Elon Musk

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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,229
    free market will speak....
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • static111 said:
    I remember when platforms were deplatforming people and everyone was arguing that a company is not the government and doesn't need to recognize your right to free speech, and now people want the government to reign in the private company to reign in the free speech.  Here's an idea, just say no to all social media. It's garbage if they run it the way you want and it is garbage if they aren't running it the way you want. with the exception of our esteemed message board of course.
    Wow, that is the nicest way to say how hypocritical most of the rotten brains are on here…well played 
  • The very serious good faith debate club has some opinions on this subject. 
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Mar-A-Lago Posts: 20,645
    wow. all this because people dunked on him on the internet for being what he is. an incompetent businessman with far right politics.
    It's a tRump move. Like winning the presidency and putting moronic peons in positions that would normally be occupied by intelligent people.
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
    The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
    2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Mar-A-Lago Posts: 20,645
    static111 said:
    I remember when platforms were deplatforming people and everyone was arguing that a company is not the government and doesn't need to recognize your right to free speech, and now people want the government to reign in the private company to reign in the free speech.  Here's an idea, just say no to all social media. It's garbage if they run it the way you want and it is garbage if they aren't running it the way you want. with the exception of our esteemed message board of course.
    Twitter used to be so much better than FB. It started getting worse a year or so ago and now it seems to be going down the tubes.
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
    The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
    2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 5,194
    wow. all this because people dunked on him on the internet for being what he is. an incompetent businessman with far right politics.
    Some people believe Obama's dig at Trump in like 2011 led to his running for president.

    Thin-skinned billionaires may very well be our downfall.
    1995 Milwaukee     1998 Alpine, Alpine     2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston     2004 Boston, Boston     2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)     2011 Alpine, Alpine     
    2013 Wrigley     2014 St. Paul     2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley     2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley     2021 Asbury Park     2022 St Louis     2023 Austin, Austin
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Mar-A-Lago Posts: 20,645
    OnWis97 said:
    wow. all this because people dunked on him on the internet for being what he is. an incompetent businessman with far right politics.
    Some people believe Obama's dig at Trump in like 2011 led to his running for president.

    Thin-skinned billionaires may very well be our downfall.
    Very possible. But I still don't think tRump thought he would win in 2016. It was all a marketing ploy.


    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
    The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
    2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 49,032
    static111 said:
    I remember when platforms were deplatforming people and everyone was arguing that a company is not the government and doesn't need to recognize your right to free speech, and now people want the government to reign in the private company to reign in the free speech.  Here's an idea, just say no to all social media. It's garbage if they run it the way you want and it is garbage if they aren't running it the way you want. with the exception of our esteemed message board of course.
    Wow, that is the nicest way to say how hypocritical most of the rotten brains are on here…well played 

    Entertaining post, Linda. Compelling and rich. 
    www.myspace.com
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,481
    OnWis97 said:
    wow. all this because people dunked on him on the internet for being what he is. an incompetent businessman with far right politics.
    Some people believe Obama's dig at Trump in like 2011 led to his running for president.

    Thin-skinned billionaires may very well be our downfall.
    Very possible. But I still don't think tRump thought he would win in 2016. It was all a marketing ploy.


    I've seen video of Trump going back 20+ years saying if he ever runs he'd win. I think he believed it. I don't think he would have run if he didn't think he was going to win.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 49,987
    mace1229 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    wow. all this because people dunked on him on the internet for being what he is. an incompetent businessman with far right politics.
    Some people believe Obama's dig at Trump in like 2011 led to his running for president.

    Thin-skinned billionaires may very well be our downfall.
    Very possible. But I still don't think tRump thought he would win in 2016. It was all a marketing ploy.


    I've seen video of Trump going back 20+ years saying if he ever runs he'd win. I think he believed it. I don't think he would have run if he didn't think he was going to win.

    He did say that, but when it came down to it, it has been confirmed by those working with him during his campaign that he literally wasn't expecting to win more than 15% of the vote, and no intention of actually winning at all. When he did it came as a shock to him and everyone around him (as well as a sense of doom for the majority of people working on his campaign). He of course took the ball and ran with it, but he was definitely not intending to win that election when he announced. He was intending to use his run for financial gain by getting his foot further in the door.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 49,032
    mace1229 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    wow. all this because people dunked on him on the internet for being what he is. an incompetent businessman with far right politics.
    Some people believe Obama's dig at Trump in like 2011 led to his running for president.

