Donald Trump

cincybearcat

njnancy said:

OK - confederate flags - I got a bunch of pages to read to see how we got to this. 

No need. Tiki just posting what he sees on Twitter.

i hate that damn flag.

mcgruff10

CM189191 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

I can only imagine the reaction if there were a picture of the Hope flag flying with the Black Panthers’ flag. Maybe putin on the ritz can photo shop a meme in the next couple of weeks? Or the RNC?

But there wasn’t, it was a confederate flag. Like del said, no surprises here. And depending on your interpretation of history a confederate flag is not racist. 

Sorry - confederate flag represents racism.  It did at the time.  And it still does today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tappan_Thompson

William Tappan Thompson supported the Confederacy during the American Civil War. In 1863, as the editor of the Morning News, he discussed a variant of a design that would ultimately become the Confederacy's second national flag, which would become known as the "Stainless Banner" or the "Jackson Flag" (for its first use as the flag that draped the coffin of Confederate Lt. Gen. Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson.)  In a series of editorials, Thompson wrote why he felt the design should be chosen to represent the Confederacy as "The White Man's Flag."

• "As a people, we are fighting to maintain the heaven ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race: a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause."

After the editorial was published, the editor of the Savannah Morning News received a dispatch announcing the senate had adopted the flag Thompson suggested.  

...I'd say that's pretty f'n clear...not sure how else you would interpret that...

You do realize that what you are describing is for the second confederate flag but the flag that is the bone of contention is the Army of Northern Virginia Battle Flag.  (I'm just saying.)  https://www.cnn.com/2015/06/24/us/confederate-flag-myths-facts/index.html or https://www.us-civilwar.com/history-confederate-flag/

Stainless Banner: The Second Confederate Flag (this is not the flag that is being flown today)

Taking inspiration from the U.S. flag proved to be a costly mistake. The confederate States of America adopted a different design in May 1863. Known as the Stainless Banner, the second flag was designed to represent the “supremacy of the white man.” It comprised a square battle flag superimposed on the top left corner of a rectangular white field.

Despite its distinction, the new flag design faced a unique set of problems. The flag hung limp in windless conditions, obscuring the canton and leaving only the white part visible. In a limp position, the flag appeared all white, symbolizing the universal sign of truce.

And getting back to what I said about your interpretation of history:

Herein lies the problem with symbols: They have no inherent meanings; they have only whatever meanings people choose to read into them, and different people can associate very different meanings with the same symbol. The Confederate battle flag is now regarded in many different ways — as a symbol of slavery, as a rallying banner for white supremacists, as a quaint historical artifact, as a memorial to those who fought gallantly and bravely (even if it was in the service of cause no longer considered virtuous), as a general emblem of rebellion against authority, as a benign display of regional pride, or even as a fond reminder of two “good ol’ boys” who were “never meanin’ no harm.”

It is true that for several decades after the Civil War, the Confederate battle flag was not widely perceived as a negative symbol. Its use was largely limited to historical ceremonies associated with veterans’ events and war memorials; the flag did not become the symbol most prominently associated with the Confederacy until several decades after the Civil War ended, and it was not widely perceived as a politically polarizing symbol until it was appropriated by segregationist politicians and groups in the middle of the twentieth century.

However, the fact remains that the Confederate battle flag has long since become the pre-eminent symbol of the Confederacy and what it stood for, and across the span of several decades it has been co-opted by segregationist and white supremacist groups such as the Dixiecrats, the KKK, and the Aryan Nation. Certainly one can be a racist or a white supremacist without associating himself with “Southern Pride” or a Confederate battle flag, but for better or worse, no one group is any more “authorized” to use the Confederate battle flag as their symbol than another: the Confederate government and its military forces ceased to exist 150 years ago and therefore have no say or control over the usage of the Southern Cross.

The Sons of Confederate Veterans may sincerely object to the Confederate battle flag’s use by Neo-Nazis, skinheads, and other extremist groups, and perhaps some of the men who fought and died for the Confederacy would as well if they were alive today. But just as with the swastika, it’s likely to be a very, very long time before that symbol can be reclaimed and regarded in anything approaching a neutral manner, and probably not until the social issues underlying the public perception of that symbol have been more thoroughly canvassed.

PJ_Soul

I have no idea how you think that post might support your perspective McGruff. I think it more makes my argument. All it really says is that people were really slow on the uptake in terms of what that fucking flag really stood for.

Also, is the Confederacy in general supposed to be something people respect??? I don't see why it should be. I certainly don't.

mcgruff10

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/8-things-didnt-know-confederate-flag

2. The flag is divisive, but most Americans may not care.

Roughly one in ten Americans feels positively when they see the Confederate flag displayed, according to a 2011 Pew Research Center poll. The same study showed that 30 percent of Americans reported a negative reaction to seeing the flag on display.

