Beto O'Rourke

pjl44

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

I wonder if your odds of being killed by a hand grenade are greater in Sweden than the US?  Everything I have read states that gang and gun violence are on the rise in Sweden, especially in inner-cities.  What does cultural diversity have to do with gang violence?  Why the surge of these things in Sweden over the past 20 or so years?  I wonder if the increase in immigration correlates with the increase in violence aka I wonder if the increased cultural diversity has effected the level of violence within the small country?

To use our friend @pjl44 rhetoric:

"Sweden is a safe country and is becoming safer. It sees the one who looks at the statistics. The fatal violence has been the same in the last ten years, in international comparisons, low levels. Viewed over a longer period of time, it decreases - if you ignore the interwar period when strong regulation of alcohol consumption reduced fatal violence to levels that Sweden has not seen since."

It's safer than it has ever been.

Why would you call it rhetoric if it's a point we agree on?

Spiritual_Chaos

PJPOWER said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

I wonder if your odds of being killed by a hand grenade are greater in Sweden than the US?  Everything I have read states that gang and gun violence are on the rise in Sweden, especially in inner-cities.  What does cultural diversity have to do with gang violence?  Why the surge of these things in Sweden over the past 20 or so years?

Where have you read this "everything" you are talking about? Your local paper, or what media?

Not even close:  
https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-bombings-grenade-attacks-violent-reality-undoing-peaceful-self-image-law-and-order/
One of many out there.  All you have to do is google “violence in Sweden” and a plethora of articles pop up regarding increased violence there.  I thought it was all rainbows and gummy bears in Sweden...maybe not for long?

So do you usually google Sweden and crimes? "Everything I have read" make it sound like you have really taken time with this subject.

Never said it was "rainbows and gummy bears" in Sweden, being further along than the US in areas is not the same as being perfect. The difference is, if we had e.g crazy gun laws that's unheard of it all decent democracies than I would think "maybe we should correct that?" instead of mentioning something about "Cultural differences" to keep being a crazy outlier.

So - are handgrenades being smuggled from the Balkans in Sweden a problem - big or small - yeah sure. Someone mentioned two being killed in two years. Should that be zero? Yeah, sure. Do I think that it should be corrected if possible - yes. If we had a crazy gun fetish over here that seems to cloud judgments on that issue - would I want that corrected, yes.

Sometimes you have to raise your eyes a bit. And look past the flag and the bald eagle and Ted Cruz wanting to control womens bodies.

PJPOWER

As above, two deaths. Two. 

Maybe, but since people here like to post every incident of gun violence, here is some recent incidents of grenade violence in Sweden:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Sweden

2002-2012

• Four hand grenades exploded under cars in Gothenburg between 2002 and 2006 (one in 2002 and in 2004, and two in 2006). The attacks were linked to a local Bandidos group that was founded and led by Mehdi Seyyed.[22] Seyyed was sentenced to nine years in prison for the two attacks in 2006.[23]
• Two explosive attacks or attempts (one in 2011, one in 2008), were reported to be as a result of hand grenades, among 22 bomb attacks in Malmö between 2008 and 2011.[24]

2013

• 9 June, Malmö, a hand grenade exploded in a garbage shed on Ramels väg, damaging several cars.[14]
• 14 September, Malmö, two people were hospitalised after a hand grenade exploded at Köpmansgatan.[14]
• 9 November, Malmö, a device exploded in the stairwell of an assembly building in Norra Grängesbergsgatan.[25]

2014

• 26 January, Malmö, a hand grenade was thrown into the window of a family's home in Seved. Thought to have been thrown by the assailants into a mistaken apartment, the family of three were said by police to have likely survived only because the father managed to close the bedroom door in time.[14]
• 15 April, Malmö, a grenade exploded outside a restaurant in Adelgatan.[14]
• 6 May, Malmö, one man was severely injured after a grenade was thrown into his apartment on Estlandsgatan. The grenade was thought by police to have been thrown into a mistaken apartment by the assailants.[14]
• 19 May, Malmö, a grenade exploded in Seved damaging eight cars and several buildings.[14

PJPOWER

2016

In 2016 there were about almost 40 hand grenade attacks in Sweden.[43]

• 27 January, Landskrona, several cars were damaged and windows shattered after a hand grenade exploded in Tränggatan.[44][45]
• 12 February, Gothenburg, two grenades exploded within nine minutes in apartments in two different locations (Lunden and Angered).[46]
• 22 March, Uppsala, a hand grenade exploded after being thrown into an apartment balcony.[28]
• 28 March, Stockholm, two hand grenades exploded in central Stockholm, damaging the entrances and exterior of a nightclub and restaurants.[47]
• 6 April, Stockholm, a grenade exploded after being thrown into a restaurant in Jakobsberg.[48]
• 11 April, Uppsala, one man was hospitalised after a grenade he held exploded at a parking lot in Stenhagen.[28]
• 17 April, Landskrona, a hand grenade exploded after being thrown into an apartment, possibly against a casual target.[3][44]
• 18 May, Malmö, a hand grenade caused extensive damages after being thrown at a villa in Fosie, likely against a casual target.[3][44][49][50]
• 7 June, Botkyrka, a hand grenade exploded in central Fittja.[51]
• 7 June, Botkyrka, one man was wounded by shrapnel after a grenade exploded outside an office building in Slagsta.[52]
• 23 June, Tomelilla, a hand grenade exploded outside a villa.[44]
• 24 June, Uppsala, a hand grenade exploded in a pizza restaurant.[28]
• 9 July, Sollentuna, a grenade exploded while automatic weapons were fired in a residential area, amid four local shootouts in two days.[1][53][54]
• 12 July, Botkyrka, a grenade exploded after being thrown under a parked car in Tumba.[55]
• 28 July, Malmö, a hand grenade exploded in an apartment after several assailants had kicked in the door.[44]
• 22 August, Gothenburg, a hand grenade exploded in an apartment in Biskopsgården, killing an 8-year-old child Yuusuf Warsame from Birmingham, England. The attack was connected to an ongoing feud between members of Gothenburg’s Somali community,[56][57] as a person who was sentenced for the 2015 Gothenburg pub shooting is registered at the address.[58]
• 4 September, Gothenburg, one or two grenades exploded on the apartment balcony of an elderly disabled man, creating a hole and blasting out several windows. The grenade was thought by police to have been thrown indiscriminately at the apartment in a gang-area.[59][60]
• 23 October, Malmö, a hand grenade exploded nearby a garage and a car in Husie.[61]
• 28 October, Landskrona, a hand grenade exploded in a pizza restaurant.[62]
• 11 November, Malmö, a hand grenade exploded after being thrown at a car rental company, situated adjacent to a gas station.[63]
• 15 November, Västerås, a hand grenade exploded in a hair salon. The attack was thought to be part of extortion.[64]
• 21 November, Ängelholm, a grenade exploded near an apartment block, blasting out several windows.[65]
• 30 November, Solna, a hand grenade exploded after being thrown into an apartment balcony where a person was standing in the kitchen. The person got out of the apartment unharmed, while the balcony was wrecked and several windows were shattered. The event is linked to gang crime.[66]
• 15 December, Gothenburg, a hand grenade exploded causing damage to two apartments in Biskopsgården.[67]

