Donald Trump

mrussel1

CM189191 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

I can only imagine the reaction if there were a picture of the Hope flag flying with the Black Panthers’ flag. Maybe putin on the ritz can photo shop a meme in the next couple of weeks? Or the RNC?

But there wasn’t, it was a confederate flag. Like del said, no surprises here. And depending on your interpretation of history a confederate flag is not racist. 

Sorry - confederate flag represents racism.  It did at the time.  And it still does today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tappan_Thompson

William Tappan Thompson supported the Confederacy during the American Civil War. In 1863, as the editor of the Morning News, he discussed a variant of a design that would ultimately become the Confederacy's second national flag, which would become known as the "Stainless Banner" or the "Jackson Flag" (for its first use as the flag that draped the coffin of Confederate Lt. Gen. Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson.)  In a series of editorials, Thompson wrote why he felt the design should be chosen to represent the Confederacy as "The White Man's Flag."

• "As a people, we are fighting to maintain the heaven ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race: a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause."

After the editorial was published, the editor of the Savannah Morning News received a dispatch announcing the senate had adopted the flag Thompson suggested.  

...I'd say that's pretty f'n clear...not sure how else you would interpret that...

Alexander Stephen's,  the vice president of the confederacy,  gave a speech at the beginning of the war that became known as the Cornerstone Speech. I encourage those of you who say... oh it was about states rights,  tariffs,  blah blah, to read the whole speech.  But here is the most instructive part..

The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."

Further...

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science.

mrussel1

Sorry for the long post,  but I find the argument that the primary reason wasn't slavery total rubbish and advanced by modern southern sympathizers. 

mcgruff10

CM189191 said:

mcgruff10 said:

cincybearcat said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea how you think that post might support your perspective McGruff. I think it more makes my argument. All it really says is that people were really slow on the uptake in terms of what that fucking flag really stood for.

Also, is the Confederacy in general supposed to be something people respect??? I don't see why it should be. I certainly don't.

I don't think is makes your argument because it is all about interpretation.  Who's to say that I am wrong and you are right, it is a symbol with different meanings.  Some people view Confederates as heroes and others traitors.  
But like I said, I am not going to debate history with you.  Our hiroshima/nagasaki opinions are waaaaay different.

But everyone knows they are losers

lol definitely.  Although I am a fan of Robert E. Lee.  

lol, that's great.  I remember my dad telling me when he went to college in the backwoods of florida in the 60's there was a lot of guys that would yell at his yankee ass (he's from New jersey) that "the south will rise again!"  his response was always,  "yeah, because shit floats!!" lol

mcgruff10

mrussel1 said:

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

Yeah, I'm a northerner, and have only ever associated the Confederate flag with treason, traitors, losers and racists. I'm sure people growing up in the south have a much different perspective. But for me, that's all I see.

Correct.  Some people in the south view it as apart of their history and tradition.  Although here in the north it is viewed differently (and I am seeing more and more confederate flags in my neck of the woods).
To add, the American Civil War is taught very different across the country.  I'd love to teach this era of history one day in Virginia or South Carolina; it could get real interesting lol.

In Virginia where I live, in the capital of the confederacy,  it isn't taught as the war of Northern Aggression.  In fact there's been substantial renaming of schools in the metro districts.  But whoever claims the primary reason for the South to secede was not about slavery,  has never actually read any contemporary literature from the South. 

So the war of northern aggression was taught only in the deep south? And the renaming of schools is going from confederate names to something else or the opposite?
Is monument row still up?  I haven't been there in awhile but it cracked me up how it went (and I don't remember the order proper) Lee, Stonewall Jackson, Jefferson Davis and then Arthur Ashe lol.  

mcgruff10

mrussel1 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

I can only imagine the reaction if there were a picture of the Hope flag flying with the Black Panthers’ flag. Maybe putin on the ritz can photo shop a meme in the next couple of weeks? Or the RNC?

