Donald Trump

1189919001902190419051926

Comments

  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 31,678
    Sec. 4.1. General Restrictions on Access.

    (a) A person may have access to classified information provided that: (1) a favorable determination of eligibility for access has been made by an agency head or the agency head’s designee; (2) the person has signed an approved nondisclosure agreement; and (3) the person has a need-to-know the information. (b) Every person who has met the standards for access to classified information in paragraph (a) of this section shall receive contemporaneous training on the proper safeguarding of classified information and on the criminal, civil, and administrative sanctions that may be imposed on an individual who fails to protect classified information from unauthorized disclosure. 


    Sec. 4.4. Access by Historical Researchers and Certain Former Government Personnel.

    (a) The requirement in section 4.1(a)(3) of this order that access to classified information may be granted only to individuals who have a need-to-know the information may be waived for persons who:

    (1) are engaged in historical research projects; (2) previously have occupied senior policy-making positions to which they were appointed or designated by the President or the Vice President; or (3) served as President or Vice President. (b) Waivers under this section may be granted only if the agency head or senior agency official of the originating agency: (1) determines in writing that access is consistent with the interest of the national security; (2) takes appropriate steps to protect classified information from unauthorized disclosure or compromise, and ensures that the information is safeguarded in a manner consistent with this order
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 5,002
    Pages 3, 4, 8 & 11 of the link are relevant. Notice the word "trustworthy." Brandon did not extend the time-honored courtesy of allowing POOTWH access to classified information, briefings or anything to do with TOP Secret information after he left the Oval on 1/20/21 because he had proven himself to be "untrustworthy."

    https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80B01495R000200090013-0.pdf
    That sort of misses the nuance of this claim from the trump camp.


    1. Trump could have declassified all his documents before leaving office through a process that isn’t defined 

    2. Biden could have revoked trumps security clearance on day 1. Trump already declassified the documents he took making this moot for the purposes of these specific records.

    3. hypothetically Biden could have reclassified them that same way, and trump may or may not have been told. maybe it was part of the discussion the DOJ has with the Trump camp and he could be in possession of (re) classified documents

    all of this deals with presidents specifically.  There is an article on NBC about it too. 

     Apparently until someone updates the classification stamps no none else can touch them. Even if they are unclassified. That seems to put anyone other than a sitting president back into legal jeopardy if the stamp is above their security clearance 

    it’s a mess 





    1. Consider the source of the “claim.” A “claim “ does not make it so.

    2. Did POOTWH declassify the documents in question and if so, what process did he use, if any?

    3. Maybe that’s true but the Constitution clearly has language about swearing an oath, protecting the nation from enemies, foreign and domestic, and consequences for committing treason.

    4. It’s a mess because it’s POOTWH. Regardless, if he declassified them, he stole them and he jeopardized our national security. 3 and the National Archives law, which POOTWH renewed with stiffer penalties, kick in for the law and order crowd and the Constitutional purists amongst us.
    Point #2 specifically is what I’m talking about.  There isn’t a process.  Legal scholars generally agree.  A president can declassify on demand and don’t need to notify anyone.  That doesn’t mean anyone else can touch them though until a process to stamp them correctly happens 

    4.  I totally agree he took them and that’s a crime 

    even if he is charged, there is a lot to go through.  He’s got a solid claim on some of it, not because it’s right but because no one anticipated someone would do this. There isn’t a guardrail. Getting this done before 2024 may not happen.

    because this has never happened there are several things that could go to the Supreme Court. It’s going to take a long time 

    Some of these laws have no enforcement mechanism or penalty. IE the presidential records act.  So if you are accusing him of breaking one law but having to prosecute him under a more general mishandling of government documents law it gets really murky 

    Regarding point two, can a president declassify top secret nuclear documents? It seems like there must be a check on that, or what would stop a former president on his last day declassify essential secrets for a bribe?
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 11,705
    If it wasnt illegal there wouldn’t have been a raid by the FBI.  
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 31,678
    This fucking guy shouldn't be anywhere near the WH. From the WaPo:

    Former senior intelligence officials said in interviews that during the Trump administration, highly classified intelligence about sensitive topics, including about intelligence-gathering on Iran, was routinely mishandled. One former official said the most highly classified information often ended up in the hands of personnel who didn’t appear to have a need to possess it or weren’t authorized to read it.

    That former official also said signals intelligence — intercepted electronic communications like emails and phone calls of foreign leaders — was among the type of information that often ended up with unauthorized personnel. Such intercepts are among the most closely guarded secrets because of what they can reveal about how the United States has penetrated foreign governments.

    So, is it a PTAPE or a deep-seated hatred for America?

    #putinontheritziswinning

    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 31,678
    “Special Access Process, SAP.” Documents that require special handling, extremely limited access and only reviewable in highly secure rooms. Do you think POOTWH knew where or how to get them? Who authorized their release from these secure processes and knew they were leaving the WH? There’s more than POOTWH in trouble. And there is a process to be followed and POOTWH can’t just declare with a wave of the hand and say the words, “ I hear by decertify these papers,” and spirit them away.

    Somebody put Team POOTWH Treason in that Q calculator, please.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 31,678
    Sure, no quid pro quo. $2B investment fund guarantees $25M to Jared Dear Boy, despite performance. Jared Dear Boy had to amend his security clearance at least six times and Team POOTWH Treason eventually granted him his clearance, outside normal channels. And here we are, but oh, Hunter’s laptop, Hillary’s emails and Obama’s 33 million pages of documents (cleared and authorized to go to Chicago by the National Archives for his presidential library). From Letter From An American:

    But what springs to mind for me is the plan pushed by Trump’s first national security advisor, Michael Flynn, Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner, and fundraiser and campaign advisor Tom Barrack, to transfer nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia. In 2019, whistleblowers from the National Security Council worried that their efforts might have broken the law and that the effort to make the transfer was ongoing. The plan was to enable Saudi leaders to build nuclear power plants, a plan that would have yielded billions of dollars to the investors but would have allowed Saudi Arabia to build nuclear weapons.