PJPOWER

2017

• 1 January, Katrineholm, a grenade was thrown at the local police station. The entrance, several windows and three cars parked nearby were damaged.[68]
• 13 February, Södertälje, a hand grenade exploded in a residential area, where an entrepreneur who had recently been extorted had their offices.[69]
• 28 February, Malmö, one person was wounded by shrapnel and hospitalised after a grenade exploded outside a residence in Lindängen.[70]
• 11 April, Linköping, a hand grenade was thrown onto a balcony.[71]
• 7 July, Stockholm, a hand grenade exploded in a shop in a residential area in Spånga.[72]
• 21 July, Uppsala, a hand grenade exploded in a restaurant.[73]
• 23 July, Halmstad, a hand grenade exploded in a parking lot and damaged five cars.[74]
• 2 September, Märsta, a hand grenade exploded in a restaurant. No people were injured.[75]
• 6 September, Stockholm, a hand grenade exploded in a residential building in Östermalm.[76]
• 18 September, Gothenburg, a hand grenade exploded after being thrown at an apartment in Biskopsgården.[77]
• 28 September, Varberg, a hand grenade exploded damaging a villa in central Varberg.[78]
• 13 October, Malmö, a hand grenade exploded in a residential building.[79]
• 18 October, Helsingborg, a hand grenade destroyed the entrance of the local police station. Forty windows were blown out in the explosion.[80]
• 21 October, Stockholm, a hand grenade exploded by a car in central Solna.[81]
• 27 November, Uppsala, a hand grenade was thrown at a police car outside the local police station. No people were injured, but several cars were damaged in the explosion. One suspect was arrested.[82][83]
• 3 December, Gothenburg, a grenade exploded outside a family home in Hisingen.[84]

2018

• 7 January, Stockholm, a man in his 60s was killed and a 45-year-old woman was injured after a grenade exploded outside the Vårby gård metro station. The grenade which was accidentally picked up by the man had been abandoned at the side of the path.[85][86]
• 21 January, Gothenburg, a hand grenade exploded after being thrown through the window into a house in Biskopsgården in which seven people were present. The attack was linked to gang conflicts involving several grenade attacks between rival gangs in December the previous year.[87][88]
• 8 February, Stockholm, windows were blasted out and a car was damaged when a hand grenade exploded outside the home of a bank employee reported to be involved in uncovering fraud cases and assisting police in cases linked to heavy organised crime.[89]
• In August 2018, two men from Uppsala were arrested for having thrown grenades at the home of a bank employee who investigates fraud cases.[90]

Spiritual_Chaos

PJPOWER said:

2017

• 1 January, Katrineholm, a grenade was thrown at the local police station. The entrance, several windows and three cars parked nearby were damaged.[68]
• 13 February, Södertälje, a hand grenade exploded in a residential area, where an entrepreneur who had recently been extorted had their offices.[69]
• 28 February, Malmö, one person was wounded by shrapnel and hospitalised after a grenade exploded outside a residence in Lindängen.[70]
• 11 April, Linköping, a hand grenade was thrown onto a balcony.[71]
• 7 July, Stockholm, a hand grenade exploded in a shop in a residential area in Spånga.[72]
• 21 July, Uppsala, a hand grenade exploded in a restaurant.[73]
• 23 July, Halmstad, a hand grenade exploded in a parking lot and damaged five cars.[74]
• 2 September, Märsta, a hand grenade exploded in a restaurant. No people were injured.[75]
• 6 September, Stockholm, a hand grenade exploded in a residential building in Östermalm.[76]
• 18 September, Gothenburg, a hand grenade exploded after being thrown at an apartment in Biskopsgården.[77]
• 28 September, Varberg, a hand grenade exploded damaging a villa in central Varberg.[78]
• 13 October, Malmö, a hand grenade exploded in a residential building.[79]
• 18 October, Helsingborg, a hand grenade destroyed the entrance of the local police station. Forty windows were blown out in the explosion.[80]
• 21 October, Stockholm, a hand grenade exploded by a car in central Solna.[81]
• 27 November, Uppsala, a hand grenade was thrown at a police car outside the local police station. No people were injured, but several cars were damaged in the explosion. One suspect was arrested.[82][83]
• 3 December, Gothenburg, a grenade exploded outside a family home in Hisingen.[84]

2018

• 7 January, Stockholm, a man in his 60s was killed and a 45-year-old woman was injured after a grenade exploded outside the Vårby gård metro station. The grenade which was accidentally picked up by the man had been abandoned at the side of the path.[85][86]
• 21 January, Gothenburg, a hand grenade exploded after being thrown through the window into a house in Biskopsgården in which seven people were present. The attack was linked to gang conflicts involving several grenade attacks between rival gangs in December the previous year.[87][88]
• 8 February, Stockholm, windows were blasted out and a car was damaged when a hand grenade exploded outside the home of a bank employee reported to be involved in uncovering fraud cases and assisting police in cases linked to heavy organised crime.[89]
• In August 2018, two men from Uppsala were arrested for having thrown grenades at the home of a bank employee who investigates fraud cases.[90]

And do you think Sweden should try to fix that influx of hand grenades from the Balkans, or let hand grenades be free from regulations? have everyone run around with hand grenades in case the government turns on us?