But there wasn’t, it was a confederate flag. Like del said, no surprises here. And depending on your interpretation of history a confederate flag is not racist. 

You mean the attempt to revise the history of the confederacy,  that it wasn't about slavery.  Unfortunately for the apologists,  that is literally the easiest argument to counter. 

a lot of northern soldiers were fighting to restore the union, not to end slavery.  

mrussel1

mcgruff10 said:

mrussel1 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

I can only imagine the reaction if there were a picture of the Hope flag flying with the Black Panthers’ flag. Maybe putin on the ritz can photo shop a meme in the next couple of weeks? Or the RNC?

But there wasn’t, it was a confederate flag. Like del said, no surprises here. And depending on your interpretation of history a confederate flag is not racist. 

You mean the attempt to revise the history of the confederacy,  that it wasn't about slavery.  Unfortunately for the apologists,  that is literally the easiest argument to counter. 

a lot of northern soldiers were fighting to restore the union, not to end slavery.  

That's not what I said. I know the north fought to preserve the Union,  officially. I was very clear in the other post that I was speaking of the southern reason to secede. 

mrussel1

mcgruff10 said:

mrussel1 said:

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

Yeah, I'm a northerner, and have only ever associated the Confederate flag with treason, traitors, losers and racists. I'm sure people growing up in the south have a much different perspective. But for me, that's all I see.

Correct.  Some people in the south view it as apart of their history and tradition.  Although here in the north it is viewed differently (and I am seeing more and more confederate flags in my neck of the woods).
To add, the American Civil War is taught very different across the country.  I'd love to teach this era of history one day in Virginia or South Carolina; it could get real interesting lol.

In Virginia where I live, in the capital of the confederacy,  it isn't taught as the war of Northern Aggression.  In fact there's been substantial renaming of schools in the metro districts.  But whoever claims the primary reason for the South to secede was not about slavery,  has never actually read any contemporary literature from the South. 

So the war of northern aggression was taught only in the deep south? And the renaming of schools is going from confederate names to something else or the opposite?
Is monument row still up?  I haven't been there in awhile but it cracked me up how it went (and I don't remember the order proper) Lee, Stonewall Jackson, Jefferson Davis and then Arthur Ashe lol.  

I said they aren't teaching it from that perspective today. I've had three kids go through Henrico schools. The schools have been renamed to civil rights leaders and even Obama.  Byrd is even changing.  However out in mechanicville,  there's still Lee Davis high and Jackson middle.  

The monument issue is being worked through Richmond city counsel.  The city is very liberal and dominated by African Americans, so they are being given time to work through solutions.  And yes,  Ashe is the one at give and of Monument. 

mcgruff10

mrussel1 said:

mcgruff10 said:

mrussel1 said:

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

Yeah, I'm a northerner, and have only ever associated the Confederate flag with treason, traitors, losers and racists. I'm sure people growing up in the south have a much different perspective. But for me, that's all I see.

Correct.  Some people in the south view it as apart of their history and tradition.  Although here in the north it is viewed differently (and I am seeing more and more confederate flags in my neck of the woods).
To add, the American Civil War is taught very different across the country.  I'd love to teach this era of history one day in Virginia or South Carolina; it could get real interesting lol.

In Virginia where I live, in the capital of the confederacy,  it isn't taught as the war of Northern Aggression.  In fact there's been substantial renaming of schools in the metro districts.  But whoever claims the primary reason for the South to secede was not about slavery,  has never actually read any contemporary literature from the South. 

So the war of northern aggression was taught only in the deep south? And the renaming of schools is going from confederate names to something else or the opposite?
Is monument row still up?  I haven't been there in awhile but it cracked me up how it went (and I don't remember the order proper) Lee, Stonewall Jackson, Jefferson Davis and then Arthur Ashe lol.  

I said they aren't teaching it from that perspective today. I've had three kids go through Henrico schools. The schools have been renamed to civil rights leaders and even Obama.  Byrd is even changing.  However out in mechanicville,  there's still Lee Davis high and Jackson middle.  

