that), I will simply and very briefly summarize an article I read in the Times this evening (3/29/22) and post this in the Ukraine thread as well:

    The gist of the article proposes the idea that if we discontinued our addiction to oil (and, adding my own thought, most of our excess driving), we could prevent wars like the one in the Ukraine and reverse global warming.  The U.S. and NATO funds Russia and it's military by buying their oil.  We are heating the planet by burning too much oil.

    That, in a nutshell, is it.
    This needs to be considered.

    6% of our oil comes from Russia.

    I agree that we need to get off the oil teet.


    Electric vehicles can be almost as bad regarding both geopolitical headaches and toxic waste. The tech is emerging, but still is a long ways away from being a safe alternative. With its 60-70% improvement in carbon footprint, brings a cost,


    https://www.newsecuritybeat.org/2019/07/redefining-geopolitics-age-electric-vehicles/

    Third, on access to resources. Without major technology breakthroughs, EVs will lead to increased demand for cobalt, nickel, lithium, and other strategic minerals. It is possible that access to these elements will be used, as oil has been, for energy “statecraft.” If U.S. control of oil supply choke points has long been recognized as a vulnerability for oil importers including China, China has in turn identified the growing demand for minerals needed for clean energy technology as a geostrategic opportunity. Some of the largest reserves of raw materials required for lithium ion battery production are found in fragile states with poor governance records, like the Democratic Republic of the Congohome to most of the world’s cobalt. Without a coordinated effort to build capacity in these countries, the risk of instability and conflict will rise.

    ..

    Finally, EVs will have ripple effects with complex geopolitical and possibly even human security implications that are difficult to predict. The adoption of electric cars could wipe out US$19 trillion in revenue from the oil industry by 2040. That is a risk not just for oil producing states but for institutional investors globally, including pension funds, which means it also poses a financial risk for consumers.

    ..

    But electric cars have their own dirty little secret: Every electric vehicle, and most hybrid vehicles, rely on large lithium-ion batteries weighing hundreds of pounds. One of the largest, the battery for the Mercedes-Benz EQC, comes in at 1,400 pounds. Typically made with cobalt, nickel, and manganese, among other components, these batteries cost thousands of dollars and come with an environmental burden: They require ingredients sourced from polluting mines and smelters around the world, and they can ultimately contaminate soil and water supplies if improperly disposed.


    "Electric vehicles can be almost as bad regarding both geopolitical headaches and toxic waste."
    Yes, which is why I said we also need to end our driving addiction.  There currently is no technology that allows as many people on earth who drive as much as we do that will end degradation to the environment.  And id some of us are privileged to drive, why should not all 8 billion of us be able to drive?  And if all 8 billion of us did drive, we would see a collapse in environment even fast. 
    The simple truth is this:  We need to end our addiction to oil and we need to end our addiction to driving. 

    High Speed Rails for the Future!!!!

    I wish! 
    The problem with that, at least here in the U.S., is that the cost of high speed rail being built across a country this large is prohibitive.  What would make much better sense at this point in history would be to revitalize current rail systems, refurbish existing lines that are not being used, and increase inter-urban rail and light rail systems in large metropolitan areas. 
    I don't mean to sound like an expert or know-it-all, but I've been reading up on this a lot for several years both through RailPac and Rail Passenger Association (previously NARP), and revitalization and expansion of current rail technologies is the most logical and doable choice.
    I think the expansion and increased usage of light rail and commuter trains for metropolitan areas would go a long way towards helping. When I lived in the Bay Area, BART only serviced part of the region, it has been expanded greatly and needs to be expanded even more. The light rail in San Jose was just being implemented when I left and now it encompasses a large part of the South Bay and peninsula. I live in a rural area now, so mass transit isn't an option, but I do carpool with a coworker. Incentive programs for more people to consider that option might be an idea for further thought.   

    A similar story for me as well, Je.  I grew up in the Bay Area and watch public transit grow well with the growth of the area. 
    Even here in the Sierra foothills public transportation (buses and vans) has grown some but could be better.  And as much as I love using our walking trail (El Dorado Trail), I would rather it was still a railroad like it was up until 1989 (7 years before I moved here).  All we have left up here now is this little set up that families can ride on the one short remaining stretch of standard track that has not been pulled up.  Fun, but not a commuter train.
    Best Trails in Diamond Springs  AllTrails

    Fun Fact!  That El Dorado Trail can still be used for trains.  All they have to do is apply.  There was a law passed that all railways would be left just in case, and be used for parks or what not for now.  So they can be transformed back into working railways again if they would need.

