The Evolution of Handwriting

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Comments

  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 28,494
    Damn...now we are on to cannibalism.  Nope, I draw the line at eating humans...jeesh gotta have some boundaries.  Do not underestimate people's ability to survive under difficult circumstances...
    Yeah, it sounds absolutely disgusting and some of the Donner (and other families- it was called "Donner Party" but there were several families), some of them starved to death because the could not eat human flesh.  In other cases, family member ate family members.  I guess it depends on how each individual reacts under those extreme circumstances.  I don't think I would eat human flesh, but who knows, maybe I would.  I'm sure as hell not anxious to find out!
    "Hate your job, love your stuff
    If you think that's living, you are
    Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong"
    -Juliana Hatfield
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.







  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 28,494
    Personally, in my will I have opted for green burial, which means that I would be buried without any embalming in a compostable cloth bag or thin wooden box, and allowed to compost that way. Takes more space than human composting, though. 
    A fine way to go.
    "Hate your job, love your stuff
    If you think that's living, you are
    Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong"
    -Juliana Hatfield
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.







  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 7,262
    brianlux said:
    Damn...now we are on to cannibalism.  Nope, I draw the line at eating humans...jeesh gotta have some boundaries.  Do not underestimate people's ability to survive under difficult circumstances...
    Yeah, it sounds absolutely disgusting and some of the Donner (and other families- it was called "Donner Party" but there were several families), some of them starved to death because the could not eat human flesh.  In other cases, family member ate family members.  I guess it depends on how each individual reacts under those extreme circumstances.  I don't think I would eat human flesh, but who knows, maybe I would.  I'm sure as hell not anxious to find out!
    To me it really is disgusting, no chance of them savages getting to me, Canada is a great big country with lots of places where few people want to live...I'll head there.




  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 28,494
    brianlux said:
    Damn...now we are on to cannibalism.  Nope, I draw the line at eating humans...jeesh gotta have some boundaries.  Do not underestimate people's ability to survive under difficult circumstances...
    Yeah, it sounds absolutely disgusting and some of the Donner (and other families- it was called "Donner Party" but there were several families), some of them starved to death because the could not eat human flesh.  In other cases, family member ate family members.  I guess it depends on how each individual reacts under those extreme circumstances.  I don't think I would eat human flesh, but who knows, maybe I would.  I'm sure as hell not anxious to find out!
    To me it really is disgusting, no chance of them savages getting to me, Canada is a great big country with lots of places where few people want to live...I'll head there.




    What if you were ship wrecked and floating on a raft and one of the people with you died and you had to eat him or her or die?  No getting north to Canada in this scenario!
    "Hate your job, love your stuff
    If you think that's living, you are
    Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong"
    -Juliana Hatfield
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.







  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,762
    edited May 9
    brianlux said:
    Damn...now we are on to cannibalism.  Nope, I draw the line at eating humans...jeesh gotta have some boundaries.  Do not underestimate people's ability to survive under difficult circumstances...
    Yeah, it sounds absolutely disgusting and some of the Donner (and other families- it was called "Donner Party" but there were several families), some of them starved to death because the could not eat human flesh.  In other cases, family member ate family members.  I guess it depends on how each individual reacts under those extreme circumstances.  I don't think I would eat human flesh, but who knows, maybe I would.  I'm sure as hell not anxious to find out!
    More than half of them were actually younger than 18. Lots of kids. I suspect the fact that some died because they wouldn't eat people was mostly about religious fervour or lack thereof (I'm pretty sure they were all Christians). I believe the more adherent ones refused to do it, while the less adherent has less of a problem with it. I read that two Native guides who were with the small party that went for help (less than half of them actually made it) abandoned the group because they were so disgusted by the fact that they were eating human meat - they refused to eat it - and also because they were scared the white people would kill them for the meat. But then a couple days later the group found these two again, almost dead from starvation on the trail, and they straight up killed the Natives for the food! Not cool! Those were the only two people who were actually killed for food in the whole Donner party ordeal. Typical. :angry: That said, that is probably what allowed those few who actually completed the trek to make it out and trigger the rescue missions that followed.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 28,494
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    Damn...now we are on to cannibalism.  Nope, I draw the line at eating humans...jeesh gotta have some boundaries.  Do not underestimate people's ability to survive under difficult circumstances...
    Yeah, it sounds absolutely disgusting and some of the Donner (and other families- it was called "Donner Party" but there were several families), some of them starved to death because the could not eat human flesh.  In other cases, family member ate family members.  I guess it depends on how each individual reacts under those extreme circumstances.  I don't think I would eat human flesh, but who knows, maybe I would.  I'm sure as hell not anxious to find out!
    More than half of them were actually younger than 18. Lots of kids. I suspect the fact that some died because they wouldn't eat people was mostly about religious fervour or lack thereof (I'm pretty sure they were all Christians). I believe the more adherent ones refused to do it, while the less adherent has less of a problem with it. I read that two Native guide who was with the small party that went for help (less than half of them actually made it) abandoned the group because they were so disgusted by the fact that they were eating human meat - they refused to eat it - and also because they were scared the white people would kill them for the meat. But then a couple days later the group found these two again, almost dead from starvation on the trail, and they straight up killed the Natives for the food! Not cool! Those were the only two people who were actually killed for food in the whole Donner party ordeal. Typical. :angry: That said, that is probably what allowed those few who actually completed the trek to make it out and trigger the rescue missions that followed.
    Good points!  I read the same thing in Rarick's Desperate Passage.  The author hinted at injustice toward Native Americans but went a bit weak on the subject- one of my few disappointments with that book.
    "Hate your job, love your stuff
    If you think that's living, you are
    Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong"
    -Juliana Hatfield
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.







