I don't know why this has got me so worked up to the point I feel like I am going to have a panic attack and to the point I could not focus in class today. One of these girls walked into my class today (and that guy whose head she bit off yesterday). Gosh she looks like she has a chip on her shoulder. She kept looking over at me. Must have been my Mitchell & Ness beanie I had on. How dare I appropriate a beanie worn predominantly by African Americans. How racist and hypocritical of me. The tutor asked the class if anyone can give an example of cultural globalisation and I answered that people around the world adopt fashions from other cultures hoping it would lead to the dreadlocks debate again but it didn't.
I don't understand why I as a white guy cannot wear dreadlocks if I have never been racist towards a black person in my life, WTF! It's like reverse racism, generalising the racism of a group of white people towards all white people. GRRRRR! What if I am a big fan of Bob Marley and want to wear dreadlocks in homage to him?
Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
I think it's a much more complex issue than the comments here suggest. African American people had literally their entire culture stripped from them in a deliberate fashion, by people who stole their bodies, their labour, and their personhood. Black people have struggled to have anything from their culture seen as worthwhile when they own it themselves. They have been told that their hair is unattractive and unprofessional, and if you expect to work here you'd better get rid of those braids and straighten it to make it look "normal". To have white culture then casually pick and choose what they like from black culture when they feel like it and dismiss concerns as being "offended for the sake of being offended" must be pretty galling.
Please do not include me in this offending towards black people, I've never done so. I'm not casually picking and choosing. Can't call someone a hypocrite when they never behaved hypocritically.
Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
I don't know why this has got me so worked up to the point I feel like I am going to have a panic attack and to the point I could not focus in class today. One of these girls walked into my class today (and that guy whose head she bit off yesterday). Gosh she looks like she has a chip on her shoulder. She kept looking over at me. Must have been my Mitchell & Ness beanie I had on. How dare I appropriate a beanie worn predominantly by African Americans. How racist and hypocritical of me. The tutor asked the class if anyone can give an example of cultural globalisation and I answered that people around the world adopt fashions from other cultures hoping it would lead to the dreadlocks debate again but it didn't.
I don't understand why I as a white guy cannot wear dreadlocks if I have never been racist towards a black person in my life, WTF! It's like reverse racism, generalising the racism of a group of white people towards all white people. GRRRRR! What if I am a big fan of Bob Marley and want to wear dreadlocks in homage to him?
No, it's not reverse racism.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
I think it's a much more complex issue than the comments here suggest. African American people had literally their entire culture stripped from them in a deliberate fashion, by people who stole their bodies, their labour, and their personhood. Black people have struggled to have anything from their culture seen as worthwhile when they own it themselves. They have been told that their hair is unattractive and unprofessional, and if you expect to work here you'd better get rid of those braids and straighten it to make it look "normal". To have white culture then casually pick and choose what they like from black culture when they feel like it and dismiss concerns as being "offended for the sake of being offended" must be pretty galling.
ok, but why the outrage now? in the 90's, every second white teenager you saw had dreds or braids in their hair (like Dexter from The Offspring). no one seemed to care then. I guess i didn't see it as "culture appropriation". I saw it as a compliment to their culture.
I don't think it's up to white people to decide when black people are allowed to get "outraged", or when they have to "move on from the past" (I know that second bit is not in your post, but it's a common theme).
But it’s up to black people how a white person should wear their hair? Seems pretty dumb to me.
All it does is enforces this us and them mentality. Why can't we all share the same hair and fashion and just get along.
Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
I don’t know the right answer, but I think that in this instance, like a lot of things in life, some basic principles apply.
Just because you have have a “right” to do something doesn’t necessarily mean it is the right thing to do. No one is talking about making this illegal, so of course you have a “right” to do it, but too many people focus only on their rights and not enough on their responsibilities to society and other people. If you only focus on what you have a “right” to do, you may be an asshole.
Doing something just because you want to, despite consequences to anyone else, hasn’t created a particularly great society. Nor has it been particularly great for the planet, for that matter.
I guess I just don't see this as harmful. What I see as harmful is the caricaturization of their cultures. Like has been done to Native Americans and sports teams. Blackface is harmful. But being told you can't wear your hair a certain way because it marginilizes a group of people? I see that as taking it a bit far.