    I learned this from the Highline here in NY.

    Sadly, for better or worse (it is nice to walk on) this is what most of the former rail lines up here look like now:
    El Dorado Trail  California Trails  TrailLink
    Mary West Exploring the El Dorado Trail  TheUnioncom




    If they applied for it, the rails should be underneath that asphalt.  That's a nice hike Brian.

    The sections I've seen in my years here have had the rails removed and the are a few places with rails and ties off to the side, so I'm guessing they have all been removed.  And here in brodozer country, the will to reduce global warming is weak.  Why am I here?!
    But yes, it is a nice walk.  I prefer regular earthen trails and we try to get out once in a while to go to the American River Conservancy trail which are a bit further away but not too far.   Of course, that means driving and we try to keep our mileage down, so that doesn't happen as often as I would like.  There is land enough for more parks around here but developers are eating that open space up like there's no tomorrow.  Which takes us full circle.  Ugh!  So hard to remain optimistic!
    California has a bunch of land so places build out , not up.

    Yes true, but what we don't have is enough water.  Folsom recently added 30,000 new homes with another (I believe) 30,000 to some.  A few miles down the road from us in the Diamond Spring and town of El Dorado, 4 large condensed housing projects are being planned.  WE just don't have enough water to supply all of these new homes, especially considering how much food California produces.  Land is being converted to more roads, buildings, and houses, so more land and water is taken from agriculture- not to mention something most of us value- the beauty and importance of nature.  If we continue to convert more and more open space to suit or growth, we are hurting both nature and (of course) ourselves in the long run.  Cities like NY do it right, build up, not out.  California is blowing it.  This state is doomed.
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 32,721
    we're about to get hit with the "worst blizzard in decades". 30-80 cm of snow. climate change? not sure. but I think this is the best thread for it. 
    I think I'll move to Australia


  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,977
    we're about to get hit with the "worst blizzard in decades". 30-80 cm of snow. climate change? not sure. but I think this is the best thread for it. 

    Even though (as we all know now) that local weather is not in itself a reflection of global climate, weather extremes- hot or cold, wet or dry- are very much indicators of global warming and climate change.

    Stay safe and warm and keep us posted!
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • ZodZod Posts: 8,729
    It snowed here this morning.  Very rare for Vancouver Island. Haven't seen April snow in what feels like 25 years.

  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 5,002
    70 with strong sun here on long guy land. It’s been too long.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 32,721
    long guy land? haha
    I think I'll move to Australia


  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 5,002
    That’s how the locals say it
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 32,721
    That’s how the locals say it
    I remember seeing a tv show or movie where a local said it like that, accentuating GUY in longGUYland. I thought it was an over exaggeration of the local accent. 
    I think I'll move to Australia


  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 31,679
    But let's cut funding to major research institutions and instead, forgo alternatives and just keep relying on carbon based fuel, particularly digging coal.

    I can't recall if POOTWH ever expressed an interest in or visited an institution of higher education? You know, to see what the future could look like?

    A new heat engine with no moving parts is as efficient as a steam turbine

    The design could someday enable a fully decarbonized power grid, researchers say.

    Engineers at MIT and the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) have designed a heat engine with no moving parts. Their new demonstrations show that it converts heat to electricity with over 40 percent efficiency — a performance better than that of traditional steam turbines.

    The heat engine is a thermophotovoltaic (TPV) cell, similar to a solar panel’s photovoltaic cells, that passively captures high-energy photons from a white-hot heat source and converts them into electricity. The team’s design can generate electricity from a heat source of between 1,900 to 2,400 degrees Celsius, or up to about 4,300 degrees Fahrenheit.

    The researchers plan to incorporate the TPV cell into a grid-scale thermal battery. The system would absorb excess energy from renewable sources such as the sun and store that energy in heavily insulated banks of hot graphite. When the energy is needed, such as on overcast days, TPV cells would convert the heat into electricity, and dispatch the energy to a power grid.

    The cell in the experiments is about a square centimeter. For a grid-scale thermal battery system, Henry envisions the TPV cells would have to scale up to about 10,000 square feet (about a quarter of a football field), and would operate in climate-controlled warehouses to draw power from huge banks of stored solar energy. He points out that an infrastructure exists for making large-scale photovoltaic cells, which could also be adapted to manufacture TPVs.

    “There’s definitely a huge net positive here in terms of sustainability,” Henry says. “The technology is safe, environmentally benign in its life cycle, and can have a tremendous impact on abating carbon dioxide emissions from electricity production.”

