Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez

mickeyrat

Meltdown99 said:

Parents who do not show their kids that the trades are a viable option over college are not being fair to their kids.  I come from a family of tradespeople, all of them have been gainfully employed, never laid off, most have retired by 55 or are retiring at 55.  Tradespeople have no debt and in many cases make more than college graduates...and their careers are just as rewarding.  Employers have trouble filling the skilled trades because for some reason schools and parents over the last while do not view these jobs as viable...

all of the vocational high schools have been closed 20 years now or so in my town. Students split days. One half day taking normal courses then one half day of vocational training.

not even sure they do this vocational interest testing I did back when.

fucking thing was accurate too.

mrussel1

mickeyrat said:

Meltdown99 said:

Parents who do not show their kids that the trades are a viable option over college are not being fair to their kids.  I come from a family of tradespeople, all of them have been gainfully employed, never laid off, most have retired by 55 or are retiring at 55.  Tradespeople have no debt and in many cases make more than college graduates...and their careers are just as rewarding.  Employers have trouble filling the skilled trades because for some reason schools and parents over the last while do not view these jobs as viable...

all of the vocational high schools have been closed 20 years now or so in my town. Students split days. One half day taking normal courses then one half day of vocational training.

not even sure they do this vocational interest testing I did back when.

fucking thing was accurate too.

I graduated high school in 91 and it was already split into half days in Cleveland, which is a fairly blue collar town.  

mrussel1

mickeyrat said:

mrussel1 said:

HesCalledDyer said:

mrussel1 said:

HesCalledDyer said:

If someone has the the talent to work on a global scale, they most likely have the intelligence to go to college. There are people with college degrees who don’t have basic writing or arithmetic skills. They’re not competing for jobs in a global market.

So who gets to to make the decision that some kids get to go to school and some don't?

Isn’t that what college applications are for? 

Exactly.  So what are you advocating for precisely?  Are you just musing or believe there should be some efforts to reduce the number of kids in school? For the record,  I would be passionately against anything that doesn't encourage higher ed. There should be more education on how to make better economic choices in your school selection and major. 

so where then does vocational education fit into the equation?

some kids just arent built for or cut out for "higher eduction" but are more suited for very marketable skills learned in vocational education..... without the debt that comes with a college degree.

I'm sure it's true that some kids aren't built for college, but I think many of those self select out today.  The question is, how do you really  know at 18, particularly for someone right on that line.  There are so many factors that make someone successful in the white collar work force that are not just the actual grades.  Commitment, level of effort, leadership, common sense, interpersonal skills; these are all things that have as much to do with success as the grades, and they are not measured by GPA or SAT.  

Personal story, when I was 18 and finishing high school, my sister's husband (my sis is 18 years older than me) tried to convince me to move to FL, back in with my parents, and start a lawn care business down there.  They didn't think I was cut out for college, mostly because I didn't take high school seriously, and I just worked as much as I could.  I thought about it for one minute and said, fuck that, I'll start with JUCO and go from there.  There is little chance I'd make even close to what I make today, had I chosen the path that these adults believed was best for me.  The point is, you don't know how an 18 year old will do.  I believe in encouraging them to go as far as possible in education, so long as they make rational choices about the cost and degree.  

When my older kids were young, I showed them this graph, and I continue to share it because it is so telling.  Look at the unemployment rate by education.  

Meltdown99

mickeyrat said:

Meltdown99 said:

Parents who do not show their kids that the trades are a viable option over college are not being fair to their kids.  I come from a family of tradespeople, all of them have been gainfully employed, never laid off, most have retired by 55 or are retiring at 55.  Tradespeople have no debt and in many cases make more than college graduates...and their careers are just as rewarding.  Employers have trouble filling the skilled trades because for some reason schools and parents over the last while do not view these jobs as viable...

all of the vocational high schools have been closed 20 years now or so in my town. Students split days. One half day taking normal courses then one half day of vocational training.

not even sure they do this vocational interest testing I did back when.

fucking thing was accurate too.

My Dad and all his brothers attended vocational schools, which were non-existent when I entered HS.  When I was in HS they offered coursed in electrical and plumbing as well as Auto Mechanics, Carpentry, Machining... I spent 25 years working in a school board and many of these trade courses are limited to larger HS... It's not that school boards would not love to offer these, try to get folks who are working in the trades willing to go back to school and get a teaching certificate and then to ask them to work for less pay...

People in the trades are usually never unemployed.  The only trade's I would avoid is tool and die and mould making...

Meltdown99

PJ_Soul

Let' get this straight: affordable or free tuition does NOT dumb down nations or sully the level of education received in post-secondary. That is a pretty "out there" theory that has zero basis in reality. It also ignores completely the role that high tuitions have in damaging the quality of education. When degrees become a hot commodity, obviously the quality of those degrees decline. Don't underestimate the number of degrees with a great reputation that are "bought". When education becomes unaffordable, students stop viewing their educations as a way to actually learn, and start viewing it as a commodity that they are paying for, whether they work hard or not. I have seen this happen with my own eyes even where tuition is still relatively cheap. Once tuition rates started increasing from truly affordable, cheating increased insanely and more and more students felt they deserved what they didn't earn, and enough professors feel pressure to just give passing grades to avoid litigious students that it's corrupting the system. Free or cheap tuition is the only thing that actually keeps the quality of education  honest.

