Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

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  • Cropduster-80
    Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited May 2022
    mrussel1 said:
    Cropduster-80 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I’ve been hearing things like interracial marriage, contraceptives, segregation are all next.
    Abortion has been a big topic of nearly every election for as long as I can remember. I can’t recall a single person wanting to ban contraceptives. I can’t think of anyone I can name saying interracial marriage should end. But yet I’m seeing and hearing these claims all over social media and the news today. Where are people getting these ideas? Who wants to end contraceptives?
    The rationale for Roe is  the same rationale for contraception, interracial marriage, same sex marriage, consensual sexual acts between consenting adults within the confines of their home.

    the concept that personal decisions residing with the individual not the state and a right to privacy is the same principle in all of those cases.  If you eliminate that fundamental principle it opens the door to pass laws banning interracial marriages again if a state was so inclined. At it’s core Roe is more about a constitutional right to privacy than it is about abortion.  

    you will absolutely see things reguarding the gay community tested again because of this.  Marriage, sex etc . Gay sex used to be illegal. It could be again.  Look at all the anti LGBTQ laws passed just in the last 12 months.

    some in the religious right are just as against contraception as they are about abortion.  For the last 50 years, the logical conclusion to reduce abortions is to prevent pregnancy in the first place.  However they do their best to also limit contraception and education on contraception.  It’s entirely plausible that they go after availability of contraception as they have already been fighting contraception being covered on health insurance for the last decade.  
    Yes, you’re right across the board.  However this could be a bit of the dog catching the car.  These issues are settled as a national, moral consensus, including abortion.  The Christian Right has its victory, but as these issues get waged locally now, every single delegate and governor race will be about abortion, gay marriage, all of these privacy issues.  I actually do not think this is a winner for them long term.  The country is not getting less pro choice, less gay marriage or less pro contraception.
    Politically speaking it’s the only thing that may prevent the democrats being wiped out in the midterms.  At a minimum it will probably put a cap on the losses.  The left and independents now have an issue.  Pro choice was always less of a single issue voter issue than pro life simply because the right to an abortion was already the status quo.  Now that it’s not a lot of pro choice independents and republicans may have no choice other than to jump ship.  I hope so at least 

    the ultimate irony is overturning Roe the opinion states that this issue needs to be returned to the states to decide. However if the Republicans take the house and senate on day 1 a federal law banning abortion in all states will be introduced taking that right away from individual states.  Biden would veto so that’s safe for at least 2 years. 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • cblock4life
    cblock4life Posts: 1,855
    As a woman, I want to just take a moment and say thank you to all the men on this forum supporting the right to choose.  It doesn’t matter if you agree or disagree with the physical act of abortion, what matters to me is that women are recognized as humans who no longer deserve our freedoms taken away.  This isn’t the same as choosing whether or not to be vaccinated, an abortion isn’t contaminating anyone but the woman.  

    And to those who don’t understand how this is going to change everything like gender identification, gay marriage etc., get your head out of your ass because this is just the beginning.  
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,893
    Cropduster-80 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Cropduster-80 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I’ve been hearing things like interracial marriage, contraceptives, segregation are all next.
    Abortion has been a big topic of nearly every election for as long as I can remember. I can’t recall a single person wanting to ban contraceptives. I can’t think of anyone I can name saying interracial marriage should end. But yet I’m seeing and hearing these claims all over social media and the news today. Where are people getting these ideas? Who wants to end contraceptives?
    The rationale for Roe is  the same rationale for contraception, interracial marriage, same sex marriage, consensual sexual acts between consenting adults within the confines of their home.

    the concept that personal decisions residing with the individual not the state and a right to privacy is the same principle in all of those cases.  If you eliminate that fundamental principle it opens the door to pass laws banning interracial marriages again if a state was so inclined. At it’s core Roe is more about a constitutional right to privacy than it is about abortion.  

    you will absolutely see things reguarding the gay community tested again because of this.  Marriage, sex etc . Gay sex used to be illegal. It could be again.  Look at all the anti LGBTQ laws passed just in the last 12 months.

