Missoula poster

145791014

Comments

  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 11,811
    BS44325 said:
    rgambs said:
    Is dragon energy the same as very stable genius?
    Because Kanye and Trump are definitely known for their stability lol
    Dragon energy is the life blood of the "doer". It is present all over the Kanye albums that were released in June. It's what was missing from the Missoula show.
    Better stop going to PJ shows and start going to watch Kanye lip synch then.  Don't waste good music, if you want nonsense leave the tickets for someone who wants a good show.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • dignindignin Posts: 6,923
    BS44325 said:
    dignin said:
    BS44325 said:
    dignin said:

    Wow, he really went after Kanye's free speech.


    https://www.nme.com/news/music/pearl-jam-jeff-ament-interview-trump-kanye-west-2307764


    What do you think of someone like Kanye West recently coming out in support of Trump?

    “I love Kanye, I saw the last Kanye tour and I thought it was one of the greatest things ever, but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way. I think he’s just, you know, with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt. He’s been out of the news for a few months, so I think he’s looking to generate some. He says something about dragons, I don’t know, dragon energy, whatever that is.”

    Does this affect your enjoyment of his music?

    “I have a hard time separating the art from the artist. There’s certain artists where I don’t read their interviews because it really affects me enjoying their music. I wish I hadn’t opened that text that had the article about dragon energy and Donald Trump. It’s unfortunate.”




    Exactly. "...with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt." Way to defend a fellow artist. "Love Kanye...but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way." Pathetic if you ask me.
    Explain what this has to do with free speech, other than Jeff exercising his?
    You all keep saying that you can do "nuance"...but I wonder. Yes it is Jeff exercising his speech. He is entitled. He is not required to say anything. What I am suggesting with my speech is that these words from an artist who strongly believes in artistic freedom are frankly pathetic. A true believer in artistic freedom would have made a point of saying that "Even though I disagree...Kanye is a unique individual which is what makes his music great...which is why I love him in the first place...it's what makes Ye Ye." Jeff didn't do that. He questioned Kanye's integrity. An artist who takes controversial stances shouldn't do that to another artist who takes opposite controversial stances. They should embrace each other. They should support each other. It's artistic freedom that is at stake.
    Jeff said he loves Kanye's art. He doesn't like his opinions....that's not art. Your point has nothing to do with art. You are seriously going to try and argue that opinion is now art? 

    This has nothing to do with nuance, you are way out in foul territory here. Admit you have no point and try to argue a different point that makes some kind of sense.
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 18,949
    Next thing you know, he'll want Jeff to embrace Ted Nugent, as an artist.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 18,949
    BS44325 said:
    BS44325 said:
    dignin said:

    Wow, he really went after Kanye's free speech.


    https://www.nme.com/news/music/pearl-jam-jeff-ament-interview-trump-kanye-west-2307764


    What do you think of someone like Kanye West recently coming out in support of Trump?

    “I love Kanye, I saw the last Kanye tour and I thought it was one of the greatest things ever, but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way. I think he’s just, you know, with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt. He’s been out of the news for a few months, so I think he’s looking to generate some. He says something about dragons, I don’t know, dragon energy, whatever that is.”

    Does this affect your enjoyment of his music?

    “I have a hard time separating the art from the artist. There’s certain artists where I don’t read their interviews because it really affects me enjoying their music. I wish I hadn’t opened that text that had the article about dragon energy and Donald Trump. It’s unfortunate.”




    Exactly. "...with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt." Way to defend a fellow artist. "Love Kanye...but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way." Pathetic if you ask me.
    Which part of “slavery was a choice,” do you disagree with?
    Definitely not this part...

    "Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery
    None but ourselves can free our minds"
    Deep, real deep.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 10,985
    BS44325 said:
    rgambs said:
    Is dragon energy the same as very stable genius?
    Because Kanye and Trump are definitely known for their stability lol
    Dragon energy is the life blood of the "doer". It is present all over the Kanye albums that were released in June. It's what was missing from the Missoula show.
    There was nothing wrong with the band's energy at Missoula.  I wasn't a fan of the set list, but they were on point.  It appealed to the casual fan.  
  • vaggar99vaggar99 San Diego USAPosts: 3,075
    i agree with the person who said its just another ugly poster.  
  • HesCalledDyerHesCalledDyer MarylandPosts: 13,599
    Next thing you know, he'll want Jeff to embrace Ted Nugent, as an artist.
    Just reach for the Baltimore bootleg.  Ed mentions the ghost of Ted Nugent.  OMG the shock, the horror. We must denounce this act of violence that suggests Ted Nugent is dead and his ghost was haunting the arena. :lol:
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 5,822
    PJ_Soul said:
    dignin said:
    BS44325 said:
    dignin said:

    Wow, he really went after Kanye's free speech.


    https://www.nme.com/news/music/pearl-jam-jeff-ament-interview-trump-kanye-west-2307764


    What do you think of someone like Kanye West recently coming out in support of Trump?

    “I love Kanye, I saw the last Kanye tour and I thought it was one of the greatest things ever, but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way. I think he’s just, you know, with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt. He’s been out of the news for a few months, so I think he’s looking to generate some. He says something about dragons, I don’t know, dragon energy, whatever that is.”

    Does this affect your enjoyment of his music?

    “I have a hard time separating the art from the artist. There’s certain artists where I don’t read their interviews because it really affects me enjoying their music. I wish I hadn’t opened that text that had the article about dragon energy and Donald Trump. It’s unfortunate.”