    This research was supported, in part, by the U.S. Department of Energy.

    https://news.mit.edu/2022/thermal-heat-engine-0413

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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,977
    Please, killing yourself will not galvanize enough people to stop global warming.  Don't do this.  There has to be a better way.

    It was a stunning, grisly act. A man, a climate activist and Buddhist, had set himself on fire on the steps of the US supreme court. He sat upright and didn’t immediately scream despite the agony. Police officers desperately plunged nearby orange traffic cones into the court’s marbled fountain and hurled water at him. It wasn’t enough to save him.

    Four years ago nearly to the exact date, David Buckel, a civil rights lawyer, walked to New York City’s Prospect Park early one morning, doused himself with gasoline and set himself alight. Unlike Bruce, Buckel, who was 60, left a two-page note emailed to media outlets minutes before his death stating that “my early death by fossil fuel reflects what we are doing to ourselves.”

    “We have no leaders on this issue, none, no one,” Kaelber said. “So I get the despair people have but the answer isn’t to do what they did. They could’ve had more impact joining with people who are driving for change. Imagine if Wynn had chained himself and 100 Buddhists to the gates of the supreme court instead.

    “They think doing this will galvanize people, and maybe it will a few people, but my first thought with Wynn was that no one on the supreme court will care. It will just be this passing thing in the media. It’s tragic.”





    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 33,347
    brianlux said:
    Please, killing yourself will not galvanize enough people to stop global warming.  Don't do this.  There has to be a better way.

    It was a stunning, grisly act. A man, a climate activist and Buddhist, had set himself on fire on the steps of the US supreme court. He sat upright and didn’t immediately scream despite the agony. Police officers desperately plunged nearby orange traffic cones into the court’s marbled fountain and hurled water at him. It wasn’t enough to save him.

    Four years ago nearly to the exact date, David Buckel, a civil rights lawyer, walked to New York City’s Prospect Park early one morning, doused himself with gasoline and set himself alight. Unlike Bruce, Buckel, who was 60, left a two-page note emailed to media outlets minutes before his death stating that “my early death by fossil fuel reflects what we are doing to ourselves.”

    “We have no leaders on this issue, none, no one,” Kaelber said. “So I get the despair people have but the answer isn’t to do what they did. They could’ve had more impact joining with people who are driving for change. Imagine if Wynn had chained himself and 100 Buddhists to the gates of the supreme court instead.

    “They think doing this will galvanize people, and maybe it will a few people, but my first thought with Wynn was that no one on the supreme court will care. It will just be this passing thing in the media. It’s tragic.”





    It did have an effect on the Vietnam War but nowadays I agree w you.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,977
    brianlux said:
    Please, killing yourself will not galvanize enough people to stop global warming.  Don't do this.  There has to be a better way.

    It was a stunning, grisly act. A man, a climate activist and Buddhist, had set himself on fire on the steps of the US supreme court. He sat upright and didn’t immediately scream despite the agony. Police officers desperately plunged nearby orange traffic cones into the court’s marbled fountain and hurled water at him. It wasn’t enough to save him.

    Four years ago nearly to the exact date, David Buckel, a civil rights lawyer, walked to New York City’s Prospect Park early one morning, doused himself with gasoline and set himself alight. Unlike Bruce, Buckel, who was 60, left a two-page note emailed to media outlets minutes before his death stating that “my early death by fossil fuel reflects what we are doing to ourselves.”

    “We have no leaders on this issue, none, no one,” Kaelber said. “So I get the despair people have but the answer isn’t to do what they did. They could’ve had more impact joining with people who are driving for change. Imagine if Wynn had chained himself and 100 Buddhists to the gates of the supreme court instead.

    “They think doing this will galvanize people, and maybe it will a few people, but my first thought with Wynn was that no one on the supreme court will care. It will just be this passing thing in the media. It’s tragic.”





    It did have an effect on the Vietnam War but nowadays I agree w you.

    I remember that well and it had huge effect and was widely heard and read about.  I'm not sure why these self immolation protests over global warming/ environment have not been as widely reported.  Protests in general have become such a regular thing that I'm not sure how much difference they make.  Maybe we just don't want badly enough to change.  Maybe we have just capitulated to our fate.
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 33,347
    I saw an unruly sight this morning.  A pickup truck full of horsehoe crabs.  These have always meant to me as a warning sign.  If these are plentiful then the ocean is alright.  I had never seen this before.  The guy has a license to harvest them.