AGREED. It's just off the scale as to how far it is. It's just hair. Why can't they see the positive, "hey these white people like our hair styles, that's pretty cool"
Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,310
I spent many of my younger years in a neighborhood where I was a minority. I liked wearing braids because that is what my friends did. I liked the way they looked and wished I could wear them better.
I am also very fond of the meaning behind Dia de los Muertos. I have Hispanic friends that are hurt by the commercialization/appropriation of it.
I have a few Native American friends and family. Some don't like the Cleveland Indians logo, others that don't mind.
IDK...
It's not all so easy, is it!?
I'm not at all a fan of the sports logos like Indians, Chiefs, etc. I don't know why anybody ever thought that was a good idea. Why do we not have The San Diego Whites, or the New York Caucasians or the Philadelphia Pinks?
Just because "white guy" or "pink guy" doesn't exactly conjure images of toughness or strength or coolness or anything at all. It's not like those teams were named Indians or Chiefs just to name them after Native people because of the colour of their skin. It was because these words made people think of strength and honour and history other good things that they would want attributed to their sports team (yes, I understand the sick irony of white people doing this, given the genocide committed by them). The closest white equivalent is, of course, the Dallas Cowboys. I understand why some natives are offended by these team names and others aren't. There are obvious good and bad aspects to them, and one is kind of forced to pick a side.
Toughness? The American Indians lost most of the battles and they tended to be overly trusting. Not that that is a bad trait, not at all, but that won't help the team to win. Besides, the First Nation/ American Indians generally find those team names offensive so why not respect that and change them?
I spent many of my younger years in a neighborhood where I was a minority. I liked wearing braids because that is what my friends did. I liked the way they looked and wished I could wear them better.
I am also very fond of the meaning behind Dia de los Muertos. I have Hispanic friends that are hurt by the commercialization/appropriation of it.
I have a few Native American friends and family. Some don't like the Cleveland Indians logo, others that don't mind.
IDK...
It's not all so easy, is it!?
I'm not at all a fan of the sports logos like Indians, Chiefs, etc. I don't know why anybody ever thought that was a good idea. Why do we not have The San Diego Whites, or the New York Caucasians or the Philadelphia Pinks?
I feel like the initial intention was to honor Louis Sockalexis of the Cleveland Spiders and in that line of thought, I like that they highlighted him. However, I can see where the depiction could be seen as a negative. I think the Cleveland team has heard a large majority of people saying that the logo is a problem, so they are changing it.
Good on them!
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I have pretty much two reactions to the subject. First is that there is no harm done by suspending judgment on another persons reaction to appropriation and working toward listening and understanding where their reaction comes from. I think immediately discounting the reaction is a disservice.
Also, white people in the US have the privilege of deciding how things will go. This includes what words will be used, where we can go, what resources are ours, what land is ours, what neighborhoods are ours. Appropriation is an example of deciding something is ours. Yes it’s hair, but also can represent something larger to a minority. White people will take your music, your style, your hair, and your labor. But no they won’t have you in their neighborhood, their club, and you won’t have a seat at the table with the white businessmen.
That's laying an awful lot of responsibility on some white kid who wants dreads, don't you think?? I don't think that's fair.
Well, much of what has happened to black Americans hasn’t been fair, either.
Go Beavers said much better what I fumbled - it’s about listening to people and thinking about it through their eyes and not just immediately dismissing it as silly or “a reason to be offended”.
And we should feel guilty and responsible for their unfair treatment (even though we clearly are opposed to racism) because?
Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
I don't know why this has got me so worked up to the point I feel like I am going to have a panic attack and to the point I could not focus in class today. One of these girls walked into my class today (and that guy whose head she bit off yesterday). Gosh she looks like she has a chip on her shoulder. She kept looking over at me. Must have been my Mitchell & Ness beanie I had on. How dare I appropriate a beanie worn predominantly by African Americans. How racist and hypocritical of me. The tutor asked the class if anyone can give an example of cultural globalisation and I answered that people around the world adopt fashions from other cultures hoping it would lead to the dreadlocks debate again but it didn't.
I don't understand why I as a white guy cannot wear dreadlocks if I have never been racist towards a black person in my life, WTF! It's like reverse racism, generalising the racism of a group of white people towards all white people. GRRRRR! What if I am a big fan of Bob Marley and want to wear dreadlocks in homage to him?