    Exactly. "...with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt." Way to defend a fellow artist. "Love Kanye...but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way." Pathetic if you ask me.
    Explain what this has to do with free speech, other than Jeff exercising his?
    Yeah, I'm not clear on what you're really trying to get at either BS. I don't understand what it is you have a problem with. Are you saying that you think Jeff should not have an opinion about something stupid that Kanye said? Or are you saying he has to like all artists even when they are idiots, or not criticize artists when they say or do something he thinks sucks? I can't quite figure this out, knowing that you do support free speech. I dunno, do you think that there is something wrong with people not separating art from the artist maybe??
    It's a bit of the last point but mainly it is my concern about the "stifling of speech" culture that is spreading all around us like a weed. It is a culture that is happening on both sides. I hated it when conservatives wanted to boycott the dixie chicks and I hated it when liberals wanted to boycott kanye (this was a real suggestion in the hip hop community and amongst urban radio). I hate that this poster is in the fucking news at all...who the fuck cares?!  Free speech is under assault everywhere. Comedy is under assault. Artistic expression is under assault. I am ok with Jeff criticizing Kanye but I am disappointed that he couldn't at least throw the slightest bone to the idea of Kanye's artistic freedom and how it makes him the artist that he is. It wasn't Jeff's direct responsibility to do this but it was a missed opportunity from a band that I know deep down believes in artistic freedom. Like Jeff says...these are troubled times...and during these troubled times opportunities to defend speech should not be missed.
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 5,822
    BS44325 said:
    BS44325 said:
    BS44325 said:
    dignin said:
     "Love, from the First Amendment, Jeff Ament."

    Fuck yeah.
    Jeff sounds like Kanye. Too bad he didn’t have the balls to defend Kanye’s right to free speech in his magazine interview and instead slagged him for supporting Trump. Jeff didn’t get “dragon energy” and the Missoula concert proved it.
    Or maybe you were upset about Planned Parenthood being there. 
    I couldn't care a less
    You cared enough to mention it in the other thread. 
    Really? You are going to purposely choose to manipulate what I said? Why? Clearly it is intentional. Some of you are really interesting cats. 
    You brought up Planned Parenthood. I’m suggesting that may have effected your reaction to the show rather than vague references to tiger energy or whatever the heck. 
    I didn't just "bring up Planned Parenthood" you liar. I am effectively pro choice and don't have a feeling towards Planned Parenthood one way or another. What I said is that there could be "others" who might not want their money going to a Planned Parenthood associated event. In a state like Montana that is within the realm of possibilities. And it's "Dragon Energy" for F sakes which is different then "Tiger Blood"! What kind of moron confuses his Kanye with Charlie!!! 
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 5,822
    rgambs said:
    BS44325 said:
    rgambs said:
    Is dragon energy the same as very stable genius?
    Because Kanye and Trump are definitely known for their stability lol
    Dragon energy is the life blood of the "doer". It is present all over the Kanye albums that were released in June. It's what was missing from the Missoula show.
    Better stop going to PJ shows and start going to watch Kanye lip synch then.  Don't waste good music, if you want nonsense leave the tickets for someone who wants a good show.
    Interesting that both Jeff and I loved seeing Kanye in concert... who has the good musical taste now?
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,284
    Wait a minute, did Jeff say Kanye didn't have the right to say what he said or just didn't like what he said?
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 5,822

    dignin said:
    BS44325 said:
    dignin said:
    BS44325 said:
    dignin said:

    Wow, he really went after Kanye's free speech.


    https://www.nme.com/news/music/pearl-jam-jeff-ament-interview-trump-kanye-west-2307764


    What do you think of someone like Kanye West recently coming out in support of Trump?

    “I love Kanye, I saw the last Kanye tour and I thought it was one of the greatest things ever, but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way. I think he’s just, you know, with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt. He’s been out of the news for a few months, so I think he’s looking to generate some. He says something about dragons, I don’t know, dragon energy, whatever that is.”

    Does this affect your enjoyment of his music?

    “I have a hard time separating the art from the artist. There’s certain artists where I don’t read their interviews because it really affects me enjoying their music. I wish I hadn’t opened that text that had the article about dragon energy and Donald Trump. It’s unfortunate.”




    Exactly. "...with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt." Way to defend a fellow artist. "Love Kanye...but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way." Pathetic if you ask me.
    Explain what this has to do with free speech, other than Jeff exercising his?
    You all keep saying that you can do "nuance"...but I wonder. Yes it is Jeff exercising his speech. He is entitled. He is not required to say anything. What I am suggesting with my speech is that these words from an artist who strongly believes in artistic freedom are frankly pathetic. A true believer in artistic freedom would have made a point of saying that "Even though I disagree...Kanye is a unique individual which is what makes his music great...which is why I love him in the first place...it's what makes Ye Ye." Jeff didn't do that. He questioned Kanye's integrity. An artist who takes controversial stances shouldn't do that to another artist who takes opposite controversial stances. They should embrace each other. They should support each other. It's artistic freedom that is at stake.
    Jeff said he loves Kanye's art. He doesn't like his opinions....that's not art. Your point has nothing to do with art. You are seriously going to try and argue that opinion is now art? 

    This has nothing to do with nuance, you are way out in foul territory here. Admit you have no point and try to argue a different point that makes some kind of sense.
    Have you ever listened to hip hop? Are you saying rap lyrics, flooded with opinion, aren't art? Please whitesplain this to the class then study a tape of N.W.A. 
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 18,949
    Its snowing today.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,284
    It's extremely generous when someone supports a band they can't stand.  Weird, but generous.
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • dignindignin Posts: 6,923
    BS44325 said:

    dignin said:
    BS44325 said:
    dignin said:
    BS44325 said:
    dignin said:

    Wow, he really went after Kanye's free speech.


    https://www.nme.com/news/music/pearl-jam-jeff-ament-interview-trump-kanye-west-2307764


    What do you think of someone like Kanye West recently coming out in support of Trump?

    “I love Kanye, I saw the last Kanye tour and I thought it was one of the greatest things ever, but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way. I think he’s just, you know, with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt. He’s been out of the news for a few months, so I think he’s looking to generate some. He says something about dragons, I don’t know, dragon energy, whatever that is.”