But the majority, 58 percent, reported feeling neither positive nor negative. The poll also showed that African-Americans, Democrats and the highly educated were more likely to perceive the flag negatively.

mcgruff10

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea how you think that post might support your perspective McGruff. I think it more makes my argument. All it really says is that people were really slow on the uptake in terms of what that fucking flag really stood for.

Also, is the Confederacy in general supposed to be something people respect??? I don't see why it should be. I certainly don't.

I don't think is makes your argument because it is all about interpretation.  Who's to say that I am wrong and you are right, it is a symbol with different meanings.  Some people view Confederates as heroes and others traitors.  
But like I said, I am not going to debate history with you.  Our hiroshima/nagasaki opinions are waaaaay different.
plus I was pointing out that the information of the flag was wrong...that person was talking about the wrong flag.

jeffbr

Yeah, I'm a northerner, and have only ever associated the Confederate flag with treason, traitors, losers and racists. I'm sure people growing up in the south have a much different perspective. But for me, that's all I see.

tbergs

mcgruff10 said:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/8-things-didnt-know-confederate-flag

2. The flag is divisive, but most Americans may not care.

Roughly one in ten Americans feels positively when they see the Confederate flag displayed, according to a 2011 Pew Research Center poll. The same study showed that 30 percent of Americans reported a negative reaction to seeing the flag on display.

But the majority, 58 percent, reported feeling neither positive nor negative. The poll also showed that African-Americans, Democrats and the highly educated were more likely to perceive the flag negatively.

All of that seems like common sense. As a kid growing up in a white farming community I never saw the confederate flag except for on TV and mostly on the Dukes of Hazzard, but I never had a negative perception of it until I was older and understood it's history. In today's modern age, there should be almost zero support or impartial feelings about that flag unless you just don't care.

cincybearcat

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea how you think that post might support your perspective McGruff. I think it more makes my argument. All it really says is that people were really slow on the uptake in terms of what that fucking flag really stood for.

Also, is the Confederacy in general supposed to be something people respect??? I don't see why it should be. I certainly don't.

I don't think is makes your argument because it is all about interpretation.  Who's to say that I am wrong and you are right, it is a symbol with different meanings.  Some people view Confederates as heroes and others traitors.  
But like I said, I am not going to debate history with you.  Our hiroshima/nagasaki opinions are waaaaay different.

But everyone knows they are losers

mcgruff10

jeffbr said:

Yeah, I'm a northerner, and have only ever associated the Confederate flag with treason, traitors, losers and racists. I'm sure people growing up in the south have a much different perspective. But for me, that's all I see.

Correct.  Some people in the south view it as apart of their history and tradition.  Although here in the north it is viewed differently (and I am seeing more and more confederate flags in my neck of the woods).
To add, the American Civil War is taught very different across the country.  I'd love to teach this era of history one day in Virginia or South Carolina; it could get real interesting lol.

mcgruff10

cincybearcat said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea how you think that post might support your perspective McGruff. I think it more makes my argument. All it really says is that people were really slow on the uptake in terms of what that fucking flag really stood for.

Also, is the Confederacy in general supposed to be something people respect??? I don't see why it should be. I certainly don't.

I don't think is makes your argument because it is all about interpretation.  Who's to say that I am wrong and you are right, it is a symbol with different meanings.  Some people view Confederates as heroes and others traitors.  
But like I said, I am not going to debate history with you.  Our hiroshima/nagasaki opinions are waaaaay different.

But everyone knows they are losers

lol definitely.  Although I am a fan of Robert E. Lee.  

PJ_Soul

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea how you think that post might support your perspective McGruff. I think it more makes my argument. All it really says is that people were really slow on the uptake in terms of what that fucking flag really stood for.

Also, is the Confederacy in general supposed to be something people respect??? I don't see why it should be. I certainly don't.

I don't think is makes your argument because it is all about interpretation.  Who's to say that I am wrong and you are right, it is a symbol with different meanings.  Some people view Confederates as heroes and others traitors.  
But like I said, I am not going to debate history with you.  Our hiroshima/nagasaki opinions are waaaaay different.
plus I was pointing out that the information of the flag was wrong...that person was talking about the wrong flag.

That last sentence of your quote was everything man. It all boils down to that, really. Although I would strongly disagree with the idea that it should ever be "reclaimed" because there was a racist connection with that flag since its inception, and, ultimately, what I view as a racist (and inhuman) motivation behind the Confederacy in general.

mcgruff10

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea how you think that post might support your perspective McGruff. I think it more makes my argument. All it really says is that people were really slow on the uptake in terms of what that fucking flag really stood for.

