Should white people be able to appropriate black hairstyles (afro, braids, dreadlocks)

HughFreakingDillon

Yes

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

Cultural appropriation is a bit tricky at times.  I mean, have dreads always been a black thing?  Don't they form naturally on anyone who has long hair and doesn't comb or brush?

On the other hand, things like Dream Catchers are definitely cultural appropriation.  It bugs the crap out of me when I see some blonde soccer mom with a Dream Catcher dangling from the rear view mirror.  It's ripping off someone's culture and obscuring their driving vision.  No!  Please don't do that!

That is weird though, because First Nations LOVE selling dreamcatchers to white people. You see them in every single gift shop on any reserve or at any native casino. I see First Nations people selling them from tables on the street in downtown Vancouver. So how can that possibly be cultural appropriation if they are using them as money makers by selling them to white people?? That makes no sense. I can't agree with the dream catcher theory because of this.

my daughters have dream catchers on their bedroom windows. 

brianlux

Yes

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

Cultural appropriation is a bit tricky at times.  I mean, have dreads always been a black thing?  Don't they form naturally on anyone who has long hair and doesn't comb or brush?

On the other hand, things like Dream Catchers are definitely cultural appropriation.  It bugs the crap out of me when I see some blonde soccer mom with a Dream Catcher dangling from the rear view mirror.  It's ripping off someone's culture and obscuring their driving vision.  No!  Please don't do that!

That is weird though, because First Nations LOVE selling dreamcatchers to white people. You see them in every single gift shop on any reserve or at any native casino. I see First Nations people selling them from tables on the street in downtown Vancouver. So how can that possibly be cultural appropriation if they are using them as money makers by selling them to white people?? That makes no sense. I can't agree with the dream catcher theory because of this.

Oh, shame on those damn Canadian Indians! (AKA First Nation Peoples- funny that we have differing terminology)

No, all joking aside, really?  I don't think Native Americans down this way are in favor of doing that.  God, I hope not! 

cincybearcat

Yes

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

Go Beavers said:

I have pretty much two reactions to the subject. First is that there is no harm done by suspending judgment on another persons reaction to appropriation and working toward listening and understanding where their reaction comes from. I think immediately discounting the reaction is a disservice. 

Also, white people in the US have the privilege of deciding how things will go. This includes what words will be used, where we can go, what resources are ours, what land is ours, what neighborhoods are ours. Appropriation is an example of deciding something is ours. Yes it’s hair, but also can represent something larger to a minority. White people will take your music, your style, your hair, and your labor. But no they won’t have you in their neighborhood, their club, and you won’t have a seat at the table with the white businessmen.  

That's laying an awful lot of responsibility on some white kid who wants dreads, don't you think?? I don't think that's fair.

Well, much of what has happened to black Americans hasn’t been fair, either. 

Go Beavers said much better what I fumbled - it’s about listening to people and thinking about it through their eyes and not just immediately dismissing it as silly or “a reason to be offended”. 

You know though you can listen to them and see it through their eyes and then still see something as a silly reason to be offended.

HughFreakingDillon

Yes

brianlux said:

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

Cultural appropriation is a bit tricky at times.  I mean, have dreads always been a black thing?  Don't they form naturally on anyone who has long hair and doesn't comb or brush?

On the other hand, things like Dream Catchers are definitely cultural appropriation.  It bugs the crap out of me when I see some blonde soccer mom with a Dream Catcher dangling from the rear view mirror.  It's ripping off someone's culture and obscuring their driving vision.  No!  Please don't do that!

That is weird though, because First Nations LOVE selling dreamcatchers to white people. You see them in every single gift shop on any reserve or at any native casino. I see First Nations people selling them from tables on the street in downtown Vancouver. So how can that possibly be cultural appropriation if they are using them as money makers by selling them to white people?? That makes no sense. I can't agree with the dream catcher theory because of this.

Oh, shame on those damn Canadian Indians! (AKA First Nation Peoples- funny that we have differing terminology)

No, all joking aside, really?  I don't think Native Americans down this way are in favor of doing that.  God, I hope not! 

I can't believe people still call them Indians at all. They have zero to do with India. We've known that for hundreds of years. And yet so many people still call them that. I find it so odd. 

Louis CK did an amazing bit on this actually. 

PJPOWER

Yes

brianlux said:

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

Cultural appropriation is a bit tricky at times.  I mean, have dreads always been a black thing?  Don't they form naturally on anyone who has long hair and doesn't comb or brush?

