So it's possible that a few committed people planned in advance (most fucked up part) and decided to blow themselves up at an Ariana Grande concert in front of a bunch of little girls ...
Religious leaders need to step up and LEAD sooner then later. To bad that there is a lack of education, maybe suppression is the better term
It's not a religious issue.
I disagree with that. Why do you think it's not a religious issue? As far as the terrorists are concerned, however fucked up in their fanatical beliefs, it is very much a religious issue.
Because it's no longer Islam at that point. The same way people will say someone isn't following Christianity when they personally are motivated to kill by what they believe is Christianity.
That doesn't make any difference. A screwy, warped religion is still a religion (well, in relative terms - they are all screwy and warped, but some are more screwy and warped than others). Just because it isn't about moderate Islam it doesn't mean that it's any less a religious issue. Also, fanatical Islam is very much an issue that all Muslims should be concerned about. Whether they are you like it or not, it IS an Islamic issue, which is, of course, necessarily a religious one.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
So it's possible that a few committed people planned in advance (most fucked up part) and decided to blow themselves up at an Ariana Grande concert in front of a bunch of little girls ...
Religious leaders need to step up and LEAD sooner then later. To bad that there is a lack of education, maybe suppression is the better term
It's not a religious issue.
I disagree with that. Why do you think it's not a religious issue? As far as the terrorists are concerned, however fucked up in their fanatical beliefs, it is very much a religious issue.
Because it's no longer Islam at that point. The same way people will say someone isn't following Christianity when they personally are motivated to kill by what they believe is Christianity.
That doesn't make any difference. A screwy, warped religion is still a religion (well, in relative terms - they are all screwy and warped, but some are more screwy and warped than others). Just because it isn't about moderate Islam it doesn't mean that it's any less a religious issue. Also, fanatical Islam is very much an issue that all Muslims should be concerned about. Whether they are you like it or not, it IS an Islamic issue, which is, of course, necessarily a religious one.
So fanatical Christianity is also a religious issue that Christians should be concerned about?
I think the religious texts are all pretty fucked. But most Christian people deny the shifty stuff. Lots of good charity work done from all religions which I appreciate. Just can't get into the cultu judgey thing.
I used to attend a baptist church that was pretty nutty, but the amount of work they did for less fortunate people locally and globally was outstanding. So I can't dog them too hard. Great people stuck in some old school beliefs.
You don't need religion to do those good things though. Atheists do good work for the less fortunate too. Religion is bullshit, and I think attributing good acts to the existence of religion is like saying all of those people wouldn't help anyone if it weren't for their Church. Well, if that's true, they are actually jerks.
I am genuinely intrigued to hear you say all religion is bullshit, but then in another thread you have mentioned it is rude for someone to wear a hat during the anthem. Generalizing that religion is bullshit is discrediting the good that it does for a lot of people who have nothing to do with violence, inequality or any other wrongful act. Some people have chosen religion as their form of community and that is great for them. Personally, not my thing, but the only one's who piss me off are the fanatics who seem to think it makes them better people or that they have some sort of higher moral ground. That can be said about most groups though. The Pearl Jam Ten Club is a group of people who mostly believe they are the best band ever, but among that same group are the detractors on both ends of the spectrum; the fanatics.
I will never ever apologize for bashing religion, and that doesn't mean that I don't think people should mind their manners in public. I really don't see what one has to do with the other. Why are you intrigued that I have both of those opinions? I think the very idea of the existence of God is ludicrous, that religion has and still does WAY more harm than good. Religion is not required for people to be good, so that whole "does a lot of good" argument holds no water for me. It's a moot point. It has absolutely nothing to do with generalizing. If there weren't any violent fanatics, I would still hate religion for a bunch of other good reasons.... But that is definitely not the topic of this thread.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Such a shame this has happened. Now the news reports how she is back "home" safe after all of this. This "home" she said she absolutely hates... It's amazing how so many people say one thing, believe in another thing but don't do a damn thing but talk..... We live in a fucked up world, that's the reality of it all.... It's always been crazy, just go back and research history. This is just the time we have to live in and that's unfortunate but a reality..
1998 Dallas (7/5) 2006 San Fran (7/15,7/16) 2009 San Fran (8/28) 2010 Bristow (5/13) NY (5/21) 2011 Alpine Valley (9/3,9/4) 2012 Missoula (9/30) 2013 Chicago (7/19) Pittsburgh (10/11) Buffalo (10/12) Baltimore (10/27) Dallas (11/15) 2014 Austin (10/12) Memphis (10/14) St. Paul (10/19) Milwaukee (10/20) Denver (10/22) 2016 Ft. Lauderdale (4/8) Miami (4/9) Hampton (4/18) Philly (4/28,4/29) NY (5/1,5/2) 2018 Seattle (8/10) Missoula (8/13) 2022 Nashville (9/16) E.V. - 2008 Berkeley (4/8) 2012 Austin (11/9,11/12) Temple of the Dog - 2016 Upper Darby
Almost no one has painted all muslims as terrorists. in fact, I see more anti-Christian comments on this forum than any other religion. Maybe by interpretation is wrong, but it comes across to me as defensive when in nearly every terrorist attack many hesitate, or even refuse to call it islamic terrorism. The Orlando shooting I remember reading comments on here saying it had nothing to do with Islam, but was anti-gay, even though he clearly had ties to radical Islam. It only took 2 or 3 posts on this topic before more than 1 person was saying don't blame radical Islam. I interpret someone saying don't blame an organization who is clearly at fault in the majority of these cases as defending them, and it is typically those seem people who decide to switch the blame to Christians and point out ever awful deed someone did who identified as Christian. There's a reason why any time you hear of a bomb in a train, bus, school or arena the majority automatically connect it to radical Islam. Although I'm sure there are more, I can only think of 1 or 2 major events in the last 20 years that killed dozens of people that wasn't tied to radical Islam. Now I'm not in the boat that says we can't solve this problem unless you call it what it is. I just don't understand why every time something does happen there seem to be those who chose to defend radical Islam (and not acknowledging it is defending it in my opinion) and pin Christianity as a bigger terrorist threat by pointing out 2 or 3 cases in the last 30 years where an offender happened to be Christian.
first, no one, EVER, has defended radical islam. they have only defended islam. there is a difference. people merely state that calling it radical islam paints the picture to the ignorant that islam is to blame, when it is clearly not. radicalization in any form is to blame. are there oppressive and bad parts of the faith? yep. when people come back with "well so does christianity", it's not to deflect, but in an attempt to open the eyes to the hypocrisy. there are MANY things that are said in the bible that are ABHORENT. MOST christians don't practice them anymore. some do, but most don't. some practice the oppressive portions of islam. most don't. but the perception is still there that islam is evil.
second, many people on this forum (many have been banned) have stated very clearly their anti-islamic stances.
third, yes, there is anti-christian sentiment on this forum, but usually only as a retort to being confronted with some type of nonsensical judgement by a christian.
I would agree with most of that. No one has defending the actions of radical Islam, but some have denied it is a problem and a root to many of the violent acts and that is what I meant by defending it. I intentionally use "Radical Islam" to separate the radicals from the rest. Radicals, as everyone knows, makes up a very small fraction of Islam. I was going to argue the motivation behind the Christian comparison argument. I've seen plenty of posts where Christianity is brought up out of the blue and used as a negative label against people here, much like calling someone a communist was several decades ago. Which never offended me, kinda found it amusing actually. But reading some other posts, you may have a point to that.
Nobody has EVER denied that radical Islam is a problem, nor has anybody ever denied that it has been the cause of many terrorist attacks.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Almost no one has painted all muslims as terrorists. in fact, I see more anti-Christian comments on this forum than any other religion. Maybe by interpretation is wrong, but it comes across to me as defensive when in nearly every terrorist attack many hesitate, or even refuse to call it islamic terrorism. The Orlando shooting I remember reading comments on here saying it had nothing to do with Islam, but was anti-gay, even though he clearly had ties to radical Islam. It only took 2 or 3 posts on this topic before more than 1 person was saying don't blame radical Islam. I interpret someone saying don't blame an organization who is clearly at fault in the majority of these cases as defending them, and it is typically those seem people who decide to switch the blame to Christians and point out ever awful deed someone did who identified as Christian. There's a reason why any time you hear of a bomb in a train, bus, school or arena the majority automatically connect it to radical Islam. Although I'm sure there are more, I can only think of 1 or 2 major events in the last 20 years that killed dozens of people that wasn't tied to radical Islam. Now I'm not in the boat that says we can't solve this problem unless you call it what it is. I just don't understand why every time something does happen there seem to be those who chose to defend radical Islam (and not acknowledging it is defending it in my opinion) and pin Christianity as a bigger terrorist threat by pointing out 2 or 3 cases in the last 30 years where an offender happened to be Christian.
first, no one, EVER, has defended radical islam. they have only defended islam. there is a difference. people merely state that calling it radical islam paints the picture to the ignorant that islam is to blame, when it is clearly not. radicalization in any form is to blame. are there oppressive and bad parts of the faith? yep. when people come back with "well so does christianity", it's not to deflect, but in an attempt to open the eyes to the hypocrisy. there are MANY things that are said in the bible that are ABHORENT. MOST christians don't practice them anymore. some do, but most don't. some practice the oppressive portions of islam. most don't. but the perception is still there that islam is evil.
second, many people on this forum (many have been banned) have stated very clearly their anti-islamic stances.
third, yes, there is anti-christian sentiment on this forum, but usually only as a retort to being confronted with some type of nonsensical judgement by a christian.
I would agree with most of that. No one has defending the actions of radical Islam, but some have denied it is a problem and a root to many of the violent acts and that is what I meant by defending it. I intentionally use "Radical Islam" to separate the radicals from the rest. Radicals, as everyone knows, makes up a very small fraction of Islam. I was going to argue the motivation behind the Christian comparison argument. I've seen plenty of posts where Christianity is brought up out of the blue and used as a negative label against people here, much like calling someone a communist was several decades ago. Which never offended me, kinda found it amusing actually. But reading some other posts, you may have a point to that.
Radical Islam is not the root of terrorism. To fight radical Islam as a goal to end terrorism will only exacerbate the problem. As with any human problem, you find the actual roots of it when you're going to intervene. "Radical Islam" is one form of fundamentalist thinking under which people can be manipulated to do extreme things.
Why do we all act like Islam is a good thing? Have you seen how women in Islamic communities are treated? And homosexuals? Sure, believe what you want, but don't put down others. Women can't even show their faces or have any standing in society. :( it's not a good religion. Sorry, just being honest. And I'm not defending Christianity.
Why do we act like religion is good thing? There are no good religions.
Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on.
Again... rushing to the defence of Islam.
Stoning a woman to death who is buried chest high in the street because she was accused of infidelity (in front of a cheering crowd no less) is a far cry from not hiring one.
how is what he said "rushing" to defend it? can you describe what "rushing to defend" even means, and why you think that anyone defending anything you disagree with to be "rushing" to do so?
Because any time anyone makes any legitimate critical remark towards Islam... he attempts to rationalize it. Keep up.
I have kept up just fine thanks.
so the same, inverse argument could be made about you: rushing to criticize.
No.
It's not even close. What are you talking about?
First... there's the big stretch trying to suggest anti government types like Breivik (who isn't even a Christian) and McVeigh are 'Christian terrorists'.
Second... even if one insisted on believing these acts by these idiots were borne from Christian ideals... they are isolated events and separated by decades of time- hardly anything at all like what we are experiencing by radical Islam in terms of persistence and methodology.
Even in the best case scenario for someone badly wanting others to 'have the perspective' that Islamic terror has its close rivals.
Third... when someone suggests the nationwide treatment of women and homosexuals is abhorrent... an immediate response is to claim that 'Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on'... so, in other words, it's no different there than here. Which... is wrong.
Bin Laden was also anti-US government. The same motivation as McVeigh.
So many similarities. Radicals can be of any religion. Crusades, KKK, white supremacy, ISIS - members of all of these consider/considered themselves religious. Do not hate the religion, hate the radicalization.
Why do we all act like Islam is a good thing? Have you seen how women in Islamic communities are treated? And homosexuals? Sure, believe what you want, but don't put down others. Women can't even show their faces or have any standing in society. :( it's not a good religion. Sorry, just being honest. And I'm not defending Christianity.
Why do we act like religion is good thing? There are no good religions.
Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on.
Again... rushing to the defence of Islam.
Stoning a woman to death who is buried chest high in the street because she was accused of infidelity (in front of a cheering crowd no less) is a far cry from not hiring one.
how is what he said "rushing" to defend it? can you describe what "rushing to defend" even means, and why you think that anyone defending anything you disagree with to be "rushing" to do so?
Because any time anyone makes any legitimate critical remark towards Islam... he attempts to rationalize it. Keep up.
I have kept up just fine thanks.
so the same, inverse argument could be made about you: rushing to criticize.
No.
It's not even close. What are you talking about?
First... there's the big stretch trying to suggest anti government types like Breivik (who isn't even a Christian) and McVeigh are 'Christian terrorists'.
Second... even if one insisted on believing these acts by these idiots were borne from Christian ideals... they are isolated events and separated by decades of time- hardly anything at all like what we are experiencing by radical Islam in terms of persistence and methodology.
Even in the best case scenario for someone badly wanting others to 'have the perspective' that Islamic terror has its close rivals.
Third... when someone suggests the nationwide treatment of women and homosexuals is abhorrent... an immediate response is to claim that 'Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on'... so, in other words, it's no different there than here. Which... is wrong.
Bin Laden was also anti-US government. The same motivation as McVeigh.
That's actually a very good point... he felt we overstepped our bounds by setting up military shop in Saudi Arabia... much like McVeigh felt the govt over stepped at Ruby Ridge
Why do we all act like Islam is a good thing? Have you seen how women in Islamic communities are treated? And homosexuals? Sure, believe what you want, but don't put down others. Women can't even show their faces or have any standing in society. :( it's not a good religion. Sorry, just being honest. And I'm not defending Christianity.
Why do we act like religion is good thing? There are no good religions.
Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on.
Again... rushing to the defence of Islam.
Stoning a woman to death who is buried chest high in the street because she was accused of infidelity (in front of a cheering crowd no less) is a far cry from not hiring one.
how is what he said "rushing" to defend it? can you describe what "rushing to defend" even means, and why you think that anyone defending anything you disagree with to be "rushing" to do so?
Because any time anyone makes any legitimate critical remark towards Islam... he attempts to rationalize it. Keep up.
I have kept up just fine thanks.
so the same, inverse argument could be made about you: rushing to criticize.
No.
It's not even close. What are you talking about?
First... there's the big stretch trying to suggest anti government types like Breivik (who isn't even a Christian) and McVeigh are 'Christian terrorists'.
Second... even if one insisted on believing these acts by these idiots were borne from Christian ideals... they are isolated events and separated by decades of time- hardly anything at all like what we are experiencing by radical Islam in terms of persistence and methodology.
Even in the best case scenario for someone badly wanting others to 'have the perspective' that Islamic terror has its close rivals.
Third... when someone suggests the nationwide treatment of women and homosexuals is abhorrent... an immediate response is to claim that 'Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on'... so, in other words, it's no different there than here. Which... is wrong.
Bin Laden was also anti-US government. The same motivation as McVeigh.
A devout Muslim.
So much so that he forfeited a life of royalty to live in caves plotting against the west for what they represented to Islamic faith.
So... not so much anti-US government as much as anti-US.
Such a shame this has happened. Now the news reports how she is back "home" safe after all of this. This "home" she said she absolutely hates... It's amazing how so many people say one thing, believe in another thing but don't do a damn thing but talk..... We live in a fucked up world, that's the reality of it all.... It's always been crazy, just go back and research history. This is just the time we have to live in and that's unfortunate but a reality..
Sorry, what are you talking about? Is "she" Ariana Grande? She hates her home? Where's that and why does she hate it? Finally, do you think there is something that she could do other than talk?
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Why do we all act like Islam is a good thing? Have you seen how women in Islamic communities are treated? And homosexuals? Sure, believe what you want, but don't put down others. Women can't even show their faces or have any standing in society. :( it's not a good religion. Sorry, just being honest. And I'm not defending Christianity.
Why do we act like religion is good thing? There are no good religions.
Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on.
Again... rushing to the defence of Islam.
Stoning a woman to death who is buried chest high in the street because she was accused of infidelity (in front of a cheering crowd no less) is a far cry from not hiring one.
how is what he said "rushing" to defend it? can you describe what "rushing to defend" even means, and why you think that anyone defending anything you disagree with to be "rushing" to do so?
Because any time anyone makes any legitimate critical remark towards Islam... he attempts to rationalize it. Keep up.
I have kept up just fine thanks.
so the same, inverse argument could be made about you: rushing to criticize.
No.
It's not even close. What are you talking about?
First... there's the big stretch trying to suggest anti government types like Breivik (who isn't even a Christian) and McVeigh are 'Christian terrorists'.
Second... even if one insisted on believing these acts by these idiots were borne from Christian ideals... they are isolated events and separated by decades of time- hardly anything at all like what we are experiencing by radical Islam in terms of persistence and methodology.
Even in the best case scenario for someone badly wanting others to 'have the perspective' that Islamic terror has its close rivals.
Third... when someone suggests the nationwide treatment of women and homosexuals is abhorrent... an immediate response is to claim that 'Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on'... so, in other words, it's no different there than here. Which... is wrong.
Bin Laden was also anti-US government. The same motivation as McVeigh.
A devout Muslim.
So much so that he forfeited a life of royalty to live in caves plotting against the west for what they represented to Islamic faith.
So... not so much anti-US government as much as anti-US.
Why do we all act like Islam is a good thing? Have you seen how women in Islamic communities are treated? And homosexuals? Sure, believe what you want, but don't put down others. Women can't even show their faces or have any standing in society. :( it's not a good religion. Sorry, just being honest. And I'm not defending Christianity.
Why do we act like religion is good thing? There are no good religions.
Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on.
Again... rushing to the defence of Islam.
Stoning a woman to death who is buried chest high in the street because she was accused of infidelity (in front of a cheering crowd no less) is a far cry from not hiring one.
how is what he said "rushing" to defend it? can you describe what "rushing to defend" even means, and why you think that anyone defending anything you disagree with to be "rushing" to do so?
Because any time anyone makes any legitimate critical remark towards Islam... he attempts to rationalize it. Keep up.
I have kept up just fine thanks.
so the same, inverse argument could be made about you: rushing to criticize.
No.
It's not even close. What are you talking about?
First... there's the big stretch trying to suggest anti government types like Breivik (who isn't even a Christian) and McVeigh are 'Christian terrorists'.
Second... even if one insisted on believing these acts by these idiots were borne from Christian ideals... they are isolated events and separated by decades of time- hardly anything at all like what we are experiencing by radical Islam in terms of persistence and methodology.
Even in the best case scenario for someone badly wanting others to 'have the perspective' that Islamic terror has its close rivals.
Third... when someone suggests the nationwide treatment of women and homosexuals is abhorrent... an immediate response is to claim that 'Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on'... so, in other words, it's no different there than here. Which... is wrong.
Bin Laden was also anti-US government. The same motivation as McVeigh.
A devout Muslim.
So much so that he forfeited a life of royalty to live in caves plotting against the west for what they represented to Islamic faith.
So... not so much anti-US government as much as anti-US.
Anti-US? or Anti-Globalist? was Osama a Statist?
“Every Muslim the minute he can start differentiating, carries hate towards Americans, Jews and Christians, this is part of our ideology. Ever since I can recall, I felt at war with the Americans and had feelings of animosity and hate towards them,” said bin Laden in an interview with al-Jazeera Arab televisionin 1998.
That same year, in an interview with TIME magazinehe said, “Our work targets world infidels. Our enemy is the crusader alliance led by America, Britain and Israel. It is a crusader-Jewish alliance.”
1998 would be around the time there'd be recruiting and training going on to carry out 9/11. If a leader is going to convince someone to do their bidding and kill people, adding grandiosity to the mission is one of the steps to do it. This is also done outside of terrorist groups.
1998 would be around the time there'd be recruiting and training going on to carry out 9/11. If a leader is going to convince someone to do their bidding and kill people, adding grandiosity to the mission is one of the steps to do it. This is also done outside of terrorist groups.
Not to mention 72 virgins as per the belief system.
Why do we all act like Islam is a good thing? Have you seen how women in Islamic communities are treated? And homosexuals? Sure, believe what you want, but don't put down others. Women can't even show their faces or have any standing in society. :( it's not a good religion. Sorry, just being honest. And I'm not defending Christianity.
Why do we act like religion is good thing? There are no good religions.
Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on.
Again... rushing to the defence of Islam.
Stoning a woman to death who is buried chest high in the street because she was accused of infidelity (in front of a cheering crowd no less) is a far cry from not hiring one.
how is what he said "rushing" to defend it? can you describe what "rushing to defend" even means, and why you think that anyone defending anything you disagree with to be "rushing" to do so?
Because any time anyone makes any legitimate critical remark towards Islam... he attempts to rationalize it. Keep up.
I have kept up just fine thanks.
so the same, inverse argument could be made about you: rushing to criticize.
No.
It's not even close. What are you talking about?
First... there's the big stretch trying to suggest anti government types like Breivik (who isn't even a Christian) and McVeigh are 'Christian terrorists'.
Second... even if one insisted on believing these acts by these idiots were borne from Christian ideals... they are isolated events and separated by decades of time- hardly anything at all like what we are experiencing by radical Islam in terms of persistence and methodology.
Even in the best case scenario for someone badly wanting others to 'have the perspective' that Islamic terror has its close rivals.
Third... when someone suggests the nationwide treatment of women and homosexuals is abhorrent... an immediate response is to claim that 'Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on'... so, in other words, it's no different there than here. Which... is wrong.
edit: fuck it. not worth my time.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
Why do we all act like Islam is a good thing? Have you seen how women in Islamic communities are treated? And homosexuals? Sure, believe what you want, but don't put down others. Women can't even show their faces or have any standing in society. :( it's not a good religion. Sorry, just being honest. And I'm not defending Christianity.
Why do we act like religion is good thing? There are no good religions.
Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on.
Again... rushing to the defence of Islam.
Stoning a woman to death who is buried chest high in the street because she was accused of infidelity (in front of a cheering crowd no less) is a far cry from not hiring one.
how is what he said "rushing" to defend it? can you describe what "rushing to defend" even means, and why you think that anyone defending anything you disagree with to be "rushing" to do so?
Because any time anyone makes any legitimate critical remark towards Islam... he attempts to rationalize it. Keep up.
I have kept up just fine thanks.
so the same, inverse argument could be made about you: rushing to criticize.
No.
It's not even close. What are you talking about?
First... there's the big stretch trying to suggest anti government types like Breivik (who isn't even a Christian) and McVeigh are 'Christian terrorists'.
Second... even if one insisted on believing these acts by these idiots were borne from Christian ideals... they are isolated events and separated by decades of time- hardly anything at all like what we are experiencing by radical Islam in terms of persistence and methodology.
Even in the best case scenario for someone badly wanting others to 'have the perspective' that Islamic terror has its close rivals.
Third... when someone suggests the nationwide treatment of women and homosexuals is abhorrent... an immediate response is to claim that 'Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on'... so, in other words, it's no different there than here. Which... is wrong.
Bin Laden was also anti-US government. The same motivation as McVeigh.
A devout Muslim.
So much so that he forfeited a life of royalty to live in caves plotting against the west for what they represented to Islamic faith.
So... not so much anti-US government as much as anti-US.
Anti-US? or Anti-Globalist? was Osama a Statist?
“Every Muslim the minute he can start differentiating, carries hate towards Americans, Jews and Christians, this is part of our ideology. Ever since I can recall, I felt at war with the Americans and had feelings of animosity and hate towards them,” said bin Laden in an interview with al-Jazeera Arab television in 1998.
That same year, in an interview with TIME magazine he said, “Our work targets world infidels. Our enemy is the crusader alliance led by America, Britain and Israel. It is a crusader-Jewish alliance.”
1998 would be around the time there'd be recruiting and training going on to carry out 9/11. If a leader is going to convince someone to do their bidding and kill people, adding grandiosity to the mission is one of the steps to do it. This is also done outside of terrorist groups.
Not to mention 72 virgins as per the belief system.
Hummada Hummada
You know,
I can fathom that some believe that Led Zeppelin was a great band or beer is better than wine. I can fathom that some people believe that vegemite or pumpernickel bread tastes good. I can fathom that some people believe that insects are pests. What I can't fathom is how someone can believe that 72virgins are waiting for them in a magical place once an atrocity is committed and they die on the bequest of a living person. Fuck.
Why do we all act like Islam is a good thing? Have you seen how women in Islamic communities are treated? And homosexuals? Sure, believe what you want, but don't put down others. Women can't even show their faces or have any standing in society. :( it's not a good religion. Sorry, just being honest. And I'm not defending Christianity.
Why do we act like religion is good thing? There are no good religions.
Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on.
Again... rushing to the defence of Islam.
Stoning a woman to death who is buried chest high in the street because she was accused of infidelity (in front of a cheering crowd no less) is a far cry from not hiring one.
how is what he said "rushing" to defend it? can you describe what "rushing to defend" even means, and why you think that anyone defending anything you disagree with to be "rushing" to do so?
Because any time anyone makes any legitimate critical remark towards Islam... he attempts to rationalize it. Keep up.
I have kept up just fine thanks.
so the same, inverse argument could be made about you: rushing to criticize.
No.
It's not even close. What are you talking about?
First... there's the big stretch trying to suggest anti government types like Breivik (who isn't even a Christian) and McVeigh are 'Christian terrorists'.
Second... even if one insisted on believing these acts by these idiots were borne from Christian ideals... they are isolated events and separated by decades of time- hardly anything at all like what we are experiencing by radical Islam in terms of persistence and methodology.
Even in the best case scenario for someone badly wanting others to 'have the perspective' that Islamic terror has its close rivals.
Third... when someone suggests the nationwide treatment of women and homosexuals is abhorrent... an immediate response is to claim that 'Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on'... so, in other words, it's no different there than here. Which... is wrong.
edit: fuck it. not worth my time.
Of course it isn't.
The point has been made and it's tough to refute.
(But once again... with this post... you've made an implication without actually saying what you were getting at. Does stating 'this isn't worth your time' mean you're right... I'm wrong... and trying to convince me of your 'rightness' would be a waste of your time? That's how such a comment comes across)
Why do we all act like Islam is a good thing? Have you seen how women in Islamic communities are treated? And homosexuals? Sure, believe what you want, but don't put down others. Women can't even show their faces or have any standing in society. :( it's not a good religion. Sorry, just being honest. And I'm not defending Christianity.
Why do we act like religion is good thing? There are no good religions.
Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on.
Again... rushing to the defence of Islam.
Stoning a woman to death who is buried chest high in the street because she was accused of infidelity (in front of a cheering crowd no less) is a far cry from not hiring one.
how is what he said "rushing" to defend it? can you describe what "rushing to defend" even means, and why you think that anyone defending anything you disagree with to be "rushing" to do so?
Because any time anyone makes any legitimate critical remark towards Islam... he attempts to rationalize it. Keep up.
I have kept up just fine thanks.
so the same, inverse argument could be made about you: rushing to criticize.
No.
It's not even close. What are you talking about?
First... there's the big stretch trying to suggest anti government types like Breivik (who isn't even a Christian) and McVeigh are 'Christian terrorists'.
Second... even if one insisted on believing these acts by these idiots were borne from Christian ideals... they are isolated events and separated by decades of time- hardly anything at all like what we are experiencing by radical Islam in terms of persistence and methodology.
Even in the best case scenario for someone badly wanting others to 'have the perspective' that Islamic terror has its close rivals.
Third... when someone suggests the nationwide treatment of women and homosexuals is abhorrent... an immediate response is to claim that 'Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on'... so, in other words, it's no different there than here. Which... is wrong.
edit: fuck it. not worth my time.
Of course it isn't.
The point has been made and it's tough to refute.
(But once again... with this post... you've made an implication without actually saying what you were getting at. Does stating 'this isn't worth your time' mean you're right... I'm wrong... and trying to convince me of your 'rightness' would be a waste of your time? That's how such a comment comes across)
Why do we all act like Islam is a good thing? Have you seen how women in Islamic communities are treated? And homosexuals? Sure, believe what you want, but don't put down others. Women can't even show their faces or have any standing in society. :( it's not a good religion. Sorry, just being honest. And I'm not defending Christianity.
Why do we act like religion is good thing? There are no good religions.
Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on.
Again... rushing to the defence of Islam.
Stoning a woman to death who is buried chest high in the street because she was accused of infidelity (in front of a cheering crowd no less) is a far cry from not hiring one.
how is what he said "rushing" to defend it? can you describe what "rushing to defend" even means, and why you think that anyone defending anything you disagree with to be "rushing" to do so?
Because any time anyone makes any legitimate critical remark towards Islam... he attempts to rationalize it. Keep up.
I have kept up just fine thanks.
so the same, inverse argument could be made about you: rushing to criticize.
No.
It's not even close. What are you talking about?
First... there's the big stretch trying to suggest anti government types like Breivik (who isn't even a Christian) and McVeigh are 'Christian terrorists'.
Second... even if one insisted on believing these acts by these idiots were borne from Christian ideals... they are isolated events and separated by decades of time- hardly anything at all like what we are experiencing by radical Islam in terms of persistence and methodology.
Even in the best case scenario for someone badly wanting others to 'have the perspective' that Islamic terror has its close rivals.
Third... when someone suggests the nationwide treatment of women and homosexuals is abhorrent... an immediate response is to claim that 'Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on'... so, in other words, it's no different there than here. Which... is wrong.
Bin Laden was also anti-US government. The same motivation as McVeigh.
A devout Muslim.
So much so that he forfeited a life of royalty to live in caves plotting against the west for what they represented to Islamic faith.
So... not so much anti-US government as much as anti-US.
Anti-US? or Anti-Globalist? was Osama a Statist?
“Every Muslim the minute he can start differentiating, carries hate towards Americans, Jews and Christians, this is part of our ideology. Ever since I can recall, I felt at war with the Americans and had feelings of animosity and hate towards them,” said bin Laden in an interview with al-Jazeera Arab television in 1998.
That same year, in an interview with TIME magazine he said, “Our work targets world infidels. Our enemy is the crusader alliance led by America, Britain and Israel. It is a crusader-Jewish alliance.”
Comments
I think the very idea of the existence of God is ludicrous, that religion has and still does WAY more harm than good. Religion is not required for people to be good, so that whole "does a lot of good" argument holds no water for me. It's a moot point. It has absolutely nothing to do with generalizing. If there weren't any violent fanatics, I would still hate religion for a bunch of other good reasons.... But that is definitely not the topic of this thread.
2012 Missoula (9/30) 2013 Chicago (7/19) Pittsburgh (10/11) Buffalo (10/12) Baltimore (10/27) Dallas (11/15)
2014 Austin (10/12) Memphis (10/14) St. Paul (10/19) Milwaukee (10/20) Denver (10/22)
2016 Ft. Lauderdale (4/8) Miami (4/9) Hampton (4/18) Philly (4/28,4/29) NY (5/1,5/2) 2018 Seattle (8/10) Missoula (8/13) 2022 Nashville (9/16)
E.V. - 2008 Berkeley (4/8) 2012 Austin (11/9,11/12)
Temple of the Dog - 2016 Upper Darby
So many similarities. Radicals can be of any religion. Crusades, KKK, white supremacy, ISIS - members of all of these consider/considered themselves religious. Do not hate the religion, hate the radicalization.
Excellent point
So much so that he forfeited a life of royalty to live in caves plotting against the west for what they represented to Islamic faith.
So... not so much anti-US government as much as anti-US.
That same year, in an interview with TIME magazine he said, “Our work targets world infidels. Our enemy is the crusader alliance led by America, Britain and Israel. It is a crusader-Jewish alliance.”
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/31/why-did-osama-bin-laden-hate-americans-jews-and-ch/
and trust me, I'm one of the calmest people in the world.
Hey!
Stop being offensive to ex-wives. Show some respect.
They are human and deserve equal rights as you do.
Unbelievable the amount of hate.
Hummada Hummada
-EV 8/14/93
You know,
I can fathom that some believe that Led Zeppelin was a great band or beer is better than wine. I can fathom that some people believe that vegemite or pumpernickel bread tastes good. I can fathom that some people believe that insects are pests. What I can't fathom is how someone can believe that 72virgins are waiting for them in a magical place once an atrocity is committed and they die on the bequest of a living person. Fuck.
The point has been made and it's tough to refute.
(But once again... with this post... you've made an implication without actually saying what you were getting at. Does stating 'this isn't worth your time' mean you're right... I'm wrong... and trying to convince me of your 'rightness' would be a waste of your time? That's how such a comment comes across)
When I read the terms 'infidel' and 'Muslim ideology'... I tend to think of a person more concerned with religious control than political control.