The Democratic Candidates

mickeyrat

curmudgeoness said:

mickeyrat said:

do the women running hope to win based on the sole fact they are women?  it seems because he is a front runner, thats why these are coming out now, to keep it fresh what seems to be known behaviors of him through the years and in so doing potentially forcing a polling leader out.

I want some clear definitions of what constitutes inappropriate , sexual etc.... and is there nuance in any of it. does context matter. at all.

Valid questions --

1) My understanding is that Biden gets physically close to and is rather hands-on with everyone with whom he is connecting, regardless of gender. I'm not saying this is okay or not okay, just that this is who he is and who he always has been.

2) I've seen strong suggestions that Bernie Sanders supporters are behind this. Again, just presenting that point without comment.

3) Do I think there is media bias against female candidates? After seeing what happened to Hillary Clinton over several decades, I'd have to say yes (and I say that as a woman whose current favorite is Mayor Pete).  But I don't think the female candidates are behind this particular story.

4) I think nuance and context do matter, although we haven't established any firm guidelines for okay/ not okay. Our current, Twitter-driven culture produces many rushes to judgement, and despite having that strategy blow up in people's faces repeatedly recently, we seem to keep doing it.

5) Now, one woman's perspective: (And I love "Uncle Joe") I've had the opportunity to interact socially with a number of men of Biden's age, and they tend to be, let's say, more friendly than younger men are. They like to kiss women/ me hello and goodbye. Sometimes I'm okay with this, sometimes it makes me uncomfortable (sometimes they seem just a bit too enthusiastic...). I think there are socio-economic factors in play here -- not all men of this age use this form of greeting. As a woman, and I think this is a fairly common feeling, I find that I don't know what to do when these (or other) situations make me uncomfortable. The power dynamics aren't necessarily equal. I'm not sure what the social norms are. I don't know if it's okay to speak up; if I say something, am I addressing a problem or will I be seen as irrational and demanding? If I've come to a social function with a well-cultivated firm handshake and the man I'm introduced to swoops in for a kiss, how should I react? I really don't have an answer for that.

So, I tend to give Biden the benefit of the doubt, because I believe there is no ill intent behind his actions. In the current climate, is lack of ill intent enough? for some people, yes, for others, no.

if my post suggested I thought the female candidates were somehow involved in outing the occurrences, that wasnt my intent.

I asked because I have seen a couple places that suggested Biden should step aside to let a woman have a shot. That Pete should step aside cuz, white male AND not gay enough(seriously what in the actual fuck does that mean? he isnt overdramatic and flamboyant?)

I asked about the definitions for myself mostly. I can guess what the new rules are.  but to my eye, his behavior wasnt sexual in nature. but even with that, intention means shit compared to result.  Women being human first and varied in reaction/response of what is acceptable or excusable , we're not going to get a clear objective standard.

thank you very much for your response. its a tone and conversation I hoped would come. honestly asked and honestly answered. much appreciated.

OnWis97

I think there’s some nuance here with Biden.  But we don’t do nuance anymore (if we ever did).  I hope he drops out (wait, is he even in?) soon.

I have an uncle like this.  He puts his hands on peoples’ shoulders and is just generally touchy. It’s odd and gets uncomfortable at times.  It’s in no way sexual or meant to exert power or make people uncomfortable.  There’s something he just doesn’t get.  I went to a Twins game with him a few years ago and sat down the first base line.  Miguel Cabrera hit a screaming liner in our direction.  Everyone was trying to get out of the way.  It was right at my uncle’s seat.  The young guy in front of him never moved and just stuck his hands up and pulled it out of the air.  It was fucking amazing.  Everyone was marveling at it.  As the excitement was dying down, my uncle reached down and put his arm across the guy’s chest and shook him a bit.  Made me uncomfortable.  It was him either congratulating the guy or thanking him.  No harm meant but boy was it weird.  

My my uncle is a great guy, but I am glad he’s not running for office.  The Biden stuff kinda reminds me of him.  And whether or not Biden has harassing intent, the perception will do him in.

cincybearcat

Biden is creepy.  Because of his position of power no one told him yet.  Now they are.  He should listen because his weird behavior is unacceptable.

Sniffing hair...rubbing shoulders...kissing.... dude doesn't think it's wrong BUT that is part of the problem.  Creep.

Spiritual_Chaos

Spiritual_Chaos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Re5OyMdtQE

(Why isn't it embedded?)

Meltdown99

my2hands

Girl at my office called Biden "The Hair Smeller" 

Lol

curmudgeoness

If you are going to try to make the case that Biden is creepy and/or out of touch, I suggest also referring to adult females as "women."

cincybearcat

curmudgeoness said:

If you are going to try to make the case that Biden is creepy and/or out of touch, I suggest also referring to adult females as "women."

Hahahaha “girl” is more offensive than a creepy dude that continues to touch women inappropriately? Interesting priorities.

my2hands

Good grief... it's the same as calling a man a guy, i wasn't slighting the woman ffs, get over yourself

And i wasn't making a case about anything, just reporting what someone said

But it is entertaining to watch progressive women explain away Bidens creep factor just because he's on their political team... if he was GOP,  ya'll would be eating him alive, and i know it whether you admit it or not... same way Franken and Conyers were explained away by my friends on the left

Meltdown99

Get worse under the GOP...LMFAO...how much worse can it get.  If I had to pay a fraction of what mace pays then it would not matter if it gets worse, I'd be royally screwed already...