    Who knew.
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 26,181
     

    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,977
    mickeyrat said:
     


    I hope he's right.  Coal needs to go bye!
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 32,721
    beautiful clean coal? why bri? /s
    I think I'll move to Australia


  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,977
    beautiful clean coal? why bri? /s

    Ahhh, beautiful clean coal.  Dontcha just wish you could eat it for breakfast!  Coal pancakes!  Coal waffles!  Coal eggs Benedict!
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 33,347
    mickeyrat said:
     

    I hope the coal states have a contingency plan or there will be a whole lot of people unemployed.
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 26,181
    edited June 7
    mickeyrat said:
     

    I hope the coal states have a contingency plan or there will be a whole lot of people unemployed.
    they didnt for the losses stemming from mountain top removal processes that dodnt require the same number of miners


    2010 to 2020 mining jobs in the u.s.

    Post edited by mickeyrat on
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 33,347
    mickeyrat said:
    mickeyrat said:
     

    I hope the coal states have a contingency plan or there will be a whole lot of people unemployed.
    they didnt for the losses stemming from mountain top removal processes that dodnt require the same number of miners


    2010 to 2020 mining jobs in the u.s.

    Mining coal from the topside or underground is still a job though and they have been in a sharp decline looking at those charts.

    If you go out to those mining areas there isn't a whole lot going on usually and the other areas that stopped mining are just dead towns with no life.

    Put up some wind turbines in those areas for a shot of life?

    I understand for the need to stop burning coal.  It's just the areas that they effect are bad off as it is.  I think of the old steel areas too.  Most of those towns never recovered.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,977
    mickeyrat said:
    mickeyrat said:
     

    I hope the coal states have a contingency plan or there will be a whole lot of people unemployed.
    they didnt for the losses stemming from mountain top removal processes that dodnt require the same number of miners


    2010 to 2020 mining jobs in the u.s.

    Mining coal from the topside or underground is still a job though and they have been in a sharp decline looking at those charts.

    If you go out to those mining areas there isn't a whole lot going on usually and the other areas that stopped mining are just dead towns with no life.

    Put up some wind turbines in those areas for a shot of life?

    I understand for the need to stop burning coal.  It's just the areas that they effect are bad off as it is.  I think of the old steel areas too.  Most of those towns never recovered.

    I agree that cities that go into poverty because of outsourcing or, in the case of coal, discontinuation, need some kind of help with a recovery plan.  I remember passing through downtown Akron, Ohio after the tire industry had moved out.  The place was like a ghost town.  It was strange and sad. 
    The difference, of course, is that Akron and steel towns like Bethlehem PA, etc. suffered due to corporate greed moving the industry and manufacturing to other countries where they could get cheap slave labor.   Coal towns, on the other hand, may die because their industry needs to.  What they need is a transition plan.   I think that could happen if there is a will to make it happen.
    There are a number of towns and small cities in California that died when gold mining dried up. Places like Coloma became something close to being ghost towns but eventually recovered through things like tourism and wine country.  But that had at least as much to do with luck and local than planning.  Hopefully coal town will receive help through good planning.

    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 33,347
    brianlux said:
    mickeyrat said:
    mickeyrat said:
     

    I hope the coal states have a contingency plan or there will be a whole lot of people unemployed.
    they didnt for the losses stemming from mountain top removal processes that dodnt require the same number of miners


    2010 to 2020 mining jobs in the u.s.

    Mining coal from the topside or underground is still a job though and they have been in a sharp decline looking at those charts.

    If you go out to those mining areas there isn't a whole lot going on usually and the other areas that stopped mining are just dead towns with no life.

    Put up some wind turbines in those areas for a shot of life?

    I understand for the need to stop burning coal.  It's just the areas that they effect are bad off as it is.  I think of the old steel areas too.  Most of those towns never recovered.

    I agree that cities that go into poverty because of outsourcing or, in the case of coal, discontinuation, need some kind of help with a recovery plan.  I remember passing through downtown Akron, Ohio after the tire industry had moved out.  The place was like a ghost town.  It was strange and sad. 
    The difference, of course, is that Akron and steel towns like Bethlehem PA, etc. suffered due to corporate greed moving the industry and manufacturing to other countries where they could get cheap slave labor.   Coal towns, on the other hand, may die because their industry needs to.  What they need is a transition plan.   I think that could happen if there is a will to make it happen.
    There are a number of towns and small cities in California that died when gold mining dried up. Places like Coloma became something close to being ghost towns but eventually recovered through things like tourism and wine country.  But that had at least as much to do with luck and local than planning.  Hopefully coal town will receive help through good planning.