    some in the religious right are just as against contraception as they are about abortion.  For the last 50 years, the logical conclusion to reduce abortions is to prevent pregnancy in the first place.  However they do their best to also limit contraception and education on contraception.  It’s entirely plausible that they go after availability of contraception as they have already been fighting contraception being covered on health insurance for the last decade.  
    Yes, you’re right across the board.  However this could be a bit of the dog catching the car.  These issues are settled as a national, moral consensus, including abortion.  The Christian Right has its victory, but as these issues get waged locally now, every single delegate and governor race will be about abortion, gay marriage, all of these privacy issues.  I actually do not think this is a winner for them long term.  The country is not getting less pro choice, less gay marriage or less pro contraception.
    Politically speaking it’s the only thing that may prevent the democrats being wiped out in the midterms.  At a minimum it will probably put a cap on the losses.  The left and independents now have an issue.  Pro choice was always less of a single issue voter issue than pro life simply because the right to an abortion was already the status quo.  Now that it’s not a lot of pro choice independents and republicans may have no choice other than to jump ship.  I hope so at least 

    the ultimate irony is overturning Roe the opinion states that this issue needs to be returned to the states to decide. However if the Republicans take the house and senate on day 1 a federal law banning abortion in all states will be introduced taking that right away from individual states.  Biden would veto so that’s safe for at least 2 years. 
    It will be interesting to see if the senate tries to do something, with help on the filibuster from Murkowski and Collins.  They both came out and called two justices liars yesterday.  That’s pretty unprecedented.  It’s also naive and we all knew it.
  • Merkin Baller
    Merkin Baller Posts: 12,818
    cblock4life said:
    As a woman, I want to just take a moment and say thank you to all the men on this forum supporting the right to choose.  It doesn’t matter if you agree or disagree with the physical act of abortion, what matters to me is that women are recognized as humans who no longer deserve our freedoms taken away.  This isn’t the same as choosing whether or not to be vaccinated, an abortion isn’t contaminating anyone but the woman.  

    And to those who don’t understand how this is going to change everything like gender identification, gay marriage etc., get your head out of your ass because this is just the beginning.  
    Hear hear. 
  • Cropduster-80
    Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited May 2022
    mrussel1 said:
    Cropduster-80 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Cropduster-80 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I’ve been hearing things like interracial marriage, contraceptives, segregation are all next.
    Abortion has been a big topic of nearly every election for as long as I can remember. I can’t recall a single person wanting to ban contraceptives. I can’t think of anyone I can name saying interracial marriage should end. But yet I’m seeing and hearing these claims all over social media and the news today. Where are people getting these ideas? Who wants to end contraceptives?
    The rationale for Roe is  the same rationale for contraception, interracial marriage, same sex marriage, consensual sexual acts between consenting adults within the confines of their home.

    the concept that personal decisions residing with the individual not the state and a right to privacy is the same principle in all of those cases.  If you eliminate that fundamental principle it opens the door to pass laws banning interracial marriages again if a state was so inclined. At it’s core Roe is more about a constitutional right to privacy than it is about abortion.  

    you will absolutely see things reguarding the gay community tested again because of this.  Marriage, sex etc . Gay sex used to be illegal. It could be again.  Look at all the anti LGBTQ laws passed just in the last 12 months.

    some in the religious right are just as against contraception as they are about abortion.  For the last 50 years, the logical conclusion to reduce abortions is to prevent pregnancy in the first place.  However they do their best to also limit contraception and education on contraception.  It’s entirely plausible that they go after availability of contraception as they have already been fighting contraception being covered on health insurance for the last decade.  
    Yes, you’re right across the board.  However this could be a bit of the dog catching the car.  These issues are settled as a national, moral consensus, including abortion.  The Christian Right has its victory, but as these issues get waged locally now, every single delegate and governor race will be about abortion, gay marriage, all of these privacy issues.  I actually do not think this is a winner for them long term.  The country is not getting less pro choice, less gay marriage or less pro contraception.
    Politically speaking it’s the only thing that may prevent the democrats being wiped out in the midterms.  At a minimum it will probably put a cap on the losses.  The left and independents now have an issue.  Pro choice was always less of a single issue voter issue than pro life simply because the right to an abortion was already the status quo.  Now that it’s not a lot of pro choice independents and republicans may have no choice other than to jump ship.  I hope so at least 