Keeps supporting those idiots in the democrats and republicans...sounds like they got your back.

Spiritual_Chaos

cincybearcat said:

curmudgeoness said:

If you are going to try to make the case that Biden is creepy and/or out of touch, I suggest also referring to adult females as "women."

Hahahaha “girl” is more offensive than a creepy dude that continues to touch women inappropriately? Interesting priorities.

Calling a grown up college "girl" 

curmudgeoness

cincybearcat said:

curmudgeoness said:

If you are going to try to make the case that Biden is creepy and/or out of touch, I suggest also referring to adult females as "women."

Hahahaha “girl” is more offensive than a creepy dude that continues to touch women inappropriately? Interesting priorities.

No. Same mindset. And it suggests that the poster is less concerned with respecting women than s/he is with undercutting Biden. So, interesting priorities, indeed.

And, get over myself? Tell ya what -- if you go to a gym, next time you're there, go up to the biggest black dudes in there and say, "Are you boys almost done with that bench?" See how they respond. Maybe get video?

Point being, it's demeaning. Stop it.

PJ_Soul

cincybearcat said:

curmudgeoness said:

If you are going to try to make the case that Biden is creepy and/or out of touch, I suggest also referring to adult females as "women."

Hahahaha “girl” is more offensive than a creepy dude that continues to touch women inappropriately? Interesting priorities.

As a woman, I say there is nothing "creepy" about Biden at all. He does need to stop being so damned affectionate like that obviously. I'm sure he's now learned his lesson. I'm guessing nobody has called him on it before exactly because it is completely innocent, kind behaviour, and it was awkward to mention.

I would like to say that I am PISSED that the #metoo movement is being weaponized in this way.

OnWis97

The "girl" thing is an interesting one.  We tend to say "girls" and "guys" for adults when we're being casual.  Neither is formal.  But only one literally means "child."  So when I read "girl" in the post that started this all, I don't believe there was any demeaning intent.  That said, I am a believer in the power of language and that this is normalized is, um, interesting.

my2hands

curmudgeoness said:

cincybearcat said:

curmudgeoness said:

If you are going to try to make the case that Biden is creepy and/or out of touch, I suggest also referring to adult females as "women."

Hahahaha “girl” is more offensive than a creepy dude that continues to touch women inappropriately? Interesting priorities.

No. Same mindset. And it suggests that the poster is less concerned with respecting women than s/he is with undercutting Biden. So, interesting priorities, indeed.

And, get over myself? Tell ya what -- if you go to a gym, next time you're there, go up to the biggest black dudes in there and say, "Are you boys almost done with that bench?" See how they respond. Maybe get video?

Point being, it's demeaning. Stop it.

#1- less concerned with disrespecting women and undercutting Biden??? you obviously don't know shit about me, but feel free to continue to assume, it's cute lol

#2- right, because the historical context of calling black guys "boy" is the same as innocently identifying a female friend as a girl. Just stop

#3- let me say this plainly, your pc culture faux outrage is a fucking joke and continues to go too far, unless of course it's about Joe Biden being overtly creepy lol

#4- i have voted for Joe Biden several times, and it's likely i will vote for him in the primary. So, feel free to continue being an assuming curmudgeon, but i'm bored with it 

my2hands

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

curmudgeoness said:

If you are going to try to make the case that Biden is creepy and/or out of touch, I suggest also referring to adult females as "women."

Hahahaha “girl” is more offensive than a creepy dude that continues to touch women inappropriately? Interesting priorities.

As a woman, I say there is nothing "creepy" about Biden at all. He does need to stop being so damned affectionate like that obviously. I'm sure he's now learned his lesson. I'm guessing nobody has called him on it before exactly because it is completely innocent, kind behaviour, and it was awkward to mention.

I would like to say that I am PISSED that the #metoo movement is being weaponized in this way.

So you're going to dismiss the feelings & concerns of the women that have spoken up? Uncle Joe being creepy is nothing new

Honest question, what do you think of Bill Clinton? 

Any other ladies want to comment on Bill? 

oftenreading

Identifying a black man as “boy” is demeaning. Identifying an adult woman as “girl” is demeaning. Not in exactly the same way, of course, but still demeaning, and often done with that intent. It’s a diminutive, literally minimizing the person. 

Spiritual_Chaos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUKqazW-nOY

mrussel1

A woman that works directly for me told me her story today.  She's from Delaware and used to run telemarketing for a major bank. I'm going to leave out some details because she is considering going to the Philadelphia Enquirer.Several years ago,  when Biden was a senator,  he was invited to the bank because he was considering his vote on a national telemarketing law that would affect banks.  This woman,  who was in her 20s at the time,  gave him a demonstration and presentation about what they do.  At the end,  Biden went to thank her and kissed her on the nose.  She said it wasn't sexual or perverted,  just sweet.  Coincidentally,  her mom had a similar experience at the factory in Delaware where she works.  The woman I know it's considering going to the media as a counter,  like the wife of Ash Carter. The point is,  there are probably hundreds of people that Biden has encountered, that have had no issue.  He should probably stop, because of our times and the risk.  But it doesn't make him a creep.  

It's interesting that two of the most vocal anti Biden here, Cincy and Two Hands, are generally critical of Democrats.  Coincidence?