No, it's not reverse racism.
Yes, it is. It's deeming all white people as nasty racists when they are not.
Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
Cultural appropriation is a bit tricky at times. I mean, have dreads always been a black thing? Don't they form naturally on anyone who has long hair and doesn't comb or brush?
On the other hand, things like Dream Catchers are definitely cultural appropriation. It bugs the crap out of me when I see some blonde soccer mom with a Dream Catcher dangling from the rear view mirror. It's ripping off someone's culture and obscuring their driving vision. No! Please don't do that!
That is weird though, because First Nations LOVE selling dreamcatchers to white people. You see them in every single gift shop on any reserve or at any native casino. I see First Nations people selling them from tables on the street in downtown Vancouver. So how can that possibly be cultural appropriation if they are using them as money makers by selling them to white people?? That makes no sense. I can't agree with the dream catcher theory because of this.
Oh, shame on those damn Canadian Indians! (AKA First Nation Peoples- funny that we have differing terminology)
No, all joking aside, really? I don't think Native Americans down this way are in favor of doing that. God, I hope not!
I can't believe people still call them Indians at all. They have zero to do with India. We've known that for hundreds of years. And yet so many people still call them that. I find it so odd.
Louis CK did an amazing bit on this actually.
Yeah, if anyone says Indians I'm automatically assuming they're talking about people from India. I find it very strange that that label still exists anywhere.
I see no issue with it. I use both. Basically say Indians when it’s clear the the context who I’m talking about, and NA when it isn’t. But as already pointed out, Natives aren’t offended by it, they are just told they should be by white people. Let them decide what’s offensive. It’s like that big push to not say black and use African American, then we realized black people didn’t care and now it’s okay again. And even though we’ve known for centuries it isn’t accurate, it’s part of culture and seems completely normal to me.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,310
Yes
Edward Abbey once basically said, "I don't judge people by the color of their skin or place of origin [etc.], I judge them by the quality of their mind." If we did that and accepted that we all come from different backgrounds and respected each others cultural heritage, we would not need to have this discussion at all.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I don't know why this has got me so worked up to the point I feel like I am going to have a panic attack and to the point I could not focus in class today. One of these girls walked into my class today (and that guy whose head she bit off yesterday). Gosh she looks like she has a chip on her shoulder. She kept looking over at me. Must have been my Mitchell & Ness beanie I had on. How dare I appropriate a beanie worn predominantly by African Americans. How racist and hypocritical of me. The tutor asked the class if anyone can give an example of cultural globalisation and I answered that people around the world adopt fashions from other cultures hoping it would lead to the dreadlocks debate again but it didn't.
I don't understand why I as a white guy cannot wear dreadlocks if I have never been racist towards a black person in my life, WTF! It's like reverse racism, generalising the racism of a group of white people towards all white people. GRRRRR! What if I am a big fan of Bob Marley and want to wear dreadlocks in homage to him?
No, it's not reverse racism.
Yes, it is. It's deeming all white people as nasty racists when they are not.
I don't know why this has got me so worked up to the point I feel like I am going to have a panic attack and to the point I could not focus in class today. One of these girls walked into my class today (and that guy whose head she bit off yesterday). Gosh she looks like she has a chip on her shoulder. She kept looking over at me. Must have been my Mitchell & Ness beanie I had on. How dare I appropriate a beanie worn predominantly by African Americans. How racist and hypocritical of me. The tutor asked the class if anyone can give an example of cultural globalisation and I answered that people around the world adopt fashions from other cultures hoping it would lead to the dreadlocks debate again but it didn't.
I don't understand why I as a white guy cannot wear dreadlocks if I have never been racist towards a black person in my life, WTF! It's like reverse racism, generalising the racism of a group of white people towards all white people. GRRRRR! What if I am a big fan of Bob Marley and want to wear dreadlocks in homage to him?
Who said white guys can’t have dreads? What you’re hearing is people’s reaction to white guys having dreads. If you want us to all get along, then dialogue with a black person about it or read what they have written about it.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,310
edited August 2018
Yes
The article linked below makes some sensible points. This one stood out:
Historians and anthropologists have
found evidence of the 'do in ancient Egypt, Germanic tribes, Vikings,
Pacific Islanders, early Christians, the Aborigines and the New Guineans
as well as the Somali, the Galla, the Maasai, the Ashanti and the
Fulani tribes of Africa.