    the ultimate irony is overturning Roe the opinion states that this issue needs to be returned to the states to decide. However if the Republicans take the house and senate on day 1 a federal law banning abortion in all states will be introduced taking that right away from individual states.  Biden would veto so that’s safe for at least 2 years. 
    It will be interesting to see if the senate tries to do something, with help on the filibuster from Murkowski and Collins.  They both came out and called two justices liars yesterday.  That’s pretty unprecedented.  It’s also naive and we all knew it.
    To me there is a huge risk if an electoral rebuke doesn’t happen.  It’s going to embolden all kinds of hard right policies.  Ending the filibuster could happen with 49 democrats  and either Collins or Murkowski to pass a federal law guaranteeing the right to an abortion but the republicans could just overturn it down the road. Making them pay politically and they just may back off

    Too many people vote for the right wing politicians because they agree with them on fiscal issues but not social issues.  The American public at large isn’t with the right on nearly any culture war/social issue but finances are real, and social issues are abstract unless it directly affects you.  Getting social issues to have equal weight is the key if it doesn’t get equal weight who knows what happens 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,893
    Cropduster-80 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Cropduster-80 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Cropduster-80 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I’ve been hearing things like interracial marriage, contraceptives, segregation are all next.
    Abortion has been a big topic of nearly every election for as long as I can remember. I can’t recall a single person wanting to ban contraceptives. I can’t think of anyone I can name saying interracial marriage should end. But yet I’m seeing and hearing these claims all over social media and the news today. Where are people getting these ideas? Who wants to end contraceptives?
    The rationale for Roe is  the same rationale for contraception, interracial marriage, same sex marriage, consensual sexual acts between consenting adults within the confines of their home.

    the concept that personal decisions residing with the individual not the state and a right to privacy is the same principle in all of those cases.  If you eliminate that fundamental principle it opens the door to pass laws banning interracial marriages again if a state was so inclined. At it’s core Roe is more about a constitutional right to privacy than it is about abortion.  

    you will absolutely see things reguarding the gay community tested again because of this.  Marriage, sex etc . Gay sex used to be illegal. It could be again.  Look at all the anti LGBTQ laws passed just in the last 12 months.

    some in the religious right are just as against contraception as they are about abortion.  For the last 50 years, the logical conclusion to reduce abortions is to prevent pregnancy in the first place.  However they do their best to also limit contraception and education on contraception.  It’s entirely plausible that they go after availability of contraception as they have already been fighting contraception being covered on health insurance for the last decade.  
    Yes, you’re right across the board.  However this could be a bit of the dog catching the car.  These issues are settled as a national, moral consensus, including abortion.  The Christian Right has its victory, but as these issues get waged locally now, every single delegate and governor race will be about abortion, gay marriage, all of these privacy issues.  I actually do not think this is a winner for them long term.  The country is not getting less pro choice, less gay marriage or less pro contraception.
    Politically speaking it’s the only thing that may prevent the democrats being wiped out in the midterms.  At a minimum it will probably put a cap on the losses.  The left and independents now have an issue.  Pro choice was always less of a single issue voter issue than pro life simply because the right to an abortion was already the status quo.  Now that it’s not a lot of pro choice independents and republicans may have no choice other than to jump ship.  I hope so at least 

    the ultimate irony is overturning Roe the opinion states that this issue needs to be returned to the states to decide. However if the Republicans take the house and senate on day 1 a federal law banning abortion in all states will be introduced taking that right away from individual states.  Biden would veto so that’s safe for at least 2 years. 
    It will be interesting to see if the senate tries to do something, with help on the filibuster from Murkowski and Collins.  They both came out and called two justices liars yesterday.  That’s pretty unprecedented.  It’s also naive and we all knew it.
    To me there is a huge risk if an electoral rebuke doesn’t happen.  It’s going to embolden all kinds of hard right policies.  

    Too many people vote for the right wing politicians because they agree with them on fiscal issues but not social issues.  The American public at large isn’t with the right on nearly any culture war/social issue but finances are real, and social issues are abstract unless it directly affects you.  Getting social issues to have equal weight is the key if it doesn’t get equal weight who knows what happens 
    Of course the irony is there’s little difference in the economic policies between the two parties.  The only real difference is renewable energy but even that is abstract as well.  
  • Bentleyspop
    Bentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, Colorado Posts: 11,481
    cblock4life said:
    As a woman, I want to just take a moment and say thank you to all the men on this forum supporting the right to choose.  It doesn’t matter if you agree or disagree with the physical act of abortion, what matters to me is that women are recognized as humans who no longer deserve our freedoms taken away.  This isn’t the same as choosing whether or not to be vaccinated, an abortion isn’t contaminating anyone but the woman.  

    And to those who don’t understand how this is going to change everything like gender identification, gay marriage etc., get your head out of your ass because this is just the beginning.  
    You are correct on all points. 

    What I can't  believe is that in 2022 I still have to explain to people that being pro-choice is not the same as pro-abortion.
    That nobody is "yay abortions".

  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,853
    Cropduster-80 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I’ve been hearing things like interracial marriage, contraceptives, segregation are all next.
    Abortion has been a big topic of nearly every election for as long as I can remember. I can’t recall a single person wanting to ban contraceptives. I can’t think of anyone I can name saying interracial marriage should end. But yet I’m seeing and hearing these claims all over social media and the news today. Where are people getting these ideas? Who wants to end contraceptives?
    The rationale for Roe is  the same rationale for contraception, interracial marriage, same sex marriage, consensual sexual acts between consenting adults within the confines of their home.

    the concept that personal decisions residing with the individual not the state and a right to privacy is the same principle in all of those cases.  If you eliminate that fundamental principle it opens the door to pass laws banning interracial marriages again if a state was so inclined. At it’s core Roe is more about a constitutional right to privacy than it is about abortion.  

    you will absolutely see things reguarding the gay community tested again because of this.  Marriage, sex etc . Gay sex used to be illegal. It could be again.  Look at all the anti LGBTQ laws passed just in the last 12 months.

    some in the religious right are just as against contraception as they are about abortion.  For the last 50 years, the logical conclusion to reduce abortions is to prevent pregnancy in the first place.  However they do their best to also limit contraception and education on contraception.  It’s entirely plausible that they go after availability of contraception as they have already been fighting contraception being covered on health insurance for the last decade.  
    I disagree 100%. There has never been a movement to ban contraceptives or interracial marriage in my lifetime. I can’t name a single person who is for those things. There has always been a movement to ban abortion. A pretty big movement actually. I saw stats used the last couple days. They vary pretty drastically depending on guidelines or exceptions included. But it isn’t too far from a 50/50 split when you factor in exceptions for rape, incest, Heath reasons, etc. So Just because the door is opened for abortion doesnt mean every other issue will be next when no one is seeking those things.
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,893
    mace1229 said:
    Cropduster-80 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I’ve been hearing things like interracial marriage, contraceptives, segregation are all next.
    Abortion has been a big topic of nearly every election for as long as I can remember. I can’t recall a single person wanting to ban contraceptives. I can’t think of anyone I can name saying interracial marriage should end. But yet I’m seeing and hearing these claims all over social media and the news today. Where are people getting these ideas? Who wants to end contraceptives?
    The rationale for Roe is  the same rationale for contraception, interracial marriage, same sex marriage, consensual sexual acts between consenting adults within the confines of their home.

    the concept that personal decisions residing with the individual not the state and a right to privacy is the same principle in all of those cases.  If you eliminate that fundamental principle it opens the door to pass laws banning interracial marriages again if a state was so inclined. At it’s core Roe is more about a constitutional right to privacy than it is about abortion.  

    you will absolutely see things reguarding the gay community tested again because of this.  Marriage, sex etc . Gay sex used to be illegal. It could be again.  Look at all the anti LGBTQ laws passed just in the last 12 months.

    some in the religious right are just as against contraception as they are about abortion.  For the last 50 years, the logical conclusion to reduce abortions is to prevent pregnancy in the first place.  However they do their best to also limit contraception and education on contraception.  It’s entirely plausible that they go after availability of contraception as they have already been fighting contraception being covered on health insurance for the last decade.  
    I disagree 100%. There has never been a movement to ban contraceptives or interracial marriage in my lifetime. I can’t name a single person who is for those things. There has always been a movement to ban abortion. A pretty big movement actually. I saw stats used the last couple days. They vary pretty drastically depending on guidelines or exceptions included. But it isn’t too far from a 50/50 split when you factor in exceptions for rape, incest, Heath reasons, etc. So Just because the door is opened for abortion doesnt mean every other issue will be next when no one is seeking those things.
    What's the difference from a legal standpoint? If there is no constitutional right to privacy and no long held history,  what stops a state from prohibiting gay marriage, interracial marriage or anything that the religious right from passing a law? There's literally nothing preventing a state from doing so. 
  • Cropduster-80
    Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited May 2022
    Bentleyspop said:
    cblock4life said:
    As a woman, I want to just take a moment and say thank you to all the men on this forum supporting the right to choose.  It doesn’t matter if you agree or disagree with the physical act of abortion, what matters to me is that women are recognized as humans who no longer deserve our freedoms taken away.  This isn’t the same as choosing whether or not to be vaccinated, an abortion isn’t contaminating anyone but the woman.  

    And to those who don’t understand how this is going to change everything like gender identification, gay marriage etc., get your head out of your ass because this is just the beginning.  
    You are correct on all points. 

    What I can't  believe is that in 2022 I still have to explain to people that being pro-choice is not the same as pro-abortion.
    That nobody is "yay abortions".

    Pro choice is actually the “conservative” position if it was any other issue.

    freedom of choice, individual liberty, etc Vs government deciding for you.  Insert any other issue… vaccines, masking, gun rights, regulation, health insurance mandates, etc.  personal choice is almost always the conservative position not government overreach 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • OnWis97
    OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 5,622
    mace1229 said:
    Cropduster-80 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I’ve been hearing things like interracial marriage, contraceptives, segregation are all next.
    Abortion has been a big topic of nearly every election for as long as I can remember. I can’t recall a single person wanting to ban contraceptives. I can’t think of anyone I can name saying interracial marriage should end. But yet I’m seeing and hearing these claims all over social media and the news today. Where are people getting these ideas? Who wants to end contraceptives?
    The rationale for Roe is  the same rationale for contraception, interracial marriage, same sex marriage, consensual sexual acts between consenting adults within the confines of their home.

    the concept that personal decisions residing with the individual not the state and a right to privacy is the same principle in all of those cases.  If you eliminate that fundamental principle it opens the door to pass laws banning interracial marriages again if a state was so inclined. At it’s core Roe is more about a constitutional right to privacy than it is about abortion.  

    you will absolutely see things reguarding the gay community tested again because of this.  Marriage, sex etc . Gay sex used to be illegal. It could be again.  Look at all the anti LGBTQ laws passed just in the last 12 months.

    some in the religious right are just as against contraception as they are about abortion.  For the last 50 years, the logical conclusion to reduce abortions is to prevent pregnancy in the first place.  However they do their best to also limit contraception and education on contraception.  It’s entirely plausible that they go after availability of contraception as they have already been fighting contraception being covered on health insurance for the last decade.  
    I disagree 100%. There has never been a movement to ban contraceptives or interracial marriage in my lifetime. I can’t name a single person who is for those things. There has always been a movement to ban abortion. A pretty big movement actually. I saw stats used the last couple days. They vary pretty drastically depending on guidelines or exceptions included. But it isn’t too far from a 50/50 split when you factor in exceptions for rape, incest, Heath reasons, etc. So Just because the door is opened for abortion doesnt mean every other issue will be next when no one is seeking those things.
    I think this is partly "in theory." The GOP is flexing its muscle right now. The door is open. Right now, I don't see a movement to ban contraceptives or interracial marriage. Or to reverse Brown v Topeka Board of Education. 

    Gay Marriage? That's a formality. That's getting reversed.

    As for the others, While very few people want those things outlawed, it's really not much of a leap to "the states should decide these things." I'm not saying it's going to happen. But it'll be interesting to see how an emboldened social right moves ahead.
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  • Cropduster-80
    Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited May 2022
    OnWis97 said:
    mace1229 said:
    Cropduster-80 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I’ve been hearing things like interracial marriage, contraceptives, segregation are all next.
    Abortion has been a big topic of nearly every election for as long as I can remember. I can’t recall a single person wanting to ban contraceptives. I can’t think of anyone I can name saying interracial marriage should end. But yet I’m seeing and hearing these claims all over social media and the news today. Where are people getting these ideas? Who wants to end contraceptives?
    The rationale for Roe is  the same rationale for contraception, interracial marriage, same sex marriage, consensual sexual acts between consenting adults within the confines of their home.

    the concept that personal decisions residing with the individual not the state and a right to privacy is the same principle in all of those cases.  If you eliminate that fundamental principle it opens the door to pass laws banning interracial marriages again if a state was so inclined. At it’s core Roe is more about a constitutional right to privacy than it is about abortion.  

    you will absolutely see things reguarding the gay community tested again because of this.  Marriage, sex etc . Gay sex used to be illegal. It could be again.  Look at all the anti LGBTQ laws passed just in the last 12 months.

    some in the religious right are just as against contraception as they are about abortion.  For the last 50 years, the logical conclusion to reduce abortions is to prevent pregnancy in the first place.  However they do their best to also limit contraception and education on contraception.  It’s entirely plausible that they go after availability of contraception as they have already been fighting contraception being covered on health insurance for the last decade.  
    I disagree 100%. There has never been a movement to ban contraceptives or interracial marriage in my lifetime. I can’t name a single person who is for those things. There has always been a movement to ban abortion. A pretty big movement actually. I saw stats used the last couple days. They vary pretty drastically depending on guidelines or exceptions included. But it isn’t too far from a 50/50 split when you factor in exceptions for rape, incest, Heath reasons, etc. So Just because the door is opened for abortion doesnt mean every other issue will be next when no one is seeking those things.
    I think this is partly "in theory." The GOP is flexing its muscle right now. The door is open. Right now, I don't see a movement to ban contraceptives or interracial marriage. Or to reverse Brown v Topeka Board of Education. 

    Gay Marriage? That's a formality. That's getting reversed.

    As for the others, While very few people want those things outlawed, it's really not much of a leap to "the states should decide these things." I'm not saying it's going to happen. But it'll be interesting to see how an emboldened social right moves ahead.
    Exactly.  It’s the slippery slope concept. By definition you don’t know where it ends, just that it’s possible.  Those rights are no longer guaranteed and are now open to revision or challenge 

    Over the past several years seeing trends I’m not convinced they know what going too far looks like anymore.  

    I can absolutely see  hyper conservative states like ID, WY,UT etc pushing the envelope pretty far as test cases on some of this stuff and those aren’t even the southern states.
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • Parksy
    Parksy Posts: 1,852
    edited May 2022
    This might be an unpopular opinion...  but the time has come for USA to start talking peaceful separation before another civil war breaks out. 

    And sure, sounds alarmist.  But the population is so remarkably broken and on opposite sides on so many issues...  just get the ball rolling for two separate countries and be done with it. 
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  • static111
    static111 Posts: 5,118
    edited May 2022
    Parksy said:
    This might be an unpopular opinion...  but the time has come for USA to start talking peaceful separation before another civil war breaks out. 

