No more war, no more hate.

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  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    Trivia before I go?
    "TO ANGER A CONSERVATIVE, LIE TO HIM. TO ANGER A LIBERAL, TELL HIM THE TRUTH"
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,309
    JC29856 said:
    Trivia before I go?
    "TO ANGER A CONSERVATIVE, LIE TO HIM. TO ANGER A LIBERAL, TELL HIM THE TRUTH"
    An interesting answer to an as yet unnamed thread?  Not sure how this relates to this one, JC.
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • PapPap Serres, Greece Posts: 29,181
    mace1229 said: Many, most, maybe even all were started by psychopaths. Think of all the millions who died for no reason on than just so we’d know the name Alexander the Great thousands of years later. 
    But when those armies came marching in and you knew the women would be raped and children put into slavery, would you be a psychopath to defend yourself?
    As a Greek (Macedonian), I have to reply to this totally weak comment. Your description of the atrocities is true, as in every war. But one has to admit that during his imperialistic endeavours Alexander the Great respected the cultures of the places he conquered. By that, I mean that his army didn't destroy important ancient sites (symbols of entire civilisations or even sacred places such as temples) or eliminate religions. And there are strong historical evidence regarding the attitude of his army. Security guards of museums or archaeological sites around the region of, for example, Afghanistan show their respect and admiration whenever a visitor presenting them with a Greek passport or ID. I believe that's something. With that being said, war crimes are war crimes, no matter their origins. But we have to put the conversation into a context, and stop treating all historical moments (wars) the same.
    Athens 2006 / Milton Keynes 2014 / London 1&2 2022 / Seattle 1&2 2024 / Dublin 2024 / Manchester 2024
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    JC29856 said:
    Trivia before I go?
    "TO ANGER A CONSERVATIVE, LIE TO HIM. TO ANGER A LIBERAL, TELL HIM THE TRUTH"

    Whoa, deep shit
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,484
    Pap said:
    mace1229 said: Many, most, maybe even all were started by psychopaths. Think of all the millions who died for no reason on than just so we’d know the name Alexander the Great thousands of years later. 
    But when those armies came marching in and you knew the women would be raped and children put into slavery, would you be a psychopath to defend yourself?
    As a Greek (Macedonian), I have to reply to this totally weak comment. Your description of the atrocities is true, as in every war. But one has to admit that during his imperialistic endeavours Alexander the Great respected the cultures of the places he conquered. By that, I mean that his army didn't destroy important ancient sites (symbols of entire civilisations or even sacred places such as temples) or eliminate religions. And there are strong historical evidence regarding the attitude of his army. Security guards of museums or archaeological sites around the region of, for example, Afghanistan show their respect and admiration whenever a visitor presenting them with a Greek passport or ID. I believe that's something. With that being said, war crimes are war crimes, no matter their origins. But we have to put the conversation into a context, and stop treating all historical moments (wars) the same.
    I'm not trying to sound condescending, but what was your point? I'm confused because you start by referring to my comment as a weak argument, then follow it by saying everything I said was true. Yes, Alexander treated his "enemies" better than most did, and allowed many of then to continue to govern themselves. That doesn't change my point of view on his endless war effort though.
    I was not trying to single out Macedonia, just pointing out many of the leaders, from ancient times until now, Alexander, Khan, Napoleon, Hitler, all allowed millions to die just so people would know their name. That is pyschopathic to me, it doesn't when it happened. 

  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    mace1229 said:
    Pap said:
    mace1229 said: Many, most, maybe even all were started by psychopaths. Think of all the millions who died for no reason on than just so we’d know the name Alexander the Great thousands of years later. 
    But when those armies came marching in and you knew the women would be raped and children put into slavery, would you be a psychopath to defend yourself?
    As a Greek (Macedonian), I have to reply to this totally weak comment. Your description of the atrocities is true, as in every war. But one has to admit that during his imperialistic endeavours Alexander the Great respected the cultures of the places he conquered. By that, I mean that his army didn't destroy important ancient sites (symbols of entire civilisations or even sacred places such as temples) or eliminate religions. And there are strong historical evidence regarding the attitude of his army. Security guards of museums or archaeological sites around the region of, for example, Afghanistan show their respect and admiration whenever a visitor presenting them with a Greek passport or ID. I believe that's something. With that being said, war crimes are war crimes, no matter their origins. But we have to put the conversation into a context, and stop treating all historical moments (wars) the same.
    I'm not trying to sound condescending, but what was your point? I'm confused because you start by referring to my comment as a weak argument, then follow it by saying everything I said was true. Yes, Alexander treated his "enemies" better than most did, and allowed many of then to continue to govern themselves. That doesn't change my point of view on his endless war effort though.
    I was not trying to single out Macedonia, just pointing out many of the leaders, from ancient times until now, Alexander, Khan, Napoleon, Hitler, all allowed millions to die just so people would know their name. That is pyschopathic to me, it doesn't when it happened. 

    So all US president can now be referred to as the modern Alexander the Great, except without the respect for other nations...because the US is involved in endless war mode...
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • PapPap Serres, Greece Posts: 29,181
    mace1229 said:
    I'm not trying to sound condescending, but what was your point?
    My point is summed up at the last sentence. All I'm trying to say is to examine each historical moment separately and avoid generalisations. For instance, it wouldn't be historically accurate to put the word enemies in quotation mark as if they were all part of Alexander the Great's imagination, because we weren't there to experience firsthand the attitude of the neighbours of his kingdom.
    Athens 2006 / Milton Keynes 2014 / London 1&2 2022 / Seattle 1&2 2024 / Dublin 2024 / Manchester 2024
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    edited April 2018
    fuck you america/britain and your lust for war ... bombing a wedding party in yemen!??? ... what you wouldn't do for a buck ... assholes

    edit;  you too france ...
    Post edited by polaris_x on
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    polaris_x said:
    fuck you america/britain and your lust for war ... bombing a wedding party in yemen!??? ... what you wouldn't do for a buck ... assholes

    edit;  you too france ...
    humanitarian bombs!


  • lastexitlondonlastexitlondon Posts: 14,136
    That is horrific. I can't mentally process that
    brixton 93
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    this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 28,615
    JC29856 said:
    polaris_x said:
    fuck you america/britain and your lust for war ... bombing a wedding party in yemen!??? ... what you wouldn't do for a buck ... assholes

    edit;  you too france ...
    humanitarian bombs!


    I'm not sure how the U.S. is lumped in with saudi arabia on this one.  were they u.s. f-16's flown by u.s. pilots?
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 28,615

    polaris_x said:
    fuck you america/britain and your lust for war ... bombing a wedding party in yemen!??? ... what you wouldn't do for a buck ... assholes

    edit;  you too france ...
    Again, put blame where blame is due and that is on saudi arabia.  Just because we sell weapons to them doesn't mean we are responsible for what they are doing in yemen.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,309
    Oh goody, more dead body photos! 

    Umm, yeah, we here in the west should be aware of how fortunate we are to not be in the midst of such horrors but I have to ask, what is the point of putting up pictures of dead babies and body parts?  To help put a stop to war?  To make us more jaded regarding violence?  For shock value?  Seriously, what is the point here?


    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • tbergstbergs Posts: 9,876
    mcgruff10 said:

    polaris_x said:
    fuck you america/britain and your lust for war ... bombing a wedding party in yemen!??? ... what you wouldn't do for a buck ... assholes

    edit;  you too france ...
    Again, put blame where blame is due and that is on saudi arabia.  Just because we sell weapons to them doesn't mean we are responsible for what they are doing in yemen.  
    Ehhh, I dont know about that. We have a choice on who we want to sell weapons and equipment to and understand enough about the political and culture issues occurring over there to have an idea of what will transpire. It's ignorant for the US to say otherwise. How many times have weapons been sold or given to other countries and then eventually those weapons are used to take innocent lives. This argument is better suited for the gun thread where no one wants to hold the manufacturers and gun dealers responsible for random Joe Blows atrocities of violence. That's at least a semi-plausible argument.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 9,876
    brianlux said:
    Oh goody, more dead body photos! 

    Umm, yeah, we here in the west should be aware of how fortunate we are to not be in the midst of such horrors but I have to ask, what is the point of putting up pictures of dead babies and body parts?  To help put a stop to war?  To make us more jaded regarding violence?  For shock value?  Seriously, what is the point here?


    Exactly. I don't need to see the dead bodies oversees or here in the US of everyday violence that takes place to know that it happens and is horrific. Show it to the people who are chanting for war and violence. Make them see what they are promoting. I think that is deserved.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,309
    tbergs said:
    brianlux said:
    Oh goody, more dead body photos! 

    Umm, yeah, we here in the west should be aware of how fortunate we are to not be in the midst of such horrors but I have to ask, what is the point of putting up pictures of dead babies and body parts?  To help put a stop to war?  To make us more jaded regarding violence?  For shock value?  Seriously, what is the point here?


    Exactly. I don't need to see the dead bodies oversees or here in the US of everyday violence that takes place to know that it happens and is horrific. Show it to the people who are chanting for war and violence. Make them see what they are promoting. I think that is deserved.
    Right on, t.
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    mcgruff10 said:

    polaris_x said:
    fuck you america/britain and your lust for war ... bombing a wedding party in yemen!??? ... what you wouldn't do for a buck ... assholes

    edit;  you too france ...
    Again, put blame where blame is due and that is on saudi arabia.  Just because we sell weapons to them doesn't mean we are responsible for what they are doing in yemen.  
    Are you serious?  The US provides intelligence  and refuels coalition jets in the battle with Yemen.  That's a couple things for you.  Now the US and Canada both sell Saudi Arabia weapons...
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 28,615
    mcgruff10 said:

    polaris_x said:
    fuck you america/britain and your lust for war ... bombing a wedding party in yemen!??? ... what you wouldn't do for a buck ... assholes

    edit;  you too france ...
    Again, put blame where blame is due and that is on saudi arabia.  Just because we sell weapons to them doesn't mean we are responsible for what they are doing in yemen.  
    Are you serious?  The US provides intelligence  and refuels coalition jets in the battle with Yemen.  That's a couple things for you.  Now the US and Canada both sell Saudi Arabia weapons...
    Yeah I'm pretty serious.  I like to hold accountable the people who actually do the action.  Saudi Arabia dropped the bombs so blame them not us.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 49,989
    tbergs said:
    brianlux said:
    Oh goody, more dead body photos! 

    Umm, yeah, we here in the west should be aware of how fortunate we are to not be in the midst of such horrors but I have to ask, what is the point of putting up pictures of dead babies and body parts?  To help put a stop to war?  To make us more jaded regarding violence?  For shock value?  Seriously, what is the point here?


    Exactly. I don't need to see the dead bodies oversees or here in the US of everyday violence that takes place to know that it happens and is horrific. Show it to the people who are chanting for war and violence. Make them see what they are promoting. I think that is deserved.
    To be fair, not everyone has as much insight or the intellectual ability to accept a reality that they can't see. I think some people really do have to actually see the horrific results of violence to have any kind of grasp of what's happening. For some, if they don't see stuff like that, then they aren't really able to understand what's going on, or feel so completely disconnected from it that they don't give it a second thought.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 9,876
    edited April 2018
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    polaris_x said:
    fuck you america/britain and your lust for war ... bombing a wedding party in yemen!??? ... what you wouldn't do for a buck ... assholes

    edit;  you too france ...
    Again, put blame where blame is due and that is on saudi arabia.  Just because we sell weapons to them doesn't mean we are responsible for what they are doing in yemen.  
    Are you serious?  The US provides intelligence  and refuels coalition jets in the battle with Yemen.  That's a couple things for you.  Now the US and Canada both sell Saudi Arabia weapons...
    Yeah I'm pretty serious.  I like to hold accountable the people who actually do the action.  Saudi Arabia dropped the bombs so blame them not us.  
    Let me ask you this, would you hold someone responsible who had a reasonable belief or idea that unwanted violence/death could occur? On a much smaller scale, I would compare the US selling weapons to warring nations and knowing there will be innocent victims to the father who returned his son's guns to him knowing what he did about his son's history.

    Even if that is not the intention, there is a responsibility that should be placed on the enabling party involved in the equation. In both instances, negligence exists with the provider of the weapons. Much like the US was negligent to use Agent Orange in Vietnam. 
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    polaris_x said:
    fuck you america/britain and your lust for war ... bombing a wedding party in yemen!??? ... what you wouldn't do for a buck ... assholes

    edit;  you too france ...
    Again, put blame where blame is due and that is on saudi arabia.  Just because we sell weapons to them doesn't mean we are responsible for what they are doing in yemen.  
    Are you serious?  The US provides intelligence  and refuels coalition jets in the battle with Yemen.  That's a couple things for you.  Now the US and Canada both sell Saudi Arabia weapons...
    Yeah I'm pretty serious.  I like to hold accountable the people who actually do the action.  Saudi Arabia dropped the bombs so blame them not us.  
    If you are providing them intelligence, refuelling the jets and selling weapons, you are complicit, and you likely have special forces on the ground  ... Canada is also complicit, but to a much lesser degree.  
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 49,989
    edited April 2018
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    polaris_x said:
    fuck you america/britain and your lust for war ... bombing a wedding party in yemen!??? ... what you wouldn't do for a buck ... assholes

    edit;  you too france ...
    Again, put blame where blame is due and that is on saudi arabia.  Just because we sell weapons to them doesn't mean we are responsible for what they are doing in yemen.  
    Are you serious?  The US provides intelligence  and refuels coalition jets in the battle with Yemen.  That's a couple things for you.  Now the US and Canada both sell Saudi Arabia weapons...
    Yeah I'm pretty serious.  I like to hold accountable the people who actually do the action.  Saudi Arabia dropped the bombs so blame them not us.  
    There is definitely plenty of blame to spread around. I don't even think it's responsible to try and narrow this down to one ultimate culprit. With things like this there are a ton of players, and every single one has its own role in it. Without any one of them, things would be different, and very possibly better (or worse!).
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    Yet the U.S. and Great Britain have continued to support the coalition, mainly with weapons sales and logistical help. (A small contingent of U.S. Special Forces fights Al Qaeda militants in the south of the country.) Without foreign assistance, it would be very difficult for the Saudis to wage war. As casualties mount, legislators in the U.S. have begun to question support for the Saudis. Nonetheless, the Administration of Donald Trump has refused to criticize the kingdom.

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/01/22/how-the-us-is-making-the-war-in-yemen-worse

  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 28,615
    tbergs said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    polaris_x said:
    fuck you america/britain and your lust for war ... bombing a wedding party in yemen!??? ... what you wouldn't do for a buck ... assholes

    edit;  you too france ...
    Again, put blame where blame is due and that is on saudi arabia.  Just because we sell weapons to them doesn't mean we are responsible for what they are doing in yemen.  
    Are you serious?  The US provides intelligence  and refuels coalition jets in the battle with Yemen.  That's a couple things for you.  Now the US and Canada both sell Saudi Arabia weapons...
    Yeah I'm pretty serious.  I like to hold accountable the people who actually do the action.  Saudi Arabia dropped the bombs so blame them not us.  
    Let me ask you this, would you hold someone responsible who had a reasonable belief or idea that unwanted violence/death could occur? On a much smaller scale, I would compare the US selling weapons to warring nations and knowing there will be innocent victims to the father who returned his son's guns to him knowing what he did about his son's history.

    Even if that is not the intention, there is a responsibility that should be placed on the enabling party involved in the equation. In both instances, negligence exists with the provider of the weapons. Much like the US was negligent to use Agent Orange in Vietnam. 
    I disagree, I honestly don't think the u.s. can be blamed for the two attacks brought up in this thread over the past two days.  From what I've read the bombs we sold them are actually more precise and should lessen civilian deaths since they are that much more accurate that what the Saudis had.  I'm guessing the Saudi's received intelligence and it was their call to proceed with the attack.  

    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/07/opinions/congress-saudi-funding-yemen-opinion-hartung/index.html
    The vehicle for congressional action is a bipartisan bill introduced last week by Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vermont, Sen. Mike Lee, R-Utah, and Sen. Chris Murphy, D-Connecticut. The bill would end US refueling and targeting assistance for Saudi Arabia's bombing, aimed at Houthi rebels in Yemen, unless such actions are authorized by Congress.
    US support for the Saudis -- which includes refueling of Saudi combat aircraft and assistance in choosing bombing targets -- is an act of war as defined by section 8 (c) of the War Powers Resolution. That 1973 law requires congressional approval of any such action, as a way to curb the President's ability to launch a war unilaterally.
    Action to end US support for Saudi Arabia's shameful military campaign in Yemen is long overdue. The Saudi regime has used US-supplied aircraft, bombs and missiles to carry out attacks, resulting in thousands of unnecessary deaths when civilian targets such as hospitals, marketplaces, residential neighborhoods and even a funeral were hit.
    Even worse, a blockade of Yemen imposed by the Saudi-led coalition has put millions of people at risk of what could become the worst famine the world has seen in decades. In addition, intensive bombing of civilian infrastructure, including water and sewer systems, has resulted in the worst cholera outbreak in living memory.

  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 28,615
    Cool opinion article.  

    Here is the legal justification Obama and Trump are using:

    The US began supporting the Saudi-led coalition through a decision by then-US President Barack Obama, who cited the Authorisation for Use of Military Force (AUMF) to justify US involvement.

    Since taking office, President Donald Trump has done the same.

    Passed in 2001, the AUMF gives the president the power to "use force" against all "nations, organisations, or persons he determines planned, authorised, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001".

    It has since been used as legal justification to involve the US in various conflicts around the world, including Iraq, Afghanistan and Somalia. 

    For more than a decade, the US has carried out air attacks against al-Qaeda bases across Yemen, using the AUMF as a pretext.

    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    mcgruff10 said:
    Cool opinion article.  

    Here is the legal justification Obama and Trump are using:

    The US began supporting the Saudi-led coalition through a decision by then-US President Barack Obama, who cited the Authorisation for Use of Military Force (AUMF) to justify US involvement.

    Since taking office, President Donald Trump has done the same.

    Passed in 2001, the AUMF gives the president the power to "use force" against all "nations, organisations, or persons he determines planned, authorised, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001".

    It has since been used as legal justification to involve the US in various conflicts around the world, including Iraq, Afghanistan and Somalia. 

    For more than a decade, the US has carried out air attacks against al-Qaeda bases across Yemen, using the AUMF as a pretext.

    brilliant, you think the bill referenced above could require congressional approval?

    The U.S., of course, counts Saudi Arabia as one of its strongest allies in the region, and has not only provided hundreds of billions of dollars in arms to that petro-monarchy – which then get used in Yemen – but is also providing the Saudi coalition with intelligence and plane-refueling support. It may not have soldiers on the ground firing bullets in what amounts to a civil war with outside participation, but the U.S. is complicit in the Yemeni disaster. It throws in some drone strikes against militant groups for good measure, to add to the carnage and destruction.

    Like so many armed conflicts in which the U.S. has engaged in recent years, this one was never approved by Congress or even debated publicly before the American people in a real way.
  • lastexitlondonlastexitlondon Posts: 14,136
    Actually pj soul has a valid point about seeing the outcome of what is happening because it sure has shocked me. Whoever is responsible .
    Also i hate uk selling arms to anywhere. It needs to stop
    brixton 93
    astoria 06
    albany 06
    hartford 06
    reading 06
    barcelona 06
    paris 06
    wembley 07
    dusseldorf 07
    nijmegen 07

    this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    edited April 2018
    Actually pj soul has a valid point about seeing the outcome of what is happening because it sure has shocked me. Whoever is responsible .
    Also i hate uk selling arms to anywhere. It needs to stop
    If you want to see some more check this guys twitter...he posts a before and after of a 4 year old that was hit with a humanitarian missile

    Post edited by JC29856 on
  • lastexitlondonlastexitlondon Posts: 14,136
    No its ok. I just mean shock can provoke action
    brixton 93
    astoria 06
    albany 06
    hartford 06
    reading 06
    barcelona 06
    paris 06
    wembley 07
    dusseldorf 07
    nijmegen 07

    this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
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