    Does this affect your enjoyment of his music?

    “I have a hard time separating the art from the artist. There’s certain artists where I don’t read their interviews because it really affects me enjoying their music. I wish I hadn’t opened that text that had the article about dragon energy and Donald Trump. It’s unfortunate.”




    Exactly. "...with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt." Way to defend a fellow artist. "Love Kanye...but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way." Pathetic if you ask me.
    Explain what this has to do with free speech, other than Jeff exercising his?
    You all keep saying that you can do "nuance"...but I wonder. Yes it is Jeff exercising his speech. He is entitled. He is not required to say anything. What I am suggesting with my speech is that these words from an artist who strongly believes in artistic freedom are frankly pathetic. A true believer in artistic freedom would have made a point of saying that "Even though I disagree...Kanye is a unique individual which is what makes his music great...which is why I love him in the first place...it's what makes Ye Ye." Jeff didn't do that. He questioned Kanye's integrity. An artist who takes controversial stances shouldn't do that to another artist who takes opposite controversial stances. They should embrace each other. They should support each other. It's artistic freedom that is at stake.
    Jeff said he loves Kanye's art. He doesn't like his opinions....that's not art. Your point has nothing to do with art. You are seriously going to try and argue that opinion is now art? 

    This has nothing to do with nuance, you are way out in foul territory here. Admit you have no point and try to argue a different point that makes some kind of sense.
    Have you ever listened to hip hop? Are you saying rap lyrics, flooded with opinion, aren't art? Please whitesplain this to the class then study a tape of N.W.A. 
    And the goal posts keep moving. Where was Jeff critical of Kanye's art? 

    You lost this point. Let it go.
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 5,822
    brianlux said:
    Wait a minute, did Jeff say Kanye didn't have the right to say what he said or just didn't like what he said?
    He just questioned his integrity. Stated he loves Kanye but because of his words he's gone the other way. Kanye's speech was too much for Jeff to handle. Jeff's entitled to the view but it's a pathetic point of view coming from a champion of artistic freedom. That's his freedom.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 45,905
    edited August 2018
    BS44325 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    dignin said:
    BS44325 said:
    dignin said:

    Wow, he really went after Kanye's free speech.


    https://www.nme.com/news/music/pearl-jam-jeff-ament-interview-trump-kanye-west-2307764


    What do you think of someone like Kanye West recently coming out in support of Trump?

    “I love Kanye, I saw the last Kanye tour and I thought it was one of the greatest things ever, but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way. I think he’s just, you know, with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt. He’s been out of the news for a few months, so I think he’s looking to generate some. He says something about dragons, I don’t know, dragon energy, whatever that is.”

    Does this affect your enjoyment of his music?

    “I have a hard time separating the art from the artist. There’s certain artists where I don’t read their interviews because it really affects me enjoying their music. I wish I hadn’t opened that text that had the article about dragon energy and Donald Trump. It’s unfortunate.”




    Exactly. "...with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt." Way to defend a fellow artist. "Love Kanye...but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way." Pathetic if you ask me.
    Explain what this has to do with free speech, other than Jeff exercising his?
    Yeah, I'm not clear on what you're really trying to get at either BS. I don't understand what it is you have a problem with. Are you saying that you think Jeff should not have an opinion about something stupid that Kanye said? Or are you saying he has to like all artists even when they are idiots, or not criticize artists when they say or do something he thinks sucks? I can't quite figure this out, knowing that you do support free speech. I dunno, do you think that there is something wrong with people not separating art from the artist maybe??
    It's a bit of the last point but mainly it is my concern about the "stifling of speech" culture that is spreading all around us like a weed. It is a culture that is happening on both sides. I hated it when conservatives wanted to boycott the dixie chicks and I hated it when liberals wanted to boycott kanye (this was a real suggestion in the hip hop community and amongst urban radio). I hate that this poster is in the fucking news at all...who the fuck cares?!  Free speech is under assault everywhere. Comedy is under assault. Artistic expression is under assault. I am ok with Jeff criticizing Kanye but I am disappointed that he couldn't at least throw the slightest bone to the idea of Kanye's artistic freedom and how it makes him the artist that he is. It wasn't Jeff's direct responsibility to do this but it was a missed opportunity from a band that I know deep down believes in artistic freedom. Like Jeff says...these are troubled times...and during these troubled times opportunities to defend speech should not be missed.
    Huh. Well I also don't separate the art from the artist - I think that's a very valid and understandable viewpoint. The artist has everything to do with the art. I feel like that part is a very neutral kind of thing - just a harmless matter of opinion. Those who don't feel this way about it are weird though. They claim they want to separate the artist from the art, but then get upset if the artist injects their own opinions into the art. One wanting to separate the artist from the art has literally nothing to do with what the artist does or says in the first place.
    But besides that, FWIW, I fucking loved it when the conservatives wanted to boycott the Dixie Chicks, lol, and I also love it if someone wants to boycott Kanye (I personally boycotted him years ago because he's a massive douche who I wouldn't want to give my money to, and I don't like that kind of music anyhow). I got a real kick out of people getting upset with Bu$hleaguer too. I enjoy it when people react to the actions of artists, particularly when they are freaking out about artistic content (which isn't the case with Kanye - his problem is his terrible personality and mental case/bullshit/attention whore political position). Boycotting doesn't impinge on anything besides what the people boycotting are choosing to enjoy or not. I definitely do not like how people seem so ignorant about art and its purpose, meaning, intent, etc, and many also seem to refuse to acknowledge the difference between free speech and hate speech, and also seem to refuse to acknowledge the definition of free speech altogether ... That is just frustrating to me. It reflects a widespread stupidity that makes me worry about the future in general, you know, in the idiocracy kind of way. But besides that, I don't give a flying fuck when people get worked up because they're offended by someone else's opinion or artwork, aside from the entertainment it provides.... Well, okay. I do also personally enjoy seeing the Trump supporters get upset, just because they're objectively assholes IMO.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 5,822
    dignin said:
    BS44325 said:

    dignin said:
    BS44325 said:
    dignin said:
    BS44325 said:
    dignin said:

    Wow, he really went after Kanye's free speech.


    https://www.nme.com/news/music/pearl-jam-jeff-ament-interview-trump-kanye-west-2307764


    What do you think of someone like Kanye West recently coming out in support of Trump?