    Ahh yes, Gold mining towns.  We used to seek them out and traverse through the old mines and scavenge.  The more barren the better.  A lot of those towns still haven't recovered sans some tourism?  Virginia City, Jerome, Tombstone and Bisbee are the only ones I can think of that still function where a place like Randsburg and Goler will never see a renaissance.
  • static111static111 Posts: 3,837
    brianlux said:
    mickeyrat said:
    mickeyrat said:
     

    I hope the coal states have a contingency plan or there will be a whole lot of people unemployed.
    they didnt for the losses stemming from mountain top removal processes that dodnt require the same number of miners


    2010 to 2020 mining jobs in the u.s.

    Mining coal from the topside or underground is still a job though and they have been in a sharp decline looking at those charts.

    If you go out to those mining areas there isn't a whole lot going on usually and the other areas that stopped mining are just dead towns with no life.

    Put up some wind turbines in those areas for a shot of life?

    I understand for the need to stop burning coal.  It's just the areas that they effect are bad off as it is.  I think of the old steel areas too.  Most of those towns never recovered.

    I agree that cities that go into poverty because of outsourcing or, in the case of coal, discontinuation, need some kind of help with a recovery plan.  I remember passing through downtown Akron, Ohio after the tire industry had moved out.  The place was like a ghost town.  It was strange and sad. 
    The difference, of course, is that Akron and steel towns like Bethlehem PA, etc. suffered due to corporate greed moving the industry and manufacturing to other countries where they could get cheap slave labor.   Coal towns, on the other hand, may die because their industry needs to.  What they need is a transition plan.   I think that could happen if there is a will to make it happen.
    There are a number of towns and small cities in California that died when gold mining dried up. Places like Coloma became something close to being ghost towns but eventually recovered through things like tourism and wine country.  But that had at least as much to do with luck and local than planning.  Hopefully coal town will receive help through good planning.

    Almost like we need a Socialist Green New Deal... A man can dream...
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 33,347
    static111 said:
    brianlux said:
    mickeyrat said:
    mickeyrat said:
     

    I hope the coal states have a contingency plan or there will be a whole lot of people unemployed.
    they didnt for the losses stemming from mountain top removal processes that dodnt require the same number of miners


    2010 to 2020 mining jobs in the u.s.

    Mining coal from the topside or underground is still a job though and they have been in a sharp decline looking at those charts.

    If you go out to those mining areas there isn't a whole lot going on usually and the other areas that stopped mining are just dead towns with no life.

    Put up some wind turbines in those areas for a shot of life?

    I understand for the need to stop burning coal.  It's just the areas that they effect are bad off as it is.  I think of the old steel areas too.  Most of those towns never recovered.

    I agree that cities that go into poverty because of outsourcing or, in the case of coal, discontinuation, need some kind of help with a recovery plan.  I remember passing through downtown Akron, Ohio after the tire industry had moved out.  The place was like a ghost town.  It was strange and sad. 
    The difference, of course, is that Akron and steel towns like Bethlehem PA, etc. suffered due to corporate greed moving the industry and manufacturing to other countries where they could get cheap slave labor.   Coal towns, on the other hand, may die because their industry needs to.  What they need is a transition plan.   I think that could happen if there is a will to make it happen.
    There are a number of towns and small cities in California that died when gold mining dried up. Places like Coloma became something close to being ghost towns but eventually recovered through things like tourism and wine country.  But that had at least as much to do with luck and local than planning.  Hopefully coal town will receive help through good planning.

    Almost like we need a Socialist Green New Deal... A man can dream...
    If you listen to Andrew Yang and the obsolescence of certain jobs it would be wise for America to invest in it's future.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,977
    static111 said:
    brianlux said:
    mickeyrat said:
    mickeyrat said:
     

    I hope the coal states have a contingency plan or there will be a whole lot of people unemployed.
    they didnt for the losses stemming from mountain top removal processes that dodnt require the same number of miners


    2010 to 2020 mining jobs in the u.s.

    Mining coal from the topside or underground is still a job though and they have been in a sharp decline looking at those charts.

    If you go out to those mining areas there isn't a whole lot going on usually and the other areas that stopped mining are just dead towns with no life.

    Put up some wind turbines in those areas for a shot of life?

    I understand for the need to stop burning coal.  It's just the areas that they effect are bad off as it is.  I think of the old steel areas too.  Most of those towns never recovered.