    Thin-skinned billionaires may very well be our downfall.
    Very possible. But I still don't think tRump thought he would win in 2016. It was all a marketing ploy.


    I've seen video of Trump going back 20+ years saying if he ever runs he'd win. I think he believed it. I don't think he would have run if he didn't think he was going to win.
    Have you ever known Donald Trump to be someone who may fudge the truth from time to time?
    www.myspace.com

  • I will never understand how trump so blatantly played so many people. 
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,481
    mace1229 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    wow. all this because people dunked on him on the internet for being what he is. an incompetent businessman with far right politics.
    Some people believe Obama's dig at Trump in like 2011 led to his running for president.

    Thin-skinned billionaires may very well be our downfall.
    Very possible. But I still don't think tRump thought he would win in 2016. It was all a marketing ploy.


    I've seen video of Trump going back 20+ years saying if he ever runs he'd win. I think he believed it. I don't think he would have run if he didn't think he was going to win.
    Have you ever known Donald Trump to be someone who may fudge the truth from time to time?
    But what's bigger, his ability to fudge the truth or his ego?
  • PoncierPoncier Posts: 17,052
    mace1229 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    wow. all this because people dunked on him on the internet for being what he is. an incompetent businessman with far right politics.
    Some people believe Obama's dig at Trump in like 2011 led to his running for president.

    Thin-skinned billionaires may very well be our downfall.
    Very possible. But I still don't think tRump thought he would win in 2016. It was all a marketing ploy.


    I've seen video of Trump going back 20+ years saying if he ever runs he'd win. I think he believed it. I don't think he would have run if he didn't think he was going to win.
    Have you ever known Donald Trump to be someone who may fudge the truth from time to time?
    Only when his lips are moving.
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 16,025
    PJ_Soul said:
    mace1229 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    wow. all this because people dunked on him on the internet for being what he is. an incompetent businessman with far right politics.
    Some people believe Obama's dig at Trump in like 2011 led to his running for president.

    Thin-skinned billionaires may very well be our downfall.
    Very possible. But I still don't think tRump thought he would win in 2016. It was all a marketing ploy.


    I've seen video of Trump going back 20+ years saying if he ever runs he'd win. I think he believed it. I don't think he would have run if he didn't think he was going to win.

    He did say that, but when it came down to it, it has been confirmed by those working with him during his campaign that he literally wasn't expecting to win more than 15% of the vote, and no intention of actually winning at all. When he did it came as a shock to him and everyone around him (as well as a sense of doom for the majority of people working on his campaign). He of course took the ball and ran with it, but he was definitely not intending to win that election when he announced. He was intending to use his run for financial gain by getting his foot further in the door.
    It wasn't the first time right?  He ran like 3-4 times before I thought.   It would be shocking if he and his team thought he could win.  I wonder when the turning point was at some it became more realistic.  Still hard to believe thinking back to it.  
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,481
    Poncier said:
    mace1229 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    wow. all this because people dunked on him on the internet for being what he is. an incompetent businessman with far right politics.
    Some people believe Obama's dig at Trump in like 2011 led to his running for president.

    Thin-skinned billionaires may very well be our downfall.
    Very possible. But I still don't think tRump thought he would win in 2016. It was all a marketing ploy.


    I've seen video of Trump going back 20+ years saying if he ever runs he'd win. I think he believed it. I don't think he would have run if he didn't think he was going to win.
    Have you ever known Donald Trump to be someone who may fudge the truth from time to time?
    Only when his lips are moving.
    So you believed all his Tweets?
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 49,032
    PJ_Soul said:
    mace1229 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    wow. all this because people dunked on him on the internet for being what he is. an incompetent businessman with far right politics.
    Some people believe Obama's dig at Trump in like 2011 led to his running for president.

    Thin-skinned billionaires may very well be our downfall.
    Very possible. But I still don't think tRump thought he would win in 2016. It was all a marketing ploy.


    I've seen video of Trump going back 20+ years saying if he ever runs he'd win. I think he believed it. I don't think he would have run if he didn't think he was going to win.