On the other hand, things like Dream Catchers are definitely cultural appropriation.  It bugs the crap out of me when I see some blonde soccer mom with a Dream Catcher dangling from the rear view mirror.  It's ripping off someone's culture and obscuring their driving vision.  No!  Please don't do that!

That is weird though, because First Nations LOVE selling dreamcatchers to white people. You see them in every single gift shop on any reserve or at any native casino. I see First Nations people selling them from tables on the street in downtown Vancouver. So how can that possibly be cultural appropriation if they are using them as money makers by selling them to white people?? That makes no sense. I can't agree with the dream catcher theory because of this.

Oh, shame on those damn Canadian Indians! (AKA First Nation Peoples- funny that we have differing terminology)

No, all joking aside, really?  I don't think Native Americans down this way are in favor of doing that.  God, I hope not! 

I was actually out in AZ at a Native American market this summer and there were a ton of dream catchers for sale for the tourists that knew nothing about them.  My grandparents brought me one from a reservoir in OK when I was a kid.  This has been going on for years.

PJ_Soul

Yes

HughFreakingDillon said:

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

Go Beavers said:

I have pretty much two reactions to the subject. First is that there is no harm done by suspending judgment on another persons reaction to appropriation and working toward listening and understanding where their reaction comes from. I think immediately discounting the reaction is a disservice. 

Also, white people in the US have the privilege of deciding how things will go. This includes what words will be used, where we can go, what resources are ours, what land is ours, what neighborhoods are ours. Appropriation is an example of deciding something is ours. Yes it’s hair, but also can represent something larger to a minority. White people will take your music, your style, your hair, and your labor. But no they won’t have you in their neighborhood, their club, and you won’t have a seat at the table with the white businessmen.  

That's laying an awful lot of responsibility on some white kid who wants dreads, don't you think?? I don't think that's fair.

Well, much of what has happened to black Americans hasn’t been fair, either. 

Go Beavers said much better what I fumbled - it’s about listening to people and thinking about it through their eyes and not just immediately dismissing it as silly or “a reason to be offended”. 

I, for one, didn't immediately dismiss it. I have thought about both sides. I still find it a bit much. 

Ditto.

PJ_Soul

Yes

brianlux said:

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

Cultural appropriation is a bit tricky at times.  I mean, have dreads always been a black thing?  Don't they form naturally on anyone who has long hair and doesn't comb or brush?

On the other hand, things like Dream Catchers are definitely cultural appropriation.  It bugs the crap out of me when I see some blonde soccer mom with a Dream Catcher dangling from the rear view mirror.  It's ripping off someone's culture and obscuring their driving vision.  No!  Please don't do that!

That is weird though, because First Nations LOVE selling dreamcatchers to white people. You see them in every single gift shop on any reserve or at any native casino. I see First Nations people selling them from tables on the street in downtown Vancouver. So how can that possibly be cultural appropriation if they are using them as money makers by selling them to white people?? That makes no sense. I can't agree with the dream catcher theory because of this.

Oh, shame on those damn Canadian Indians! (AKA First Nation Peoples- funny that we have differing terminology)

No, all joking aside, really?  I don't think Native Americans down this way are in favor of doing that.  God, I hope not! 

Yeah, I've seen American First Nations doing it too. And why do you hope not? If they are able to make a business with it, then that's a good thing, right? It's art. So what? Most art has some kind of spiritual meaning behind it, doesn't it? My mom has some beautiful hand woven native baskets that she got from local reserves - she used to take me with her to hunt for them and meet the First Nations locals and talk to them about their art and everything. Their carvings too, including totems. They were very happy to have us white people appreciating and paying for the stuff they make. The university I work at just erected a very large totem pole at the campus entrance and First Nations elders attended the unveiling and performed a ceremony and everything... lots of white people were involved in making that happen. It's meant as and taken as a sign of respect for the First Nation's territory that we inhabit.

PJ_Soul

Yes

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

Cultural appropriation is a bit tricky at times.  I mean, have dreads always been a black thing?  Don't they form naturally on anyone who has long hair and doesn't comb or brush?

On the other hand, things like Dream Catchers are definitely cultural appropriation.  It bugs the crap out of me when I see some blonde soccer mom with a Dream Catcher dangling from the rear view mirror.  It's ripping off someone's culture and obscuring their driving vision.  No!  Please don't do that!