    I agree that cities that go into poverty because of outsourcing or, in the case of coal, discontinuation, need some kind of help with a recovery plan.  I remember passing through downtown Akron, Ohio after the tire industry had moved out.  The place was like a ghost town.  It was strange and sad. 
    The difference, of course, is that Akron and steel towns like Bethlehem PA, etc. suffered due to corporate greed moving the industry and manufacturing to other countries where they could get cheap slave labor.   Coal towns, on the other hand, may die because their industry needs to.  What they need is a transition plan.   I think that could happen if there is a will to make it happen.
    There are a number of towns and small cities in California that died when gold mining dried up. Places like Coloma became something close to being ghost towns but eventually recovered through things like tourism and wine country.  But that had at least as much to do with luck and local than planning.  Hopefully coal town will receive help through good planning.

    Almost like we need a Socialist Green New Deal... A man can dream...
    I could support a Democratic Socialist New Deal, for sure!
    static111 said:
    brianlux said:
    mickeyrat said:
    mickeyrat said:
     

    I hope the coal states have a contingency plan or there will be a whole lot of people unemployed.
    they didnt for the losses stemming from mountain top removal processes that dodnt require the same number of miners


    2010 to 2020 mining jobs in the u.s.

    Mining coal from the topside or underground is still a job though and they have been in a sharp decline looking at those charts.

    If you go out to those mining areas there isn't a whole lot going on usually and the other areas that stopped mining are just dead towns with no life.

    Put up some wind turbines in those areas for a shot of life?

    I understand for the need to stop burning coal.  It's just the areas that they effect are bad off as it is.  I think of the old steel areas too.  Most of those towns never recovered.

    I agree that cities that go into poverty because of outsourcing or, in the case of coal, discontinuation, need some kind of help with a recovery plan.  I remember passing through downtown Akron, Ohio after the tire industry had moved out.  The place was like a ghost town.  It was strange and sad. 
    The difference, of course, is that Akron and steel towns like Bethlehem PA, etc. suffered due to corporate greed moving the industry and manufacturing to other countries where they could get cheap slave labor.   Coal towns, on the other hand, may die because their industry needs to.  What they need is a transition plan.   I think that could happen if there is a will to make it happen.
    There are a number of towns and small cities in California that died when gold mining dried up. Places like Coloma became something close to being ghost towns but eventually recovered through things like tourism and wine country.  But that had at least as much to do with luck and local than planning.  Hopefully coal town will receive help through good planning.

    Almost like we need a Socialist Green New Deal... A man can dream...
    If you listen to Andrew Yang and the obsolescence of certain jobs it would be wise for America to invest in it's future.

    Yes! 
    Yang never had a chance to become president and I sometimes sort of regret some of the money I donated for his campaign, but on the other hand, if it helped get his message out about some of the ideas he has, maybe it wasn't such a bad investment after all!
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • static111static111 Posts: 3,837
    static111 said:
    brianlux said:
    mickeyrat said:
    mickeyrat said:
     

    I hope the coal states have a contingency plan or there will be a whole lot of people unemployed.
    they didnt for the losses stemming from mountain top removal processes that dodnt require the same number of miners


    2010 to 2020 mining jobs in the u.s.

    Mining coal from the topside or underground is still a job though and they have been in a sharp decline looking at those charts.

    If you go out to those mining areas there isn't a whole lot going on usually and the other areas that stopped mining are just dead towns with no life.

    Put up some wind turbines in those areas for a shot of life?

    I understand for the need to stop burning coal.  It's just the areas that they effect are bad off as it is.  I think of the old steel areas too.  Most of those towns never recovered.

    I agree that cities that go into poverty because of outsourcing or, in the case of coal, discontinuation, need some kind of help with a recovery plan.  I remember passing through downtown Akron, Ohio after the tire industry had moved out.  The place was like a ghost town.  It was strange and sad. 
    The difference, of course, is that Akron and steel towns like Bethlehem PA, etc. suffered due to corporate greed moving the industry and manufacturing to other countries where they could get cheap slave labor.   Coal towns, on the other hand, may die because their industry needs to.  What they need is a transition plan.   I think that could happen if there is a will to make it happen.
    There are a number of towns and small cities in California that died when gold mining dried up. Places like Coloma became something close to being ghost towns but eventually recovered through things like tourism and wine country.  But that had at least as much to do with luck and local than planning.  Hopefully coal town will receive help through good planning.

    Almost like we need a Socialist Green New Deal... A man can dream...
    If you listen to Andrew Yang and the obsolescence of certain jobs it would be wise for America to invest in it's future.
    I have seen the future brother, it is murder...

    But seriously we would have to stop with guns and war, proxy or otherwise and I'm not sure that the future will take precedent before it is too late.  
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 33,347
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    brianlux said:
    mickeyrat said:
    mickeyrat said:
     

    I hope the coal states have a contingency plan or there will be a whole lot of people unemployed.
    they didnt for the losses stemming from mountain top removal processes that dodnt require the same number of miners


    2010 to 2020 mining jobs in the u.s.