PJPOWER

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

2017

• 1 January, Katrineholm, a grenade was thrown at the local police station. The entrance, several windows and three cars parked nearby were damaged.[68]
• 13 February, Södertälje, a hand grenade exploded in a residential area, where an entrepreneur who had recently been extorted had their offices.[69]
• 28 February, Malmö, one person was wounded by shrapnel and hospitalised after a grenade exploded outside a residence in Lindängen.[70]
• 11 April, Linköping, a hand grenade was thrown onto a balcony.[71]
• 7 July, Stockholm, a hand grenade exploded in a shop in a residential area in Spånga.[72]
• 21 July, Uppsala, a hand grenade exploded in a restaurant.[73]
• 23 July, Halmstad, a hand grenade exploded in a parking lot and damaged five cars.[74]
• 2 September, Märsta, a hand grenade exploded in a restaurant. No people were injured.[75]
• 6 September, Stockholm, a hand grenade exploded in a residential building in Östermalm.[76]
• 18 September, Gothenburg, a hand grenade exploded after being thrown at an apartment in Biskopsgården.[77]
• 28 September, Varberg, a hand grenade exploded damaging a villa in central Varberg.[78]
• 13 October, Malmö, a hand grenade exploded in a residential building.[79]
• 18 October, Helsingborg, a hand grenade destroyed the entrance of the local police station. Forty windows were blown out in the explosion.[80]
• 21 October, Stockholm, a hand grenade exploded by a car in central Solna.[81]
• 27 November, Uppsala, a hand grenade was thrown at a police car outside the local police station. No people were injured, but several cars were damaged in the explosion. One suspect was arrested.[82][83]
• 3 December, Gothenburg, a grenade exploded outside a family home in Hisingen.[84]

2018

• 7 January, Stockholm, a man in his 60s was killed and a 45-year-old woman was injured after a grenade exploded outside the Vårby gård metro station. The grenade which was accidentally picked up by the man had been abandoned at the side of the path.[85][86]
• 21 January, Gothenburg, a hand grenade exploded after being thrown through the window into a house in Biskopsgården in which seven people were present. The attack was linked to gang conflicts involving several grenade attacks between rival gangs in December the previous year.[87][88]
• 8 February, Stockholm, windows were blasted out and a car was damaged when a hand grenade exploded outside the home of a bank employee reported to be involved in uncovering fraud cases and assisting police in cases linked to heavy organised crime.[89]
• In August 2018, two men from Uppsala were arrested for having thrown grenades at the home of a bank employee who investigates fraud cases.[90]

And do you think Sweden should try to fix that influx of hand grenades from the Balkans, or let hand grenades be free from regulations?
 
It is not just hand grenades:
“For Swedes, this has become a familiar theme. Gun violence is on the rise, with daylight shootings and without regard for bystanders. In the past nine years, reported and attempted murders involving guns have almost doubled. According to Swedish police, hand-grenade attacks (which were virtually unknown until a few years ago) are without parallel in countries not at war.”
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/02/violent-crime-in-sweden-is-soaring-when-will-politicians-act/
Any cultural diversity links???  Sweden has been somewhat separated from the difficulties that cultural diversity brings...may be learning the hard way...

PJ_Soul

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

pjl44 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

How can guns be such a big thing for americans.... it's just... I mean... it's not the environment, health care, education... 

Everything you listed is a pretty big issue here. As far as guns go, it's one part sport and one part self defense. Fully automatic weapons have been outlawed and background check systems implemented - no one really bat an eye on that except the serious hardliners.

The reason there is so much debate recently is people keep pushing to ban stuff and aren't clear about what they're calling to ban. A "weapon of war" or "assault rifle" are general terms that you couldn't write into an actual law. I could show you two guns that work exactly the same mechanically - one would look like granpa's hunting rifle and the other would be super scary.

Without going on and on, the reason this persists is because it's really easy to have strong rhetoric on either side of the debate and really hard to write a law that will make any practical difference without seizing hundreds of millions of dollars of personal property. All in a time where our violent crime rate is at it's lowest point in 60 years.

Exactly, and if abortions and guns are “not that big of issues”, then why are they a couple of the major stances that O’Rourke is running on?  If the environment, teacher pay, etc are of more importance, why throw in what spiritual chaos described as meaningless issues that dissuade people from voting for you?  Maybe because they are HUGE issues with democrats right now?  Why is it cool for liberals to be so concerned about those things, but not conservatives?  If the environment and teacher pay are the main target of his agendas, then focusing on those and not focusing on hugely controversial issues (for Texans) might gain more bipartisan support.  

Because making it normal (as in, like most of the western world do it) instead of making it crazy like the right wants, is an issue. The issue is - making the state/country of yours sane.

“Normal”...Easy to say coming from a country with very little cultural diversity.

So?

You don’t think dealing with diversity creates unique challenges?