  • njnancynjnancy Northern New JerseyPosts: 4,917
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    Damn...now we are on to cannibalism.  Nope, I draw the line at eating humans...jeesh gotta have some boundaries.  Do not underestimate people's ability to survive under difficult circumstances...
    Yeah, it sounds absolutely disgusting and some of the Donner (and other families- it was called "Donner Party" but there were several families), some of them starved to death because the could not eat human flesh.  In other cases, family member ate family members.  I guess it depends on how each individual reacts under those extreme circumstances.  I don't think I would eat human flesh, but who knows, maybe I would.  I'm sure as hell not anxious to find out!
    More than half of them were actually younger than 18. Lots of kids. I suspect the fact that some died because they wouldn't eat people was mostly about religious fervour or lack thereof (I'm pretty sure they were all Christians). I believe the more adherent ones refused to do it, while the less adherent has less of a problem with it. I read that two Native guide who was with the small party that went for help (less than half of them actually made it) abandoned the group because they were so disgusted by the fact that they were eating human meat - they refused to eat it - and also because they were scared the white people would kill them for the meat. But then a couple days later the group found these two again, almost dead from starvation on the trail, and they straight up killed the Natives for the food! Not cool! Those were the only two people who were actually killed for food in the whole Donner party ordeal. Typical. :angry: That said, that is probably what allowed those few who actually completed the trek to make it out and trigger the rescue missions that followed.
    Good points!  I read the same thing in Rarick's Desperate Passage.  The author hinted at injustice toward Native Americans but went a bit weak on the subject- one of my few disappointments with that book.
    Once the decision is made to eat another human, you have crossed a certain line and that encompasses more than the cannibalism. Trust in others is gone. Your personal safety is gone because you are not a fellow traveler anymore, you are a potential food source, esp. if you are well and not 'diseased', more to go around. Some people became gluttons while others adhered to the strict rules made when the horrible decision was made. Some people went insane and were found doing unimaginable things. Some may have survived the Winter, but no one came out of the situation okay. There were one or two people who refused to cannibalize who survived. 

    In the instance of the Donner Party, the idea of having a member of my family, especially a child, be dinner would be something that I would not be able to psychologically withstand. The idea or image of people, possibly fellow family members, chowing down on my kid would quite literally break my brain. I'd rather die (and wind up eaten) but at least I wouldn't have to experience human nature at its cruelest and most savage. Sometimes there are situations that are not worth surviving. What do you have to live for when your family has been eaten. One could say living through that makes someone psychologically strong, but I think it is quite the opposite. In the way that it went down with the Donner Party, there was a greed, callousness and disregard for human life that became apparent the moment that line was crossed. There is survival and there is depravity. Depravity over ruled those who were only willing to do the minimum needed to survive. 

    I believe that all members of the Donner Party, who were literate, wrote in cursive. A very flowery and Old English sort of cursive, which we know due to the diaries that some kept and are now part of history. It is a shame that people would need to have English translated to English in order to know what they said. :wink:

    Now, with the plane that crashed, there was not the depravity, due to more provisions, the possibility of rescue and the character of most of the members of the group.The fact that they were team mates seemed to play into the 'only for reason of survival' mentality.  People who didn't cannibalize survived. I don't believe they ever disclosed who engaged and who did not.

    Just as I will disclose that I would rather parts of my brain that are used in the creation and interpretation of the fine arts remain alive and not die because we begin to lose interest in forms of language, such as cursive. So many people mourned the  loss of great French Gothic art & vowed to rebuild so as not to lose a long gone art form, but are willing to lose an entire art form and language in one fell swoop. 

     Fine arts are a necessary part of a diversified culture, as much as being technologically advanced. What if the vote counter in the Donner Party did not know how to read cursive and got the vote wrong? HIstory may have been changed. But we would not know how because of those damn cursive diaries. :tongue:
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,762
    edited May 9
    I personally don't think that eating dead people to avoid starvation is cruel in the slightest, and not even really savage. Both terms should be used only for those who indeed want to and/or do kill others for the food. But I would expect people not to chow down on one's family member in front of them. Cannibals must maintain standards too! ;)
    As for how such an experience might affect someone psychologically... that would for sure vary wildly depending on each individual's disposition and personal psychological experience under the same circumstances, and I would guess that for the most part, how one reacts to it would not really be dependent on whether or not they are "people of character".
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • njnancynjnancy Northern New JerseyPosts: 4,917
    edited May 9
    PJ_Soul said:
    I personally don't think that eating dead people to avoid starvation is cruel in the slightest, and not even really savage. Both terms should be used only for those who indeed want to and/or do kill others for the food. But I would expect people not to chow down on one's family member in front of them. Cannibals must maintain standards too! ;)
    As for how such an experience might affect someone psychologically... that would for sure vary wildly depending on each individual's disposition and personal psychological experience under the same circumstances, and I would guess that for the most part, how one reacts to it would not really be dependent on whether or not they are "people of character".
    That only applies to people on sport's teams. :confused:

    Now working cursive into the Donner Party in two different ways - I can only attribute that dedication to thread integrity to my fine character   arts developed brain. 
    Post edited by njnancy on
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,762
    njnancy said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    I personally don't think that eating dead people to avoid starvation is cruel in the slightest, and not even really savage. Both terms should be used only for those who indeed want to and/or do kill others for the food. But I would expect people not to chow down on one's family member in front of them. Cannibals must maintain standards too! ;)
    As for how such an experience might affect someone psychologically... that would for sure vary wildly depending on each individual's disposition and personal psychological experience under the same circumstances, and I would guess that for the most part, how one reacts to it would not really be dependent on whether or not they are "people of character".
    That only applies to people on sport's teams. :confused:


    :confused: Sorry Nancy, I don't understand what you mean here! :)
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,762
    edited May 9
    Oh, BTW, I personally don't think that there is any risk at all of actually losing the art of cursive altogether just because it's not taught to all students in elementary school. Cursive isn't going anywhere as an art form either way. There will always be people who learn it and also those who master it. And like I said, I think it would be a good art elective in high school. Then those who do learn it would likely be VERY good at it, like calligraphy level stuff.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • njnancynjnancy Northern New JerseyPosts: 4,917
    PJ_Soul said:
    njnancy said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    I personally don't think that eating dead people to avoid starvation is cruel in the slightest, and not even really savage. Both terms should be used only for those who indeed want to and/or do kill others for the food. But I would expect people not to chow down on one's family member in front of them. Cannibals must maintain standards too! ;)
    As for how such an experience might affect someone psychologically... that would for sure vary wildly depending on each individual's disposition and personal psychological experience under the same circumstances, and I would guess that for the most part, how one reacts to it would not really be dependent on whether or not they are "people of character".
    That only applies to people on sport's teams. :confused:


    :confused: Sorry Nancy, I don't understand what you mean here! :)
    It was meant to not make much sense. 

     People of character was a term I used without really being committed to the full meaning. In my mind, I was thinking of the Plane people (sports team) and the Donner Party, who I see in two very different ways, and not expounding the thought/theory to the public at large. (And I don't think of the entire Donner Party in the same way. There were certain elements of it that I would say were not of high moral character. That was where the comparison originated. 

    In retrospect,  I don't stand by that term in my original statement because I did not mean to apply it to the population of the world. I was thinking narrowly and should have left that out that descriptor.

    I would not be able to eat people, so I would not make it through a catastrophic event. I live in an urban area so I would not be able to make it to an area that would be safe and able to be used as a base for living off the land. I would be screwed. The only people who would make it would be the off the grid people with their MRE's and poop eating tilapia living in collected rain water. But it would only be a matter of time before they would all shoot each other. I don't see a group of friendly capable people forming and re-creating society from scratch. City people would be stuck in resource barren cities and people living out in the country would become very anti-trespasser. We got enough guns to last a long time.

     PJ_Soul said:
    Oh, BTW, I personally don't think that there is any risk at all of actually losing the art of cursive altogether just because it's not taught to all students in elementary school. Cursive isn't going anywhere as an art form either way. There will always be people who learn it and also those who master it. And like I said, I think it would be a good art elective in high school. Then those who do learn it would likely be VERY good at it, like calligraphy level stuff.

    I agree. I just like the argument. I also like the idea of an elective. If I was back in high school :open_mouth: I would take it for the last 3 semesters - I'd have to take shop first - that's the best elective. 

    I like the idea of Calligraphy level - that means all the really nice paper and writing utensils and ink would go to the cursive prone. Very cool. :joy:


  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 28,494
    njnancy said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    Damn...now we are on to cannibalism.  Nope, I draw the line at eating humans...jeesh gotta have some boundaries.  Do not underestimate people's ability to survive under difficult circumstances...
    Yeah, it sounds absolutely disgusting and some of the Donner (and other families- it was called "Donner Party" but there were several families), some of them starved to death because the could not eat human flesh.  In other cases, family member ate family members.  I guess it depends on how each individual reacts under those extreme circumstances.  I don't think I would eat human flesh, but who knows, maybe I would.  I'm sure as hell not anxious to find out!
    More than half of them were actually younger than 18. Lots of kids. I suspect the fact that some died because they wouldn't eat people was mostly about religious fervour or lack thereof (I'm pretty sure they were all Christians). I believe the more adherent ones refused to do it, while the less adherent has less of a problem with it. I read that two Native guide who was with the small party that went for help (less than half of them actually made it) abandoned the group because they were so disgusted by the fact that they were eating human meat - they refused to eat it - and also because they were scared the white people would kill them for the meat. But then a couple days later the group found these two again, almost dead from starvation on the trail, and they straight up killed the Natives for the food! Not cool! Those were the only two people who were actually killed for food in the whole Donner party ordeal. Typical. :angry: That said, that is probably what allowed those few who actually completed the trek to make it out and trigger the rescue missions that followed.
    Good points!  I read the same thing in Rarick's Desperate Passage.  The author hinted at injustice toward Native Americans but went a bit weak on the subject- one of my few disappointments with that book.
    Once the decision is made to eat another human, you have crossed a certain line and that encompasses more than the cannibalism. Trust in others is gone. Your personal safety is gone because you are not a fellow traveler anymore, you are a potential food source, esp. if you are well and not 'diseased', more to go around. Some people became gluttons while others adhered to the strict rules made when the horrible decision was made. Some people went insane and were found doing unimaginable things. Some may have survived the Winter, but no one came out of the situation okay. There were one or two people who refused to cannibalize who survived. 