As
University of Richmond professor Bert Ashe writes in "Twisted: My
Dreadlock Chronicles," the better question is, "Who hasn't worn
dreadlocks at one time or another?"
and
"...My research informed me that Indian monks wore them long before they
reached the Western Hemisphere, so I'm not sure anyone has any
particular claim."
So Thoughts, next time someone claims you are culturally appropriating blacks you can honestly say to them, "So I guess you also think I'm culturally appropriating Indian monks, Egyptians, people of Germanic tribes, Vikings,
Pacific Islanders, early Christians, Aborigines and the New Guineans
as well as the Somali, the Galla, the Maasai, the Ashanti and the
Fulani tribes of Africa?" That should cool their heels for a while!
Why can't it be seen as a celebration to other cultures ? You celebrate something you like by having things from other cultures. It's a sign of appreciation not something that should be taken negative. I would only feel proud other likes it too.
Why can't it be seen as a celebration to other cultures ? You celebrate something you like by having things from other cultures. It's a sign of appreciation not something that should be taken negative. I would only feel proud other likes it too.
Because historically white people haven’t celebrated other cultures but instead destroyed them. Look at a lot of white people’s current attitudes toward diversity for present day feelings if you din’t like mucking around in the past.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,310
Why can't it be seen as a celebration to other cultures ? You celebrate something you like by having things from other cultures. It's a sign of appreciation not something that should be taken negative. I would only feel proud other likes it too.
Because historically white people haven’t celebrated other cultures but instead destroyed them. Look at a lot of white people’s current attitudes toward diversity for present day feelings if you din’t like mucking around in the past.
Whites as a race have definitely done a fine job of messing with other cultures and I think we still have a lot of fessing up to do about that. There is no excuse for being (or feigning) ignorance about those past offense and some of the current attitudes.
But that said, I think there is a point where acknowledgment of grievances spills over into over-the-top political correctness. I mean, this is hair we're talking about. What about tattoos? Why are they not seen as crossing those bounds? I really don't know because I think the lines blur. But the people at Thoughts' school getting pissed off at a guy who is obviously not racist but dons a particular hairstyle, why? That seems like a waste of energy. I think some people need to pick their battles more wisely and focus their energy on something more worthwhile.
But I'm white. Maybe I would feel differently if I were black. Honestly, I hope I would feel the same as I do now.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Hatred and envying coming from either side, it won't lead to anything positive. They are going after the most open minded people also turning them possibly towards negative thinking they didn't have before.
I thought this article presented a good counter argument to many of the points made in this thread. It really boils down to inequality in the power structure. Until the power structure is more equalized then it will be appropriating another's culture. No one is saying that people are 'bad' or 'racist' for admiring black culture but when, as a white person, we say that it is silly for someone of color to be upset we perpetuate the system of inequality. I've followed you guys on these boards for a long time and know that there are a lot of good people who are not racist and would never intend for their cultural admiration to be deemed inappropriate but shouldn't we listen to the voices of people of color in regards to this issue rather than another white person? Doesn't mean you might not continue to wear the hairstyle but being open to having a dialogue with a person of color about why they might be bothered can only improve race relations.
Kinda interesting article....but it seems to say if you are white you cannot wear your hair in cornrows because police kill blacks, companies didn't make products for black for a long time, magazine sell "white beauty", etc.
While all of that is true, I still don't see how a white person's choice in hairstyle plays into that at all. It's pointing out all the real reasons the black community is upset and then using them as an excuse to be upset over hair. That's what it seems like to me.
Buying crafts made by First Nations people helps support them ... they are not offended by making money and a making living. You know since the europeans conquerers tried to wipe them out and are still treated poorly, they need to make a living somehow. So please support First Nations people's crafts...
Buying crafts made by First Nations people helps support them ... they are not offended by making money and a making living. You know since the europeans conquerers tried to wipe them out and are still treated poorly, they need to make a living somehow. So please support First Nations people's crafts...