    Mining coal from the topside or underground is still a job though and they have been in a sharp decline looking at those charts.

    If you go out to those mining areas there isn't a whole lot going on usually and the other areas that stopped mining are just dead towns with no life.

    Put up some wind turbines in those areas for a shot of life?

    I understand for the need to stop burning coal.  It's just the areas that they effect are bad off as it is.  I think of the old steel areas too.  Most of those towns never recovered.

    I agree that cities that go into poverty because of outsourcing or, in the case of coal, discontinuation, need some kind of help with a recovery plan.  I remember passing through downtown Akron, Ohio after the tire industry had moved out.  The place was like a ghost town.  It was strange and sad. 
    The difference, of course, is that Akron and steel towns like Bethlehem PA, etc. suffered due to corporate greed moving the industry and manufacturing to other countries where they could get cheap slave labor.   Coal towns, on the other hand, may die because their industry needs to.  What they need is a transition plan.   I think that could happen if there is a will to make it happen.
    There are a number of towns and small cities in California that died when gold mining dried up. Places like Coloma became something close to being ghost towns but eventually recovered through things like tourism and wine country.  But that had at least as much to do with luck and local than planning.  Hopefully coal town will receive help through good planning.

    Almost like we need a Socialist Green New Deal... A man can dream...
    If you listen to Andrew Yang and the obsolescence of certain jobs it would be wise for America to invest in it's future.
    I have seen the future brother, it is murder...

    But seriously we would have to stop with guns and war, proxy or otherwise and I'm not sure that the future will take precedent before it is too late.  
    We will go on no matter what happens.  Hell, if the world goes to shit it's those rural places that I would rather be in.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,977
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    brianlux said:
    mickeyrat said:
    mickeyrat said:
     

    I hope the coal states have a contingency plan or there will be a whole lot of people unemployed.
    they didnt for the losses stemming from mountain top removal processes that dodnt require the same number of miners


    2010 to 2020 mining jobs in the u.s.

    Mining coal from the topside or underground is still a job though and they have been in a sharp decline looking at those charts.

    If you go out to those mining areas there isn't a whole lot going on usually and the other areas that stopped mining are just dead towns with no life.

    Put up some wind turbines in those areas for a shot of life?

    I understand for the need to stop burning coal.  It's just the areas that they effect are bad off as it is.  I think of the old steel areas too.  Most of those towns never recovered.

    I agree that cities that go into poverty because of outsourcing or, in the case of coal, discontinuation, need some kind of help with a recovery plan.  I remember passing through downtown Akron, Ohio after the tire industry had moved out.  The place was like a ghost town.  It was strange and sad. 
    The difference, of course, is that Akron and steel towns like Bethlehem PA, etc. suffered due to corporate greed moving the industry and manufacturing to other countries where they could get cheap slave labor.   Coal towns, on the other hand, may die because their industry needs to.  What they need is a transition plan.   I think that could happen if there is a will to make it happen.
    There are a number of towns and small cities in California that died when gold mining dried up. Places like Coloma became something close to being ghost towns but eventually recovered through things like tourism and wine country.  But that had at least as much to do with luck and local than planning.  Hopefully coal town will receive help through good planning.

    Almost like we need a Socialist Green New Deal... A man can dream...
    If you listen to Andrew Yang and the obsolescence of certain jobs it would be wise for America to invest in it's future.
    I have seen the future brother, it is murder...

    But seriously we would have to stop with guns and war, proxy or otherwise and I'm not sure that the future will take precedent before it is too late.  
    We will go on no matter what happens.  Hell, if the world goes to shit it's those rural places that I would rather be in.

    You are wise to have experience in both the worlds of urban and rural. 
    But I would avoid Idaho.  I'm told that these days that state is turning into a completely anti-tolerance, anti-anything-close to liberal, major bastion of the hard core right.   Sounds a bit scary to me!  Too bad, because much of the state is beautiful.  
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 33,347
    brianlux said:
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    brianlux said:
    mickeyrat said:
    mickeyrat said:
     

    I hope the coal states have a contingency plan or there will be a whole lot of people unemployed.
    they didnt for the losses stemming from mountain top removal processes that dodnt require the same number of miners


    2010 to 2020 mining jobs in the u.s.

    Mining coal from the topside or underground is still a job though and they have been in a sharp decline looking at those charts.

    If you go out to those mining areas there isn't a whole lot going on usually and the other areas that stopped mining are just dead towns with no life.