    He did say that, but when it came down to it, it has been confirmed by those working with him during his campaign that he literally wasn't expecting to win more than 15% of the vote, and no intention of actually winning at all. When he did it came as a shock to him and everyone around him (as well as a sense of doom for the majority of people working on his campaign). He of course took the ball and ran with it, but he was definitely not intending to win that election when he announced. He was intending to use his run for financial gain by getting his foot further in the door.
    It wasn't the first time right?  He ran like 3-4 times before I thought.   It would be shocking if he and his team thought he could win.  I wonder when the turning point was at some it became more realistic.  Still hard to believe thinking back to it.  
    He technically ran once before as a Reform party candidate in 2000. Dropped out in the primaries as it was likely he was going to lose to Pat Buchannan. He hadn't quite mastered the "they stole it from me" move by that point. 
    www.myspace.com
  • PoncierPoncier Posts: 17,052
    mace1229 said:
    Poncier said:
    mace1229 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    wow. all this because people dunked on him on the internet for being what he is. an incompetent businessman with far right politics.
    Some people believe Obama's dig at Trump in like 2011 led to his running for president.

    Thin-skinned billionaires may very well be our downfall.
    Very possible. But I still don't think tRump thought he would win in 2016. It was all a marketing ploy.


    I've seen video of Trump going back 20+ years saying if he ever runs he'd win. I think he believed it. I don't think he would have run if he didn't think he was going to win.
    Have you ever known Donald Trump to be someone who may fudge the truth from time to time?
    Only when his lips are moving.
    So you believed all his Tweets?
    I'm sure he's the type who mouths every word as he either types or reads.
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, Colorado Posts: 10,819
    edited November 2022
    static111 said:
    I remember when platforms were deplatforming people and everyone was arguing that a company is not the government and doesn't need to recognize your right to free speech, and now people want the government to reign in the private company to reign in the free speech.  Here's an idea, just say no to all social media. It's garbage if they run it the way you want and it is garbage if they aren't running it the way you want. with the exception of our esteemed message board of course.
    Wow, that is the nicest way to say how hypocritical most of the rotten brains are on here…well played 

    Entertaining post, Linda. Compelling and rich. 
    I gave it 2 thumbs up as it was a thoughtful and  erudite contribution to the discourse.
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 6,749
    static111 said:
    I remember when platforms were deplatforming people and everyone was arguing that a company is not the government and doesn't need to recognize your right to free speech, and now people want the government to reign in the private company to reign in the free speech.  Here's an idea, just say no to all social media. It's garbage if they run it the way you want and it is garbage if they aren't running it the way you want. with the exception of our esteemed message board of course.
    Wow, that is the nicest way to say how hypocritical most of the rotten brains are on here…well played 







  • static111static111 Posts: 4,889
    static111 said:
    I remember when platforms were deplatforming people and everyone was arguing that a company is not the government and doesn't need to recognize your right to free speech, and now people want the government to reign in the private company to reign in the free speech.  Here's an idea, just say no to all social media. It's garbage if they run it the way you want and it is garbage if they aren't running it the way you want. with the exception of our esteemed message board of course.
    Twitter used to be so much better than FB. It started getting worse a year or so ago and now it seems to be going down the tubes.
    I will counter that it was never better, just that you perceived it to be.  It is the same thing it always was.  Nothing has changed since but the owner, the previous owners were just better at concealing how putrid it really is. Social media will be the death of western society.
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Mar-A-Lago Posts: 20,645
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    I remember when platforms were deplatforming people and everyone was arguing that a company is not the government and doesn't need to recognize your right to free speech, and now people want the government to reign in the private company to reign in the free speech.  Here's an idea, just say no to all social media. It's garbage if they run it the way you want and it is garbage if they aren't running it the way you want. with the exception of our esteemed message board of course.
    Twitter used to be so much better than FB. It started getting worse a year or so ago and now it seems to be going down the tubes.
    I will counter that it was never better, just that you perceived it to be.  It is the same thing it always was.  Nothing has changed since but the owner, the previous owners were just better at concealing how putrid it really is. Social media will be the death of western society.
    I got banned a few times... Once for calling Jill Stein an "old sea hag". Definitely stricter than FB
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
    The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
    2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
  • jpgoegeljpgoegel Posts: 414
    rotting pinata reference gets an A+, super album!
  • static111 said:
    I remember when platforms were deplatforming people and everyone was arguing that a company is not the government and doesn't need to recognize your right to free speech, and now people want the government to reign in the private company to reign in the free speech.  Here's an idea, just say no to all social media. It's garbage if they run it the way you want and it is garbage if they aren't running it the way you want. with the exception of our esteemed message board of course.
    Wow, that is the nicest way to say how hypocritical most of the rotten brains are on here…well played 