Not when it comes to abortion rights.

oftenreading

PJPOWER said:

2017

• 1 January, Katrineholm, a grenade was thrown at the local police station. The entrance, several windows and three cars parked nearby were damaged.[68]
• 13 February, Södertälje, a hand grenade exploded in a residential area, where an entrepreneur who had recently been extorted had their offices.[69]
• 28 February, Malmö, one person was wounded by shrapnel and hospitalised after a grenade exploded outside a residence in Lindängen.[70]
• 11 April, Linköping, a hand grenade was thrown onto a balcony.[71]
• 7 July, Stockholm, a hand grenade exploded in a shop in a residential area in Spånga.[72]
• 21 July, Uppsala, a hand grenade exploded in a restaurant.[73]
• 23 July, Halmstad, a hand grenade exploded in a parking lot and damaged five cars.[74]
• 2 September, Märsta, a hand grenade exploded in a restaurant. No people were injured.[75]
• 6 September, Stockholm, a hand grenade exploded in a residential building in Östermalm.[76]
• 18 September, Gothenburg, a hand grenade exploded after being thrown at an apartment in Biskopsgården.[77]
• 28 September, Varberg, a hand grenade exploded damaging a villa in central Varberg.[78]
• 13 October, Malmö, a hand grenade exploded in a residential building.[79]
• 18 October, Helsingborg, a hand grenade destroyed the entrance of the local police station. Forty windows were blown out in the explosion.[80]
• 21 October, Stockholm, a hand grenade exploded by a car in central Solna.[81]
• 27 November, Uppsala, a hand grenade was thrown at a police car outside the local police station. No people were injured, but several cars were damaged in the explosion. One suspect was arrested.[82][83]
• 3 December, Gothenburg, a grenade exploded outside a family home in Hisingen.[84]

2018

• 7 January, Stockholm, a man in his 60s was killed and a 45-year-old woman was injured after a grenade exploded outside the Vårby gård metro station. The grenade which was accidentally picked up by the man had been abandoned at the side of the path.[85][86]
• 21 January, Gothenburg, a hand grenade exploded after being thrown through the window into a house in Biskopsgården in which seven people were present. The attack was linked to gang conflicts involving several grenade attacks between rival gangs in December the previous year.[87][88]
• 8 February, Stockholm, windows were blasted out and a car was damaged when a hand grenade exploded outside the home of a bank employee reported to be involved in uncovering fraud cases and assisting police in cases linked to heavy organised crime.[89]
• In August 2018, two men from Uppsala were arrested for having thrown grenades at the home of a bank employee who investigates fraud cases.[90]

Shall we post the Wikipedia article detailing every incident of gun violence in the USA over the past twenty years? It will be rather large.

You said grenade deaths, but apparently didn’t realize there were only two, so had to post some reply I guess. 

Sure, ideally there would be none. When we reach that crime-free nirvana I’m sure we’ll all enjoy it. In the meantime, no one expects crime to be zero; we just expect that it will be dealt with in a reasonable fashion with reasonable laws. 

And violent crime is still far lower in Sweden, so not sure where this little diversion got us. 

Spiritual_Chaos

PJPOWER said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

2017

• 1 January, Katrineholm, a grenade was thrown at the local police station. The entrance, several windows and three cars parked nearby were damaged.[68]
• 13 February, Södertälje, a hand grenade exploded in a residential area, where an entrepreneur who had recently been extorted had their offices.[69]
• 28 February, Malmö, one person was wounded by shrapnel and hospitalised after a grenade exploded outside a residence in Lindängen.[70]
• 11 April, Linköping, a hand grenade was thrown onto a balcony.[71]
• 7 July, Stockholm, a hand grenade exploded in a shop in a residential area in Spånga.[72]
• 21 July, Uppsala, a hand grenade exploded in a restaurant.[73]
• 23 July, Halmstad, a hand grenade exploded in a parking lot and damaged five cars.[74]
• 2 September, Märsta, a hand grenade exploded in a restaurant. No people were injured.[75]
• 6 September, Stockholm, a hand grenade exploded in a residential building in Östermalm.[76]
• 18 September, Gothenburg, a hand grenade exploded after being thrown at an apartment in Biskopsgården.[77]
• 28 September, Varberg, a hand grenade exploded damaging a villa in central Varberg.[78]
• 13 October, Malmö, a hand grenade exploded in a residential building.[79]
• 18 October, Helsingborg, a hand grenade destroyed the entrance of the local police station. Forty windows were blown out in the explosion.[80]
• 21 October, Stockholm, a hand grenade exploded by a car in central Solna.[81]
• 27 November, Uppsala, a hand grenade was thrown at a police car outside the local police station. No people were injured, but several cars were damaged in the explosion. One suspect was arrested.[82][83]
• 3 December, Gothenburg, a grenade exploded outside a family home in Hisingen.[84]

2018

• 7 January, Stockholm, a man in his 60s was killed and a 45-year-old woman was injured after a grenade exploded outside the Vårby gård metro station. The grenade which was accidentally picked up by the man had been abandoned at the side of the path.[85][86]
• 21 January, Gothenburg, a hand grenade exploded after being thrown through the window into a house in Biskopsgården in which seven people were present. The attack was linked to gang conflicts involving several grenade attacks between rival gangs in December the previous year.[87][88]
• 8 February, Stockholm, windows were blasted out and a car was damaged when a hand grenade exploded outside the home of a bank employee reported to be involved in uncovering fraud cases and assisting police in cases linked to heavy organised crime.[89]
• In August 2018, two men from Uppsala were arrested for having thrown grenades at the home of a bank employee who investigates fraud cases.[90]

And do you think Sweden should try to fix that influx of hand grenades from the Balkans, or let hand grenades be free from regulations?

 
It is not just hand grenades:
“For Swedes, this has become a familiar theme. Gun violence is on the rise, with daylight shootings and without regard for bystanders. In the past nine years, reported and attempted murders involving guns have almost doubled. According to Swedish police, hand-grenade attacks (which were virtually unknown until a few years ago) are without parallel in countries not at war.”
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/02/violent-crime-in-sweden-is-soaring-when-will-politicians-act/
Any cultural diversity links???  Sweden has been somewhat separated from the difficulties that cultural diversity brings...may be learning the hard way...


 But what has this to do with abortions or gun laws?

PJPOWER

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

pjl44 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

How can guns be such a big thing for americans.... it's just... I mean... it's not the environment, health care, education... 

Everything you listed is a pretty big issue here. As far as guns go, it's one part sport and one part self defense. Fully automatic weapons have been outlawed and background check systems implemented - no one really bat an eye on that except the serious hardliners.

The reason there is so much debate recently is people keep pushing to ban stuff and aren't clear about what they're calling to ban. A "weapon of war" or "assault rifle" are general terms that you couldn't write into an actual law. I could show you two guns that work exactly the same mechanically - one would look like granpa's hunting rifle and the other would be super scary.

Without going on and on, the reason this persists is because it's really easy to have strong rhetoric on either side of the debate and really hard to write a law that will make any practical difference without seizing hundreds of millions of dollars of personal property. All in a time where our violent crime rate is at it's lowest point in 60 years.

Exactly, and if abortions and guns are “not that big of issues”, then why are they a couple of the major stances that O’Rourke is running on?  If the environment, teacher pay, etc are of more importance, why throw in what spiritual chaos described as meaningless issues that dissuade people from voting for you?  Maybe because they are HUGE issues with democrats right now?  Why is it cool for liberals to be so concerned about those things, but not conservatives?  If the environment and teacher pay are the main target of his agendas, then focusing on those and not focusing on hugely controversial issues (for Texans) might gain more bipartisan support.  

Because making it normal (as in, like most of the western world do it) instead of making it crazy like the right wants, is an issue. The issue is - making the state/country of yours sane.

“Normal”...Easy to say coming from a country with very little cultural diversity.

So?

You don’t think dealing with diversity creates unique challenges?

Not when it comes to abortion rights.

No?  Many cultures have different views of abortion that probably effects how they vote.

Spiritual_Chaos

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

pjl44 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

How can guns be such a big thing for americans.... it's just... I mean... it's not the environment, health care, education... 

Everything you listed is a pretty big issue here. As far as guns go, it's one part sport and one part self defense. Fully automatic weapons have been outlawed and background check systems implemented - no one really bat an eye on that except the serious hardliners.

The reason there is so much debate recently is people keep pushing to ban stuff and aren't clear about what they're calling to ban. A "weapon of war" or "assault rifle" are general terms that you couldn't write into an actual law. I could show you two guns that work exactly the same mechanically - one would look like granpa's hunting rifle and the other would be super scary.

Without going on and on, the reason this persists is because it's really easy to have strong rhetoric on either side of the debate and really hard to write a law that will make any practical difference without seizing hundreds of millions of dollars of personal property. All in a time where our violent crime rate is at it's lowest point in 60 years.

Exactly, and if abortions and guns are “not that big of issues”, then why are they a couple of the major stances that O’Rourke is running on?  If the environment, teacher pay, etc are of more importance, why throw in what spiritual chaos described as meaningless issues that dissuade people from voting for you?  Maybe because they are HUGE issues with democrats right now?  Why is it cool for liberals to be so concerned about those things, but not conservatives?  If the environment and teacher pay are the main target of his agendas, then focusing on those and not focusing on hugely controversial issues (for Texans) might gain more bipartisan support.  

Because making it normal (as in, like most of the western world do it) instead of making it crazy like the right wants, is an issue. The issue is - making the state/country of yours sane.

“Normal”...Easy to say coming from a country with very little cultural diversity.

So?

You don’t think dealing with diversity creates unique challenges?

Not when it comes to abortion rights.

No?  Many cultures have different views of abortion that probably effects how they vote.

So are you saying hand grenades will make Swedes start to remove the right to abortion? Or that it suddenly becomes this one important question making up our "culture"?

Halifax2TheMax

PJPOWER said:

As above, two deaths. Two. 

Maybe, but since people here like to post every incident of gun violence, here is some recent incidents of grenade violence in Sweden:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Sweden

2002-2012

• Four hand grenades exploded under cars in Gothenburg between 2002 and 2006 (one in 2002 and in 2004, and two in 2006). The attacks were linked to a local Bandidos group that was founded and led by Mehdi Seyyed.[22] Seyyed was sentenced to nine years in prison for the two attacks in 2006.[23]
• Two explosive attacks or attempts (one in 2011, one in 2008), were reported to be as a result of hand grenades, among 22 bomb attacks in Malmö between 2008 and 2011.[24]

2013

• 9 June, Malmö, a hand grenade exploded in a garbage shed on Ramels väg, damaging several cars.[14]
• 14 September, Malmö, two people were hospitalised after a hand grenade exploded at Köpmansgatan.[14]
• 9 November, Malmö, a device exploded in the stairwell of an assembly building in Norra Grängesbergsgatan.[25]

2014

• 26 January, Malmö, a hand grenade was thrown into the window of a family's home in Seved. Thought to have been thrown by the assailants into a mistaken apartment, the family of three were said by police to have likely survived only because the father managed to close the bedroom door in time.[14]
• 15 April, Malmö, a grenade exploded outside a restaurant in Adelgatan.[14]
• 6 May, Malmö, one man was severely injured after a grenade was thrown into his apartment on Estlandsgatan. The grenade was thought by police to have been thrown into a mistaken apartment by the assailants.[14]
• 19 May, Malmö, a grenade exploded in Seved damaging eight cars and several buildings.[14

Every incident? Nobody got time for that. But these folks do. Just the last 72 hours. Includes deaths too.

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/last-72-hours
 

PJPOWER

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

pjl44 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

How can guns be such a big thing for americans.... it's just... I mean... it's not the environment, health care, education... 

Everything you listed is a pretty big issue here. As far as guns go, it's one part sport and one part self defense. Fully automatic weapons have been outlawed and background check systems implemented - no one really bat an eye on that except the serious hardliners.

The reason there is so much debate recently is people keep pushing to ban stuff and aren't clear about what they're calling to ban. A "weapon of war" or "assault rifle" are general terms that you couldn't write into an actual law. I could show you two guns that work exactly the same mechanically - one would look like granpa's hunting rifle and the other would be super scary.

Without going on and on, the reason this persists is because it's really easy to have strong rhetoric on either side of the debate and really hard to write a law that will make any practical difference without seizing hundreds of millions of dollars of personal property. All in a time where our violent crime rate is at it's lowest point in 60 years.