    And sure, sounds alarmist.  But the population is so remarkably broken and on opposite sides on so many issues...  just get the ball rolling for two separate countries and be done with it. 
    So are cities and counties  supposed to secede from states or do you see this happening as a mass migration with certain states forming a country etc.  In my home state of michigan alone the UP would be in the conservative camp as well as most rural areas of lower MI outside of major cities.  I'm pretty sure that whatever peoples political leanings are that they would rather go to war than be forced to relocate from their chosen home.  Sounds like a lot of costs to bear for the people that would have to be displaced.
    Post edited by static111 on
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  • OnWis97
    OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 5,622
    Parksy said:
    This might be an unpopular opinion...  but the time has come for USA to start talking peaceful separation before another civil war breaks out. 

    And sure, sounds alarmist.  But the population is so remarkably broken and on opposite sides on so many issues...  just get the ball rolling for two separate countries and be done with it. 
    I would be all for it but it seems logistically impossible. The Civil War had a clear boundary into two nations. Now it's rural vs. urban...A giant confederacy with scattered pieces of the Union.
    1995 Milwaukee     1998 Alpine, Alpine     2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston     2004 Boston, Boston     2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)     2011 Alpine, Alpine     
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  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,893
    static111 said:
    Parksy said:
    This might be an unpopular opinion...  but the time has come for USA to start talking peaceful separation before another civil war breaks out. 

    And sure, sounds alarmist.  But the population is so remarkably broken and on opposite sides on so many issues...  just get the ball rolling for two separate countries and be done with it. 
    So are cities and counties  supposed to secede from states or do you see this happening as a mass migration with certain states forming a country etc.  In my home state of michigan alone the UP would be in the conservative camp as well as most rural areas of lower MI outside of major cities.  I'm pretty sure that whatever peoples political leanings are that they would rather go to war than be forced to relocate from their chosen home.  Sounds like a lot of costs to bare for the people that would have to be displaced.
    Right, there's no realistic way for this to happen.  Cities are liberal, rural areas are conservative.  Will Salt Lake City sit like Vatican City in the middle of Italy?  The solution is for center and left leaning people to vote, vote, vote.  Local elections will be more important than ever.  

    Now remember, Congress could pass laws to protect all of these issues.  They just haven't because it's too bottled up and everyone has relied on Roe and now Obergfell.  The supremacy clause would trump any state movements, even if they had state constitutional amendments.  
  • Cropduster-80
    Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited May 2022
    OnWis97 said:
    Parksy said:
    This might be an unpopular opinion...  but the time has come for USA to start talking peaceful separation before another civil war breaks out. 

    And sure, sounds alarmist.  But the population is so remarkably broken and on opposite sides on so many issues...  just get the ball rolling for two separate countries and be done with it. 
    I would be all for it but it seems logistically impossible. The Civil War had a clear boundary into two nations. Now it's rural vs. urban...A giant confederacy with scattered pieces of the Union.
    Democratic counties account for 70% of the GDP (the entire economy). We also control all the ports basically and coasts. I’m cool with that split hypothetically speaking

    we  vastly outperform our share of the population in terms of economic output.  We can buy our grain from Canada 

    red states have nearly all the nukes though. 


  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,665
    Parksy said:
    This might be an unpopular opinion...  but the time has come for USA to start talking peaceful separation before another civil war breaks out. 

    And sure, sounds alarmist.  But the population is so remarkably broken and on opposite sides on so many issues...  just get the ball rolling for two separate countries and be done with it. 

    Or we could do what Black Flag bass player Chuck Dukowski once suggested (no doubt out of frustration with the way things were going at that time):  "Give everyone in America a gun and see who is left standing."
    Sorry, my cynicism factor is running high this morning.
    On a more serious note, as others have pointed out, this might be logistically very difficult.  I can't even fathom an answer to all of the conflicted state this country is in.  We are very likely going to start seeing some very ugly, very violent activity in many city centers.

    cblock4life said:
    As a woman, I want to just take a moment and say thank you to all the men on this forum supporting the right to choose.  It doesn’t matter if you agree or disagree with the physical act of abortion, what matters to me is that women are recognized as humans who no longer deserve our freedoms taken away.  This isn’t the same as choosing whether or not to be vaccinated, an abortion isn’t contaminating anyone but the woman.  