    “I love Kanye, I saw the last Kanye tour and I thought it was one of the greatest things ever, but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way. I think he’s just, you know, with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt. He’s been out of the news for a few months, so I think he’s looking to generate some. He says something about dragons, I don’t know, dragon energy, whatever that is.”

    Does this affect your enjoyment of his music?

    “I have a hard time separating the art from the artist. There’s certain artists where I don’t read their interviews because it really affects me enjoying their music. I wish I hadn’t opened that text that had the article about dragon energy and Donald Trump. It’s unfortunate.”




    Exactly. "...with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt." Way to defend a fellow artist. "Love Kanye...but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way." Pathetic if you ask me.
    Explain what this has to do with free speech, other than Jeff exercising his?
    You all keep saying that you can do "nuance"...but I wonder. Yes it is Jeff exercising his speech. He is entitled. He is not required to say anything. What I am suggesting with my speech is that these words from an artist who strongly believes in artistic freedom are frankly pathetic. A true believer in artistic freedom would have made a point of saying that "Even though I disagree...Kanye is a unique individual which is what makes his music great...which is why I love him in the first place...it's what makes Ye Ye." Jeff didn't do that. He questioned Kanye's integrity. An artist who takes controversial stances shouldn't do that to another artist who takes opposite controversial stances. They should embrace each other. They should support each other. It's artistic freedom that is at stake.
    Jeff said he loves Kanye's art. He doesn't like his opinions....that's not art. Your point has nothing to do with art. You are seriously going to try and argue that opinion is now art? 

    This has nothing to do with nuance, you are way out in foul territory here. Admit you have no point and try to argue a different point that makes some kind of sense.
    Have you ever listened to hip hop? Are you saying rap lyrics, flooded with opinion, aren't art? Please whitesplain this to the class then study a tape of N.W.A. 
    And the goal posts keep moving. Where was Jeff critical of Kanye's art? 

    You lost this point. Let it go.
    Are you not even familiar with "Ye Vs. The People"? Are you seriously commenting on a thread you know nothing about? What do you think the magazine article stems from? You lost the match.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,284
    "Experts".  :lol:
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 5,822
    PJ_Soul said:
    BS44325 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    dignin said:
    BS44325 said:
    dignin said:

    Wow, he really went after Kanye's free speech.


    https://www.nme.com/news/music/pearl-jam-jeff-ament-interview-trump-kanye-west-2307764


    What do you think of someone like Kanye West recently coming out in support of Trump?

    “I love Kanye, I saw the last Kanye tour and I thought it was one of the greatest things ever, but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way. I think he’s just, you know, with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt. He’s been out of the news for a few months, so I think he’s looking to generate some. He says something about dragons, I don’t know, dragon energy, whatever that is.”

    Does this affect your enjoyment of his music?

    “I have a hard time separating the art from the artist. There’s certain artists where I don’t read their interviews because it really affects me enjoying their music. I wish I hadn’t opened that text that had the article about dragon energy and Donald Trump. It’s unfortunate.”




    Exactly. "...with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt." Way to defend a fellow artist. "Love Kanye...but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way." Pathetic if you ask me.
    Explain what this has to do with free speech, other than Jeff exercising his?
    Yeah, I'm not clear on what you're really trying to get at either BS. I don't understand what it is you have a problem with. Are you saying that you think Jeff should not have an opinion about something stupid that Kanye said? Or are you saying he has to like all artists even when they are idiots, or not criticize artists when they say or do something he thinks sucks? I can't quite figure this out, knowing that you do support free speech. I dunno, do you think that there is something wrong with people not separating art from the artist maybe??
    It's a bit of the last point but mainly it is my concern about the "stifling of speech" culture that is spreading all around us like a weed. It is a culture that is happening on both sides. I hated it when conservatives wanted to boycott the dixie chicks and I hated it when liberals wanted to boycott kanye (this was a real suggestion in the hip hop community and amongst urban radio). I hate that this poster is in the fucking news at all...who the fuck cares?!  Free speech is under assault everywhere. Comedy is under assault. Artistic expression is under assault. I am ok with Jeff criticizing Kanye but I am disappointed that he couldn't at least throw the slightest bone to the idea of Kanye's artistic freedom and how it makes him the artist that he is. It wasn't Jeff's direct responsibility to do this but it was a missed opportunity from a band that I know deep down believes in artistic freedom. Like Jeff says...these are troubled times...and during these troubled times opportunities to defend speech should not be missed.
    Huh. Well I also don't separate the art from the artist - I think that's a very valid and understandable viewpoint. The artist has everything to do with the art. I feel like that part is a very neutral kind of thing - just a harmless matter of opinion. Those who don't feel this way about it are weird though. They claim they want to separate the artist from the art, but then get upset if the artist injects their own opinions into the art. One wanting to separate the artist from the art has literally nothing to do with what the artist does or says in the first place.
    But besides that, FWIW, I fucking loved it when the conservatives wanted to boycott the Dixie Chicks, lol, and I also love it if someone wants to boycott Kanye (I personally boycotted him years ago because he's a massive douche who I wouldn't want to give my money to, and I don't like that kind of music anyhow). I got a real kick out of people getting upset with Bu$hleaguer too. I enjoy it when people react to the actions of artists, particularly when they are freaking out about artistic content (which isn't the case with Kanye - his problem is his terrible personality and mental case/bullshit/attention whore political position). Boycotting doesn't impinge on anything besides what the people boycotting are choosing to enjoy or not. I definitely do not like how people seem so ignorant about art and its purpose, meaning, intent, etc, and many also seem to refuse to acknowledge the difference between free speech and hate speech, and also seem to refuse to acknowledge the definition of free speech altogether ... That is just frustrating to me. It reflects a widespread stupidity that makes me worry about the future in general, you know, in the idiocracy kind of way. But besides that, I don't give a flying fuck when people get worked up because they're offended by someone else's opinion or artwork, aside from the entertainment it provides.... Well, okay. I do also personally enjoy seeing the Trump supporters get upset, just because they're objectively assholes IMO.
    Yeah but in the case I'm the Trump supporter getting upset that others are mad about the poster! I'm defending the band while at the same time pointing out a spot where I think Jeff fell short. I feel like I am the one being consistent here even if you don't think the situations are the same!
  • BS44325 said:
    brianlux said:
    Wait a minute, did Jeff say Kanye didn't have the right to say what he said or just didn't like what he said?
    He just questioned his integrity. Stated he loves Kanye but because of his words he's gone the other way. Kanye's speech was too much for Jeff to handle. Jeff's entitled to the view but it's a pathetic point of view coming from a champion of artistic freedom. That's his freedom.
    So... Jeff has to agree with what anyone else thinks, or he is pathetic?
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 7,382
    BS44325 said:
    brianlux said:
    Wait a minute, did Jeff say Kanye didn't have the right to say what he said or just didn't like what he said?
    He just questioned his integrity. Stated he loves Kanye but because of his words he's gone the other way. Kanye's speech was too much for Jeff to handle. Jeff's entitled to the view but it's a pathetic point of view coming from a champion of artistic freedom. That's his freedom.
    So... Jeff has to agree with what anyone else thinks, or he is pathetic?
    So... I have to stop eating meat or I'm a shitty person? Don't pretend you're above arbitrarily drawing lines of what's acceptable and what's not.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 45,905
    edited August 2018
    BS44325 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    BS44325 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    dignin said:
    BS44325 said:
    dignin said:

    Wow, he really went after Kanye's free speech.


    https://www.nme.com/news/music/pearl-jam-jeff-ament-interview-trump-kanye-west-2307764


    What do you think of someone like Kanye West recently coming out in support of Trump?

    “I love Kanye, I saw the last Kanye tour and I thought it was one of the greatest things ever, but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way. I think he’s just, you know, with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt. He’s been out of the news for a few months, so I think he’s looking to generate some. He says something about dragons, I don’t know, dragon energy, whatever that is.”

    Does this affect your enjoyment of his music?

    “I have a hard time separating the art from the artist. There’s certain artists where I don’t read their interviews because it really affects me enjoying their music. I wish I hadn’t opened that text that had the article about dragon energy and Donald Trump. It’s unfortunate.”




    Exactly. "...with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt." Way to defend a fellow artist. "Love Kanye...but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way." Pathetic if you ask me.
    Explain what this has to do with free speech, other than Jeff exercising his?
    Yeah, I'm not clear on what you're really trying to get at either BS. I don't understand what it is you have a problem with. Are you saying that you think Jeff should not have an opinion about something stupid that Kanye said? Or are you saying he has to like all artists even when they are idiots, or not criticize artists when they say or do something he thinks sucks? I can't quite figure this out, knowing that you do support free speech. I dunno, do you think that there is something wrong with people not separating art from the artist maybe??
    It's a bit of the last point but mainly it is my concern about the "stifling of speech" culture that is spreading all around us like a weed. It is a culture that is happening on both sides. I hated it when conservatives wanted to boycott the dixie chicks and I hated it when liberals wanted to boycott kanye (this was a real suggestion in the hip hop community and amongst urban radio). I hate that this poster is in the fucking news at all...who the fuck cares?!  Free speech is under assault everywhere. Comedy is under assault. Artistic expression is under assault. I am ok with Jeff criticizing Kanye but I am disappointed that he couldn't at least throw the slightest bone to the idea of Kanye's artistic freedom and how it makes him the artist that he is. It wasn't Jeff's direct responsibility to do this but it was a missed opportunity from a band that I know deep down believes in artistic freedom. Like Jeff says...these are troubled times...and during these troubled times opportunities to defend speech should not be missed.
    Huh. Well I also don't separate the art from the artist - I think that's a very valid and understandable viewpoint. The artist has everything to do with the art. I feel like that part is a very neutral kind of thing - just a harmless matter of opinion. Those who don't feel this way about it are weird though. They claim they want to separate the artist from the art, but then get upset if the artist injects their own opinions into the art. One wanting to separate the artist from the art has literally nothing to do with what the artist does or says in the first place.
    But besides that, FWIW, I fucking loved it when the conservatives wanted to boycott the Dixie Chicks, lol, and I also love it if someone wants to boycott Kanye (I personally boycotted him years ago because he's a massive douche who I wouldn't want to give my money to, and I don't like that kind of music anyhow). I got a real kick out of people getting upset with Bu$hleaguer too. I enjoy it when people react to the actions of artists, particularly when they are freaking out about artistic content (which isn't the case with Kanye - his problem is his terrible personality and mental case/bullshit/attention whore political position). Boycotting doesn't impinge on anything besides what the people boycotting are choosing to enjoy or not. I definitely do not like how people seem so ignorant about art and its purpose, meaning, intent, etc, and many also seem to refuse to acknowledge the difference between free speech and hate speech, and also seem to refuse to acknowledge the definition of free speech altogether ... That is just frustrating to me. It reflects a widespread stupidity that makes me worry about the future in general, you know, in the idiocracy kind of way. But besides that, I don't give a flying fuck when people get worked up because they're offended by someone else's opinion or artwork, aside from the entertainment it provides.... Well, okay. I do also personally enjoy seeing the Trump supporters get upset, just because they're objectively assholes IMO.
    Yeah but in the case I'm the Trump supporter getting upset that others are mad about the poster! I'm defending the band while at the same time pointing out a spot where I think Jeff fell short. I feel like I am the one being consistent here even if you don't think the situations are the same!
    When it come to you, I don't think I suggested you're being inconsistent, I'm just disagreeing with your take on how Jeff falls short... I think, as you said, most of it is about you wanting to Jeff to separate the art from the artist, which I obviously don't think is reasonable at all. and I really don't understand how you think someone who champions artistic freedom would have a reason not to think what Jeff thinks about Kanye. It just doesn't make sense to me.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 5,822
    BS44325 said:
    brianlux said:
    Wait a minute, did Jeff say Kanye didn't have the right to say what he said or just didn't like what he said?
    He just questioned his integrity. Stated he loves Kanye but because of his words he's gone the other way. Kanye's speech was too much for Jeff to handle. Jeff's entitled to the view but it's a pathetic point of view coming from a champion of artistic freedom. That's his freedom.
    So... Jeff has to agree with what anyone else thinks, or he is pathetic?
    How can you possibly think that is what I said? For real? You won’t get your bars off with distortions.
  • benjs said:
    BS44325 said:
    brianlux said:
    Wait a minute, did Jeff say Kanye didn't have the right to say what he said or just didn't like what he said?
    He just questioned his integrity. Stated he loves Kanye but because of his words he's gone the other way. Kanye's speech was too much for Jeff to handle. Jeff's entitled to the view but it's a pathetic point of view coming from a champion of artistic freedom. That's his freedom.
    So... Jeff has to agree with what anyone else thinks, or he is pathetic?
    So... I have to stop eating meat or I'm a shitty person? Don't pretend you're above arbitrarily drawing lines of what's acceptable and what's not.
    I don't understand.
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 5,822
    PJ_Soul said:
    BS44325 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    BS44325 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    dignin said:
    BS44325 said:
    dignin said:

    Wow, he really went after Kanye's free speech.


    https://www.nme.com/news/music/pearl-jam-jeff-ament-interview-trump-kanye-west-2307764


    What do you think of someone like Kanye West recently coming out in support of Trump?

    “I love Kanye, I saw the last Kanye tour and I thought it was one of the greatest things ever, but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way. I think he’s just, you know, with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt. He’s been out of the news for a few months, so I think he’s looking to generate some. He says something about dragons, I don’t know, dragon energy, whatever that is.”

    Does this affect your enjoyment of his music?

    “I have a hard time separating the art from the artist. There’s certain artists where I don’t read their interviews because it really affects me enjoying their music. I wish I hadn’t opened that text that had the article about dragon energy and Donald Trump. It’s unfortunate.”




    Exactly. "...with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt." Way to defend a fellow artist. "Love Kanye...but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way." Pathetic if you ask me.
    Explain what this has to do with free speech, other than Jeff exercising his?
    Yeah, I'm not clear on what you're really trying to get at either BS. I don't understand what it is you have a problem with. Are you saying that you think Jeff should not have an opinion about something stupid that Kanye said? Or are you saying he has to like all artists even when they are idiots, or not criticize artists when they say or do something he thinks sucks? I can't quite figure this out, knowing that you do support free speech. I dunno, do you think that there is something wrong with people not separating art from the artist maybe??
    It's a bit of the last point but mainly it is my concern about the "stifling of speech" culture that is spreading all around us like a weed. It is a culture that is happening on both sides. I hated it when conservatives wanted to boycott the dixie chicks and I hated it when liberals wanted to boycott kanye (this was a real suggestion in the hip hop community and amongst urban radio). I hate that this poster is in the fucking news at all...who the fuck cares?!  Free speech is under assault everywhere. Comedy is under assault. Artistic expression is under assault. I am ok with Jeff criticizing Kanye but I am disappointed that he couldn't at least throw the slightest bone to the idea of Kanye's artistic freedom and how it makes him the artist that he is. It wasn't Jeff's direct responsibility to do this but it was a missed opportunity from a band that I know deep down believes in artistic freedom. Like Jeff says...these are troubled times...and during these troubled times opportunities to defend speech should not be missed.
    Huh. Well I also don't separate the art from the artist - I think that's a very valid and understandable viewpoint. The artist has everything to do with the art. I feel like that part is a very neutral kind of thing - just a harmless matter of opinion. Those who don't feel this way about it are weird though. They claim they want to separate the artist from the art, but then get upset if the artist injects their own opinions into the art. One wanting to separate the artist from the art has literally nothing to do with what the artist does or says in the first place.
    But besides that, FWIW, I fucking loved it when the conservatives wanted to boycott the Dixie Chicks, lol, and I also love it if someone wants to boycott Kanye (I personally boycotted him years ago because he's a massive douche who I wouldn't want to give my money to, and I don't like that kind of music anyhow). I got a real kick out of people getting upset with Bu$hleaguer too. I enjoy it when people react to the actions of artists, particularly when they are freaking out about artistic content (which isn't the case with Kanye - his problem is his terrible personality and mental case/bullshit/attention whore political position). Boycotting doesn't impinge on anything besides what the people boycotting are choosing to enjoy or not. I definitely do not like how people seem so ignorant about art and its purpose, meaning, intent, etc, and many also seem to refuse to acknowledge the difference between free speech and hate speech, and also seem to refuse to acknowledge the definition of free speech altogether ... That is just frustrating to me. It reflects a widespread stupidity that makes me worry about the future in general, you know, in the idiocracy kind of way. But besides that, I don't give a flying fuck when people get worked up because they're offended by someone else's opinion or artwork, aside from the entertainment it provides.... Well, okay. I do also personally enjoy seeing the Trump supporters get upset, just because they're objectively assholes IMO.
    Yeah but in the case I'm the Trump supporter getting upset that others are mad about the poster! I'm defending the band while at the same time pointing out a spot where I think Jeff fell short. I feel like I am the one being consistent here even if you don't think the situations are the same!
    When it come to you, I don't think I suggested you're being inconsistent, I'm just disagreeing with your take on how Jeff falls short... I think, as you said, most of it is about you wanting to Jeff to separate the art from the artist, which I obviously don't think is reasonable at all. and I really don't understand how you think someone who champions artistic freedom would have a reason not to think what Jeff thinks about Kanye. It just doesn't make sense to me.
    Yeah...you’re right....I just think there is a way to do both. There is a way for him to criticize Kanye and champion his artistic freedom all at the same time. It’s critically important for all of us to learn how to do this.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 45,905
    BS44325 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    BS44325 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    BS44325 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    dignin said:
    BS44325 said:
    dignin said:

    Wow, he really went after Kanye's free speech.


    https://www.nme.com/news/music/pearl-jam-jeff-ament-interview-trump-kanye-west-2307764


    What do you think of someone like Kanye West recently coming out in support of Trump?

    “I love Kanye, I saw the last Kanye tour and I thought it was one of the greatest things ever, but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way. I think he’s just, you know, with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt. He’s been out of the news for a few months, so I think he’s looking to generate some. He says something about dragons, I don’t know, dragon energy, whatever that is.”

    Does this affect your enjoyment of his music?

    “I have a hard time separating the art from the artist. There’s certain artists where I don’t read their interviews because it really affects me enjoying their music. I wish I hadn’t opened that text that had the article about dragon energy and Donald Trump. It’s unfortunate.”




    Exactly. "...with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt." Way to defend a fellow artist. "Love Kanye...but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way." Pathetic if you ask me.
    Explain what this has to do with free speech, other than Jeff exercising his?
    Yeah, I'm not clear on what you're really trying to get at either BS. I don't understand what it is you have a problem with. Are you saying that you think Jeff should not have an opinion about something stupid that Kanye said? Or are you saying he has to like all artists even when they are idiots, or not criticize artists when they say or do something he thinks sucks? I can't quite figure this out, knowing that you do support free speech. I dunno, do you think that there is something wrong with people not separating art from the artist maybe??
    It's a bit of the last point but mainly it is my concern about the "stifling of speech" culture that is spreading all around us like a weed. It is a culture that is happening on both sides. I hated it when conservatives wanted to boycott the dixie chicks and I hated it when liberals wanted to boycott kanye (this was a real suggestion in the hip hop community and amongst urban radio). I hate that this poster is in the fucking news at all...who the fuck cares?!  Free speech is under assault everywhere. Comedy is under assault. Artistic expression is under assault. I am ok with Jeff criticizing Kanye but I am disappointed that he couldn't at least throw the slightest bone to the idea of Kanye's artistic freedom and how it makes him the artist that he is. It wasn't Jeff's direct responsibility to do this but it was a missed opportunity from a band that I know deep down believes in artistic freedom. Like Jeff says...these are troubled times...and during these troubled times opportunities to defend speech should not be missed.
    Huh. Well I also don't separate the art from the artist - I think that's a very valid and understandable viewpoint. The artist has everything to do with the art. I feel like that part is a very neutral kind of thing - just a harmless matter of opinion. Those who don't feel this way about it are weird though. They claim they want to separate the artist from the art, but then get upset if the artist injects their own opinions into the art. One wanting to separate the artist from the art has literally nothing to do with what the artist does or says in the first place.
    But besides that, FWIW, I fucking loved it when the conservatives wanted to boycott the Dixie Chicks, lol, and I also love it if someone wants to boycott Kanye (I personally boycotted him years ago because he's a massive douche who I wouldn't want to give my money to, and I don't like that kind of music anyhow). I got a real kick out of people getting upset with Bu$hleaguer too. I enjoy it when people react to the actions of artists, particularly when they are freaking out about artistic content (which isn't the case with Kanye - his problem is his terrible personality and mental case/bullshit/attention whore political position). Boycotting doesn't impinge on anything besides what the people boycotting are choosing to enjoy or not. I definitely do not like how people seem so ignorant about art and its purpose, meaning, intent, etc, and many also seem to refuse to acknowledge the difference between free speech and hate speech, and also seem to refuse to acknowledge the definition of free speech altogether ... That is just frustrating to me. It reflects a widespread stupidity that makes me worry about the future in general, you know, in the idiocracy kind of way. But besides that, I don't give a flying fuck when people get worked up because they're offended by someone else's opinion or artwork, aside from the entertainment it provides.... Well, okay. I do also personally enjoy seeing the Trump supporters get upset, just because they're objectively assholes IMO.
    Yeah but in the case I'm the Trump supporter getting upset that others are mad about the poster! I'm defending the band while at the same time pointing out a spot where I think Jeff fell short. I feel like I am the one being consistent here even if you don't think the situations are the same!
    When it come to you, I don't think I suggested you're being inconsistent, I'm just disagreeing with your take on how Jeff falls short... I think, as you said, most of it is about you wanting to Jeff to separate the art from the artist, which I obviously don't think is reasonable at all. and I really don't understand how you think someone who champions artistic freedom would have a reason not to think what Jeff thinks about Kanye. It just doesn't make sense to me.
    Yeah...you’re right....I just think there is a way to do both. There is a way for him to criticize Kanye and champion his artistic freedom all at the same time. It’s critically important for all of us to learn how to do this.
    I think Jeff does champion his artistic freedom though.... He never did or said anything that doesn't support Kanye's artistic freedom, nor anyone else's. Basically, I think he already did exactly what you are saying you'd wish he'd do.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • dignindignin Posts: 6,923
    edited August 2018
    BS44325 said:
    dignin said:
    BS44325 said:

    dignin said:
    BS44325 said:
    dignin said:
    BS44325 said:
    dignin said:

    Wow, he really went after Kanye's free speech.


    https://www.nme.com/news/music/pearl-jam-jeff-ament-interview-trump-kanye-west-2307764


    What do you think of someone like Kanye West recently coming out in support of Trump?