That is weird though, because First Nations LOVE selling dreamcatchers to white people. You see them in every single gift shop on any reserve or at any native casino. I see First Nations people selling them from tables on the street in downtown Vancouver. So how can that possibly be cultural appropriation if they are using them as money makers by selling them to white people?? That makes no sense. I can't agree with the dream catcher theory because of this.

Oh, shame on those damn Canadian Indians! (AKA First Nation Peoples- funny that we have differing terminology)

No, all joking aside, really?  I don't think Native Americans down this way are in favor of doing that.  God, I hope not! 

I can't believe people still call them Indians at all. They have zero to do with India. We've known that for hundreds of years. And yet so many people still call them that. I find it so odd. 

Louis CK did an amazing bit on this actually. 

Yeah, if anyone says Indians I'm automatically assuming they're talking about people from India. I find it very strange that that label still exists anywhere.

Go Beavers

PJ_Soul said:

Go Beavers said:

I have pretty much two reactions to the subject. First is that there is no harm done by suspending judgment on another persons reaction to appropriation and working toward listening and understanding where their reaction comes from. I think immediately discounting the reaction is a disservice. 

Also, white people in the US have the privilege of deciding how things will go. This includes what words will be used, where we can go, what resources are ours, what land is ours, what neighborhoods are ours. Appropriation is an example of deciding something is ours. Yes it’s hair, but also can represent something larger to a minority. White people will take your music, your style, your hair, and your labor. But no they won’t have you in their neighborhood, their club, and you won’t have a seat at the table with the white businessmen.  

That's laying an awful lot of responsibility on some white kid who wants dreads, don't you think?? I don't think that's fair.

Looking at it as an individual decision rather than the larger historical and cultural context is often how white people can operate. The white kid who wants dreads is wanting that within his own context and experience. “I want dreads so I should grow dreads”. A black person might look at a white kid who wants dreads with a different take that includes a history of racism and discrimination. Most white people have the luxury of avoiding even thinking about racism and it’s impact. For most whites, to think about this history requires more conscious action. 

HughFreakingDillon

Yes

Go Beavers said:

PJ_Soul said:

Go Beavers said:

I have pretty much two reactions to the subject. First is that there is no harm done by suspending judgment on another persons reaction to appropriation and working toward listening and understanding where their reaction comes from. I think immediately discounting the reaction is a disservice. 

Also, white people in the US have the privilege of deciding how things will go. This includes what words will be used, where we can go, what resources are ours, what land is ours, what neighborhoods are ours. Appropriation is an example of deciding something is ours. Yes it’s hair, but also can represent something larger to a minority. White people will take your music, your style, your hair, and your labor. But no they won’t have you in their neighborhood, their club, and you won’t have a seat at the table with the white businessmen.  

That's laying an awful lot of responsibility on some white kid who wants dreads, don't you think?? I don't think that's fair.

Looking at it as an individual decision rather than the larger historical and cultural context is often how white people can operate. The white kid who wants dreads is wanting that within his own context and experience. “I want dreads so I should grow dreads”. A black person might look at a white kid who wants dreads with a different take that includes a history of racism and discrimination. Most white people have the luxury of avoiding even thinking about racism and it’s impact. For most whites, to think about this history requires more conscious action. 

true, but is your average black person looking at a white person with dreads with disdain over cultural appropriation, or disdain simply because it looks funny on a white dude?

jeffbr

Yes

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

Cultural appropriation is a bit tricky at times.  I mean, have dreads always been a black thing?  Don't they form naturally on anyone who has long hair and doesn't comb or brush?

On the other hand, things like Dream Catchers are definitely cultural appropriation.  It bugs the crap out of me when I see some blonde soccer mom with a Dream Catcher dangling from the rear view mirror.  It's ripping off someone's culture and obscuring their driving vision.  No!  Please don't do that!

That is weird though, because First Nations LOVE selling dreamcatchers to white people. You see them in every single gift shop on any reserve or at any native casino. I see First Nations people selling them from tables on the street in downtown Vancouver. So how can that possibly be cultural appropriation if they are using them as money makers by selling them to white people?? That makes no sense. I can't agree with the dream catcher theory because of this.

Oh, shame on those damn Canadian Indians! (AKA First Nation Peoples- funny that we have differing terminology)

No, all joking aside, really?  I don't think Native Americans down this way are in favor of doing that.  God, I hope not! 