    Entertaining post, Linda. Compelling and rich. 
    Well someone has got to throw some reality every once in a while at this safe space of hypocrisy and silliness.   Carry on….
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,229
    I dont recall folks here saying the government should get involved here.

    free market is speaking..  

    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,229
    To be very clear, free speech is when you give me money  https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/11/30/elon-musk-twitter-free-speech-money/ 

     Opinion | To be very clear, free speech is when you give me money

    Opinion by Alexandra Petri

    November 30, 2022 at 7:00 ET

    “This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead.”
    — Elon Musk, on Twitter, the social media site he owns
    Free speech is dying!
    If you don’t pay me money for my product, that means that this great country is wrecked! Wrecked on the shoals of oppression and political correctness!
    Free speech is when you pay me money for goods or services. That’s free speech. When you do not give me money, that is censorship. Every second that you spend not paying me money for my services is another arrow stuck into the craw of liberty. Ah, liberty bleeds, and I weep for her! Please give me thousands of dollars; it is the only thing that can save her. Even if you must give them to me in small increments of $8 at a time, that is better than nothing. I believe that if you give me enough money (speech), we can still rescue this godforsaken country!
    You might have thought that free speech was when a corporation gave a lot of money to a politician. This is a very, very important form of free speech, and it is getting freer all the time! But that is certainly not the only kind of speech you can make. Just as important is when you take your small-dollar amounts and press them into the hands of a billionaire, or when an advertiser does the same thing with a larger dollar amount.
    No, I am not taking advantage of you. I am offering to give you a voice. It is very sad that you are letting liberty die because you are refusing to give me your wallet. I can’t believe you hate free speech so much!
    Oh, okay, I see where there may be some slight confusion: There is the word “free,” right there, at the start of “free speech.” It almost sounds as though you didn’t need to pay for it! But this is a common misunderstanding. This is free as in “buy one, get one,” the kind of free that is only free if you have made a purchase first.
    Why I remember when our Founders, our brave Founders, fought so strongly and so bravely for free speech. Benjamin Franklin stood there begging and beseeching the business owners of his day to put their advertisements in his Poor Richard’s Almanac. Everyone knew then as they know today that the only true free speech is when you pay somebody money to run advertisements for your business. The Bill of Rights is absolutely clear about this. Why do you think it is called a bill if not because rights require somebody to pay money to somebody else?!
    And the people who do not have money? What of them? As though they had anything to say!

    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyrat said:
    I dont recall folks here saying the government should get involved here.


    Pesky details. 
  • static111static111 Posts: 4,889
    mickeyrat said:
    I dont recall folks here saying the government should get involved here.

    free market is speaking..   
    Did anyone say that people here were calling for the government to get involved?
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 49,032
    static111 said:
    I remember when platforms were deplatforming people and everyone was arguing that a company is not the government and doesn't need to recognize your right to free speech, and now people want the government to reign in the private company to reign in the free speech.  Here's an idea, just say no to all social media. It's garbage if they run it the way you want and it is garbage if they aren't running it the way you want. with the exception of our esteemed message board of course.
    Wow, that is the nicest way to say how hypocritical most of the rotten brains are on here…well played 

    Entertaining post, Linda. Compelling and rich. 
    Well someone has got to throw some reality every once in a while at this safe space of hypocrisy and silliness.   Carry on….
    It's just been such an entertaining last few weeks....just as you predicted back before the election. Nostradamus over here!
    www.myspace.com
  • mickeyrat said:
    I dont recall folks here saying the government should get involved here.


    Pesky details. 
    Pesky facts, I think you meant?
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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