    In the instance of the Donner Party, the idea of having a member of my family, especially a child, be dinner would be something that I would not be able to psychologically withstand. The idea or image of people, possibly fellow family members, chowing down on my kid would quite literally break my brain. I'd rather die (and wind up eaten) but at least I wouldn't have to experience human nature at its cruelest and most savage. Sometimes there are situations that are not worth surviving. What do you have to live for when your family has been eaten. One could say living through that makes someone psychologically strong, but I think it is quite the opposite. In the way that it went down with the Donner Party, there was a greed, callousness and disregard for human life that became apparent the moment that line was crossed. There is survival and there is depravity. Depravity over ruled those who were only willing to do the minimum needed to survive. 

    I believe that all members of the Donner Party, who were literate, wrote in cursive. A very flowery and Old English sort of cursive, which we know due to the diaries that some kept and are now part of history. It is a shame that people would need to have English translated to English in order to know what they said. :wink:

    Now, with the plane that crashed, there was not the depravity, due to more provisions, the possibility of rescue and the character of most of the members of the group.The fact that they were team mates seemed to play into the 'only for reason of survival' mentality.  People who didn't cannibalize survived. I don't believe they ever disclosed who engaged and who did not.

    Just as I will disclose that I would rather parts of my brain that are used in the creation and interpretation of the fine arts remain alive and not die because we begin to lose interest in forms of language, such as cursive. So many people mourned the  loss of great French Gothic art & vowed to rebuild so as not to lose a long gone art form, but are willing to lose an entire art form and language in one fell swoop. 

     Fine arts are a necessary part of a diversified culture, as much as being technologically advanced. What if the vote counter in the Donner Party did not know how to read cursive and got the vote wrong? HIstory may have been changed. But we would not know how because of those damn cursive diaries. :tongue:
    You make some very good points here, Nancy.  Yes, opting to engage in cannibalism does cross a line of sorts but when a person is starving, those lines often become blurred.  Some of those travelers held out and starved to death, others either may have had weaker morals... or maybe they just had a different set of morals or maybe the had very strong survival instincts. 

    The disastrous incidents on the east side of the Sierras were actually a culmination of a number of terrible choices made by those families involved right from the get go.  At the outset, they left later than they should have.  They also made a huge mistake trying to take a short cut through the Wasatch Mountains that cost them much time, energy and resources and there were plenty of warning sign that should have prompted them to take the more tried and true northern route through the mountains.  My impression is that these particular families were not well adapted to this kind of excursion.  Other than the hired help, the travelers were mostly well to fairly well off families (poor people could not afford the supplies and resources to make the journey on their own.)  The fact that as many of them made it to California as did is more a matter of dumb luck and brave rescue teams.  Without those rescue efforts, I'm guessing most or all of them would have died.

    The few letters and journals that survived did indeed illustrate that those people wrote in cursive but they also illustrates, for the most part, a poor understanding of grammar and spelling.  It's surprising to see how poorly some of that work is written!

    It's difficult to judge others in such situations. The survivors of the Andes crash of the plane that was carrying the soccer team and others would not have lived if not for cannibalism.  Not a one of them would have survived.  Should they have all dies or is it right that some lived?  Tough question.


    "Hate your job, love your stuff
    If you think that's living, you are
    Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong"
    -Juliana Hatfield
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.







  • njnancynjnancy Northern New JerseyPosts: 4,917
    brianlux said:
    njnancy said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:


    Once the decision is made to eat another human, you have crossed a certain line and that encompasses more than the cannibalism. Trust in others is gone. Your personal safety is gone because you are not a fellow traveler anymore, you are a potential food source, esp. if you are well and not 'diseased', more to go around. Some people became gluttons while others adhered to the strict rules made when the horrible decision was made. Some people went insane and were found doing unimaginable things. Some may have survived the Winter, but no one came out of the situation okay. There were one or two people who refused to cannibalize who survived. 

    In the instance of the Donner Party, the idea of having a member of my family, especially a child, be dinner would be something that I would not be able to psychologically withstand. The idea or image of people, possibly fellow family members, chowing down on my kid would quite literally break my brain. I'd rather die (and wind up eaten) but at least I wouldn't have to experience human nature at its cruelest and most savage. Sometimes there are situations that are not worth surviving. What do you have to live for when your family has been eaten. One could say living through that makes someone psychologically strong, but I think it is quite the opposite. In the way that it went down with the Donner Party, there was a greed, callousness and disregard for human life that became apparent the moment that line was crossed. There is survival and there is depravity. Depravity over ruled those who were only willing to do the minimum needed to survive. 

    I believe that all members of the Donner Party, who were literate, wrote in cursive. A very flowery and Old English sort of cursive, which we know due to the diaries that some kept and are now part of history. It is a shame that people would need to have English translated to English in order to know what they said. :wink:

    Now, with the plane that crashed, there was not the depravity, due to more provisions, the possibility of rescue and the character of most of the members of the group.The fact that they were team mates seemed to play into the 'only for reason of survival' mentality.  People who didn't cannibalize survived. I don't believe they ever disclosed who engaged and who did not.

    Just as I will disclose that I would rather parts of my brain that are used in the creation and interpretation of the fine arts remain alive and not die because we begin to lose interest in forms of language, such as cursive. So many people mourned the  loss of great French Gothic art & vowed to rebuild so as not to lose a long gone art form, but are willing to lose an entire art form and language in one fell swoop. 