I can't believe people still call them Indians at all. They have zero to do with India. We've known that for hundreds of years. And yet so many people still call them that. I find it so odd. 

Louis CK did an amazing bit on this actually. 

Yeah, if anyone says Indians I'm automatically assuming they're talking about people from India. I find it very strange that that label still exists anywhere.

Yeah, I prefer not to say Indian, but they, themselves will use that. And I know Santa Fe has a Santa Fe Indian Market right in the downtown plaza where natives sell their wares. Jewelry, pottery, art, and yes, dreamcatchers.

HughFreakingDillon

Yes

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

Cultural appropriation is a bit tricky at times.  I mean, have dreads always been a black thing?  Don't they form naturally on anyone who has long hair and doesn't comb or brush?

On the other hand, things like Dream Catchers are definitely cultural appropriation.  It bugs the crap out of me when I see some blonde soccer mom with a Dream Catcher dangling from the rear view mirror.  It's ripping off someone's culture and obscuring their driving vision.  No!  Please don't do that!

That is weird though, because First Nations LOVE selling dreamcatchers to white people. You see them in every single gift shop on any reserve or at any native casino. I see First Nations people selling them from tables on the street in downtown Vancouver. So how can that possibly be cultural appropriation if they are using them as money makers by selling them to white people?? That makes no sense. I can't agree with the dream catcher theory because of this.

Oh, shame on those damn Canadian Indians! (AKA First Nation Peoples- funny that we have differing terminology)

No, all joking aside, really?  I don't think Native Americans down this way are in favor of doing that.  God, I hope not! 

I can't believe people still call them Indians at all. They have zero to do with India. We've known that for hundreds of years. And yet so many people still call them that. I find it so odd. 

Louis CK did an amazing bit on this actually. 

Yeah, if anyone says Indians I'm automatically assuming they're talking about people from India. I find it very strange that that label still exists anywhere.

Yeah, I prefer not to say Indian, but they, themselves will use that. And I know Santa Fe has a Santa Fe Indian Market right in the downtown plaza where natives sell their wares. Jewelry, pottery, art, and yes, dreamcatchers.

yes, this happens. I'm not sure if they still exist, but for a long time one of the most prominent gangs in Winnipeg was the Indian Posse, and they were not from India. 

Go Beavers

cincybearcat said:

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

Go Beavers said:

I have pretty much two reactions to the subject. First is that there is no harm done by suspending judgment on another persons reaction to appropriation and working toward listening and understanding where their reaction comes from. I think immediately discounting the reaction is a disservice. 

Also, white people in the US have the privilege of deciding how things will go. This includes what words will be used, where we can go, what resources are ours, what land is ours, what neighborhoods are ours. Appropriation is an example of deciding something is ours. Yes it’s hair, but also can represent something larger to a minority. White people will take your music, your style, your hair, and your labor. But no they won’t have you in their neighborhood, their club, and you won’t have a seat at the table with the white businessmen.  

That's laying an awful lot of responsibility on some white kid who wants dreads, don't you think?? I don't think that's fair.

Well, much of what has happened to black Americans hasn’t been fair, either. 

Go Beavers said much better what I fumbled - it’s about listening to people and thinking about it through their eyes and not just immediately dismissing it as silly or “a reason to be offended”. 

You know though you can listen to them and see it through their eyes and then still see something as a silly reason to be offended.

And one of my points is to suspend judgment. No need to label it silly when the person has sincere thoughts and feelings about it. You can witness another person’s experience and leave it as is, which is there experience. 

brianlux

Yes

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

Cultural appropriation is a bit tricky at times.  I mean, have dreads always been a black thing?  Don't they form naturally on anyone who has long hair and doesn't comb or brush?

On the other hand, things like Dream Catchers are definitely cultural appropriation.  It bugs the crap out of me when I see some blonde soccer mom with a Dream Catcher dangling from the rear view mirror.  It's ripping off someone's culture and obscuring their driving vision.  No!  Please don't do that!

That is weird though, because First Nations LOVE selling dreamcatchers to white people. You see them in every single gift shop on any reserve or at any native casino. I see First Nations people selling them from tables on the street in downtown Vancouver. So how can that possibly be cultural appropriation if they are using them as money makers by selling them to white people?? That makes no sense. I can't agree with the dream catcher theory because of this.

Oh, shame on those damn Canadian Indians! (AKA First Nation Peoples- funny that we have differing terminology)

No, all joking aside, really?  I don't think Native Americans down this way are in favor of doing that.  God, I hope not! 