Exactly, and if abortions and guns are “not that big of issues”, then why are they a couple of the major stances that O’Rourke is running on?  If the environment, teacher pay, etc are of more importance, why throw in what spiritual chaos described as meaningless issues that dissuade people from voting for you?  Maybe because they are HUGE issues with democrats right now?  Why is it cool for liberals to be so concerned about those things, but not conservatives?  If the environment and teacher pay are the main target of his agendas, then focusing on those and not focusing on hugely controversial issues (for Texans) might gain more bipartisan support.  

Because making it normal (as in, like most of the western world do it) instead of making it crazy like the right wants, is an issue. The issue is - making the state/country of yours sane.

“Normal”...Easy to say coming from a country with very little cultural diversity.

So?

You don’t think dealing with diversity creates unique challenges?

Not when it comes to abortion rights.

No?  Many cultures have different views of abortion that probably effects how they vote.

So are you saying hand grenades will make Swedes start to remove the right to abortion?

If you think that is what I am saying...then you have trouble reading.  Cultural diversity could effect abortion laws if there is an influx in immigrants that vote and do not like it.

PJ_Soul

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

pjl44 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

How can guns be such a big thing for americans.... it's just... I mean... it's not the environment, health care, education... 

Everything you listed is a pretty big issue here. As far as guns go, it's one part sport and one part self defense. Fully automatic weapons have been outlawed and background check systems implemented - no one really bat an eye on that except the serious hardliners.

The reason there is so much debate recently is people keep pushing to ban stuff and aren't clear about what they're calling to ban. A "weapon of war" or "assault rifle" are general terms that you couldn't write into an actual law. I could show you two guns that work exactly the same mechanically - one would look like granpa's hunting rifle and the other would be super scary.

Without going on and on, the reason this persists is because it's really easy to have strong rhetoric on either side of the debate and really hard to write a law that will make any practical difference without seizing hundreds of millions of dollars of personal property. All in a time where our violent crime rate is at it's lowest point in 60 years.

Exactly, and if abortions and guns are “not that big of issues”, then why are they a couple of the major stances that O’Rourke is running on?  If the environment, teacher pay, etc are of more importance, why throw in what spiritual chaos described as meaningless issues that dissuade people from voting for you?  Maybe because they are HUGE issues with democrats right now?  Why is it cool for liberals to be so concerned about those things, but not conservatives?  If the environment and teacher pay are the main target of his agendas, then focusing on those and not focusing on hugely controversial issues (for Texans) might gain more bipartisan support.  

Because making it normal (as in, like most of the western world do it) instead of making it crazy like the right wants, is an issue. The issue is - making the state/country of yours sane.

“Normal”...Easy to say coming from a country with very little cultural diversity.

So?

You don’t think dealing with diversity creates unique challenges?

Not when it comes to abortion rights.

No?  Many cultures have different views of abortion that probably effects how they vote.

What I mean is that it shouldn't be a matter that people are voting about at all - I'm talking about what makes sense, not about what American politicians and voters actually do, because those two things are pretty much mutually exclusive at the moment.

The fact that abortion is even up for debate in American politics simply shows that America doesn't actually give a flying fuck about human and individual rights even though the Constitution makes it clear that is should. When it comes to human rights, how many people support a right should be completely irrelevant. It shouldn't matter if a politician is against it or not. That fact that so many politicians keep trotting it out as a controversial issue only highlights how messed up America is right now in that context.

Spiritual_Chaos

PJPOWER said:

2017

• 1 January, Katrineholm, a grenade was thrown at the local police station. The entrance, several windows and three cars parked nearby were damaged.[68]
• 13 February, Södertälje, a hand grenade exploded in a residential area, where an entrepreneur who had recently been extorted had their offices.[69]
• 28 February, Malmö, one person was wounded by shrapnel and hospitalised after a grenade exploded outside a residence in Lindängen.[70]
• 11 April, Linköping, a hand grenade was thrown onto a balcony.[71]
• 7 July, Stockholm, a hand grenade exploded in a shop in a residential area in Spånga.[72]
• 21 July, Uppsala, a hand grenade exploded in a restaurant.[73]
• 23 July, Halmstad, a hand grenade exploded in a parking lot and damaged five cars.[74]
• 2 September, Märsta, a hand grenade exploded in a restaurant. No people were injured.[75]
• 6 September, Stockholm, a hand grenade exploded in a residential building in Östermalm.[76]
• 18 September, Gothenburg, a hand grenade exploded after being thrown at an apartment in Biskopsgården.[77]
• 28 September, Varberg, a hand grenade exploded damaging a villa in central Varberg.[78]
• 13 October, Malmö, a hand grenade exploded in a residential building.[79]
• 18 October, Helsingborg, a hand grenade destroyed the entrance of the local police station. Forty windows were blown out in the explosion.[80]
• 21 October, Stockholm, a hand grenade exploded by a car in central Solna.[81]
• 27 November, Uppsala, a hand grenade was thrown at a police car outside the local police station. No people were injured, but several cars were damaged in the explosion. One suspect was arrested.[82][83]
• 3 December, Gothenburg, a grenade exploded outside a family home in Hisingen.[84]

2018

• 7 January, Stockholm, a man in his 60s was killed and a 45-year-old woman was injured after a grenade exploded outside the Vårby gård metro station. The grenade which was accidentally picked up by the man had been abandoned at the side of the path.[85][86]
• 21 January, Gothenburg, a hand grenade exploded after being thrown through the window into a house in Biskopsgården in which seven people were present. The attack was linked to gang conflicts involving several grenade attacks between rival gangs in December the previous year.[87][88]
• 8 February, Stockholm, windows were blasted out and a car was damaged when a hand grenade exploded outside the home of a bank employee reported to be involved in uncovering fraud cases and assisting police in cases linked to heavy organised crime.[89]
• In August 2018, two men from Uppsala were arrested for having thrown grenades at the home of a bank employee who investigates fraud cases.[90]

"The laws were previously a problem, but there has recently been a change, and while hand grenades are still not classified as weapons covered by the weapons laws, and are covered by the laws on flammable and explosive items, the sentencing-scale for possession has increased. So it's just as serious now as it is for those in possession of illegal weapons. There's no difference – they're covered by different laws but it's the same punishment. That law change has helped a lot," says Staaf.