     Fine arts are a necessary part of a diversified culture, as much as being technologically advanced. What if the vote counter in the Donner Party did not know how to read cursive and got the vote wrong? HIstory may have been changed. But we would not know how because of those damn cursive diaries. :tongue:
    You make some very good points here, Nancy.  Yes, opting to engage in cannibalism does cross a line of sorts but when a person is starving, those lines often become blurred.  Some of those travelers held out and starved to death, others either may have had weaker morals... or maybe they just had a different set of morals or maybe the had very strong survival instincts. 

    The disastrous incidents on the east side of the Sierras were actually a culmination of a number of terrible choices made by those families involved right from the get go.  At the outset, they left later than they should have.  They also made a huge mistake trying to take a short cut through the Wasatch Mountains that cost them much time, energy and resources and there were plenty of warning sign that should have prompted them to take the more tried and true northern route through the mountains.  My impression is that these particular families were not well adapted to this kind of excursion.  Other than the hired help, the travelers were mostly well to fairly well off families (poor people could not afford the supplies and resources to make the journey on their own.)  The fact that as many of them made it to California as did is more a matter of dumb luck and brave rescue teams.  Without those rescue efforts, I'm guessing most or all of them would have died.

    The few letters and journals that survived did indeed illustrate that those people wrote in cursive but they also illustrates, for the most part, a poor understanding of grammar and spelling.  It's surprising to see how poorly some of that work is written!

    It's difficult to judge others in such situations. The survivors of the Andes crash of the plane that was carrying the soccer team and others would not have lived if not for cannibalism.  Not a one of them would have survived.  Should they have all dies or is it right that some lived?  Tough question.


    What led the Donner Party to their dilemma was definitely a bunch of really stupid mistakes. 

    My argument isn't a judgement of good or bad, except for those persons who took it to a level which was questionable at best, it is just that I cannot say I could do so. Especially with family, I would probably take my own life first, but I have no idea what it is to be starving to death. I still cannot say with surety that I would, like some people have. I feel that I would have a mental break at that point. 

    I thought that not everyone from the plane crash participated. They did not reveal who did or did not or how many did or did not, leaving the question open. So I have always believed that there were some who did not eat the dead but survived. Perhaps I am incorrect. I do not think that any of them should be judged in any way for what they did to survive though. The decision to do what they had to in order to live was agonizing enough and without sitting on that mountain with them, I am not in a position to judge. I need to check on the facts about that incident again.

    I also wonder how it has/had affected the people once they regained 'civilized' society. Were they at peace with their decision or did it haunt them. I really wonder about the aftermath upon rescue. I suppose for each person, the effect would be different. 

    Perhaps the grammar and spelling were affected by their poor state of health? :wink: Probably not. I am grateful that some wrote anything at all once their situation was dire so we are able to know of what they endured.  And they were damn lucky to be 'important' enough to have people so bravely risk their own lives to rescue those who survived, which was indeed a higher number than logic would conclude. 

    The memoir writing was my attempt to regain thread integrity. I believe that cannibalism is more interesting to many than handwriting, though. Or maybe just the idea of being put into such a dire situation that a decision such as that would have to be entertained and acted upon. May none of us ever be in such peril. 
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 28,494
    edited May 10
    njnancy said:
    brianlux said:
    njnancy said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:


    Once the decision is made to eat another human, you have crossed a certain line and that encompasses more than the cannibalism. Trust in others is gone. Your personal safety is gone because you are not a fellow traveler anymore, you are a potential food source, esp. if you are well and not 'diseased', more to go around. Some people became gluttons while others adhered to the strict rules made when the horrible decision was made. Some people went insane and were found doing unimaginable things. Some may have survived the Winter, but no one came out of the situation okay. There were one or two people who refused to cannibalize who survived. 

    In the instance of the Donner Party, the idea of having a member of my family, especially a child, be dinner would be something that I would not be able to psychologically withstand. The idea or image of people, possibly fellow family members, chowing down on my kid would quite literally break my brain. I'd rather die (and wind up eaten) but at least I wouldn't have to experience human nature at its cruelest and most savage. Sometimes there are situations that are not worth surviving. What do you have to live for when your family has been eaten. One could say living through that makes someone psychologically strong, but I think it is quite the opposite. In the way that it went down with the Donner Party, there was a greed, callousness and disregard for human life that became apparent the moment that line was crossed. There is survival and there is depravity. Depravity over ruled those who were only willing to do the minimum needed to survive. 

    I believe that all members of the Donner Party, who were literate, wrote in cursive. A very flowery and Old English sort of cursive, which we know due to the diaries that some kept and are now part of history. It is a shame that people would need to have English translated to English in order to know what they said. :wink:

    Now, with the plane that crashed, there was not the depravity, due to more provisions, the possibility of rescue and the character of most of the members of the group.The fact that they were team mates seemed to play into the 'only for reason of survival' mentality.  People who didn't cannibalize survived. I don't believe they ever disclosed who engaged and who did not.

    Just as I will disclose that I would rather parts of my brain that are used in the creation and interpretation of the fine arts remain alive and not die because we begin to lose interest in forms of language, such as cursive. So many people mourned the  loss of great French Gothic art & vowed to rebuild so as not to lose a long gone art form, but are willing to lose an entire art form and language in one fell swoop. 