    “I love Kanye, I saw the last Kanye tour and I thought it was one of the greatest things ever, but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way. I think he’s just, you know, with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt. He’s been out of the news for a few months, so I think he’s looking to generate some. He says something about dragons, I don’t know, dragon energy, whatever that is.”

    Does this affect your enjoyment of his music?

    “I have a hard time separating the art from the artist. There’s certain artists where I don’t read their interviews because it really affects me enjoying their music. I wish I hadn’t opened that text that had the article about dragon energy and Donald Trump. It’s unfortunate.”




    Exactly. "...with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt." Way to defend a fellow artist. "Love Kanye...but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way." Pathetic if you ask me.
    Explain what this has to do with free speech, other than Jeff exercising his?
    You all keep saying that you can do "nuance"...but I wonder. Yes it is Jeff exercising his speech. He is entitled. He is not required to say anything. What I am suggesting with my speech is that these words from an artist who strongly believes in artistic freedom are frankly pathetic. A true believer in artistic freedom would have made a point of saying that "Even though I disagree...Kanye is a unique individual which is what makes his music great...which is why I love him in the first place...it's what makes Ye Ye." Jeff didn't do that. He questioned Kanye's integrity. An artist who takes controversial stances shouldn't do that to another artist who takes opposite controversial stances. They should embrace each other. They should support each other. It's artistic freedom that is at stake.
    Jeff said he loves Kanye's art. He doesn't like his opinions....that's not art. Your point has nothing to do with art. You are seriously going to try and argue that opinion is now art? 

    This has nothing to do with nuance, you are way out in foul territory here. Admit you have no point and try to argue a different point that makes some kind of sense.
    Have you ever listened to hip hop? Are you saying rap lyrics, flooded with opinion, aren't art? Please whitesplain this to the class then study a tape of N.W.A. 
    And the goal posts keep moving. Where was Jeff critical of Kanye's art? 

    You lost this point. Let it go.
    Are you not even familiar with "Ye Vs. The People"? Are you seriously commenting on a thread you know nothing about? What do you think the magazine article stems from? You lost the match.
    You didn't answer my question. Either you didn't read the article or you're really having trouble understanding what the interviewer asked and what Jeff answered. 
    Post edited by dignin on
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 7,382
    benjs said:
    BS44325 said:
    brianlux said:
    Wait a minute, did Jeff say Kanye didn't have the right to say what he said or just didn't like what he said?
    He just questioned his integrity. Stated he loves Kanye but because of his words he's gone the other way. Kanye's speech was too much for Jeff to handle. Jeff's entitled to the view but it's a pathetic point of view coming from a champion of artistic freedom. That's his freedom.
    So... Jeff has to agree with what anyone else thinks, or he is pathetic?
    So... I have to stop eating meat or I'm a shitty person? Don't pretend you're above arbitrarily drawing lines of what's acceptable and what's not.
    I don't understand.
    I'm asking why you hold issue with some binary thinking but not all. Based on your personal set of values, it appears that you draw outlandish conclusions with no room for grey in your black and white world.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 7,102
    BS44325 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    dignin said:
    BS44325 said:
    dignin said:

    Wow, he really went after Kanye's free speech.


    https://www.nme.com/news/music/pearl-jam-jeff-ament-interview-trump-kanye-west-2307764


    What do you think of someone like Kanye West recently coming out in support of Trump?

    “I love Kanye, I saw the last Kanye tour and I thought it was one of the greatest things ever, but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way. I think he’s just, you know, with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt. He’s been out of the news for a few months, so I think he’s looking to generate some. He says something about dragons, I don’t know, dragon energy, whatever that is.”

    Does this affect your enjoyment of his music?

    “I have a hard time separating the art from the artist. There’s certain artists where I don’t read their interviews because it really affects me enjoying their music. I wish I hadn’t opened that text that had the article about dragon energy and Donald Trump. It’s unfortunate.”




    Exactly. "...with the Kardashians and that whole thing. All of it is just a big publicity stunt." Way to defend a fellow artist. "Love Kanye...but then when he opened his mouth, I swung the other way." Pathetic if you ask me.
    Explain what this has to do with free speech, other than Jeff exercising his?
    Yeah, I'm not clear on what you're really trying to get at either BS. I don't understand what it is you have a problem with. Are you saying that you think Jeff should not have an opinion about something stupid that Kanye said? Or are you saying he has to like all artists even when they are idiots, or not criticize artists when they say or do something he thinks sucks? I can't quite figure this out, knowing that you do support free speech. I dunno, do you think that there is something wrong with people not separating art from the artist maybe??
    It's a bit of the last point but mainly it is my concern about the "stifling of speech" culture that is spreading all around us like a weed. It is a culture that is happening on both sides. I hated it when conservatives wanted to boycott the dixie chicks and I hated it when liberals wanted to boycott kanye (this was a real suggestion in the hip hop community and amongst urban radio). I hate that this poster is in the fucking news at all...who the fuck cares?!  Free speech is under assault everywhere. Comedy is under assault. Artistic expression is under assault. I am ok with Jeff criticizing Kanye but I am disappointed that he couldn't at least throw the slightest bone to the idea of Kanye's artistic freedom and how it makes him the artist that he is. It wasn't Jeff's direct responsibility to do this but it was a missed opportunity from a band that I know deep down believes in artistic freedom. Like Jeff says...these are troubled times...and during these troubled times opportunities to defend speech should not be missed.
    It’s not a cultural trend. What you’re describing has always been going on in some form. 
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