I can't believe people still call them Indians at all. They have zero to do with India. We've known that for hundreds of years. And yet so many people still call them that. I find it so odd. 

Louis CK did an amazing bit on this actually. 

I've asked a few Native Americans and though by no means a consensus, I think a lot of them feel that the term "Native American" is less desirable than  Indian or American Indian.  A lot of the activist Native writers in the U.S. use the term "Indian".  I'm guessing many  of them feel like "Native American" is too much a white-invented term, and maybe too politically correct.  I think they took back the term "Indian" as their own.

Whatever they are called, the main thing to me is to respect that they have a distinct culture, to recognize that Europeans invaded their territories and cause a widespread genocide and to remember that they are people, like anyone else, no better no worse.

dionnesimone

I don't know what the answer is to this.

I spent many of my younger years in a neighborhood where I was a minority. I liked wearing braids because that is what my friends did. I liked the way they looked and wished I could wear them better.

I am also very fond of the meaning behind Dia de los Muertos. I have Hispanic friends that are hurt by the commercialization/appropriation of it.

I have a few Native American friends and family. Some don't like the Cleveland Indians logo, others that don't mind.

IDK...

josevolution

Yes

the 1st poll where we are all in agreement as far as , noone should tell any other person how they should wear their hair ...

brianlux

Yes

dionnesimone said:

I don't know what the answer is to this.

I spent many of my younger years in a neighborhood where I was a minority. I liked wearing braids because that is what my friends did. I liked the way they looked and wished I could wear them better.

I am also very fond of the meaning behind Dia de los Muertos. I have Hispanic friends that are hurt by the commercialization/appropriation of it.

I have a few Native American friends and family. Some don't like the Cleveland Indians logo, others that don't mind.

IDK...

It's not all so easy, is it!?

I'm not at all a fan of the sports logos like Indians,  Chiefs, etc.   I don't know why anybody ever thought that was a good idea.  Why do we not have The San Diego Whites, or the New York Caucasians or the Philadelphia Pinks?  

PJ_Soul

Yes

brianlux said:

dionnesimone said:

I don't know what the answer is to this.

I spent many of my younger years in a neighborhood where I was a minority. I liked wearing braids because that is what my friends did. I liked the way they looked and wished I could wear them better.

I am also very fond of the meaning behind Dia de los Muertos. I have Hispanic friends that are hurt by the commercialization/appropriation of it.

I have a few Native American friends and family. Some don't like the Cleveland Indians logo, others that don't mind.

IDK...

It's not all so easy, is it!?

I'm not at all a fan of the sports logos like Indians,  Chiefs, etc.   I don't know why anybody ever thought that was a good idea.  Why do we not have The San Diego Whites, or the New York Caucasians or the Philadelphia Pinks?  

Just because "white guy" or "pink guy" doesn't exactly conjure images of toughness or strength or coolness or anything at all. It's not like those teams were named Indians or Chiefs just to name them after Native people because of the colour of their skin. It was because these words made people think of strength and honour and history other good things that they would want attributed to their sports team (yes, I understand the sick irony of white people doing this, given the genocide committed by them). The closest white equivalent is, of course, the Dallas Cowboys.
I understand why some natives are offended by these team names and others aren't. There are obvious good and bad aspects to them, and one is kind of forced to pick a side.

dionnesimone

brianlux said:

dionnesimone said:

I don't know what the answer is to this.

I spent many of my younger years in a neighborhood where I was a minority. I liked wearing braids because that is what my friends did. I liked the way they looked and wished I could wear them better.

I am also very fond of the meaning behind Dia de los Muertos. I have Hispanic friends that are hurt by the commercialization/appropriation of it.

I have a few Native American friends and family. Some don't like the Cleveland Indians logo, others that don't mind.

IDK...

It's not all so easy, is it!?

I'm not at all a fan of the sports logos like Indians,  Chiefs, etc.   I don't know why anybody ever thought that was a good idea.  Why do we not have The San Diego Whites, or the New York Caucasians or the Philadelphia Pinks?  

I feel like the initial intention was to honor Louis Sockalexis of the Cleveland Spiders and in that line of thought, I like that they highlighted him. However, I can see where the depiction could be seen as a negative. I think the Cleveland team has heard a large majority of people saying that the logo is a problem, so they are changing it.

Jason P