    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 26,178
    edited August 12
     

     
    Trump calls for 'immediate' release of Mar-a-Lago warrant
    By ERIC TUCKER and MICHAEL BALSAMO
    Today

    WASHINGTON (AP) — Former President Donald Trump called late Thursday for the “immediate” release of the federal warrant the FBI used to search his Florida estate, hours after the Justice Department had asked a court to unseal the warrant, with Attorney General Merrick Garland citing the “substantial public interest in this matter.”

    In messages posted on his Truth Social platform, Trump wrote, “Not only will I not oppose the release of documents ... I am going a step further by ENCOURAGING the immediate release of those documents.” He continued to assail the FBI search of Mar-a-Lago as “unAmerican, unwarranted and unnecessary.”

    “Release the documents now!” he wrote.

    The Justice Department request earlier Thursday is striking because such documents traditionally remain sealed during a pending investigation. But the department appeared to recognize that its silence since the search had created a vacuum for bitter verbal attacks by Trump and his allies, and that the public was entitled to the FBI's side about what prompted Monday's action at the former president's home.

    “The public’s clear and powerful interest in understanding what occurred under these circumstances weighs heavily in favor of unsealing,” said a motion filed in federal court in Florida on Thursday.

    Should the warrant be released — the request is now with the judge — it could disclose unflattering information about the former president and about FBI scrutiny of his handling of sensitive government documents right as he prepares for another run for the White House. During his successful 2016 campaign, he pointed frequently to an FBI investigation into his Democratic opponent, Hillary Clinton, over whether she mishandled classified information.

    It's unclear at this point how much information would be included in the documents, if made public, or if they would encompass an FBI affidavit that would presumably lay out a detailed factual basis for the search. The department specifically requested the unsealing of the warrant as well as a property receipt listing the items that were seized, along with two unspecified attachments.

    To obtain a search warrant, federal authorities must prove to a judge that probable cause exists to believe that a crime was committed. Garland said he personally approved the warrant, a decision he said the department did not take lightly given that standard practice where possible is to select less intrusive tactics than a search of one's home.



    Post edited by mickeyrat on
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 14,398
    edited August 12
    I'm curious if his attorney will try to block it....he might be putting up a front

    or...he's calling for the release so that he can downplay what he did. His peeps will believe anything he says anyway.

    And let's keep in mind that he could have revealed all of this on his own days ago
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley #1, Wrigley #2, Boston #1, Boston #2
    2020: Oakland1, Oakland2:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland1, Oakland2, Nashville, Louisville 
  • jerparker20jerparker20 St. Paul, MNPosts: 2,259
    In a few years when the Saudis detonated their first nuclear test weapon we’ll know how they got it.
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 26,178
    I'm curious if his attorney will try to block it....he might be putting up a front

    or...he's calling for the release so that he can downplay what he did. His peeps will believe anything he says anyway.

    And let's keep in mind that he could have revealed all of this on his own days ago

    I assume the DOJ and the Court will require something more formal than a antisocial media declaration from fuckstick.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 1,960
    edited August 12
    Pages 3, 4, 8 & 11 of the link are relevant. Notice the word "trustworthy." Brandon did not extend the time-honored courtesy of allowing POOTWH access to classified information, briefings or anything to do with TOP Secret information after he left the Oval on 1/20/21 because he had proven himself to be "untrustworthy."

    https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80B01495R000200090013-0.pdf
    That sort of misses the nuance of this claim from the trump camp.


    1. Trump could have declassified all his documents before leaving office through a process that isn’t defined 

    2. Biden could have revoked trumps security clearance on day 1. Trump already declassified the documents he took making this moot for the purposes of these specific records.

    3. hypothetically Biden could have reclassified them that same way, and trump may or may not have been told. maybe it was part of the discussion the DOJ has with the Trump camp and he could be in possession of (re) classified documents

    all of this deals with presidents specifically.  There is an article on NBC about it too. 

     Apparently until someone updates the classification stamps no none else can touch them. Even if they are unclassified. That seems to put anyone other than a sitting president back into legal jeopardy if the stamp is above their security clearance 

    it’s a mess 





    1. Consider the source of the “claim.” A “claim “ does not make it so.

    2. Did POOTWH declassify the documents in question and if so, what process did he use, if any?

    3. Maybe that’s true but the Constitution clearly has language about swearing an oath, protecting the nation from enemies, foreign and domestic, and consequences for committing treason.

    4. It’s a mess because it’s POOTWH. Regardless, if he declassified them, he stole them and he jeopardized our national security. 3 and the National Archives law, which POOTWH renewed with stiffer penalties, kick in for the law and order crowd and the Constitutional purists amongst us.
    Point #2 specifically is what I’m talking about.  There isn’t a process.  Legal scholars generally agree.  A president can declassify on demand and don’t need to notify anyone.  That doesn’t mean anyone else can touch them though until a process to stamp them correctly happens 

    4.  I totally agree he took them and that’s a crime 

    even if he is charged, there is a lot to go through.  He’s got a solid claim on some of it, not because it’s right but because no one anticipated someone would do this. There isn’t a guardrail. Getting this done before 2024 may not happen.

    because this has never happened there are several things that could go to the Supreme Court. It’s going to take a long time 

    Some of these laws have no enforcement mechanism or penalty. IE the presidential records act.  So if you are accusing him of breaking one law but having to prosecute him under a more general mishandling of government documents law it gets really murky 

    Regarding point two, can a president declassify top secret nuclear documents? It seems like there must be a check on that, or what would stop a former president on his last day declassify essential secrets for a bribe?
    I posted some links up thread.  Apparently they can.  Having to ask permission implies the president is answerable to someone else.  In theory they can, it’s not been tested though 

    I also think maybe the DOJ just wants the records back and that is where it ends.  The fact stuff like the presidential records act has no penalties for non compliance and having to prosecute  him for something else may be impossible to win 

    the search and seizure may have been all there is.  Records returned, and they are done.  Probable cause a crime has been committed to justify a search warrant could be a presidential records act violation.  You can’t try that crime in court as there isn’t any penalty a jury can impose.

    did he mishandle government documents or presidential documents? Because they were presidential documents and there is a law specific to those types of documents can you even try him for other government document laws? Government documents and presidential documents may be both similar or the same or different.   the laws seem to carve them out as separate.  I have no idea.  
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • PJNBPJNB Posts: 11,338
    Pages 3, 4, 8 & 11 of the link are relevant. Notice the word "trustworthy." Brandon did not extend the time-honored courtesy of allowing POOTWH access to classified information, briefings or anything to do with TOP Secret information after he left the Oval on 1/20/21 because he had proven himself to be "untrustworthy."

    https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80B01495R000200090013-0.pdf
    That sort of misses the nuance of this claim from the trump camp.