Sure. I don't think anyone is arguing against buying the work of First Nations artists and artisans and paying a fair price. That's quite a different story than taking cultural elements and adopting them without consideration for their meaning and the larger implications. Even worse is buying rip-off "First Nations" work produced cheaply by non-aboriginal people, like the fake Cowichan sweaters.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
Kinda interesting article....but it seems to say if you are white you cannot wear your hair in cornrows because police kill blacks, companies didn't make products for black for a long time, magazine sell "white beauty", etc.
While all of that is true, I still don't see how a white person's choice in hairstyle plays into that at all. It's pointing out all the real reasons the black community is upset and then using them as an excuse to be upset over hair. That's what it seems like to me.
But thank you for posting, was good to read.
Valid point. Maybe they feel that cultural appropriation is where they're power lies therefore that is something they can control. Would be a great conversation to have.
Sorry I was having problems with quote feature!
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
Kinda interesting article....but it seems to say if you are white you cannot wear your hair in cornrows because police kill blacks, companies didn't make products for black for a long time, magazine sell "white beauty", etc.
While all of that is true, I still don't see how a white person's choice in hairstyle plays into that at all. It's pointing out all the real reasons the black community is upset and then using them as an excuse to be upset over hair. That's what it seems like to me.
But thank you for posting, was good to read.
Valid point. Maybe they feel that cultural appropriation is where they're power lies therefore that is something they can control. Would be a great conversation to have.
Sorry I was having problems with quote feature!
The one thing that unites us in AMT - problems with the quote feature.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
Kinda interesting article....but it seems to say if you are white you cannot wear your hair in cornrows because police kill blacks, companies didn't make products for black for a long time, magazine sell "white beauty", etc.
While all of that is true, I still don't see how a white person's choice in hairstyle plays into that at all. It's pointing out all the real reasons the black community is upset and then using them as an excuse to be upset over hair. That's what it seems like to me.
But thank you for posting, was good to read.
Valid point. Maybe they feel that cultural appropriation is where they're power lies therefore that is something they can control. Would be a great conversation to have.
Sorry I was having problems with quote feature!
The one thing that unites us in AMT - problems with the quote feature.
Kinda interesting article....but it seems to say if you are white you cannot wear your hair in cornrows because police kill blacks, companies didn't make products for black for a long time, magazine sell "white beauty", etc.
While all of that is true, I still don't see how a white person's choice in hairstyle plays into that at all. It's pointing out all the real reasons the black community is upset and then using them as an excuse to be upset over hair. That's what it seems like to me.
But thank you for posting, was good to read.
Valid point. Maybe they feel that cultural appropriation is where they're power lies therefore that is something they can control. Would be a great conversation to have.
Sorry I was having problems with quote feature!
The one thing that unites us in AMT - problems with the quote feature.
Comments
One of these girls walked into my class today (and that guy whose head she bit off yesterday). Gosh she looks like she has a chip on her shoulder.
She kept looking over at me. Must have been my Mitchell & Ness beanie I had on. How dare I appropriate a beanie worn predominantly by African Americans. How racist and hypocritical of me.
The tutor asked the class if anyone can give an example of cultural globalisation and I answered that people around the world adopt fashions from other cultures hoping it would lead to the dreadlocks debate again but it didn't.
I don't understand why I as a white guy cannot wear dreadlocks if I have never been racist towards a black person in my life, WTF!
It's like reverse racism, generalising the racism of a group of white people towards all white people.
GRRRRR!
What if I am a big fan of Bob Marley and want to wear dreadlocks in homage to him?
No, it's not reverse racism.
It's just off the scale as to how far it is.
It's just hair. Why can't they see the positive, "hey these white people like our hair styles, that's pretty cool"
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I hang my head in shame.
It's deeming all white people as nasty racists when they are not.
But as already pointed out, Natives aren’t offended by it, they are just told they should be by white people. Let them decide what’s offensive. It’s like that big push to not say black and use African American, then we realized black people didn’t care and now it’s okay again.
And even though we’ve known for centuries it isn’t accurate, it’s part of culture and seems completely normal to me.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_racism
I feel like I am being discriminated against because of the colour of my white skin.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I would only feel proud other likes it too.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/white-people-black-hairstyles/
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
While all of that is true, I still don't see how a white person's choice in hairstyle plays into that at all. It's pointing out all the real reasons the black community is upset and then using them as an excuse to be upset over hair. That's what it seems like to me.
But thank you for posting, was good to read.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE