I wonder what the unemployment rate is in seattle? Notice $15 an hour by 2021. Using extreme examples to make your argument is misleading and frankly are scare tactics. Facts matter.
I think Conservatives have the attitude of "every man for himself" while Liberals tend to lean more towards "It takes a village". The individual vs the group. Pretty simple distinction that is glaringly obvious IMHO. Capitalists and socialists have the same distinction, although somewhat more black and white. And, as I mentioned earlier, another big distinction is the belief in trickle down economics vs a complete disbelief in trickle down economics.
I can see how it comes across that way. But I think it is more along the lines of believing that if the village is too focused on a few, then everyone will suffer and that benefits no one. It isnt that conservatives dont want to help others just as much. There definitely is an attitude of reap the benefits of your labor, but it is rooted in what benefits everyone. Minimum wage for example. It would be great if everyone made 6 figure salaries. But we have a different long-term prediction on the outcome that will have. It isnt that we don't want to help single moms make a livable wage, but we see a $20 minimum wage having drastic consequences, and by doing so for every 10 people who benefit from it, there will be 20 who are worse off. And so it comes down to what is best for the country is best for everyone, and often times that comes across as "reap what you sow."
Where is minimum wage $20 an hour and what are the drastic consequences of which you speak?
That was an example, since there is a push to raise minimum wage to the living wage of $20. Examples would be the small family shop I worked for in college of about 6 employees would close, since they cant afford $20/hr for each employee. Essentially every small family business making under 100k a year would suffer. Many fast food store have said they would fire employees and hire more automated systems. People already making $20 are going to want $30-$35, since they want want to make minimum wage with skills and experience. Which will create essentially a chain reaction where everyone just gets paid more, and not solve anything.
There have not been, nor will there ever be, a legitimate minimum wage raise proposal that would apply to said mom and pop store. There have always been exemptions and there always will be. The fact is plain, there is no hard evidence that min wage hikes cost jobs, probably none that they hurt the economy otherwise, either.
I think Conservatives have the attitude of "every man for himself" while Liberals tend to lean more towards "It takes a village". The individual vs the group. Pretty simple distinction that is glaringly obvious IMHO. Capitalists and socialists have the same distinction, although somewhat more black and white. And, as I mentioned earlier, another big distinction is the belief in trickle down economics vs a complete disbelief in trickle down economics.
I can see how it comes across that way. But I think it is more along the lines of believing that if the village is too focused on a few, then everyone will suffer and that benefits no one. It isnt that conservatives dont want to help others just as much. There definitely is an attitude of reap the benefits of your labor, but it is rooted in what benefits everyone. Minimum wage for example. It would be great if everyone made 6 figure salaries. But we have a different long-term prediction on the outcome that will have. It isnt that we don't want to help single moms make a livable wage, but we see a $20 minimum wage having drastic consequences, and by doing so for every 10 people who benefit from it, there will be 20 who are worse off. And so it comes down to what is best for the country is best for everyone, and often times that comes across as "reap what you sow."
Where is minimum wage $20 an hour and what are the drastic consequences of which you speak?
That was an example, since there is a push to raise minimum wage to the living wage of $20. Examples would be the small family shop I worked for in college of about 6 employees would close, since they cant afford $20/hr for each employee. Essentially every small family business making under 100k a year would suffer. Many fast food store have said they would fire employees and hire more automated systems. People already making $20 are going to want $30-$35, since they want want to make minimum wage with skills and experience. Which will create essentially a chain reaction where everyone just gets paid more, and not solve anything.
So you don't believe that more disposable income results in increased consumption which results in lower unemployment? How do you feel about tax breaks or trickle down economic theory?
There were/are politicians who did seek to raise the minimum to $15 immediately, with a plan to increase to $20 over the next couple of years. It has been debated for a few years now.
What research do you need that if someone currently goes to school for 4 years just to make $22/hr, they will no longer be able to fill those jobs if minimum wage is $20, unless they also increase that pay? What research do you need if a family run business pays 6 employees $10/hr and profits about 80k/year, they will be better off getting a minimum wage job themself than to pay each employee $20/hr. And the the 6 employees are out of a job. Yes, its a lot of speculation. But it makes common sense to most. National average for EMT is right around $20hr (some places even less). How many will strive to be an EMT if they can just work at the local McD's, or anywhere and make that same amount without a high school diploma? So either an EMT should make minimum wage, along with everyone else with specific training and skills, or those jobs will increase too. And that is just inflation, and helps no one. EMT is just one example of hundreds of jobs that a huge increase of minimum wage would have a drastic impact on. Either they become a minimum wage job too with all their training and skills, or you increase that salary. I think it was the CEO of Burger King who said if it goes to $15, he'll be firing half the employees and installing automated ordering systems because the cost will be too high. Either way it will hurt more than it benefits.
There were/are politicians who did seek to raise the minimum to $15 immediately, with a plan to increase to $20 over the next couple of years. It has been debated for a few years now.
What research do you need that if someone currently goes to school for 4 years just to make $22/hr, they will no longer be able to fill those jobs if minimum wage is $20, unless they also increase that pay? What research do you need if a family run business pays 6 employees $10/hr and profits about 80k/year, they will be better off getting a minimum wage job themself than to pay each employee $20/hr. And the the 6 employees are out of a job. Yes, its a lot of speculation. But it makes common sense to most. National average for EMT is right around $20hr (some places even less). How many will strive to be an EMT if they can just work at the local McD's, or anywhere and make that same amount without a high school diploma? So either an EMT should make minimum wage, along with everyone else with specific training and skills, or those jobs will increase too. And that is just inflation, and helps no one. EMT is just one example of hundreds of jobs that a huge increase of minimum wage would have a drastic impact on. Either they become a minimum wage job too with all their training and skills, or you increase that salary. Either way it will hurt more than it benefits.
Because everything I've read about it is that small, family businesses with less than X number of employees (15 sticks in my mind) is exempt. And there are many exemptions state to state. Some go full bore, others not so much. Which politicians and which states or Feds are arguing for $20 per hour? I've never read that or heard about it. Debated and being enacted are two completely different things. Seeing how you won't address questions and are relying on supposition, here's some facts:
I'm not arguing that the unemployment rate is due to Seattle's drive to $15.00 an hour but its not having the effect that you claim, either. Also, Starbucks pays their part time employees $15.00 an hour and provides paid time off and college tuition assistance. Has Starbucks gone out of business? Has DD or Tim Horton's raised their prices as a result? Do any of them have trouble finding labor? I'm not sure it will hurt more than it'll help. Would you argue that WalMart can't afford to pay their folks more? Have you seen WalMarts profit margin and dollar amounts for the 7 members of the WalMart family? And why is it always good to give the rich or corporations tax cuts? People spend money. Spent money creates jobs. Created jobs tighten the labor market. Tightened labor market raises wages. Which by the way have been stagnant for decades, despite increased productivity and record corporate profits. Facts.
There were/are politicians who did seek to raise the minimum to $15 immediately, with a plan to increase to $20 over the next couple of years. It has been debated for a few years now.
What research do you need that if someone currently goes to school for 4 years just to make $22/hr, they will no longer be able to fill those jobs if minimum wage is $20, unless they also increase that pay? What research do you need if a family run business pays 6 employees $10/hr and profits about 80k/year, they will be better off getting a minimum wage job themself than to pay each employee $20/hr. And the the 6 employees are out of a job. Yes, its a lot of speculation. But it makes common sense to most. National average for EMT is right around $20hr (some places even less). How many will strive to be an EMT if they can just work at the local McD's, or anywhere and make that same amount without a high school diploma? So either an EMT should make minimum wage, along with everyone else with specific training and skills, or those jobs will increase too. And that is just inflation, and helps no one. EMT is just one example of hundreds of jobs that a huge increase of minimum wage would have a drastic impact on. Either they become a minimum wage job too with all their training and skills, or you increase that salary. Either way it will hurt more than it benefits.
Because everything I've read about it is that small, family businesses with less than X number of employees (15 sticks in my mind) is exempt. And there are many exemptions state to state. Some go full bore, others not so much. Which politicians and which states or Feds are arguing for $20 per hour? I've never read that or heard about it. Debated and being enacted are two completely different things. Seeing how you won't address questions and are relying on supposition, here's some facts:
I'm not arguing that the unemployment rate is due to Seattle's drive to $15.00 an hour but its not having the effect that you claim, either. Also, Starbucks pays their part time employees $15.00 an hour and provides paid time off and college tuition assistance. Has Starbucks gone out of business? Has DD or Tim Horton's raised their prices as a result? Do any of them have trouble finding labor? I'm not sure it will hurt more than it'll help. Would you argue that WalMart can't afford to pay their folks more? Have you seen WalMarts profit margin and dollar amounts for the 7 members of the WalMart family? And why is it always good to give the rich or corporations tax cuts? People spend money. Spent money creates jobs. Created jobs tighten the labor market. Tightened labor market raises wages. Which by the way have been stagnant for decades, despite increased productivity and record corporate profits. Facts.
Yes, small business will be exempt based on employees and company, but if the mom and pop shop only pays $10 and the gas station is paying $15.00, where are people going to work? As it has been stated already, educated and field trained employees starting at around $20.00 are going to want to see wage increases at the base levels if you want to retain or attract new employees, which then only trickles up among the middle class wage earners. You're still not really hurting the upper class, but you are creating an upheaval at the low -middle class wage levels. There is going to have to be some disparity in the wage ranges to make the benefit of an education or specialized training a significantly bigger pay off to start with. I worked at a family owned business as a teenager and I think the small business minimum wage at the time was .50 below regular, so in order for this to work, the small businesses would need to be within at least $1.00 of large businesses. By the time I was working in my field, I was making around $15.00/more than minimum wage at my base pay. That is a significant difference.
I don't know who said it, but maybe there shouldn't be a standard federal minimum wage. If you live in small town USA, $15.00/hour is awesome, but in a major city, not so much. If somewhere isn't paying a fair wage, employees will quit and the business won't survive.
Who brought up Obama? But I was wrong about the $20. I think it came from the phrase "livable wage" and many define that as over $20. And since many who fight to increase minimum wage argue for a livable wage, and I incorrectly linked the 2. The highest propposed so far is $15. So you think a small family business with 6 employees is going to be able to find and hire people for $10, when they can go next door and work at McD's for $15? And therefore that solves the problem though? I think it would hurt the small business even more. Sure, Walmart can afford it. That doesnt mean they wont find ways to not cut into their profit. How many automated checkout stands do you see now? I may see 1 actually cashier at Home Depot, and 5 or 6 self checkout. Same with the grocery store. If it is cheaper to fire employees and hire an automated system, most places will do it. It was the CEO of Carls Jr, not Burger King who said he plans to purchase more machines and fewer employees. http://www.inquisitr.com/2900892/carls-jr-ceo-wants-to-open-fully-automated-fast-food-restaurant-is-this-the-answer-to-minimum-wage-increase-demands/
Who brought up Obama? But I was wrong about the $20. I think it came from the phrase "livable wage" and many define that as over $20. And since many who fight to increase minimum wage argue for a livable wage, and I incorrectly linked the 2. The highest propposed so far is $15. So you think a small family business with 6 employees is going to be able to find and hire people for $10, when they can go next door and work at McD's for $15? And therefore that solves the problem though? I think it would hurt the small business even more. Sure, Walmart can afford it. That doesnt mean they wont find ways to not cut into their profit. How many automated checkout stands do you see now? I may see 1 actually cashier at Home Depot, and 5 or 6 self checkout. Same with the grocery store. If it is cheaper to fire employees and hire an automated system, most places will do it. It was the CEO of Carls Jr, not Burger King who said he plans to purchase more machines and fewer employees. http://www.inquisitr.com/2900892/carls-jr-ceo-wants-to-open-fully-automated-fast-food-restaurant-is-this-the-answer-to-minimum-wage-increase-demands/
Different argument. Now you're arguing the impact of technology on jobs. Maybe mom and pop need to incentivize working for them? Can't compete with wages? How about flexible scheduling? Time off? Part time stay at home mom's with kids in school type scheduling? Bonus structure? Or gains in efficiency, less employees with the savings either way going toward wages? Maybe relocate to where there's more labor supply? We all have to deal with change, daily, why should small business be exempt? And you keep harping on 6 employees. Small businesses are usually exempt from a whole range of requirements on the state and federal level. And unemployment is highest among those with a high school diploma or less. Manufacturing isn't coming back unless its smart manufacturing and we're a knowledge based economy now.
I brought up Obama because if you look at the graph and employment info I posted, the US is basically at full employment. My own theory is that there is a segment of the population who are unemployable because they're just fuck ups of one kind or another. I don't know why, they just are.
There were/are politicians who did seek to raise the minimum to $15 immediately, with a plan to increase to $20 over the next couple of years. It has been debated for a few years now.
What research do you need that if someone currently goes to school for 4 years just to make $22/hr, they will no longer be able to fill those jobs if minimum wage is $20, unless they also increase that pay? What research do you need if a family run business pays 6 employees $10/hr and profits about 80k/year, they will be better off getting a minimum wage job themself than to pay each employee $20/hr. And the the 6 employees are out of a job. Yes, its a lot of speculation. But it makes common sense to most. National average for EMT is right around $20hr (some places even less). How many will strive to be an EMT if they can just work at the local McD's, or anywhere and make that same amount without a high school diploma? So either an EMT should make minimum wage, along with everyone else with specific training and skills, or those jobs will increase too. And that is just inflation, and helps no one. EMT is just one example of hundreds of jobs that a huge increase of minimum wage would have a drastic impact on. Either they become a minimum wage job too with all their training and skills, or you increase that salary. I think it was the CEO of Burger King who said if it goes to $15, he'll be firing half the employees and installing automated ordering systems because the cost will be too high. Either way it will hurt more than it benefits.
Yes, which puts more people in higher rates of consumption, which is what drives an economy. It's beyond common sense, and yet conservatives can't wrap their minds around the fact that more people spending more money is better for the economy than less people having more money.
Who will take the low wages mom and pop offer? Immigrants. Never mind.
truer than you think and then those jobs will be new "jobs Americans don't want"
then the cycle of "those poor illegal immigrants" will gain more traction.....but the good news is that
it will take a while to drive down the retail cost of mom and pops products to meet their cheap labor
the illegal immigrants so graciously provide....
Please let me know when those high school dropouts or typical American kids in the 18 to 22 year old range are going to go to work at the meat processing facility, factory farm and/or pick crops. Or maybe pick up a hammer and swing it on one of those monsterous home developments popping up in NC, FL or TX, okay?
Size, number of employees, payroll, etc. Another link shows averages but seems dated. Even if profit is 5% of revenue for a small business with a website, they're not doing too badly. But what do I know?
There were/are politicians who did seek to raise the minimum to $15 immediately, with a plan to increase to $20 over the next couple of years. It has been debated for a few years now.
What research do you need that if someone currently goes to school for 4 years just to make $22/hr, they will no longer be able to fill those jobs if minimum wage is $20, unless they also increase that pay? What research do you need if a family run business pays 6 employees $10/hr and profits about 80k/year, they will be better off getting a minimum wage job themself than to pay each employee $20/hr. And the the 6 employees are out of a job. Yes, its a lot of speculation. But it makes common sense to most. National average for EMT is right around $20hr (some places even less). How many will strive to be an EMT if they can just work at the local McD's, or anywhere and make that same amount without a high school diploma? So either an EMT should make minimum wage, along with everyone else with specific training and skills, or those jobs will increase too. And that is just inflation, and helps no one. EMT is just one example of hundreds of jobs that a huge increase of minimum wage would have a drastic impact on. Either they become a minimum wage job too with all their training and skills, or you increase that salary. I think it was the CEO of Burger King who said if it goes to $15, he'll be firing half the employees and installing automated ordering systems because the cost will be too high. Either way it will hurt more than it benefits.
Yes, which puts more people in higher rates of consumption, which is what drives an economy. It's beyond common sense, and yet conservatives can't wrap their minds around the fact that more people spending more money is better for the economy than less people having more money.
So if you double everyone's pay, that solves poverty? Not how it works, the bottom will still be on the bottom if everyone gets paid more. Prices will rise accordingly to adjust for the inflation. So okay, now you make $20 an hour. But bread is now $5 instead of $2.50 because the entire country just got a pay raise.. Youre still in the same boat. You cant just give everyone more money and expect inflation not to occur. Thats why we "can't wrap our heads around it."
There were/are politicians who did seek to raise the minimum to $15 immediately, with a plan to increase to $20 over the next couple of years. It has been debated for a few years now.
What research do you need that if someone currently goes to school for 4 years just to make $22/hr, they will no longer be able to fill those jobs if minimum wage is $20, unless they also increase that pay? What research do you need if a family run business pays 6 employees $10/hr and profits about 80k/year, they will be better off getting a minimum wage job themself than to pay each employee $20/hr. And the the 6 employees are out of a job. Yes, its a lot of speculation. But it makes common sense to most. National average for EMT is right around $20hr (some places even less). How many will strive to be an EMT if they can just work at the local McD's, or anywhere and make that same amount without a high school diploma? So either an EMT should make minimum wage, along with everyone else with specific training and skills, or those jobs will increase too. And that is just inflation, and helps no one. EMT is just one example of hundreds of jobs that a huge increase of minimum wage would have a drastic impact on. Either they become a minimum wage job too with all their training and skills, or you increase that salary. I think it was the CEO of Burger King who said if it goes to $15, he'll be firing half the employees and installing automated ordering systems because the cost will be too high. Either way it will hurt more than it benefits.
Yes, which puts more people in higher rates of consumption, which is what drives an economy. It's beyond common sense, and yet conservatives can't wrap their minds around the fact that more people spending more money is better for the economy than less people having more money.
So if you double everyone's pay, that solves poverty? Not how it works, the bottom will still be on the bottom if everyone gets paid more. Prices will rise accordingly to adjust for the inflation. So okay, now you make $20 an hour. But bread is now $5 instead of $2.50 because the entire country just got a pay raise.. Youre still in the same boat. You cant just give everyone more money and expect inflation not to occur. Thats why we "can't wrap our heads around it."
Stop with the scare tactics already. No one is advocating for "doubling everyone's pay." And not everyone is going to get "a pay raise." Someone making more than minimum wage is not going to have their pay doubled, no matter what you think the effect of inflation might be. What's the inflation rate in Seattle, I wonder?
There were/are politicians who did seek to raise the minimum to $15 immediately, with a plan to increase to $20 over the next couple of years. It has been debated for a few years now.
What research do you need that if someone currently goes to school for 4 years just to make $22/hr, they will no longer be able to fill those jobs if minimum wage is $20, unless they also increase that pay? What research do you need if a family run business pays 6 employees $10/hr and profits about 80k/year, they will be better off getting a minimum wage job themself than to pay each employee $20/hr. And the the 6 employees are out of a job. Yes, its a lot of speculation. But it makes common sense to most. National average for EMT is right around $20hr (some places even less). How many will strive to be an EMT if they can just work at the local McD's, or anywhere and make that same amount without a high school diploma? So either an EMT should make minimum wage, along with everyone else with specific training and skills, or those jobs will increase too. And that is just inflation, and helps no one. EMT is just one example of hundreds of jobs that a huge increase of minimum wage would have a drastic impact on. Either they become a minimum wage job too with all their training and skills, or you increase that salary. I think it was the CEO of Burger King who said if it goes to $15, he'll be firing half the employees and installing automated ordering systems because the cost will be too high. Either way it will hurt more than it benefits.
Yes, which puts more people in higher rates of consumption, which is what drives an economy. It's beyond common sense, and yet conservatives can't wrap their minds around the fact that more people spending more money is better for the economy than less people having more money.
So if you double everyone's pay, that solves poverty? Not how it works, the bottom will still be on the bottom if everyone gets paid more. Prices will rise accordingly to adjust for the inflation. So okay, now you make $20 an hour. But bread is now $5 instead of $2.50 because the entire country just got a pay raise.. Youre still in the same boat. You cant just give everyone more money and expect inflation not to occur. Thats why we "can't wrap our heads around it."
There were/are politicians who did seek to raise the minimum to $15 immediately, with a plan to increase to $20 over the next couple of years. It has been debated for a few years now.
What research do you need that if someone currently goes to school for 4 years just to make $22/hr, they will no longer be able to fill those jobs if minimum wage is $20, unless they also increase that pay? What research do you need if a family run business pays 6 employees $10/hr and profits about 80k/year, they will be better off getting a minimum wage job themself than to pay each employee $20/hr. And the the 6 employees are out of a job. Yes, its a lot of speculation. But it makes common sense to most. National average for EMT is right around $20hr (some places even less). How many will strive to be an EMT if they can just work at the local McD's, or anywhere and make that same amount without a high school diploma? So either an EMT should make minimum wage, along with everyone else with specific training and skills, or those jobs will increase too. And that is just inflation, and helps no one. EMT is just one example of hundreds of jobs that a huge increase of minimum wage would have a drastic impact on. Either they become a minimum wage job too with all their training and skills, or you increase that salary. I think it was the CEO of Burger King who said if it goes to $15, he'll be firing half the employees and installing automated ordering systems because the cost will be too high. Either way it will hurt more than it benefits.
Yes, which puts more people in higher rates of consumption, which is what drives an economy. It's beyond common sense, and yet conservatives can't wrap their minds around the fact that more people spending more money is better for the economy than less people having more money.
So if you double everyone's pay, that solves poverty? Not how it works, the bottom will still be on the bottom if everyone gets paid more. Prices will rise accordingly to adjust for the inflation. So okay, now you make $20 an hour. But bread is now $5 instead of $2.50 because the entire country just got a pay raise.. Youre still in the same boat. You cant just give everyone more money and expect inflation not to occur. Thats why we "can't wrap our heads around it."
Stop with the scare tactics already. No one is advocating for "doubling everyone's pay." And not everyone is going to get "a pay raise." Someone making more than minimum wage is not going to have their pay doubled, no matter what you think the effect of inflation might be. What's the inflation rate in Seattle, I wonder?
But that is exactly what was proposed. I pointed out many jobs currently get paid $15-$20 that require education, training and skills. What will happen to those jobs. The reply was to increase their wages as well. That wasnt my response, that was the solution proposed. Read the statement I was responding to. If you dont agree with that, then what do you think will happen to all jobs currently in the $15-$20 range than require training, education and specialized skills. Its a serious question, its not a scare tactic. What do you think will happen to the just out of college level jobs that pay $15-$20 an hour, when minimum wage becomes $15? They are going to stay the same, and essentially become a minimum wage jobs next to McDs? Or will they raise those wages to remain competative...which is essentially what you call scare tactics. Is there a third option to raising wages or not raising wages? Doesnt seem possible there could be, so either those skilled jobs become minimum wage jobs, or a large portion of society gets a raise. Large cities like Seattle and LA already have higher wages due to cost of living. A higher minimum wage there makes more sense, starting salaries are often already well above that. But smaller cities where starting salaries are equal to $15-$20 will have a bigger impact.
I dont think its a scare tactic point things out like a starting teacher in many states will make low to mid 30's. That is after 4 years of college, a year of getting a teaching credential that includes working for free, full time, for 6 months, hours of testing and paperwork just to get the credential. Or, someone who dropped out of high school can make close to that working at a new minimum wage of $15 an hour. And in 5 years, by the time their friends finished school and college, probably got promoted to assistant manager making $20 or $25 now. Meanwhile, the teacher is starting out his new career, $80,000 in debt, and making less than his friend who never graduated high school.
There were/are politicians who did seek to raise the minimum to $15 immediately, with a plan to increase to $20 over the next couple of years. It has been debated for a few years now.
What research do you need that if someone currently goes to school for 4 years just to make $22/hr, they will no longer be able to fill those jobs if minimum wage is $20, unless they also increase that pay? What research do you need if a family run business pays 6 employees $10/hr and profits about 80k/year, they will be better off getting a minimum wage job themself than to pay each employee $20/hr. And the the 6 employees are out of a job. Yes, its a lot of speculation. But it makes common sense to most. National average for EMT is right around $20hr (some places even less). How many will strive to be an EMT if they can just work at the local McD's, or anywhere and make that same amount without a high school diploma? So either an EMT should make minimum wage, along with everyone else with specific training and skills, or those jobs will increase too. And that is just inflation, and helps no one. EMT is just one example of hundreds of jobs that a huge increase of minimum wage would have a drastic impact on. Either they become a minimum wage job too with all their training and skills, or you increase that salary. I think it was the CEO of Burger King who said if it goes to $15, he'll be firing half the employees and installing automated ordering systems because the cost will be too high. Either way it will hurt more than it benefits.
Yes, which puts more people in higher rates of consumption, which is what drives an economy. It's beyond common sense, and yet conservatives can't wrap their minds around the fact that more people spending more money is better for the economy than less people having more money.
So if you double everyone's pay, that solves poverty? Not how it works, the bottom will still be on the bottom if everyone gets paid more. Prices will rise accordingly to adjust for the inflation. So okay, now you make $20 an hour. But bread is now $5 instead of $2.50 because the entire country just got a pay raise.. Youre still in the same boat. You cant just give everyone more money and expect inflation not to occur. Thats why we "can't wrap our heads around it."
Stop with the scare tactics already. No one is advocating for "doubling everyone's pay." And not everyone is going to get "a pay raise." Someone making more than minimum wage is not going to have their pay doubled, no matter what you think the effect of inflation might be. What's the inflation rate in Seattle, I wonder?
But that is exactly what was proposed. I pointed out many jobs currently get paid $15-$20 that require education, training and skills. What will happen to those jobs. The reply was to increase their wages as well. That wasnt my response, that was the solution proposed. Read the statement I was responding to. If you dont agree with that, then what do you think will happen to all jobs currently in the $15-$20 range than require training, education and specialized skills. Its a serious question, its not a scare tactic. What do you think will happen to the just out of college level jobs that pay $15-$20 an hour, when minimum wage becomes $15? They are going to stay the same, and essentially become a minimum wage jobs next to McDs? Or will they raise those wages to remain competative...which is essentially what you call scare tactics. Is there a third option to raising wages or not raising wages? Doesnt seem possible there could be, so either those skilled jobs become minimum wage jobs, or a large portion of society gets a raise.
There will always be "minimum wage" jobs, right? Those at the basement of the wage scale. Folks making $20 an hour in Seattle aren't going to quit or demand a $5.00 an hour pay raise because the minimum went to $15 an hour in 2021. That difference is stil $200 a wee or $8K a year. Worth the effort of additional education or college, in my opinion. Maybe not yours. It's not going to increase wages across the wage sector. Where I work, the unions regularly negotiate better than inflation pay increases. Do I get the same
And back to my original point why I even brought this up. Liberals are seen as wanting to help, and conservatives are seen as self serving. Was even mentioned as such in this thread. I disagree. I wasn't trying to convince anyone about minimum wage. Just pointing out there are reasons that are not self serving for the stances they have. Minimum wage was just the example I mentioned. Maybe you think my reasons are moronic, and maybe you'll be proven right. But it isn't about not wanting to help, we see it as creating a bigger burden than it solves.
I dont think its a scare tactic point things out like a starting teacher in many states will make low to mid 30's. That is after 4 years of college, a year of getting a teaching credential that includes working for free, full time, for 6 months, hours of testing and paperwork just to get the credential. Or, someone who dropped out of high school can make close to that working at a new minimum wage of $15 an hour. And in 5 years, by the time their friends finished school and college, probably got promoted to assistant manager making $20 or $25 now. Meanwhile, the teacher is starting out his new career, $80,000 in debt, and making less than his friend who never graduated high school.
Arguing that professions don't make enough so those without professions shouldn't make more doesn't make sense. A rising tide lifts all boats... Unless you start at the bottom, you can't do that apparently.
Oh and by the way, inflation already occured, the wage hikes are only trying to keep pace, obviously.
There were/are politicians who did seek to raise the minimum to $15 immediately, with a plan to increase to $20 over the next couple of years. It has been debated for a few years now.
What research do you need that if someone currently goes to school for 4 years just to make $22/hr, they will no longer be able to fill those jobs if minimum wage is $20, unless they also increase that pay? What research do you need if a family run business pays 6 employees $10/hr and profits about 80k/year, they will be better off getting a minimum wage job themself than to pay each employee $20/hr. And the the 6 employees are out of a job. Yes, its a lot of speculation. But it makes common sense to most. National average for EMT is right around $20hr (some places even less). How many will strive to be an EMT if they can just work at the local McD's, or anywhere and make that same amount without a high school diploma? So either an EMT should make minimum wage, along with everyone else with specific training and skills, or those jobs will increase too. And that is just inflation, and helps no one. EMT is just one example of hundreds of jobs that a huge increase of minimum wage would have a drastic impact on. Either they become a minimum wage job too with all their training and skills, or you increase that salary. I think it was the CEO of Burger King who said if it goes to $15, he'll be firing half the employees and installing automated ordering systems because the cost will be too high. Either way it will hurt more than it benefits.
Yes, which puts more people in higher rates of consumption, which is what drives an economy. It's beyond common sense, and yet conservatives can't wrap their minds around the fact that more people spending more money is better for the economy than less people having more money.
So if you double everyone's pay, that solves poverty? Not how it works, the bottom will still be on the bottom if everyone gets paid more. Prices will rise accordingly to adjust for the inflation. So okay, now you make $20 an hour. But bread is now $5 instead of $2.50 because the entire country just got a pay raise.. Youre still in the same boat. You cant just give everyone more money and expect inflation not to occur. Thats why we "can't wrap our heads around it."
This is the part I don't get either. I used to try to enter into the minimum wage discussions, but tend not to venture in very often because they don't end up making any sense. If you currently have a couple of pay grades in your business, say $10 for new employees and $15 for employees who are experienced, senior employees, and suddenly minimum wage is raised from $10 to $15, do you pay both $15? Or do you now bump the senior employees to $20? If you leave the seniors at $15, good luck retaining employees. You'll now have a business filled with unskilled labor offering substandard quality products and services. If you bump the senior employees to $20, you've now radically increased labor costs. If you run a tight margin business, that leaves you with a couple of options - fewer employees (so that your labor cost remains flat - doesn't help minimum wage earners), fewer hours for employees (so that your labor cost remains flat - doesn't help minimum wage earners) or increased prices for your goods or services (to compensate for increased labor costs). That pay increase doesn't just come out of some unicorn's fart. So if you raise prices of your burgers from $7 to $10, will you still sell the same number of burgers because people now have customers with additional income, or will those same people who struggled at $10 an hour, now struggle at $15 because costs are rising for all of the things they need to purchase. Due to the rise in cost for that burger and everything else, discretionary spending won't necessarily increase. Inflation has taken care of that. So we're left with status quo, but people's checks "appear" to be larger, and Uncle Sam can now grab more of it. Yippee! What's been accomplished? (aside from people feeling good that they passed a bill increasing wages for everyone).
But ultimately I think the minimum wage discussion is a distraction. It has nothing to do with a living wage even though people interchange minimum wage with living wage. The reality, based on the link from the Bureau of Labor Statistics posted by Halifax clearly shows that the low income earners are young, unmarried, part-time, less educated and living in the South. Minimum wage was never intended to be a living wage for the breadwinner of the family. It was intended for a low-skilled, young person trying to earn weed, beer and gas money and to give them a start at learning to hold a job. PJSoul made a good point about the inadequacy of a federal minimum wage, since a vast disparity exists between economies of locales around the country. Seattle's $15/hr minimum wage has been brought up, but again, that is in no way a living wage for this area. A family of 4 making $72,000 in Seattle is now considered low income (median income is $96.000). That's the problem. The other problem is that while median income in Seattle is $96,000, the median house price in Seattle is $722,000, doubled from just 5 years ago . So even if you aren't "low income" and are making the median income, you cannot afford to buy a house here. It is even worse in San Francisco.
So if people want to champion a minimum wage to make themselves feel better, go for it. The reality is that your cause won't do shit to address the inability of working families being able to make a living wage or to ever afford a home in many areas.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
And back to my original point why I even brought this up. Liberals are seen as wanting to help, and conservatives are seen as self serving. Was even mentioned as such in this thread. I disagree. I wasn't trying to convince anyone about minimum wage. Just pointing out there are reasons that are not self serving for the stances they have. Minimum wage was just the example I mentioned. Maybe you think my reasons are moronic, and maybe you'll be proven right. But it isn't about not wanting to help, we see it as creating a bigger burden than it solves.
What is this burden of which you speak? Facts matter, hashtag.
There were/are politicians who did seek to raise the minimum to $15 immediately, with a plan to increase to $20 over the next couple of years. It has been debated for a few years now.
What research do you need that if someone currently goes to school for 4 years just to make $22/hr, they will no longer be able to fill those jobs if minimum wage is $20, unless they also increase that pay? What research do you need if a family run business pays 6 employees $10/hr and profits about 80k/year, they will be better off getting a minimum wage job themself than to pay each employee $20/hr. And the the 6 employees are out of a job. Yes, its a lot of speculation. But it makes common sense to most. National average for EMT is right around $20hr (some places even less). How many will strive to be an EMT if they can just work at the local McD's, or anywhere and make that same amount without a high school diploma? So either an EMT should make minimum wage, along with everyone else with specific training and skills, or those jobs will increase too. And that is just inflation, and helps no one. EMT is just one example of hundreds of jobs that a huge increase of minimum wage would have a drastic impact on. Either they become a minimum wage job too with all their training and skills, or you increase that salary. I think it was the CEO of Burger King who said if it goes to $15, he'll be firing half the employees and installing automated ordering systems because the cost will be too high. Either way it will hurt more than it benefits.
Yes, which puts more people in higher rates of consumption, which is what drives an economy. It's beyond common sense, and yet conservatives can't wrap their minds around the fact that more people spending more money is better for the economy than less people having more money.
So if you double everyone's pay, that solves poverty? Not how it works, the bottom will still be on the bottom if everyone gets paid more. Prices will rise accordingly to adjust for the inflation. So okay, now you make $20 an hour. But bread is now $5 instead of $2.50 because the entire country just got a pay raise.. Youre still in the same boat. You cant just give everyone more money and expect inflation not to occur. Thats why we "can't wrap our heads around it."
This is the part I don't get either. I used to try to enter into the minimum wage discussions, but tend not to venture in very often because they don't end up making any sense. If you currently have a couple of pay grades in your business, say $10 for new employees and $15 for employees who are experienced, senior employees, and suddenly minimum wage is raised from $10 to $15, do you pay both $15? Or do you now bump the senior employees to $20? If you leave the seniors at $15, good luck retaining employees. You'll now have a business filled with unskilled labor offering substandard quality products and services. If you bump the senior employees to $20, you've now radically increased labor costs. If you run a tight margin business, that leaves you with a couple of options - fewer employees (so that your labor cost remains flat - doesn't help minimum wage earners), fewer hours for employees (so that your labor cost remains flat - doesn't help minimum wage earners) or increased prices for your goods or services (to compensate for increased labor costs). That pay increase doesn't just come out of some unicorn's fart. So if you raise prices of your burgers from $7 to $10, will you still sell the same number of burgers because people now have customers with additional income, or will those same people who struggled at $10 an hour, now struggle at $15 because costs are rising for all of the things they need to purchase. Due to the rise in cost for that burger and everything else, discretionary spending won't necessarily increase. Inflation has taken care of that. So we're left with status quo, but people's checks "appear" to be larger, and Uncle Sam can now grab more of it. Yippee! What's been accomplished? (aside from people feeling good that they passed a bill increasing wages for everyone).
But ultimately I think the minimum wage discussion is a distraction. It has nothing to do with a living wage even though people interchange minimum wage with living wage. The reality, based on the link from the Bureau of Labor Statistics posted by Halifax clearly shows that the low income earners are young, unmarried, part-time, less educated and living in the South. Minimum wage was never intended to be a living wage for the breadwinner of the family. It was intended for a low-skilled, young person trying to earn weed, beer and gas money and to give them a start at learning to hold a job. PJSoul made a good point about the inadequacy of a federal minimum wage, since a vast disparity exists between economies of locales around the country. Seattle's $15/hr minimum wage has been brought up, but again, that is in no way a living wage for this area. A family of 4 making $72,000 in Seattle is now considered low income (median income is $96.000). That's the problem. The other problem is that while median income in Seattle is $96,000, the median house price in Seattle is $722,000, doubled from just 5 years ago . So even if you aren't "low income" and are making the median income, you cannot afford to buy a house here. It is even worse in San Francisco.
So if people want to champion a minimum wage to make themselves feel better, go for it. The reality is that your cause won't do shit to address the inability of working families being able to make a living wage or to ever afford a home in many areas.
Nobody is claiming that a minimum wage should afford you to buy a house. Man you guys shift the goal posts. A lot.
There were/are politicians who did seek to raise the minimum to $15 immediately, with a plan to increase to $20 over the next couple of years. It has been debated for a few years now.
What research do you need that if someone currently goes to school for 4 years just to make $22/hr, they will no longer be able to fill those jobs if minimum wage is $20, unless they also increase that pay? What research do you need if a family run business pays 6 employees $10/hr and profits about 80k/year, they will be better off getting a minimum wage job themself than to pay each employee $20/hr. And the the 6 employees are out of a job. Yes, its a lot of speculation. But it makes common sense to most. National average for EMT is right around $20hr (some places even less). How many will strive to be an EMT if they can just work at the local McD's, or anywhere and make that same amount without a high school diploma? So either an EMT should make minimum wage, along with everyone else with specific training and skills, or those jobs will increase too. And that is just inflation, and helps no one. EMT is just one example of hundreds of jobs that a huge increase of minimum wage would have a drastic impact on. Either they become a minimum wage job too with all their training and skills, or you increase that salary. I think it was the CEO of Burger King who said if it goes to $15, he'll be firing half the employees and installing automated ordering systems because the cost will be too high. Either way it will hurt more than it benefits.
Yes, which puts more people in higher rates of consumption, which is what drives an economy. It's beyond common sense, and yet conservatives can't wrap their minds around the fact that more people spending more money is better for the economy than less people having more money.
So if you double everyone's pay, that solves poverty? Not how it works, the bottom will still be on the bottom if everyone gets paid more. Prices will rise accordingly to adjust for the inflation. So okay, now you make $20 an hour. But bread is now $5 instead of $2.50 because the entire country just got a pay raise.. Youre still in the same boat. You cant just give everyone more money and expect inflation not to occur. Thats why we "can't wrap our heads around it."
This is the part I don't get either. I used to try to enter into the minimum wage discussions, but tend not to venture in very often because they don't end up making any sense. If you currently have a couple of pay grades in your business, say $10 for new employees and $15 for employees who are experienced, senior employees, and suddenly minimum wage is raised from $10 to $15, do you pay both $15? Or do you now bump the senior employees to $20? If you leave the seniors at $15, good luck retaining employees. You'll now have a business filled with unskilled labor offering substandard quality products and services. If you bump the senior employees to $20, you've now radically increased labor costs. If you run a tight margin business, that leaves you with a couple of options - fewer employees (so that your labor cost remains flat - doesn't help minimum wage earners), fewer hours for employees (so that your labor cost remains flat - doesn't help minimum wage earners) or increased prices for your goods or services (to compensate for increased labor costs). That pay increase doesn't just come out of some unicorn's fart. So if you raise prices of your burgers from $7 to $10, will you still sell the same number of burgers because people now have customers with additional income, or will those same people who struggled at $10 an hour, now struggle at $15 because costs are rising for all of the things they need to purchase. Due to the rise in cost for that burger and everything else, discretionary spending won't necessarily increase. Inflation has taken care of that. So we're left with status quo, but people's checks "appear" to be larger, and Uncle Sam can now grab more of it. Yippee! What's been accomplished? (aside from people feeling good that they passed a bill increasing wages for everyone).
But ultimately I think the minimum wage discussion is a distraction. It has nothing to do with a living wage even though people interchange minimum wage with living wage. The reality, based on the link from the Bureau of Labor Statistics posted by Halifax clearly shows that the low income earners are young, unmarried, part-time, less educated and living in the South. Minimum wage was never intended to be a living wage for the breadwinner of the family. It was intended for a low-skilled, young person trying to earn weed, beer and gas money and to give them a start at learning to hold a job. PJSoul made a good point about the inadequacy of a federal minimum wage, since a vast disparity exists between economies of locales around the country. Seattle's $15/hr minimum wage has been brought up, but again, that is in no way a living wage for this area. A family of 4 making $72,000 in Seattle is now considered low income (median income is $96.000). That's the problem. The other problem is that while median income in Seattle is $96,000, the median house price in Seattle is $722,000, doubled from just 5 years ago . So even if you aren't "low income" and are making the median income, you cannot afford to buy a house here. It is even worse in San Francisco.
So if people want to champion a minimum wage to make themselves feel better, go for it. The reality is that your cause won't do shit to address the inability of working families being able to make a living wage or to ever afford a home in many areas.
Nobody is claiming that a minimum wage should afford you to buy a house. Man you guys shift the goal posts. A lot.
Not sure who "you guys" are who you referred to, and not sure what you are trying to accomplish with the minimum wage. More weed money for non-skilled stoners?
Edit: and as I specifically said, I don't really give much of a shit about the minimum wage. It is a distraction from the real issue of families trying to make a living wage (nothing to do with minimum wage) trying to afford to live day-to-day. It isn't just about buying a house. If house prices are high, it follows that rent prices are high as well. Around here millennials are moving out of the city in droves in search of affordable housing and a future. They aren't minimum wage earners. You're the one stuck on minimum wage. I was trying to make the point that there is a larger problem. This isn't a minimum wage thread, so I didn't think it was against the rules to make a tangential point. But if you'd prefer that this be a minimum wage thread, have at it.
Post edited by jeffbr on
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
There were/are politicians who did seek to raise the minimum to $15 immediately, with a plan to increase to $20 over the next couple of years. It has been debated for a few years now.
What research do you need that if someone currently goes to school for 4 years just to make $22/hr, they will no longer be able to fill those jobs if minimum wage is $20, unless they also increase that pay? What research do you need if a family run business pays 6 employees $10/hr and profits about 80k/year, they will be better off getting a minimum wage job themself than to pay each employee $20/hr. And the the 6 employees are out of a job. Yes, its a lot of speculation. But it makes common sense to most. National average for EMT is right around $20hr (some places even less). How many will strive to be an EMT if they can just work at the local McD's, or anywhere and make that same amount without a high school diploma? So either an EMT should make minimum wage, along with everyone else with specific training and skills, or those jobs will increase too. And that is just inflation, and helps no one. EMT is just one example of hundreds of jobs that a huge increase of minimum wage would have a drastic impact on. Either they become a minimum wage job too with all their training and skills, or you increase that salary. I think it was the CEO of Burger King who said if it goes to $15, he'll be firing half the employees and installing automated ordering systems because the cost will be too high. Either way it will hurt more than it benefits.
Yes, which puts more people in higher rates of consumption, which is what drives an economy. It's beyond common sense, and yet conservatives can't wrap their minds around the fact that more people spending more money is better for the economy than less people having more money.
So if you double everyone's pay, that solves poverty? Not how it works, the bottom will still be on the bottom if everyone gets paid more. Prices will rise accordingly to adjust for the inflation. So okay, now you make $20 an hour. But bread is now $5 instead of $2.50 because the entire country just got a pay raise.. Youre still in the same boat. You cant just give everyone more money and expect inflation not to occur. Thats why we "can't wrap our heads around it."
This is the part I don't get either. I used to try to enter into the minimum wage discussions, but tend not to venture in very often because they don't end up making any sense. If you currently have a couple of pay grades in your business, say $10 for new employees and $15 for employees who are experienced, senior employees, and suddenly minimum wage is raised from $10 to $15, do you pay both $15? Or do you now bump the senior employees to $20? If you leave the seniors at $15, good luck retaining employees. You'll now have a business filled with unskilled labor offering substandard quality products and services. If you bump the senior employees to $20, you've now radically increased labor costs. If you run a tight margin business, that leaves you with a couple of options - fewer employees (so that your labor cost remains flat - doesn't help minimum wage earners), fewer hours for employees (so that your labor cost remains flat - doesn't help minimum wage earners) or increased prices for your goods or services (to compensate for increased labor costs). That pay increase doesn't just come out of some unicorn's fart. So if you raise prices of your burgers from $7 to $10, will you still sell the same number of burgers because people now have customers with additional income, or will those same people who struggled at $10 an hour, now struggle at $15 because costs are rising for all of the things they need to purchase. Due to the rise in cost for that burger and everything else, discretionary spending won't necessarily increase. Inflation has taken care of that. So we're left with status quo, but people's checks "appear" to be larger, and Uncle Sam can now grab more of it. Yippee! What's been accomplished? (aside from people feeling good that they passed a bill increasing wages for everyone).
But ultimately I think the minimum wage discussion is a distraction. It has nothing to do with a living wage even though people interchange minimum wage with living wage. The reality, based on the link from the Bureau of Labor Statistics posted by Halifax clearly shows that the low income earners are young, unmarried, part-time, less educated and living in the South. Minimum wage was never intended to be a living wage for the breadwinner of the family. It was intended for a low-skilled, young person trying to earn weed, beer and gas money and to give them a start at learning to hold a job. PJSoul made a good point about the inadequacy of a federal minimum wage, since a vast disparity exists between economies of locales around the country. Seattle's $15/hr minimum wage has been brought up, but again, that is in no way a living wage for this area. A family of 4 making $72,000 in Seattle is now considered low income (median income is $96.000). That's the problem. The other problem is that while median income in Seattle is $96,000, the median house price in Seattle is $722,000, doubled from just 5 years ago . So even if you aren't "low income" and are making the median income, you cannot afford to buy a house here. It is even worse in San Francisco.
So if people want to champion a minimum wage to make themselves feel better, go for it. The reality is that your cause won't do shit to address the inability of working families being able to make a living wage or to ever afford a home in many areas.
Nobody is claiming that a minimum wage should afford you to buy a house. Man you guys shift the goal posts. A lot.
Not sure who "you guys" are who you referred to, and not sure what you are trying to accomplish with the minimum wage. More weed money for non-skilled stoners?
Edit: and as I specifically said, I don't really give much of a shit about the minimum wage. It is a distraction from the real issue of families trying to make a living wage (nothing to do with minimum wage) trying to afford to live day-to-day. It isn't just about buying a house. If house prices are high, it follows that rent prices are high as well. Around here millennials are moving out of the city in droves in search of affordable housing and a future. They aren't minimum wage earners. You're the one stuck on minimum wage. I was trying to make the point that there is a larger problem. This isn't a minimum wage thread, so I didn't think it was against the rules to make a tangential point. But if you'd prefer that this be a minimum wage thread, have at it.
Wow, just wow. Okay. Wow. Now it's about rent. You guys claim that raising the minimum wage to, pick a number, results in catastrophic wage and inflation misery. I've read BS regarding jobs, technology, housing and inflation. All I'm asking for are facts and answers to your supposition, where has it been proven that more disposable income, for a small minority of the population results in this ruin? Seattle home prices are driven by minimum wage increases to $15 an hour? Really? Blame pj instead because BBH moved there, ok?
Comments
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_States
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The fact is plain, there is no hard evidence that min wage hikes cost jobs, probably none that they hurt the economy otherwise, either.
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What research do you need that if someone currently goes to school for 4 years just to make $22/hr, they will no longer be able to fill those jobs if minimum wage is $20, unless they also increase that pay?
What research do you need if a family run business pays 6 employees $10/hr and profits about 80k/year, they will be better off getting a minimum wage job themself than to pay each employee $20/hr. And the the 6 employees are out of a job.
Yes, its a lot of speculation. But it makes common sense to most. National average for EMT is right around $20hr (some places even less). How many will strive to be an EMT if they can just work at the local McD's, or anywhere and make that same amount without a high school diploma?
So either an EMT should make minimum wage, along with everyone else with specific training and skills, or those jobs will increase too. And that is just inflation, and helps no one.
EMT is just one example of hundreds of jobs that a huge increase of minimum wage would have a drastic impact on. Either they become a minimum wage job too with all their training and skills, or you increase that salary.
I think it was the CEO of Burger King who said if it goes to $15, he'll be firing half the employees and installing automated ordering systems because the cost will be too high. Either way it will hurt more than it benefits.
Because everything I've read about it is that small, family businesses with less than X number of employees (15 sticks in my mind) is exempt. And there are many exemptions state to state. Some go full bore, others not so much. Which politicians and which states or Feds are arguing for $20 per hour? I've never read that or heard about it. Debated and being enacted are two completely different things. Seeing how you won't address questions and are relying on supposition, here's some facts:
https://fortress.wa.gov/esd/employmentdata/docs/economic-reports/current-monthly-employment-report.pdf
I'm not arguing that the unemployment rate is due to Seattle's drive to $15.00 an hour but its not having the effect that you claim, either. Also, Starbucks pays their part time employees $15.00 an hour and provides paid time off and college tuition assistance. Has Starbucks gone out of business? Has DD or Tim Horton's raised their prices as a result? Do any of them have trouble finding labor? I'm not sure it will hurt more than it'll help. Would you argue that WalMart can't afford to pay their folks more? Have you seen WalMarts profit margin and dollar amounts for the 7 members of the WalMart family? And why is it always good to give the rich or corporations tax cuts? People spend money. Spent money creates jobs. Created jobs tighten the labor market. Tightened labor market raises wages. Which by the way have been stagnant for decades, despite increased productivity and record corporate profits. Facts.