    1. Trump could have declassified all his documents before leaving office through a process that isn’t defined 

    2. Biden could have revoked trumps security clearance on day 1. Trump already declassified the documents he took making this moot for the purposes of these specific records.

    3. hypothetically Biden could have reclassified them that same way, and trump may or may not have been told. maybe it was part of the discussion the DOJ has with the Trump camp and he could be in possession of (re) classified documents

    all of this deals with presidents specifically.  There is an article on NBC about it too. 

     Apparently until someone updates the classification stamps no none else can touch them. Even if they are unclassified. That seems to put anyone other than a sitting president back into legal jeopardy if the stamp is above their security clearance 

    it’s a mess 





    1. Consider the source of the “claim.” A “claim “ does not make it so.

    2. Did POOTWH declassify the documents in question and if so, what process did he use, if any?

    3. Maybe that’s true but the Constitution clearly has language about swearing an oath, protecting the nation from enemies, foreign and domestic, and consequences for committing treason.

    4. It’s a mess because it’s POOTWH. Regardless, if he declassified them, he stole them and he jeopardized our national security. 3 and the National Archives law, which POOTWH renewed with stiffer penalties, kick in for the law and order crowd and the Constitutional purists amongst us.
    Point #2 specifically is what I’m talking about.  There isn’t a process.  Legal scholars generally agree.  A president can declassify on demand and don’t need to notify anyone.  That doesn’t mean anyone else can touch them though until a process to stamp them correctly happens 

    4.  I totally agree he took them and that’s a crime 

    even if he is charged, there is a lot to go through.  He’s got a solid claim on some of it, not because it’s right but because no one anticipated someone would do this. There isn’t a guardrail. Getting this done before 2024 may not happen.

    because this has never happened there are several things that could go to the Supreme Court. It’s going to take a long time 

    Some of these laws have no enforcement mechanism or penalty. IE the presidential records act.  So if you are accusing him of breaking one law but having to prosecute him under a more general mishandling of government documents law it gets really murky 

    Regarding point two, can a president declassify top secret nuclear documents? It seems like there must be a check on that, or what would stop a former president on his last day declassify essential secrets for a bribe?
    I posted some links up thread.  Apparently they can.  Having to ask permission implies the president is answerable to someone else.  In theory they can, it’s not been tested though 

    I also think maybe the DOJ just wants the records back and that is where it ends.  The fact stuff like the presidential records act has no penalties for non compliance and having to prosecute  him for something else may be impossible to win 

    the search and seizure may have been all there is.  Records returned, and they are done.  Probable cause a crime has been committed to justify a search warrant could be a presidential records act violation.  You can’t try that crime in court as there isn’t any penalty a jury can impose.

    did he mishandle government documents or presidential documents? Because they were presidential documents and there is a law specific to those types of documents can you even try him for other government document laws? Government documents and presidential documents may be both similar or the same or different.   the laws seem to carve them out as separate.  I have no idea.  
    https://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/why-trump-can-t-declassify-documents-about-nuclear-weapons-145999941911
    PJ
    2013 Worcester 1 & 2
    2016 Quebec, Toronto 2, Fenway 1&2, Wrigley 2
    2018 Prague, Krakow, Berlin, Seattle 2, Wrigley 2, Fenway 1&2 
    2021 Encore 1&2
    2022 Fresno, Sacramento, Vegas, Vienna, Prague, Amsterdam 1, Amsterdam 2, Quebec City, Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto, New York City

    EV
    2017 Firenze, Taormina 1 & 2
  • ParksyParksy Posts: 1,553
    I'm curious if his attorney will try to block it....he might be putting up a front

    or...he's calling for the release so that he can downplay what he did. His peeps will believe anything he says anyway.

    And let's keep in mind that he could have revealed all of this on his own days ago

    Trump to his inner circle: Do not say anything. Only do what is legally required.

    Trump to the public and his cult:  I want this information out. I have nothing to hide. 

    (Later that day when an official statement from his lawyers says that they will fight in court to block the request) 

    Trump to the public and his cult: I personally want this information out, but at the advice of my legal team, we are going to block this request against the fraudulent and illegal FBI. 

    And the gaslighting of the American people by the ultimate con artist continues. 

    His shtick is as predictable as the sun rising and setting. 
    Toronto 2000
    Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
    Boston I&II 2004
    Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
    Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
    Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
    Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
    Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
    Toronto I&II 2011
    Buffalo 2013
    Toronto I&II 2016
    10C: 220xxx
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 1,960
    edited August 12
    PJNB said:
    Pages 3, 4, 8 & 11 of the link are relevant. Notice the word "trustworthy." Brandon did not extend the time-honored courtesy of allowing POOTWH access to classified information, briefings or anything to do with TOP Secret information after he left the Oval on 1/20/21 because he had proven himself to be "untrustworthy."

    https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80B01495R000200090013-0.pdf
    That sort of misses the nuance of this claim from the trump camp.

    1. Trump could have declassified all his documents before leaving office through a process that isn’t defined 

    2. Biden could have revoked trumps security clearance on day 1. Trump already declassified the documents he took making this moot for the purposes of these specific records.

    3. hypothetically Biden could have reclassified them that same way, and trump may or may not have been told. maybe it was part of the discussion the DOJ has with the Trump camp and he could be in possession of (re) classified documents

    all of this deals with presidents specifically.  There is an article on NBC about it too. 