    Put up some wind turbines in those areas for a shot of life?

    I understand for the need to stop burning coal.  It's just the areas that they effect are bad off as it is.  I think of the old steel areas too.  Most of those towns never recovered.

    I agree that cities that go into poverty because of outsourcing or, in the case of coal, discontinuation, need some kind of help with a recovery plan.  I remember passing through downtown Akron, Ohio after the tire industry had moved out.  The place was like a ghost town.  It was strange and sad. 
    The difference, of course, is that Akron and steel towns like Bethlehem PA, etc. suffered due to corporate greed moving the industry and manufacturing to other countries where they could get cheap slave labor.   Coal towns, on the other hand, may die because their industry needs to.  What they need is a transition plan.   I think that could happen if there is a will to make it happen.
    There are a number of towns and small cities in California that died when gold mining dried up. Places like Coloma became something close to being ghost towns but eventually recovered through things like tourism and wine country.  But that had at least as much to do with luck and local than planning.  Hopefully coal town will receive help through good planning.

    Almost like we need a Socialist Green New Deal... A man can dream...
    If you listen to Andrew Yang and the obsolescence of certain jobs it would be wise for America to invest in it's future.
    I have seen the future brother, it is murder...

    But seriously we would have to stop with guns and war, proxy or otherwise and I'm not sure that the future will take precedent before it is too late.  
    We will go on no matter what happens.  Hell, if the world goes to shit it's those rural places that I would rather be in.

    You are wise to have experience in both the worlds of urban and rural. 
    But I would avoid Idaho.  I'm told that these days that state is turning into a completely anti-tolerance, anti-anything-close to liberal, major bastion of the hard core right.   Sounds a bit scary to me!  Too bad, because much of the state is beautiful.  
    I have heard that about those states up in that area.  I was in Iowa a few years back and it happened to be Chadwicks area he lived in.  He wrote me a DM and said "dud, how the hell did you manage to be out my way!?!"  We chuckled about that.

    But I never saw that, nor was I looking for it, in Iowa.

    I'm a fan of western PA.  4 seasons, hills and waterways.
  • brianlux said:
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    brianlux said:
    mickeyrat said:
    mickeyrat said:
     

    I hope the coal states have a contingency plan or there will be a whole lot of people unemployed.
    they didnt for the losses stemming from mountain top removal processes that dodnt require the same number of miners


    2010 to 2020 mining jobs in the u.s.

    Mining coal from the topside or underground is still a job though and they have been in a sharp decline looking at those charts.

    If you go out to those mining areas there isn't a whole lot going on usually and the other areas that stopped mining are just dead towns with no life.

    Put up some wind turbines in those areas for a shot of life?

    I understand for the need to stop burning coal.  It's just the areas that they effect are bad off as it is.  I think of the old steel areas too.  Most of those towns never recovered.

    I agree that cities that go into poverty because of outsourcing or, in the case of coal, discontinuation, need some kind of help with a recovery plan.  I remember passing through downtown Akron, Ohio after the tire industry had moved out.  The place was like a ghost town.  It was strange and sad. 
    The difference, of course, is that Akron and steel towns like Bethlehem PA, etc. suffered due to corporate greed moving the industry and manufacturing to other countries where they could get cheap slave labor.   Coal towns, on the other hand, may die because their industry needs to.  What they need is a transition plan.   I think that could happen if there is a will to make it happen.
    There are a number of towns and small cities in California that died when gold mining dried up. Places like Coloma became something close to being ghost towns but eventually recovered through things like tourism and wine country.  But that had at least as much to do with luck and local than planning.  Hopefully coal town will receive help through good planning.

    Almost like we need a Socialist Green New Deal... A man can dream...
    If you listen to Andrew Yang and the obsolescence of certain jobs it would be wise for America to invest in it's future.
    I have seen the future brother, it is murder...

    But seriously we would have to stop with guns and war, proxy or otherwise and I'm not sure that the future will take precedent before it is too late.  
    We will go on no matter what happens.  Hell, if the world goes to shit it's those rural places that I would rather be in.

    You are wise to have experience in both the worlds of urban and rural. 
    But I would avoid Idaho.  I'm told that these days that state is turning into a completely anti-tolerance, anti-anything-close to liberal, major bastion of the hard core right.   Sounds a bit scary to me!  Too bad, because much of the state is beautiful.  
    How weak do you have to be to avoid an entire state,  in case some people may have a different viewpoint than yours? Weird
    6/16/03-St. Paul
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    9/04/11-Alpine
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