Anyway, aside from that... in a place where private universities barely even exist, trade schools are still popular, though more expensive. And acceptance requirements in our universities are still high.

Meltdown99

If the government wants to provide free tuition, no big deal.  As long as it stops there and does not apply to books and the cost of living.  But then the government needs to assure it extends to trade schools and private colleges...

HesCalledDyer

PJ_Soul said:

Let' get this straight: affordable or free tuition does NOT dumb down nations or sully the level of education received in post-secondary. That is an pretty "out there" theory that has zero basis in reality.

Teach a college course where the students don’t know elementary school level arithmetic and get back to me. Why are kids like that in college? Why are they even graduating high school? 

Meltdown99

HesCalledDyer said:

PJ_Soul said:

Let' get this straight: affordable or free tuition does NOT dumb down nations or sully the level of education received in post-secondary. That is an pretty "out there" theory that has zero basis in reality.

Teach a college course where the students don’t know elementary school level arithmetic and get back to me. Why are kids like that in college? Why are they even graduating high school? 

The system has been dumbed down...

PJ_Soul

HesCalledDyer said:

PJ_Soul said:

Let' get this straight: affordable or free tuition does NOT dumb down nations or sully the level of education received in post-secondary. That is an pretty "out there" theory that has zero basis in reality.

Teach a college course where the students don’t know elementary school level arithmetic and get back to me. Why are kids like that in college? Why are they even graduating high school? 

I added a whole lot to my other post. Read that. You are mistaking acceptance requirements with tuition rates somehow. Affordable tuition does not create the problem you're talking about.

HesCalledDyer

Also I never stated affordable or free education dumbs down nations. The distinction is just because it is free or affordable doesn’t mean unqualified people should go. That is what dumbs down the system. People who aren’t intelligent enough to attend college attending and getting degrees.

PJ_Soul

HesCalledDyer said:

Also I never stated affordable or free education dumbs down nations. The distinction is just because it is free or affordable doesn’t mean unqualified people should go. That is what dumbs down the system. People who aren’t intelligent enough to attend college attending and getting degrees.

But nobody said people who can't hack it should go to university. I guess I don't even know why you're talking about that. I mean, ALL education is valuable for all people. But people either still pass or fail. People either keep trying until they pass or drop out and do something else. What is the problem? The only time people are getting degrees when they can't pass anything is when they are buying their degrees - that comes from high tuition.

mrussel1

HesCalledDyer said:

Also I never stated affordable or free education dumbs down nations. The distinction is just because it is free or affordable doesn’t mean unqualified people should go. That is what dumbs down the system. People who aren’t intelligent enough to attend college attending and getting degrees.

Who are these college degreed individuals that can't do elementary math? This seems like extreme outlier,  where it may exist.  

PJ_Soul

Let's also remember that math actually isn't required for many subjects. Someone getting a degree in the arts (excluding economics) will literally never need to be good at math. That is what calculators are for. And likewise for mathematicians. Show me a really great university-level mathematician who is also great at writing composition, and I'll be pleasantly surprised that such an intellectual anomaly has been discovered. It's petty rare in any university setting, and always impressive. Hell, half the good math students at the university I work at barely speak English.

mrussel1

PJ_Soul said:

Let's also remember that math actually isn't required for many subjects. Someone getting a degree in the arts (excluding economics) will literally never need to be good at math. That is what calculators are for. And likewise for mathematicians. Show me a really great university-level mathematician who is also great at writing composition, and I'll be pleasantly surprised that such an intellectual anomaly has been discovered. It's petty rare in any university setting, and always impressive. Hell, half the good math students at the university I work at barely speak English.

While true,  it gives too much credibility to the statement.  Unless one feels there was a failing by every teacher,  state mandated testing,  the actual diploma, college entrance exams,  and by the professors, the basis of the statement is flawed.  If one passes all the tests and controls leading up to the college graduation,  then by definition they were smart enough to go to college.  

PJ_Soul

mrussel1 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Let's also remember that math actually isn't required for many subjects. Someone getting a degree in the arts (excluding economics) will literally never need to be good at math. That is what calculators are for. And likewise for mathematicians. Show me a really great university-level mathematician who is also great at writing composition, and I'll be pleasantly surprised that such an intellectual anomaly has been discovered. It's petty rare in any university setting, and always impressive. Hell, half the good math students at the university I work at barely speak English.

While true,  it gives too much credibility to the statement.  Unless one feels there was a failing by every teacher,  state mandated testing,  the actual diploma, college entrance exams,  and by the professors, the basis of the statement is flawed.  If one passes all the tests and controls leading up to the college graduation,  then by definition they were smart enough to go to college.  