     Apparently until someone updates the classification stamps no none else can touch them. Even if they are unclassified. That seems to put anyone other than a sitting president back into legal jeopardy if the stamp is above their security clearance 

    it’s a mess 





    1. Consider the source of the “claim.” A “claim “ does not make it so.

    2. Did POOTWH declassify the documents in question and if so, what process did he use, if any?

    3. Maybe that’s true but the Constitution clearly has language about swearing an oath, protecting the nation from enemies, foreign and domestic, and consequences for committing treason.

    4. It’s a mess because it’s POOTWH. Regardless, if he declassified them, he stole them and he jeopardized our national security. 3 and the National Archives law, which POOTWH renewed with stiffer penalties, kick in for the law and order crowd and the Constitutional purists amongst us.
    Point #2 specifically is what I’m talking about.  There isn’t a process.  Legal scholars generally agree.  A president can declassify on demand and don’t need to notify anyone.  That doesn’t mean anyone else can touch them though until a process to stamp them correctly happens 

    4.  I totally agree he took them and that’s a crime 

    even if he is charged, there is a lot to go through.  He’s got a solid claim on some of it, not because it’s right but because no one anticipated someone would do this. There isn’t a guardrail. Getting this done before 2024 may not happen.

    because this has never happened there are several things that could go to the Supreme Court. It’s going to take a long time 

    Some of these laws have no enforcement mechanism or penalty. IE the presidential records act.  So if you are accusing him of breaking one law but having to prosecute him under a more general mishandling of government documents law it gets really murky 

    Regarding point two, can a president declassify top secret nuclear documents? It seems like there must be a check on that, or what would stop a former president on his last day declassify essential secrets for a bribe?
    I posted some links up thread.  Apparently they can.  Having to ask permission implies the president is answerable to someone else.  In theory they can, it’s not been tested though 

    I also think maybe the DOJ just wants the records back and that is where it ends.  The fact stuff like the presidential records act has no penalties for non compliance and having to prosecute  him for something else may be impossible to win 

    the search and seizure may have been all there is.  Records returned, and they are done.  Probable cause a crime has been committed to justify a search warrant could be a presidential records act violation.  You can’t try that crime in court as there isn’t any penalty a jury can impose.

    did he mishandle government documents or presidential documents? Because they were presidential documents and there is a law specific to those types of documents can you even try him for other government document laws? Government documents and presidential documents may be both similar or the same or different.   the laws seem to carve them out as separate.  I have no idea.  
    https://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/why-trump-can-t-declassify-documents-about-nuclear-weapons-145999941911
    If that true and he had nuclear weapons data, his authority to declassify would go to the Supreme Court. 

    The unitary executive theory is a theory of United States constitutional law which holds that the President of the United States possesses the power to control the entire federal executive branch. The doctrine is rooted in Article Two of the United States Constitution, which vests "the executive power" of the United States in the President.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_executive_theory


    More than a few supreme court justices subscribe to this.  That one goes straight to the Supreme Court if the DOJ argues he doesn’t have that authority.  I still think the odds are in his favour that he can.  A law that hasn’t been challenged or tested isn’t something to have a lot of confidence in.  Do you even want to take it to court in the first place as do you want that legal precedent going forward if you lose? Or do you just want the documents back?


    Shouldn’t have the authority obviously but he probably does 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • PJNBPJNB Posts: 11,338
    The point is though if there are ways around it plenty of people would have to be involved and the FBI would be aware of the declassification. 

    They are looking for classified documents.
    PJ
    2013 Worcester 1 & 2
    2016 Quebec, Toronto 2, Fenway 1&2, Wrigley 2
    2018 Prague, Krakow, Berlin, Seattle 2, Wrigley 2, Fenway 1&2 
    2021 Encore 1&2
    2022 Fresno, Sacramento, Vegas, Vienna, Prague, Amsterdam 1, Amsterdam 2, Quebec City, Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto, New York City

    EV
    2017 Firenze, Taormina 1 & 2
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 1,960
    edited August 12
    PJNB said:
    The point is though if there are ways around it plenty of people would have to be involved and the FBI would be aware of the declassification. 

    They are looking for classified documents.
    The point is his staff said in may he did declassify them before leaving office. There isn’t any paperwork needed according to many. That’s kind of the problem.  It all goes back to presidents not following historical suggestions of what they should do and processes they should follow. You can call them classified or unclassified and it doesn’t matter. That’s up to the Supreme Court as to if they are or aren’t as it goes to authority/process to declassify 

    They are looking for documents that belong to the national archives for sure. Either way, they are theirs  

    as big of a POS trump is, If I was betting my money goes on no conviction and probably no charges filed as it’s not even clear to me what crime he committed that  both has a criminal enforcement component and will survive a Supreme Court challenge. You need not only a unanimous jury verdict but also 5 Supreme Court votes.
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • PJNBPJNB Posts: 11,338
    edited August 12
    PJNB said:
    The point is though if there are ways around it plenty of people would have to be involved and the FBI would be aware of the declassification. 

    They are looking for classified documents.
    The point is his staff said in may he did declassify them before leaving office. There isn’t any paperwork needed according to many. That’s kind of the problem.  It all goes back to presidents not following historical suggestions of what they should do and processes they should follow. You can call them classified or unclassified and it doesn’t matter. That’s up to the Supreme Court as to if they are or aren’t as it goes to authority/process to declassify 

    They are looking for documents that belong to the national archives for sure. Either way, they are theirs  

    as big of a POS trump is, If I was betting my money goes on no conviction and probably no charges filed as it’s not even clear to me what crime he committed that  both has a criminal enforcement component and will survive a Supreme Court challenge. You need not only a unanimous jury verdict but also 5 Supreme Court votes.
    The Atomic Energy Acts say he can not declassify though. It is very clear. 

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/08/trump-fbi-raid-classified-nuclear-documents/671119/

    Another is nuclear secrets. The Atomic Energy Acts of 1946 and 1954 produced an even stranger category of classified knowledge. Anything related to the production or use of nuclear weapons and nuclear power is inherently classified, and Trump could utter whatever words he pleased yet still be in possession of classified material. Where are our nuclear warheads? What tricks have we developed to make sure they work? This information is “born secret” no matter who produces it. The restrictions on documents of this type are incredibly tight. In the unlikely event that Trump came up with a new way to enrich uranium, and scribbled it on a cocktail napkin poolside at Mar-a-Lago early this year, that napkin would instantly have become a classified document subject to various controls and procedures, and possibly illegal for the former president to possess. Of course if he did so, no prosecutor would pursue him. A certain amount of leeway is crucial to the system.
    PJ
    2013 Worcester 1 & 2
    2016 Quebec, Toronto 2, Fenway 1&2, Wrigley 2
    2018 Prague, Krakow, Berlin, Seattle 2, Wrigley 2, Fenway 1&2 
    2021 Encore 1&2
    2022 Fresno, Sacramento, Vegas, Vienna, Prague, Amsterdam 1, Amsterdam 2, Quebec City, Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto, New York City

    EV
    2017 Firenze, Taormina 1 & 2
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 1,960
    edited August 12
    PJNB said:
    PJNB said:
    The point is though if there are ways around it plenty of people would have to be involved and the FBI would be aware of the declassification. 

    They are looking for classified documents.
    The point is his staff said in may he did declassify them before leaving office. There isn’t any paperwork needed according to many. That’s kind of the problem.  It all goes back to presidents not following historical suggestions of what they should do and processes they should follow. You can call them classified or unclassified and it doesn’t matter. That’s up to the Supreme Court as to if they are or aren’t as it goes to authority/process to declassify 

    They are looking for documents that belong to the national archives for sure. Either way, they are theirs  

    as big of a POS trump is, If I was betting my money goes on no conviction and probably no charges filed as it’s not even clear to me what crime he committed that  both has a criminal enforcement component and will survive a Supreme Court challenge. You need not only a unanimous jury verdict but also 5 Supreme Court votes.
    The Atomic Energy Acts say he can not declassify though. It is very clear. 
    Has it been challenged? Not that I’m aware of 

    a law is meaningless if a challenge to the presidential authority to declassify is brought. It’s an unconstitutional law in that case. It’s the legislative branch taking power from the executive branch. National security is primarily a function of the executive 

    Unitary executive theory rooted in the constitution says the president can, as he controls the entire executive branch.  
    It’s a legal theory many support including several on the supreme court 

    we are way too caught up in laws while ignoring the fact congress can pass a law that makes observing taco Tuesday mandatory.  Doesn’t mean it won’t get tossed at the Supreme Court.  It could be a law though.  Someone will need to get charged with ordering a pizza first though before bringing a case. 
    This is that 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 31,678
    PJNB said:
    PJNB said:
    The point is though if there are ways around it plenty of people would have to be involved and the FBI would be aware of the declassification. 

    They are looking for classified documents.
    The point is his staff said in may he did declassify them before leaving office. There isn’t any paperwork needed according to many. That’s kind of the problem.  It all goes back to presidents not following historical suggestions of what they should do and processes they should follow. You can call them classified or unclassified and it doesn’t matter. That’s up to the Supreme Court as to if they are or aren’t as it goes to authority/process to declassify 

    They are looking for documents that belong to the national archives for sure. Either way, they are theirs  

    as big of a POS trump is, If I was betting my money goes on no conviction and probably no charges filed as it’s not even clear to me what crime he committed that  both has a criminal enforcement component and will survive a Supreme Court challenge. You need not only a unanimous jury verdict but also 5 Supreme Court votes.
    The Atomic Energy Acts say he can not declassify though. It is very clear. 
    Has it been challenged? Not that I’m aware of 

    a law is meaningless if a challenge to the presidential authority to declassify is brought. It’s an unconstitutional law in that case. It’s the legislative branch taking power from the executive branch. National security is primarily a function of the executive 

    Unitary executive theory rooted in the constitution says the president can, as he controls the entire executive branch.  
    It’s a legal theory many support including several on the supreme court 

    we are way too caught up in laws while ignoring the fact congress can pass a law that makes observing taco Tuesday mandatory.  Doesn’t mean it won’t get tossed at the Supreme Court.  It could be a law though 
    We're, general we, are too caught up in giving POOTWH a pass with the "what if's," "maybes," "its never been challenged," etc., etc., etc. Hold the POS accountable and make him defend himself or sue or go to court to get what he believes is rightfully his. Stand up to the fucking guy and when he wins and the US becomes a fascist state with a string of authoritarians at the helm, we'll, well, some of us, will know who to blame and how we got where we are. Otherwise, we, general we, might as well just roll the fuck over. Let Clearance Thomas and Brett Kavanaught destroy democracy.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 7,247
    edited August 12
    PJNB said:
    PJNB said:
    The point is though if there are ways around it plenty of people would have to be involved and the FBI would be aware of the declassification. 

    They are looking for classified documents.
    The point is his staff said in may he did declassify them before leaving office. There isn’t any paperwork needed according to many. That’s kind of the problem.  It all goes back to presidents not following historical suggestions of what they should do and processes they should follow. You can call them classified or unclassified and it doesn’t matter. That’s up to the Supreme Court as to if they are or aren’t as it goes to authority/process to declassify 

    They are looking for documents that belong to the national archives for sure. Either way, they are theirs  

    as big of a POS trump is, If I was betting my money goes on no conviction and probably no charges filed as it’s not even clear to me what crime he committed that  both has a criminal enforcement component and will survive a Supreme Court challenge. You need not only a unanimous jury verdict but also 5 Supreme Court votes.
    The Atomic Energy Acts say he can not declassify though. It is very clear. 
    Has it been challenged? Not that I’m aware of 

    a law is meaningless if a challenge to the presidential authority to declassify is brought. It’s an unconstitutional law in that case. It’s the legislative branch taking power from the executive branch. National security is primarily a function of the executive 

    Unitary executive theory rooted in the constitution says the president can, as he controls the entire executive branch.  
    It’s a legal theory many support including several on the supreme court 

    we are way too caught up in laws while ignoring the fact congress can pass a law that makes observing taco Tuesday mandatory.  Doesn’t mean it won’t get tossed at the Supreme Court.  It could be a law though 
    We're, general we, are too caught up in giving POOTWH a pass with the "what if's," "maybes," "its never been challenged," etc., etc., etc. Hold the POS accountable and make him defend himself or sue or go to court to get what he believes is rightfully his. Stand up to the fucking guy and when he wins and the US becomes a fascist state with a string of authoritarians at the helm, we'll, well, some of us, will know who to blame and how we got where we are. Otherwise, we, general we, might as well just roll the fuck over. Let Clearance Thomas and Brett Kavanaught destroy democracy.