    And to those who don’t understand how this is going to change everything like gender identification, gay marriage etc., get your head out of your ass because this is just the beginning.  

    It is looking bad, indeed, cblock, but do know many of us are with you!
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,853
    mrussel1 said:
    mace1229 said:
    Cropduster-80 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I’ve been hearing things like interracial marriage, contraceptives, segregation are all next.
    Abortion has been a big topic of nearly every election for as long as I can remember. I can’t recall a single person wanting to ban contraceptives. I can’t think of anyone I can name saying interracial marriage should end. But yet I’m seeing and hearing these claims all over social media and the news today. Where are people getting these ideas? Who wants to end contraceptives?
    The rationale for Roe is  the same rationale for contraception, interracial marriage, same sex marriage, consensual sexual acts between consenting adults within the confines of their home.

    the concept that personal decisions residing with the individual not the state and a right to privacy is the same principle in all of those cases.  If you eliminate that fundamental principle it opens the door to pass laws banning interracial marriages again if a state was so inclined. At it’s core Roe is more about a constitutional right to privacy than it is about abortion.  

    you will absolutely see things reguarding the gay community tested again because of this.  Marriage, sex etc . Gay sex used to be illegal. It could be again.  Look at all the anti LGBTQ laws passed just in the last 12 months.

    some in the religious right are just as against contraception as they are about abortion.  For the last 50 years, the logical conclusion to reduce abortions is to prevent pregnancy in the first place.  However they do their best to also limit contraception and education on contraception.  It’s entirely plausible that they go after availability of contraception as they have already been fighting contraception being covered on health insurance for the last decade.  
    I disagree 100%. There has never been a movement to ban contraceptives or interracial marriage in my lifetime. I can’t name a single person who is for those things. There has always been a movement to ban abortion. A pretty big movement actually. I saw stats used the last couple days. They vary pretty drastically depending on guidelines or exceptions included. But it isn’t too far from a 50/50 split when you factor in exceptions for rape, incest, Heath reasons, etc. So Just because the door is opened for abortion doesnt mean every other issue will be next when no one is seeking those things.
    What's the difference from a legal standpoint? If there is no constitutional right to privacy and no long held history,  what stops a state from prohibiting gay marriage, interracial marriage or anything that the religious right from passing a law? There's literally nothing preventing a state from doing so. 
    These arguments remind me of the far right 15 years ago when gay marriage was becoming a thing. I remember hearing “What’s next? Legalizing beastiality or incest?” That didn’t happen because no one was wanting that.
    No one is for banning interracial marriage, reintroducing segregation, or banning contraceptives. (Almost) No one wants it. It’s not going to happen.
  • Cropduster-80
    Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    Parksy said:
    This might be an unpopular opinion...  but the time has come for USA to start talking peaceful separation before another civil war breaks out. 

    And sure, sounds alarmist.  But the population is so remarkably broken and on opposite sides on so many issues...  just get the ball rolling for two separate countries and be done with it. 
    So are cities and counties  supposed to secede from states or do you see this happening as a mass migration with certain states forming a country etc.  In my home state of michigan alone the UP would be in the conservative camp as well as most rural areas of lower MI outside of major cities.  I'm pretty sure that whatever peoples political leanings are that they would rather go to war than be forced to relocate from their chosen home.  Sounds like a lot of costs to bare for the people that would have to be displaced.
      The supremacy clause would trump any state movements, even if they had state constitutional amendments.  
    Texas being a former republic throws a tantrum every time a democrat gets elected president.  Perry threatened to secede over the ACA. Texas claims they reserved the right.  They can’t but the fact they threaten when they don’t get their way is pretty telling 

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