I actually assumed the "elementary school level" math thing was more hyperbolic. I mean, someone IN university doing the arts and some applied sciences doesn't need to do any math at all in college, but they did need probably a minimum of a passing grade in grade 11 math. They might have forgotten everything they learned immediately, but they did manage it. So they either scraped by that level one way or another, or aren't in university. I personally barely scraped by that level, after being tutored 3 days a week by my math 11 teacher, and even then I suspect he gave me a generous mark or two just to make sure i passed. He did this because he was well aware that I was well suited for university (I had mostly A's otherwise), despite the fact that I sucked at math.

cincybearcat

PJ_Soul said:

HesCalledDyer said:

PJ_Soul said:

Let' get this straight: affordable or free tuition does NOT dumb down nations or sully the level of education received in post-secondary. That is an pretty "out there" theory that has zero basis in reality.

Teach a college course where the students don’t know elementary school level arithmetic and get back to me. Why are kids like that in college? Why are they even graduating high school? 

I added a whole lot to my other post. Read that. You are mistaking acceptance requirements with tuition rates somehow. Affordable tuition does not create the problem you're talking about.

This is true. Admission standards would need to rise significantly if free tuition occurred. And colleges/universities would have to fund more programs for disciplines that we acrually need more people from, not just have a bunch of professors in a certain college because everyone can qualify and it brings in tuition.

I never wanted to go to a vocational school. Not my skill set. But man those are sorely needed and should be a viable option. If personally he willing to provide more government funding for those types of school than many BS/BA programs at today’s universities.

mrussel1

PJ_Soul said:

mrussel1 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Let's also remember that math actually isn't required for many subjects. Someone getting a degree in the arts (excluding economics) will literally never need to be good at math. That is what calculators are for. And likewise for mathematicians. Show me a really great university-level mathematician who is also great at writing composition, and I'll be pleasantly surprised that such an intellectual anomaly has been discovered. It's petty rare in any university setting, and always impressive. Hell, half the good math students at the university I work at barely speak English.

While true,  it gives too much credibility to the statement.  Unless one feels there was a failing by every teacher,  state mandated testing,  the actual diploma, college entrance exams,  and by the professors, the basis of the statement is flawed.  If one passes all the tests and controls leading up to the college graduation,  then by definition they were smart enough to go to college.  

I actually assumed the "elementary school level" math thing was more hyperbolic. I mean, someone IN university doing the arts and some applied sciences doesn't need to do any math at all in college, but they did need probably a minimum of a passing grade in grade 11 math. They might have forgotten everything they learned immediately, but they did manage it. So they either scraped by that level one way or another, or aren't in university. I personally barely scraped by that level, after being tutored 3 days a week by my math 11 teacher, and even then I suspect he gave me a generous mark or two just to make sure i passed. He did this because he was well aware that I was well suited for university (I had mostly A's otherwise), despite the fact that I sucked at math.

If hyperbole,  that just weakens the argument.  Im curious then what makes someone too stupid or undeserving of advanced education.  If there was a whole army of people graduating without either elementary reading or math skills,  well that's an issue. If an exaggeration..

PJ_Soul

Would acceptance requirements have to rise significantly? Are they very low in the US now? I've never heard that. I had the impression that admission requirements are pretty reasonable. It's very hard to get accepted to very reputable universities and you pretty much need all As and Bs, a little easier but still hard to get into the mid-range ones, you still need pretty decent grades even for the lower rated universities and colleges, like still in the 70%+ range... and if you can't make that you start with community college and build up better grades that way until you figure out how to meet the admission requirements, which is a solid tactic for self-improvement. And if you can't do that you figure out how to get a decent job without any meaningful post-secondary education.

Meltdown99

PJ_Soul said:

Would acceptance requirements have to rise significantly? Are they very low in the US now? I've never heard that. I had the impression that admission requirements are pretty reasonable. It's very hard to get accepted to very reputable universities and you pretty much need all As and Bs, a little easier but still hard to get into the mid-range ones, you still need pretty decent grades even for the lower rated universities and colleges, like still in the 70%+ range... and if you can't make that you start with community college and build up better grades that way until you figure out how to meet the admission requirements, which is a solid tactic for self-improvement. And if you can't do that you figure out how to get a decent job without any meaningful post-secondary education.

Lots of people get well-paying jobs without a post-secondary degree.  People in the trades are likely doing better than many without a college degree.  Now mind you, some choose to start their trade in college, but many starts as an apprentice right out of HS.  In my area, the local college which offers a CNC program saw many people leave before completing the certificate program to take $20/hr hour jobs in the industry.  That was just a starting wage, increasing dramatically over the next 5 years...these jobs came with benefits, pensions, 3 weeks vacation after year 1 and no debt and no burden to taxpayers...not bad for a 20-year-old.  And that 20/hour would afford these young people a wage that also would allow them to own a home if they choose.