    You don't think letting him do whatever the fuck he wants out of fear for how his base might react is a good strategy? 
    Post edited by Merkin Baller on
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 31,678
    PJNB said:
    PJNB said:
    The point is though if there are ways around it plenty of people would have to be involved and the FBI would be aware of the declassification. 

    They are looking for classified documents.
    The point is his staff said in may he did declassify them before leaving office. There isn’t any paperwork needed according to many. That’s kind of the problem.  It all goes back to presidents not following historical suggestions of what they should do and processes they should follow. You can call them classified or unclassified and it doesn’t matter. That’s up to the Supreme Court as to if they are or aren’t as it goes to authority/process to declassify 

    They are looking for documents that belong to the national archives for sure. Either way, they are theirs  

    as big of a POS trump is, If I was betting my money goes on no conviction and probably no charges filed as it’s not even clear to me what crime he committed that  both has a criminal enforcement component and will survive a Supreme Court challenge. You need not only a unanimous jury verdict but also 5 Supreme Court votes.
    The Atomic Energy Acts say he can not declassify though. It is very clear. 
    Has it been challenged? Not that I’m aware of 

    a law is meaningless if a challenge to the presidential authority to declassify is brought. It’s an unconstitutional law in that case. It’s the legislative branch taking power from the executive branch. National security is primarily a function of the executive 

    Unitary executive theory rooted in the constitution says the president can, as he controls the entire executive branch.  
    It’s a legal theory many support including several on the supreme court 

    we are way too caught up in laws while ignoring the fact congress can pass a law that makes observing taco Tuesday mandatory.  Doesn’t mean it won’t get tossed at the Supreme Court.  It could be a law though 
    We're, general we, are too caught up in giving POOTWH a pass with the "what if's," "maybes," "its never been challenged," etc., etc., etc. Hold the POS accountable and make him defend himself or sue or go to court to get what he believes is rightfully his. Stand up to the fucking guy and when he wins and the US becomes a fascist state with a string of authoritarians at the helm, we'll, well, some of us, will know who to blame and how we got where we are. Otherwise, we, general we, might as well just roll the fuck over. Let Clearance Thomas and Brett Kavanaught destroy democracy.

    You don't think letting him do whatever the fuck he wants out of fear for how his base might react isn't a good strategy? 
    No, I do not. Imagine if you, general you, will if this were Hillary’s house in Chappaqua that was “raided,” or Obama’s house in Kenya. Both would have been nuked by now.

    Speaking of which, our intelligence director’s are on the record that “POOTWH had a ‘childlike’ fascination with ‘nuclear’.” Let that sink in (nuking hurricanes, could they use them in conflicts, etc.).
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 1,960
    edited August 12
    PJNB said:
    PJNB said:
    The point is though if there are ways around it plenty of people would have to be involved and the FBI would be aware of the declassification. 

    They are looking for classified documents.
    The point is his staff said in may he did declassify them before leaving office. There isn’t any paperwork needed according to many. That’s kind of the problem.  It all goes back to presidents not following historical suggestions of what they should do and processes they should follow. You can call them classified or unclassified and it doesn’t matter. That’s up to the Supreme Court as to if they are or aren’t as it goes to authority/process to declassify 

    They are looking for documents that belong to the national archives for sure. Either way, they are theirs  

    as big of a POS trump is, If I was betting my money goes on no conviction and probably no charges filed as it’s not even clear to me what crime he committed that  both has a criminal enforcement component and will survive a Supreme Court challenge. You need not only a unanimous jury verdict but also 5 Supreme Court votes.
    The Atomic Energy Acts say he can not declassify though. It is very clear. 
    Has it been challenged? Not that I’m aware of 

    a law is meaningless if a challenge to the presidential authority to declassify is brought. It’s an unconstitutional law in that case. It’s the legislative branch taking power from the executive branch. National security is primarily a function of the executive 

    Unitary executive theory rooted in the constitution says the president can, as he controls the entire executive branch.  
    It’s a legal theory many support including several on the supreme court 

    we are way too caught up in laws while ignoring the fact congress can pass a law that makes observing taco Tuesday mandatory.  Doesn’t mean it won’t get tossed at the Supreme Court.  It could be a law though 
    We're, general we, are too caught up in giving POOTWH a pass with the "what if's," "maybes," "its never been challenged," etc., etc., etc. Hold the POS accountable and make him defend himself or sue or go to court to get what he believes is rightfully his. Stand up to the fucking guy and when he wins and the US becomes a fascist state with a string of authoritarians at the helm, we'll, well, some of us, will know who to blame and how we got where we are. Otherwise, we, general we, might as well just roll the fuck over. Let Clearance Thomas and Brett Kavanaught destroy democracy.
    It’s not a what if.

    the standard shouldn’t be the atomic energy act,  it should be can the constraints the atomic energy act puts on a sitting president pass a Supreme Court challenge.  It’s clearly a separation of powers issue.  The ramifications of which will far outlast trump as legal precedent  

    that’s exactly where it’s going if you bring that case. The act says trump can’t declassify, but he did declassify.  His argument can be nothing except he has that authority 

    you cannot point to a law and then not ask where using that law will end up 

    if they feel they can win at the supreme court, great. I’m not sure the do or can though 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 31,678
    PJNB said:
    PJNB said:
    The point is though if there are ways around it plenty of people would have to be involved and the FBI would be aware of the declassification. 