The monument issue is being worked through Richmond city counsel.  The city is very liberal and dominated by African Americans, so they are being given time to work through solutions.  And yes,  Ashe is the one at give and of Monument. 

Oh I thought you meant only Virginia wasn't teaching that way; that is good that the rest of the south followed suit.  

gimmesometruth27

"I think [Robert E.] Lee should have been hanged. It was all the worse that he was a good man, had a good character, and acted conscientiously. It's always the good men who do the most harm."

Henry Adams

njnancy

Edited to admit I wasn't all caught up. Guess I'll let this flag debate run its course. 

- got stuck in the articles ranking NJ towns - dangerous, ghetto, safe,redneck, worst, etc. My town makes the top 100 twice - woohoo.

I remember the 2015 West New York shooting mentioned back before the flag stuff - two towns south of me. And there was a MS-13 murder 3 blocks from me - the slaughter type murder, several years ago.. There is a large Central American population integrated here along with Middle Eastern, Slavs. Italians and Irish, to name a few. I know that we have gangs to an extent - Latin Kings, Crips, Bloods, Hell's Angels - they have been moving drugs around forever. Proximity to NYC and every single major highway can do that. We also had 2 major Al Queda arrests in my town - bomb makers after 9/11. One was next to the candy store on my block. Life goes on. 

No Confederate flags around here. We are kind of 'almost NYC'. When I google anything - restaurant, doctor, store - I get all NY answers because it is less than 2 miles away. It gets annoying. Got off topic, sorry...

Donald Trump is a nationalist - just heard him say it. Fucking awesome. 

I find his declaration that we are going to pull out of the INF treaty of 1987 absolutely terrifying.

I grew up after the practice drills of hiding under your desk, but definitely Cold War and remember Gorbachev and the Berlin Wall (which I have  pieces of because my late sister was in Germany when it came down). I grew up having nightmares of nuclear war. Now Trump is so eager to play with nuclear weapons that he is going to pull out of a treaty which absolutely needs to be revisited but I thought he only completely destroyed Obama agreements. Now he's messing with a major Reagan treaty. Gorbachev reportedly said that this action 'is not the work of a great mind'. Got to agree with him there.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/world/europe/mikhail-gorbachev-trump-russia.html

He is stating so many untruths right now to stir up fear before the mid terms and he has said he does it because 'it works'. I hope this is one of his hot air statements because if he does this, it scares the hell out of me. 

Bentleyspop

How about asking any African-American what the Confederate flag represents 

Halifax2TheMax

“It’s the worst coverup ever.” Not that a US resident journalist was murdered but that the Saudis sucked at the cover up. Let that sink in. Gee, think Team Trump Treason has experience with coverups?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

Yeah, I'm a northerner, and have only ever associated the Confederate flag with treason, traitors, losers and racists. I'm sure people growing up in the south have a much different perspective. But for me, that's all I see.

Correct.  Some people in the south view it as apart of their history and tradition.  Although here in the north it is viewed differently (and I am seeing more and more confederate flags in my neck of the woods).
To add, the American Civil War is taught very different across the country.  I'd love to teach this era of history one day in Virginia or South Carolina; it could get real interesting lol.

And in Germany... the people intensely want to separate themselves from the Nazi flag and all it represented in that shameful era. 

In my opinion, if people in the south still embrace that flag... they still embrace the values associated with it.

josevolution

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/putin-us-dominance-ending-mistakes-typical-empire/story?id=58611354
Putin claims this and Bolton is there to shake his hand lol America is officially Russia’s bitch ! 

njnancy

josevolution said:

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/putin-us-dominance-ending-mistakes-typical-empire/story?id=58611354
Putin claims this and Bolton is there to shake his hand lol America is officially Russia’s bitch ! 

Trump is his bitch - we're just along for the awful ride. 