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I don't know who said it, but maybe there shouldn't be a standard federal minimum wage. If you live in small town USA, $15.00/hour is awesome, but in a major city, not so much. If somewhere isn't paying a fair wage, employees will quit and the business won't survive.
But I was wrong about the $20. I think it came from the phrase "livable wage" and many define that as over $20. And since many who fight to increase minimum wage argue for a livable wage, and I incorrectly linked the 2. The highest propposed so far is $15.
So you think a small family business with 6 employees is going to be able to find and hire people for $10, when they can go next door and work at McD's for $15? And therefore that solves the problem though? I think it would hurt the small business even more.
Sure, Walmart can afford it. That doesnt mean they wont find ways to not cut into their profit.
How many automated checkout stands do you see now? I may see 1 actually cashier at Home Depot, and 5 or 6 self checkout. Same with the grocery store. If it is cheaper to fire employees and hire an automated system, most places will do it.
It was the CEO of Carls Jr, not Burger King who said he plans to purchase more machines and fewer employees.
http://www.inquisitr.com/2900892/carls-jr-ceo-wants-to-open-fully-automated-fast-food-restaurant-is-this-the-answer-to-minimum-wage-increase-demands/
Different argument. Now you're arguing the impact of technology on jobs. Maybe mom and pop need to incentivize working for them? Can't compete with wages? How about flexible scheduling? Time off? Part time stay at home mom's with kids in school type scheduling? Bonus structure? Or gains in efficiency, less employees with the savings either way going toward wages? Maybe relocate to where there's more labor supply? We all have to deal with change, daily, why should small business be exempt? And you keep harping on 6 employees. Small businesses are usually exempt from a whole range of requirements on the state and federal level. And unemployment is highest among those with a high school diploma or less. Manufacturing isn't coming back unless its smart manufacturing and we're a knowledge based economy now.
https://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm
I brought up Obama because if you look at the graph and employment info I posted, the US is basically at full employment. My own theory is that there is a segment of the population who are unemployable because they're just fuck ups of one kind or another. I don't know why, they just are.
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It's beyond common sense, and yet conservatives can't wrap their minds around the fact that more people spending more money is better for the economy than less people having more money.
truer than you think and then those jobs will be new "jobs Americans don't want"
then the cycle of "those poor illegal immigrants" will gain more traction.....but the good news is that
it will take a while to drive down the retail cost of mom and pops products to meet their cheap labor
the illegal immigrants so graciously provide....
Where did I say, "illegal?" I'm not advocating for mom and pop to hire illegals but perhaps you are? And immigrants buy stuff, dontcha know?
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Please let me know when those high school dropouts or typical American kids in the 18 to 22 year old range are going to go to work at the meat processing facility, factory farm and/or pick crops. Or maybe pick up a hammer and swing it on one of those monsterous home developments popping up in NC, FL or TX, okay?
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Some good facts here:
https://www.sba.gov/advocacy/firm-size-data
Size, number of employees, payroll, etc. Another link shows averages but seems dated. Even if profit is 5% of revenue for a small business with a website, they're not doing too badly. But what do I know?
https://www.entrepreneur.com/page/216022
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Not how it works, the bottom will still be on the bottom if everyone gets paid more. Prices will rise accordingly to adjust for the inflation.
So okay, now you make $20 an hour. But bread is now $5 instead of $2.50 because the entire country just got a pay raise.. Youre still in the same boat.
You cant just give everyone more money and expect inflation not to occur. Thats why we "can't wrap our heads around it."
Stop with the scare tactics already. No one is advocating for "doubling everyone's pay." And not everyone is going to get "a pay raise." Someone making more than minimum wage is not going to have their pay doubled, no matter what you think the effect of inflation might be. What's the inflation rate in Seattle, I wonder?
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Try to wrap your head around some facts:
https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2015/home.htm
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If you dont agree with that, then what do you think will happen to all jobs currently in the $15-$20 range than require training, education and specialized skills.
Its a serious question, its not a scare tactic. What do you think will happen to the just out of college level jobs that pay $15-$20 an hour, when minimum wage becomes $15? They are going to stay the same, and essentially become a minimum wage jobs next to McDs? Or will they raise those wages to remain competative...which is essentially what you call scare tactics. Is there a third option to raising wages or not raising wages? Doesnt seem possible there could be, so either those skilled jobs become minimum wage jobs, or a large portion of society gets a raise.
Large cities like Seattle and LA already have higher wages due to cost of living. A higher minimum wage there makes more sense, starting salaries are often already well above that. But smaller cities where starting salaries are equal to $15-$20 will have a bigger impact.
Meanwhile, the teacher is starting out his new career, $80,000 in debt, and making less than his friend who never graduated high school.
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A rising tide lifts all boats... Unless you start at the bottom, you can't do that apparently.
Oh and by the way, inflation already occured, the wage hikes are only trying to keep pace, obviously.
But ultimately I think the minimum wage discussion is a distraction. It has nothing to do with a living wage even though people interchange minimum wage with living wage. The reality, based on the link from the Bureau of Labor Statistics posted by Halifax clearly shows that the low income earners are young, unmarried, part-time, less educated and living in the South. Minimum wage was never intended to be a living wage for the breadwinner of the family. It was intended for a low-skilled, young person trying to earn weed, beer and gas money and to give them a start at learning to hold a job. PJSoul made a good point about the inadequacy of a federal minimum wage, since a vast disparity exists between economies of locales around the country. Seattle's $15/hr minimum wage has been brought up, but again, that is in no way a living wage for this area. A family of 4 making $72,000 in Seattle is now considered low income (median income is $96.000). That's the problem. The other problem is that while median income in Seattle is $96,000, the median house price in Seattle is $722,000, doubled from just 5 years ago . So even if you aren't "low income" and are making the median income, you cannot afford to buy a house here. It is even worse in San Francisco.
So if people want to champion a minimum wage to make themselves feel better, go for it. The reality is that your cause won't do shit to address the inability of working families being able to make a living wage or to ever afford a home in many areas.
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https://www.bls.gov/regions/west/news-release/consumerpriceindex_seattle.htm
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Edit: and as I specifically said, I don't really give much of a shit about the minimum wage. It is a distraction from the real issue of families trying to make a living wage (nothing to do with minimum wage) trying to afford to live day-to-day. It isn't just about buying a house. If house prices are high, it follows that rent prices are high as well. Around here millennials are moving out of the city in droves in search of affordable housing and a future. They aren't minimum wage earners. You're the one stuck on minimum wage. I was trying to make the point that there is a larger problem. This isn't a minimum wage thread, so I didn't think it was against the rules to make a tangential point. But if you'd prefer that this be a minimum wage thread, have at it.
facts matter.
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