     Fine arts are a necessary part of a diversified culture, as much as being technologically advanced. What if the vote counter in the Donner Party did not know how to read cursive and got the vote wrong? HIstory may have been changed. But we would not know how because of those damn cursive diaries. :tongue:
    You make some very good points here, Nancy.  Yes, opting to engage in cannibalism does cross a line of sorts but when a person is starving, those lines often become blurred.  Some of those travelers held out and starved to death, others either may have had weaker morals... or maybe they just had a different set of morals or maybe the had very strong survival instincts. 

    The disastrous incidents on the east side of the Sierras were actually a culmination of a number of terrible choices made by those families involved right from the get go.  At the outset, they left later than they should have.  They also made a huge mistake trying to take a short cut through the Wasatch Mountains that cost them much time, energy and resources and there were plenty of warning sign that should have prompted them to take the more tried and true northern route through the mountains.  My impression is that these particular families were not well adapted to this kind of excursion.  Other than the hired help, the travelers were mostly well to fairly well off families (poor people could not afford the supplies and resources to make the journey on their own.)  The fact that as many of them made it to California as did is more a matter of dumb luck and brave rescue teams.  Without those rescue efforts, I'm guessing most or all of them would have died.

    The few letters and journals that survived did indeed illustrate that those people wrote in cursive but they also illustrates, for the most part, a poor understanding of grammar and spelling.  It's surprising to see how poorly some of that work is written!

    It's difficult to judge others in such situations. The survivors of the Andes crash of the plane that was carrying the soccer team and others would not have lived if not for cannibalism.  Not a one of them would have survived.  Should they have all dies or is it right that some lived?  Tough question.


    What led the Donner Party to their dilemma was definitely a bunch of really stupid mistakes. 

    My argument isn't a judgement of good or bad, except for those persons who took it to a level which was questionable at best, it is just that I cannot say I could do so. Especially with family, I would probably take my own life first, but I have no idea what it is to be starving to death. I still cannot say with surety that I would, like some people have. I feel that I would have a mental break at that point. 

    I thought that not everyone from the plane crash participated. They did not reveal who did or did not or how many did or did not, leaving the question open. So I have always believed that there were some who did not eat the dead but survived. Perhaps I am incorrect. I do not think that any of them should be judged in any way for what they did to survive though. The decision to do what they had to in order to live was agonizing enough and without sitting on that mountain with them, I am not in a position to judge. I need to check on the facts about that incident again.

    I also wonder how it has/had affected the people once they regained 'civilized' society. Were they at peace with their decision or did it haunt them. I really wonder about the aftermath upon rescue. I suppose for each person, the effect would be different. 

    Perhaps the grammar and spelling were affected by their poor state of health? :wink: Probably not. I am grateful that some wrote anything at all once their situation was dire so we are able to know of what they endured.  And they were damn lucky to be 'important' enough to have people so bravely risk their own lives to rescue those who survived, which was indeed a higher number than logic would conclude. 

    The memoir writing was my attempt to regain thread integrity. I believe that cannibalism is more interesting to many than handwriting, though. Or maybe just the idea of being put into such a dire situation that a decision such as that would have to be entertained and acted upon. May none of us ever be in such peril. 
    I honestly can't say if I would partake or not.  I can't imagine doing so but I also can't imagine being on the verge of starving to death.

    It's been awhile since I've read Alive and seen the movie about the soccer players but it seems to me I remember a few dies because they could not get themselves to participate.  As for re-entering society- I can't imagine that either!
    "Hate your job, love your stuff
    If you think that's living, you are
    Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong"
    -Juliana Hatfield
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.







  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,762
    edited May 10
    brianlux said:
    njnancy said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    Damn...now we are on to cannibalism.  Nope, I draw the line at eating humans...jeesh gotta have some boundaries.  Do not underestimate people's ability to survive under difficult circumstances...
    Yeah, it sounds absolutely disgusting and some of the Donner (and other families- it was called "Donner Party" but there were several families), some of them starved to death because the could not eat human flesh.  In other cases, family member ate family members.  I guess it depends on how each individual reacts under those extreme circumstances.  I don't think I would eat human flesh, but who knows, maybe I would.  I'm sure as hell not anxious to find out!
    More than half of them were actually younger than 18. Lots of kids. I suspect the fact that some died because they wouldn't eat people was mostly about religious fervour or lack thereof (I'm pretty sure they were all Christians). I believe the more adherent ones refused to do it, while the less adherent has less of a problem with it. I read that two Native guide who was with the small party that went for help (less than half of them actually made it) abandoned the group because they were so disgusted by the fact that they were eating human meat - they refused to eat it - and also because they were scared the white people would kill them for the meat. But then a couple days later the group found these two again, almost dead from starvation on the trail, and they straight up killed the Natives for the food! Not cool! Those were the only two people who were actually killed for food in the whole Donner party ordeal. Typical. :angry: That said, that is probably what allowed those few who actually completed the trek to make it out and trigger the rescue missions that followed.
    Good points!  I read the same thing in Rarick's Desperate Passage.  The author hinted at injustice toward Native Americans but went a bit weak on the subject- one of my few disappointments with that book.
    Once the decision is made to eat another human, you have crossed a certain line and that encompasses more than the cannibalism. Trust in others is gone. Your personal safety is gone because you are not a fellow traveler anymore, you are a potential food source, esp. if you are well and not 'diseased', more to go around. Some people became gluttons while others adhered to the strict rules made when the horrible decision was made. Some people went insane and were found doing unimaginable things. Some may have survived the Winter, but no one came out of the situation okay. There were one or two people who refused to cannibalize who survived. 