So, Sweden are changing its laws to stop a problem.

So then, maybe the US should change its laws to stop a problem.

And while texans are going crazey about their guns (and abortions) - people in sweden aren't going crazey over handgrenades. Or guns. or abortions.

PJPOWER

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

2017

• 1 January, Katrineholm, a grenade was thrown at the local police station. The entrance, several windows and three cars parked nearby were damaged.[68]
• 13 February, Södertälje, a hand grenade exploded in a residential area, where an entrepreneur who had recently been extorted had their offices.[69]
• 28 February, Malmö, one person was wounded by shrapnel and hospitalised after a grenade exploded outside a residence in Lindängen.[70]
• 11 April, Linköping, a hand grenade was thrown onto a balcony.[71]
• 7 July, Stockholm, a hand grenade exploded in a shop in a residential area in Spånga.[72]
• 21 July, Uppsala, a hand grenade exploded in a restaurant.[73]
• 23 July, Halmstad, a hand grenade exploded in a parking lot and damaged five cars.[74]
• 2 September, Märsta, a hand grenade exploded in a restaurant. No people were injured.[75]
• 6 September, Stockholm, a hand grenade exploded in a residential building in Östermalm.[76]
• 18 September, Gothenburg, a hand grenade exploded after being thrown at an apartment in Biskopsgården.[77]
• 28 September, Varberg, a hand grenade exploded damaging a villa in central Varberg.[78]
• 13 October, Malmö, a hand grenade exploded in a residential building.[79]
• 18 October, Helsingborg, a hand grenade destroyed the entrance of the local police station. Forty windows were blown out in the explosion.[80]
• 21 October, Stockholm, a hand grenade exploded by a car in central Solna.[81]
• 27 November, Uppsala, a hand grenade was thrown at a police car outside the local police station. No people were injured, but several cars were damaged in the explosion. One suspect was arrested.[82][83]
• 3 December, Gothenburg, a grenade exploded outside a family home in Hisingen.[84]

2018

• 7 January, Stockholm, a man in his 60s was killed and a 45-year-old woman was injured after a grenade exploded outside the Vårby gård metro station. The grenade which was accidentally picked up by the man had been abandoned at the side of the path.[85][86]
• 21 January, Gothenburg, a hand grenade exploded after being thrown through the window into a house in Biskopsgården in which seven people were present. The attack was linked to gang conflicts involving several grenade attacks between rival gangs in December the previous year.[87][88]
• 8 February, Stockholm, windows were blasted out and a car was damaged when a hand grenade exploded outside the home of a bank employee reported to be involved in uncovering fraud cases and assisting police in cases linked to heavy organised crime.[89]
• In August 2018, two men from Uppsala were arrested for having thrown grenades at the home of a bank employee who investigates fraud cases.[90]

"The laws were previously a problem, but there has recently been a change, and while hand grenades are still not classified as weapons covered by the weapons laws, and are covered by the laws on flammable and explosive items, the sentencing-scale for possession has increased. So it's just as serious now as it is for those in possession of illegal weapons. There's no difference – they're covered by different laws but it's the same punishment. That law change has helped a lot," says Staaf.

So, Sweden are changing its laws to stop a problem.

So then, maybe the US should change its laws to stop a problem.

And while texans are going crazey about their guns (and abortions) - people in sweden aren't going crazey over handgrenades. Or guns. or abortions.
 

No one is going crazy over them, but those topics do tend to effect the way people vote.  And there are a lot of firearm restrictions, even in TX, but the issue is that people (voters) have different opinions on what regulations would actually curb gun violence or violence of any kind for that matter in a society as uniquely diverse as in the US.
Anyways, can we concede that Texas is far different than Sweden and the same tactics that work in Sweden may not have the same results in Texas?

cincybearcat

PJ_Soul said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

pjl44 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

How can guns be such a big thing for americans.... it's just... I mean... it's not the environment, health care, education... 

Everything you listed is a pretty big issue here. As far as guns go, it's one part sport and one part self defense. Fully automatic weapons have been outlawed and background check systems implemented - no one really bat an eye on that except the serious hardliners.

The reason there is so much debate recently is people keep pushing to ban stuff and aren't clear about what they're calling to ban. A "weapon of war" or "assault rifle" are general terms that you couldn't write into an actual law. I could show you two guns that work exactly the same mechanically - one would look like granpa's hunting rifle and the other would be super scary.

Without going on and on, the reason this persists is because it's really easy to have strong rhetoric on either side of the debate and really hard to write a law that will make any practical difference without seizing hundreds of millions of dollars of personal property. All in a time where our violent crime rate is at it's lowest point in 60 years.

Exactly, and if abortions and guns are “not that big of issues”, then why are they a couple of the major stances that O’Rourke is running on?  If the environment, teacher pay, etc are of more importance, why throw in what spiritual chaos described as meaningless issues that dissuade people from voting for you?  Maybe because they are HUGE issues with democrats right now?  Why is it cool for liberals to be so concerned about those things, but not conservatives?  If the environment and teacher pay are the main target of his agendas, then focusing on those and not focusing on hugely controversial issues (for Texans) might gain more bipartisan support.  

Because making it normal (as in, like most of the western world do it) instead of making it crazy like the right wants, is an issue. The issue is - making the state/country of yours sane.

“Normal”...Easy to say coming from a country with very little cultural diversity.

So?

You don’t think dealing with diversity creates unique challenges?

Not when it comes to abortion rights.

No?  Many cultures have different views of abortion that probably effects how they vote.

What I mean is that it shouldn't be a matter that people are voting about at all - I'm talking about what makes sense, not about what American politicians and voters actually do, because those two things are pretty much mutually exclusive at the moment.