    They are looking for classified documents.
    The point is his staff said in may he did declassify them before leaving office. There isn’t any paperwork needed according to many. That’s kind of the problem.  It all goes back to presidents not following historical suggestions of what they should do and processes they should follow. You can call them classified or unclassified and it doesn’t matter. That’s up to the Supreme Court as to if they are or aren’t as it goes to authority/process to declassify 

    They are looking for documents that belong to the national archives for sure. Either way, they are theirs  

    as big of a POS trump is, If I was betting my money goes on no conviction and probably no charges filed as it’s not even clear to me what crime he committed that  both has a criminal enforcement component and will survive a Supreme Court challenge. You need not only a unanimous jury verdict but also 5 Supreme Court votes.
    The Atomic Energy Acts say he can not declassify though. It is very clear. 
    Has it been challenged? Not that I’m aware of 

    a law is meaningless if a challenge to the presidential authority to declassify is brought. It’s an unconstitutional law in that case. It’s the legislative branch taking power from the executive branch. National security is primarily a function of the executive 

    Unitary executive theory rooted in the constitution says the president can, as he controls the entire executive branch.  
    It’s a legal theory many support including several on the supreme court 

    we are way too caught up in laws while ignoring the fact congress can pass a law that makes observing taco Tuesday mandatory.  Doesn’t mean it won’t get tossed at the Supreme Court.  It could be a law though 
    We're, general we, are too caught up in giving POOTWH a pass with the "what if's," "maybes," "its never been challenged," etc., etc., etc. Hold the POS accountable and make him defend himself or sue or go to court to get what he believes is rightfully his. Stand up to the fucking guy and when he wins and the US becomes a fascist state with a string of authoritarians at the helm, we'll, well, some of us, will know who to blame and how we got where we are. Otherwise, we, general we, might as well just roll the fuck over. Let Clearance Thomas and Brett Kavanaught destroy democracy.
    It’s not a what if.

    the standard shouldn’t be the atomic energy act,  it should be can the constraints the atomic energy act puts on a sitting president pass a Supreme Court challenge.  It’s clearly a separation of powers issue 

    that’s exactly where it’s going if you bring that case 

    you cannot point to a law and then not ask where using that law will end up 

    if they feel they can win at the supreme court, great. I’m not sure the do or can though 
    It’s a “what if,” until it’s decided by SCOTUS. Doing nothing is not an option. There is history and protocol, as well as past practice by all previous administrations since the birth of the bomb. Let the constitutional purists own it. Like the Founders envisioned nuclear weapons but okay. Let them be responsible for the ensuing shit show to follow if 87 years of precedence gets tossed aside because POOTWH decides to break another norm.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 25,961
    PJNB said:
    PJNB said:
    The point is though if there are ways around it plenty of people would have to be involved and the FBI would be aware of the declassification. 

    They are looking for classified documents.
    The point is his staff said in may he did declassify them before leaving office. There isn’t any paperwork needed according to many. That’s kind of the problem.  It all goes back to presidents not following historical suggestions of what they should do and processes they should follow. You can call them classified or unclassified and it doesn’t matter. That’s up to the Supreme Court as to if they are or aren’t as it goes to authority/process to declassify 

    They are looking for documents that belong to the national archives for sure. Either way, they are theirs  

    as big of a POS trump is, If I was betting my money goes on no conviction and probably no charges filed as it’s not even clear to me what crime he committed that  both has a criminal enforcement component and will survive a Supreme Court challenge. You need not only a unanimous jury verdict but also 5 Supreme Court votes.
    The Atomic Energy Acts say he can not declassify though. It is very clear. 
    Has it been challenged? Not that I’m aware of 

    a law is meaningless if a challenge to the presidential authority to declassify is brought. It’s an unconstitutional law in that case. It’s the legislative branch taking power from the executive branch. National security is primarily a function of the executive 

    Unitary executive theory rooted in the constitution says the president can, as he controls the entire executive branch.  
    It’s a legal theory many support including several on the supreme court 

    we are way too caught up in laws while ignoring the fact congress can pass a law that makes observing taco Tuesday mandatory.  Doesn’t mean it won’t get tossed at the Supreme Court.  It could be a law though 
    We're, general we, are too caught up in giving POOTWH a pass with the "what if's," "maybes," "its never been challenged," etc., etc., etc. Hold the POS accountable and make him defend himself or sue or go to court to get what he believes is rightfully his. Stand up to the fucking guy and when he wins and the US becomes a fascist state with a string of authoritarians at the helm, we'll, well, some of us, will know who to blame and how we got where we are. Otherwise, we, general we, might as well just roll the fuck over. Let Clearance Thomas and Brett Kavanaught destroy democracy.

    You don't think letting him do whatever the fuck he wants out of fear for how his base might react is a good strategy? 
    Sometimes that's what it sounds like around here. Everyone is afraid of them.  Fuck them.  
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 1,960
    edited August 12
    PJNB said:
    PJNB said:
    The point is though if there are ways around it plenty of people would have to be involved and the FBI would be aware of the declassification. 

    They are looking for classified documents.
    The point is his staff said in may he did declassify them before leaving office. There isn’t any paperwork needed according to many. That’s kind of the problem.  It all goes back to presidents not following historical suggestions of what they should do and processes they should follow. You can call them classified or unclassified and it doesn’t matter. That’s up to the Supreme Court as to if they are or aren’t as it goes to authority/process to declassify 

    They are looking for documents that belong to the national archives for sure. Either way, they are theirs  

    as big of a POS trump is, If I was betting my money goes on no conviction and probably no charges filed as it’s not even clear to me what crime he committed that  both has a criminal enforcement component and will survive a Supreme Court challenge. You need not only a unanimous jury verdict but also 5 Supreme Court votes.
    The Atomic Energy Acts say he can not declassify though. It is very clear. 
    Has it been challenged? Not that I’m aware of 

    a law is meaningless if a challenge to the presidential authority to declassify is brought. It’s an unconstitutional law in that case. It’s the legislative branch taking power from the executive branch. National security is primarily a function of the executive 

    Unitary executive theory rooted in the constitution says the president can, as he controls the entire executive branch.  
    It’s a legal theory many support including several on the supreme court 

    we are way too caught up in laws while ignoring the fact congress can pass a law that makes observing taco Tuesday mandatory.  Doesn’t mean it won’t get tossed at the Supreme Court.  It could be a law though 
    We're, general we, are too caught up in giving POOTWH a pass with the "what if's," "maybes," "its never been challenged," etc., etc., etc. Hold the POS accountable and make him defend himself or sue or go to court to get what he believes is rightfully his. Stand up to the fucking guy and when he wins and the US becomes a fascist state with a string of authoritarians at the helm, we'll, well, some of us, will know who to blame and how we got where we are. Otherwise, we, general we, might as well just roll the fuck over. Let Clearance Thomas and Brett Kavanaught destroy democracy.
    It’s not a what if.