    In the instance of the Donner Party, the idea of having a member of my family, especially a child, be dinner would be something that I would not be able to psychologically withstand. The idea or image of people, possibly fellow family members, chowing down on my kid would quite literally break my brain. I'd rather die (and wind up eaten) but at least I wouldn't have to experience human nature at its cruelest and most savage. Sometimes there are situations that are not worth surviving. What do you have to live for when your family has been eaten. One could say living through that makes someone psychologically strong, but I think it is quite the opposite. In the way that it went down with the Donner Party, there was a greed, callousness and disregard for human life that became apparent the moment that line was crossed. There is survival and there is depravity. Depravity over ruled those who were only willing to do the minimum needed to survive. 

    I believe that all members of the Donner Party, who were literate, wrote in cursive. A very flowery and Old English sort of cursive, which we know due to the diaries that some kept and are now part of history. It is a shame that people would need to have English translated to English in order to know what they said. :wink:

    Now, with the plane that crashed, there was not the depravity, due to more provisions, the possibility of rescue and the character of most of the members of the group.The fact that they were team mates seemed to play into the 'only for reason of survival' mentality.  People who didn't cannibalize survived. I don't believe they ever disclosed who engaged and who did not.

    Just as I will disclose that I would rather parts of my brain that are used in the creation and interpretation of the fine arts remain alive and not die because we begin to lose interest in forms of language, such as cursive. So many people mourned the  loss of great French Gothic art & vowed to rebuild so as not to lose a long gone art form, but are willing to lose an entire art form and language in one fell swoop. 

     Fine arts are a necessary part of a diversified culture, as much as being technologically advanced. What if the vote counter in the Donner Party did not know how to read cursive and got the vote wrong? HIstory may have been changed. But we would not know how because of those damn cursive diaries. :tongue:
    You make some very good points here, Nancy.  Yes, opting to engage in cannibalism does cross a line of sorts but when a person is starving, those lines often become blurred.  Some of those travelers held out and starved to death, others either may have had weaker morals... or maybe they just had a different set of morals or maybe the had very strong survival instincts. 

    The disastrous incidents on the east side of the Sierras were actually a culmination of a number of terrible choices made by those families involved right from the get go.  At the outset, they left later than they should have.  They also made a huge mistake trying to take a short cut through the Wasatch Mountains that cost them much time, energy and resources and there were plenty of warning sign that should have prompted them to take the more tried and true northern route through the mountains.  My impression is that these particular families were not well adapted to this kind of excursion.  Other than the hired help, the travelers were mostly well to fairly well off families (poor people could not afford the supplies and resources to make the journey on their own.)  The fact that as many of them made it to California as did is more a matter of dumb luck and brave rescue teams.  Without those rescue efforts, I'm guessing most or all of them would have died.

    The few letters and journals that survived did indeed illustrate that those people wrote in cursive but they also illustrates, for the most part, a poor understanding of grammar and spelling.  It's surprising to see how poorly some of that work is written!

    It's difficult to judge others in such situations. The survivors of the Andes crash of the plane that was carrying the soccer team and others would not have lived if not for cannibalism.  Not a one of them would have survived.  Should they have all dies or is it right that some lived?  Tough question.


    I don't think it's a tough question  at all, personally. Why let social taboos (that don't actually take a life) prevent survival? I seriously don't understand how this is even debatable. I do think that some would rather doe of course (that has been proven), bit I also think plenty of people who think they qouldn-/ absolitelyvwpukd ince they are actually facing death by starvation. Me, I wouldn't like it obviously, but I also wouldn't really hesitate. This may be because I feel no attachment or sentimentality when it comes to carcasses. Frankly, I don't even find much importance in the honoring of remains in general. It's the memories of when the creature/human is alive that matter. I don't even care what happens to my own remains at all - I will only be buried in my family plot because my mother cares about people being able to find our family during genealogical research, lol. I know many (most) would disagree with me there.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 12,230
    You can't judge someone for survival cannibalism until you've gone a week without eating.
    You can't say, "I would rather die" until you've gone through the pain and desperation of starving to death.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 12,230
    Cursive writing isn't art, and it won't be lost to humanity just because we stop forcing it down kids' throats inappropriately.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,762
    rgambs said:
    Cursive writing isn't art, and it won't be lost to humanity just because we stop forcing it down kids' throats inappropriately.
    It CAN be art, but the regular everyday writing that we all do because we learned it in elementary school certainly isn't.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 28,494
    As long as there is some semblance of civilization, there will likely be written forms of communication and writing does change over time.  But what the loss of writing in cursive is to me, as much as anything, is that it is a sort of metaphor for the loss of basic, hands-on skills.  More and more, we humans rely on machines.  And if certain inventors have their way, we will become part machine and maybe even eventually mostly of fully machines.  So really (and I know this probably sounds bad), I would rather see things break down before that happens.
    "Hate your job, love your stuff
    If you think that's living, you are
    Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong"
    -Juliana Hatfield
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.







  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 12,230
    brianlux said:
    As long as there is some semblance of civilization, there will likely be written forms of communication and writing does change over time.  But what the loss of writing in cursive is to me, as much as anything, is that it is a sort of metaphor for the loss of basic, hands-on skills.  More and more, we humans rely on machines.  And if certain inventors have their way, we will become part machine and maybe even eventually mostly of fully machines.  So really (and I know this probably sounds bad), I would rather see things break down before that happens.
    You know I share your concerns about people losing their touch with the business of living (pun intended, of course) but I don't really feel the metaphor in cursive handwriting.

    I think some conventions and traditions just live on too long and cursive writing just isn't a practical skill.  Printing is just fine and it isn't agony for kids to learn.
    While I am thinking about conventions and traditions that need to die...
    Cards.  
    Every "decent" damn card is 5$ now and I'm still expected to buy one for every damn occasion?  It's stupid and it's wasteful.  
    Down with Hallmark!!

    Seriously though, cards need to go.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 28,494
    edited May 10
    rgambs said:
    brianlux said:
    As long as there is some semblance of civilization, there will likely be written forms of communication and writing does change over time.  But what the loss of writing in cursive is to me, as much as anything, is that it is a sort of metaphor for the loss of basic, hands-on skills.  More and more, we humans rely on machines.  And if certain inventors have their way, we will become part machine and maybe even eventually mostly of fully machines.  So really (and I know this probably sounds bad), I would rather see things break down before that happens.
    You know I share your concerns about people losing their touch with the business of living (pun intended, of course) but I don't really feel the metaphor in cursive handwriting.

    I think some conventions and traditions just live on too long and cursive writing just isn't a practical skill.  Printing is just fine and it isn't agony for kids to learn.
    While I am thinking about conventions and traditions that need to die...
    Cards.  
    Every "decent" damn card is 5$ now and I'm still expected to buy one for every damn occasion?  It's stupid and it's wasteful.  
    Down with Hallmark!!

    Seriously though, cards need to go.
    As I often say, "What? Another damn Hallmark Holiday?"  haha.   I do like sending cards on occasion but not because it's some phony holiday made up as an excuse to get people to buy crap.  But for a special occasion with personal meaning or as a way to say "thank you", I might send a really nice art card to someone and hope they will put it on the fridge.  Art cards can also be put in a frame and look great where something small on the wall is appropriate.  And postcards are great- far less expensive to buy and send.  I'm definitely a post card friend.

    Want to get a post card from me?  Anybody here can PM me your mailing address and I'll send you one.  I have a bunch of them in a drawer.  You never know what you might get.  Anything from an animal postcard to a nature post card to an airplane postcard.  Try your luck!  :smile:

    EDIT:  Maybe include your name in the PM.  I know a lot of them but sometimes I forget them- that old age thing, lol.
    Post edited by brianlux on
    "Hate your job, love your stuff
    If you think that's living, you are
    Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong"
    -Juliana Hatfield
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.







  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 7,262

  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 28,494

    LOL.  I hate it when that happens!
    "Hate your job, love your stuff
    If you think that's living, you are
    Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong"
    -Juliana Hatfield
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.







  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,762
    edited May 13
    rgambs said:
    brianlux said:
    As long as there is some semblance of civilization, there will likely be written forms of communication and writing does change over time.  But what the loss of writing in cursive is to me, as much as anything, is that it is a sort of metaphor for the loss of basic, hands-on skills.  More and more, we humans rely on machines.  And if certain inventors have their way, we will become part machine and maybe even eventually mostly of fully machines.  So really (and I know this probably sounds bad), I would rather see things break down before that happens.
    You know I share your concerns about people losing their touch with the business of living (pun intended, of course) but I don't really feel the metaphor in cursive handwriting.

    I think some conventions and traditions just live on too long and cursive writing just isn't a practical skill.  Printing is just fine and it isn't agony for kids to learn.
    While I am thinking about conventions and traditions that need to die...
    Cards.  
    Every "decent" damn card is 5$ now and I'm still expected to buy one for every damn occasion?  It's stupid and it's wasteful.  
    Down with Hallmark!!

    Seriously though, cards need to go.
    I totally agree - greeting cards are one of the biggest rip offs going. I wish more people would realize this, and just start making their own greeting cards instead, and destroy the market for them, at least until those making and selling them lower the damn prices. Plus, I would appreciate a homemade greeting card from anyone, even if it's crappy looking, like a piece of paper folded in half with a silly drawing and comment on it, FAR more than I would appreciate some mass produced thing that someone just walked into a store and bought.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 7,262
    Go to $$$$ store...pay a buck for your card.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,762
    Go to $$$$ store...pay a buck for your card.
    Those are garbage. Why would anyone want one of those?
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 28,494
    PJ_Soul said:
    Go to $$$$ store...pay a buck for your card.
    Those are garbage. Why would anyone want one of those?
    Or anything else at a Dollar Store.  It's all crap and, Meltdown, it's mostly PLASTIC crap!
    "Hate your job, love your stuff
    If you think that's living, you are
    Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong"
    -Juliana Hatfield
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.







  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 7,262
    PJ_Soul said:
    Go to $$$$ store...pay a buck for your card.
    Those are garbage. Why would anyone want one of those?
    If someone sends me a greeting card, I appreciate the gesture...I was raised to appreciate small gestures...but that comes from having grandparents growing up in the depression and having parents who saw sacrifices of Mom and Dad during WW2. 
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 10,431
    I have found some pretty funny cards that were much enjoyed by those who received them, and I have received some funny cards that I’ve kept and that still make me smile. Of course, I would also appreciate a handwritten card, but I don’t knock purchased cards. Some of the best have been individual artists, rather than Hallmark-style mass produced. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
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