The fact that abortion is even up for debate in American politics simply shows that America doesn't actually give a flying fuck about human and individual rights even though the Constitution makes it clear that is should. When it comes to human rights, how many people support a right should be completely irrelevant. It shouldn't matter if a politician is against it or not. That fact that so many politicians keep trotting it out as a controversial issue only highlights how messed up America is right now in that context.

So you are saying that every place should line up with what you think or they are wrong.  Got it.

Abortion is a human rights issue...but many think it's a womens rights issue.

PJ_Soul

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

pjl44 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

How can guns be such a big thing for americans.... it's just... I mean... it's not the environment, health care, education... 

Everything you listed is a pretty big issue here. As far as guns go, it's one part sport and one part self defense. Fully automatic weapons have been outlawed and background check systems implemented - no one really bat an eye on that except the serious hardliners.

The reason there is so much debate recently is people keep pushing to ban stuff and aren't clear about what they're calling to ban. A "weapon of war" or "assault rifle" are general terms that you couldn't write into an actual law. I could show you two guns that work exactly the same mechanically - one would look like granpa's hunting rifle and the other would be super scary.

Without going on and on, the reason this persists is because it's really easy to have strong rhetoric on either side of the debate and really hard to write a law that will make any practical difference without seizing hundreds of millions of dollars of personal property. All in a time where our violent crime rate is at it's lowest point in 60 years.

Exactly, and if abortions and guns are “not that big of issues”, then why are they a couple of the major stances that O’Rourke is running on?  If the environment, teacher pay, etc are of more importance, why throw in what spiritual chaos described as meaningless issues that dissuade people from voting for you?  Maybe because they are HUGE issues with democrats right now?  Why is it cool for liberals to be so concerned about those things, but not conservatives?  If the environment and teacher pay are the main target of his agendas, then focusing on those and not focusing on hugely controversial issues (for Texans) might gain more bipartisan support.  

Because making it normal (as in, like most of the western world do it) instead of making it crazy like the right wants, is an issue. The issue is - making the state/country of yours sane.

“Normal”...Easy to say coming from a country with very little cultural diversity.

So?

You don’t think dealing with diversity creates unique challenges?

Not when it comes to abortion rights.

No?  Many cultures have different views of abortion that probably effects how they vote.

What I mean is that it shouldn't be a matter that people are voting about at all - I'm talking about what makes sense, not about what American politicians and voters actually do, because those two things are pretty much mutually exclusive at the moment.

The fact that abortion is even up for debate in American politics simply shows that America doesn't actually give a flying fuck about human and individual rights even though the Constitution makes it clear that is should. When it comes to human rights, how many people support a right should be completely irrelevant. It shouldn't matter if a politician is against it or not. That fact that so many politicians keep trotting it out as a controversial issue only highlights how messed up America is right now in that context.

So you are saying that every place should line up with what you think or they are wrong.  Got it.

Abortion is a human rights issue...but many think it's a womens rights issue.

Women rights issues are human rights issues.

And no, I'm saying that what you think or what I think is irrelevant. Opinions in general should be irrelevant in this context, according to America's constitution. Opinions about it should be irrelevant in the SCOTUS too.

cincybearcat

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

pjl44 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

How can guns be such a big thing for americans.... it's just... I mean... it's not the environment, health care, education... 

Everything you listed is a pretty big issue here. As far as guns go, it's one part sport and one part self defense. Fully automatic weapons have been outlawed and background check systems implemented - no one really bat an eye on that except the serious hardliners.

The reason there is so much debate recently is people keep pushing to ban stuff and aren't clear about what they're calling to ban. A "weapon of war" or "assault rifle" are general terms that you couldn't write into an actual law. I could show you two guns that work exactly the same mechanically - one would look like granpa's hunting rifle and the other would be super scary.

Without going on and on, the reason this persists is because it's really easy to have strong rhetoric on either side of the debate and really hard to write a law that will make any practical difference without seizing hundreds of millions of dollars of personal property. All in a time where our violent crime rate is at it's lowest point in 60 years.

Exactly, and if abortions and guns are “not that big of issues”, then why are they a couple of the major stances that O’Rourke is running on?  If the environment, teacher pay, etc are of more importance, why throw in what spiritual chaos described as meaningless issues that dissuade people from voting for you?  Maybe because they are HUGE issues with democrats right now?  Why is it cool for liberals to be so concerned about those things, but not conservatives?  If the environment and teacher pay are the main target of his agendas, then focusing on those and not focusing on hugely controversial issues (for Texans) might gain more bipartisan support.  

Because making it normal (as in, like most of the western world do it) instead of making it crazy like the right wants, is an issue. The issue is - making the state/country of yours sane.

“Normal”...Easy to say coming from a country with very little cultural diversity.

So?

You don’t think dealing with diversity creates unique challenges?

Not when it comes to abortion rights.

No?  Many cultures have different views of abortion that probably effects how they vote.

What I mean is that it shouldn't be a matter that people are voting about at all - I'm talking about what makes sense, not about what American politicians and voters actually do, because those two things are pretty much mutually exclusive at the moment.

The fact that abortion is even up for debate in American politics simply shows that America doesn't actually give a flying fuck about human and individual rights even though the Constitution makes it clear that is should. When it comes to human rights, how many people support a right should be completely irrelevant. It shouldn't matter if a politician is against it or not. That fact that so many politicians keep trotting it out as a controversial issue only highlights how messed up America is right now in that context.

So you are saying that every place should line up with what you think or they are wrong.  Got it.

Abortion is a human rights issue...but many think it's a womens rights issue.

Women rights issues are human rights issues.

And no, I'm saying that what you think or what I think is irrelevant. Opinions in general should be irrelevant in this context, according to America's constitution. Opinions about it should be irrelevant in the SCOTUS too.

Hmmmm. Well I should type women’s reproductive rights. 

But i I think I see your point. Although in a republic with elected officials and only a framework established, in not sure I agree that opinions don’t matter. But I’ll have to think on that more. Interesting