And I don't buy the Southern pride argument. The Confederate flag is a racist/redneck symbol and those who try to say otherwise are like the people who claimed they hated Obama, but not because he was black.

oftenreading

mrussel1 said:

Sorry for the long post,  but I find the argument that the primary reason wasn't slavery total rubbish and advanced by modern southern sympathizers. 

I agree. I am amazed that people still try to make these claims. If figure if you're in support of the confederate flag and the "culture" it represents, just own it, rather than trying to claim it isn't about slavery and racism. 

If the confederacy was not about the position of black people in the South, why did Georgia change their flag in 1956 to include the confederate  battle emblem, as a response to the Brown v. Board of Education decision to end segregation?

ikiT

I'm not on twitter.  Those pictures are from instagram.  Concise posts that move the conversation along are bad now?  There's MAD BLAH BLAH BLAH everywhere you turn.   I'm trying to help you as quickly as possible.

The confederate flag is as overtly RACIST as you get even before this shitstorm.  Any one who tells you different, or is flying one proudly outside their house or off the back of their pickup, is a fucking racist.

I have a nephew who grew up in VA, just went off to college this fall.  He tried to float that Heritage not Hate nonsense at me one day, and I told him he was LIED to.  The thing about the US version of institutional systemic racism is it doesn't take days off.  It's always there.  

Now it's fucking overt and normalized with Trump-ler "in charge".

josevolution

Tiki said:

I'm not on twitter.  Those pictures are from instagram.  Concise posts that move the conversation along are bad now?  There's MAD BLAH BLAH BLAH everywhere you turn.   I'm trying to help you as quickly as possible.

The confederate flag is as overtly RACIST as you get even before this shitstorm.  Any one who tells you different, or is flying one proudly outside their house or off the back of their pickup, is a fucking racist.


Carry on.

Keep doing what your doing and yes that flag is definitely a racist symbol !

tbergs

Tiki said:

I'm not on twitter.  Those pictures are from instagram.  Concise posts that move the conversation along are bad now?  There's MAD BLAH BLAH BLAH everywhere you turn.   I'm trying to help you as quickly as possible.

The confederate flag is as overtly RACIST as you get even before this shitstorm.  Any one who tells you different, or is flying one proudly outside their house or off the back of their pickup, is a fucking racist.

I have a nephew who grew up in VA, just went off to college this fall.  He tried to float that Heritage not Hate nonsense at me one day, and I told him he was LIED to.  The thing about the US version of institutional systemic racism is it doesn't take days off.  It's always there.  

Now it's fucking overt and normalized with Trump-ler "in charge".

I go back and forth on this issue. For me, the flag is an obvious sign of racism and oppression, but I'm not from the south and I have read the history on it's origins so it's a no brainer, but I wonder how many ignorant people who were told by their parents or some other source that they shouldn't be ashamed by their pride in that flag there are. I guess if you don't care to learn the history or consider other perceptions, then maybe you are a racist, just not an obviously overt one. 

Halifax2TheMax

tbergs said:

Tiki said:

I'm not on twitter.  Those pictures are from instagram.  Concise posts that move the conversation along are bad now?  There's MAD BLAH BLAH BLAH everywhere you turn.   I'm trying to help you as quickly as possible.

The confederate flag is as overtly RACIST as you get even before this shitstorm.  Any one who tells you different, or is flying one proudly outside their house or off the back of their pickup, is a fucking racist.

I have a nephew who grew up in VA, just went off to college this fall.  He tried to float that Heritage not Hate nonsense at me one day, and I told him he was LIED to.  The thing about the US version of institutional systemic racism is it doesn't take days off.  It's always there.  

Now it's fucking overt and normalized with Trump-ler "in charge".

I go back and forth on this issue. For me, the flag is an obvious sign of racism and oppression, but I'm not from the south and I have read the history on it's origins so it's a no brainer, but I wonder how many ignorant people who were told by their parents or some other source that they shouldn't be ashamed by their pride in that flag there are. I guess if you don't care to learn the history or consider other perceptions, then maybe you are a racist, just not an obviously overt one. 

No one is born a racist. So there’s that.