    the standard shouldn’t be the atomic energy act,  it should be can the constraints the atomic energy act puts on a sitting president pass a Supreme Court challenge.  It’s clearly a separation of powers issue 

    that’s exactly where it’s going if you bring that case 

    you cannot point to a law and then not ask where using that law will end up 

    if they feel they can win at the supreme court, great. I’m not sure the do or can though 
    It’s a “what if,” until it’s decided by SCOTUS. Doing nothing is not an option. There is history and protocol, as well as past practice by all previous administrations since the birth of the bomb. Let the constitutional purists own it. Like the Founders envisioned nuclear weapons but okay. Let them be responsible for the ensuing shit show to follow if 87 years of precedence gets tossed aside because POOTWH decides to break another norm.
    All I’ve been saying since the beginning is they got the documents back.

     In whatever legal/political calculation they are now making getting the documents may have been enough.  None of the possible roads lead to a good outcome.  You are choosing between multiple terrible options all of which will have negative long term consequences 

    it’s entirely possible and more than a bit likely it ends here 

    to me all this “it’s a slam dunk case” stuff is far more speculative and “what if” because it puts it in a neat little box and skips over the profound and complex constitutional concerns that are real
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 25,961
    Here's your shooter.. prolific "Truth" poster, was in DC on Jan 6th, etc.  https://heavy.com/news/ricky-shiffer/


  • ikiTikiT USAPosts: 10,395
    Hey YO.

    I been down and out with the Covid since last FRI...did I miss anything important?
    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 7,247
    mrussel1 said:
    Here's your shooter.. prolific "Truth" poster, was in DC on Jan 6th, etc.  https://heavy.com/news/ricky-shiffer/



    Imagine a world where tfg, his acolytes & the right wing media machine and more specifically their lies were blamed for this violence & the deaths of people like Shiffer & Babbitt. 
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 31,678
    PJNB said:
    PJNB said:
    The point is though if there are ways around it plenty of people would have to be involved and the FBI would be aware of the declassification. 

    They are looking for classified documents.
    The point is his staff said in may he did declassify them before leaving office. There isn’t any paperwork needed according to many. That’s kind of the problem.  It all goes back to presidents not following historical suggestions of what they should do and processes they should follow. You can call them classified or unclassified and it doesn’t matter. That’s up to the Supreme Court as to if they are or aren’t as it goes to authority/process to declassify 

    They are looking for documents that belong to the national archives for sure. Either way, they are theirs  

    as big of a POS trump is, If I was betting my money goes on no conviction and probably no charges filed as it’s not even clear to me what crime he committed that  both has a criminal enforcement component and will survive a Supreme Court challenge. You need not only a unanimous jury verdict but also 5 Supreme Court votes.
    The Atomic Energy Acts say he can not declassify though. It is very clear. 
    Has it been challenged? Not that I’m aware of 

    a law is meaningless if a challenge to the presidential authority to declassify is brought. It’s an unconstitutional law in that case. It’s the legislative branch taking power from the executive branch. National security is primarily a function of the executive 

    Unitary executive theory rooted in the constitution says the president can, as he controls the entire executive branch.  
    It’s a legal theory many support including several on the supreme court 

    we are way too caught up in laws while ignoring the fact congress can pass a law that makes observing taco Tuesday mandatory.  Doesn’t mean it won’t get tossed at the Supreme Court.  It could be a law though 
    We're, general we, are too caught up in giving POOTWH a pass with the "what if's," "maybes," "its never been challenged," etc., etc., etc. Hold the POS accountable and make him defend himself or sue or go to court to get what he believes is rightfully his. Stand up to the fucking guy and when he wins and the US becomes a fascist state with a string of authoritarians at the helm, we'll, well, some of us, will know who to blame and how we got where we are. Otherwise, we, general we, might as well just roll the fuck over. Let Clearance Thomas and Brett Kavanaught destroy democracy.
    It’s not a what if.

    the standard shouldn’t be the atomic energy act,  it should be can the constraints the atomic energy act puts on a sitting president pass a Supreme Court challenge.  It’s clearly a separation of powers issue 

    that’s exactly where it’s going if you bring that case 

    you cannot point to a law and then not ask where using that law will end up 

    if they feel they can win at the supreme court, great. I’m not sure the do or can though 
    It’s a “what if,” until it’s decided by SCOTUS. Doing nothing is not an option. There is history and protocol, as well as past practice by all previous administrations since the birth of the bomb. Let the constitutional purists own it. Like the Founders envisioned nuclear weapons but okay. Let them be responsible for the ensuing shit show to follow if 87 years of precedence gets tossed aside because POOTWH decides to break another norm.
    All I’ve been saying since the beginning is they got the documents back.

     In whatever legal/political calculation they are now making getting the documents may have been enough.  None of the possible roads lead to a good outcome.  You are choosing between multiple terrible options all of which will have negative long term consequences 

    it’s entirely possible and more than a bit likely it ends here 

    to me all this “it’s a slam dunk case” stuff is far more speculative and “what if” because it puts it in a neat little box and skips over the profound and complex constitutional concerns that are real
    Agree to disagree in that "doing nothing," i.e. not having consequences for what are clear violations of SOPs, past practice and accepted norms is the worst possible outcome. The reason I say that is if POOTWH were to take this "right" or "privilege" to SCOTUS, that in and of itself is a process, a process by which arguments for and against are made, cooler heads advise on possible outcomes and what doors are opened and/or closed, all of which is shared with the American people, and ultimately, they have decision making in the airing of grievances and voting, as difficult as those may be (SCOTUS/Federal Bench nominees, etc.). Democracy is messy and if you want democracy to work, you've got to be willing to do the work and get dirty. To use a cute political term, "making sausage is messy."

    To "do nothing" is the worst possible outcome for what entails after that.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
Sign In or Register to comment.