Also, is the Confederacy in general supposed to be something people respect??? I don't see why it should be. I certainly don't.

I don't think is makes your argument because it is all about interpretation.  Who's to say that I am wrong and you are right, it is a symbol with different meanings.  Some people view Confederates as heroes and others traitors.  
But like I said, I am not going to debate history with you.  Our hiroshima/nagasaki opinions are waaaaay different.
plus I was pointing out that the information of the flag was wrong...that person was talking about the wrong flag.

That last sentence of your quote was everything man. It all boils down to that, really. Although I would strongly disagree with the idea that it should ever be "reclaimed" because there was a racist connection with that flag since its inception, and, ultimately, what I view as a racist (and inhuman) motivation behind the Confederacy in general.

It was a law abiding battle flag until it wasn’t. 

PJ_Soul

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea how you think that post might support your perspective McGruff. I think it more makes my argument. All it really says is that people were really slow on the uptake in terms of what that fucking flag really stood for.

Also, is the Confederacy in general supposed to be something people respect??? I don't see why it should be. I certainly don't.

I don't think is makes your argument because it is all about interpretation.  Who's to say that I am wrong and you are right, it is a symbol with different meanings.  Some people view Confederates as heroes and others traitors.  
But like I said, I am not going to debate history with you.  Our hiroshima/nagasaki opinions are waaaaay different.
plus I was pointing out that the information of the flag was wrong...that person was talking about the wrong flag.

That last sentence of your quote was everything man. It all boils down to that, really. Although I would strongly disagree with the idea that it should ever be "reclaimed" because there was a racist connection with that flag since its inception, and, ultimately, what I view as a racist (and inhuman) motivation behind the Confederacy in general.

It was a law abiding battle flag until it wasn’t. 

Nobody said anything about law abiding... And that flag is still legal. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. It changes nothing when it comes to what the Confederacy was all about.

mcgruff10

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea how you think that post might support your perspective McGruff. I think it more makes my argument. All it really says is that people were really slow on the uptake in terms of what that fucking flag really stood for.

Also, is the Confederacy in general supposed to be something people respect??? I don't see why it should be. I certainly don't.

I don't think is makes your argument because it is all about interpretation.  Who's to say that I am wrong and you are right, it is a symbol with different meanings.  Some people view Confederates as heroes and others traitors.  
But like I said, I am not going to debate history with you.  Our hiroshima/nagasaki opinions are waaaaay different.
plus I was pointing out that the information of the flag was wrong...that person was talking about the wrong flag.

That last sentence of your quote was everything man. It all boils down to that, really. Although I would strongly disagree with the idea that it should ever be "reclaimed" because there was a racist connection with that flag since its inception, and, ultimately, what I view as a racist (and inhuman) motivation behind the Confederacy in general.

It was a law abiding battle flag until it wasn’t. 

Nobody said anything about law abiding... And that flag is still legal. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. It changes nothing when it comes to what the Confederacy was all about.

It was a joke silly. 

PJ_Soul

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea how you think that post might support your perspective McGruff. I think it more makes my argument. All it really says is that people were really slow on the uptake in terms of what that fucking flag really stood for.

Also, is the Confederacy in general supposed to be something people respect??? I don't see why it should be. I certainly don't.

I don't think is makes your argument because it is all about interpretation.  Who's to say that I am wrong and you are right, it is a symbol with different meanings.  Some people view Confederates as heroes and others traitors.  
But like I said, I am not going to debate history with you.  Our hiroshima/nagasaki opinions are waaaaay different.
plus I was pointing out that the information of the flag was wrong...that person was talking about the wrong flag.

That last sentence of your quote was everything man. It all boils down to that, really. Although I would strongly disagree with the idea that it should ever be "reclaimed" because there was a racist connection with that flag since its inception, and, ultimately, what I view as a racist (and inhuman) motivation behind the Confederacy in general.

It was a law abiding battle flag until it wasn’t. 

Nobody said anything about law abiding... And that flag is still legal. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. It changes nothing when it comes to what the Confederacy was all about.

It was a joke silly. 

That one is still going over my head!

mcgruff10

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea how you think that post might support your perspective McGruff. I think it more makes my argument. All it really says is that people were really slow on the uptake in terms of what that fucking flag really stood for.

Also, is the Confederacy in general supposed to be something people respect??? I don't see why it should be. I certainly don't.

I don't think is makes your argument because it is all about interpretation.  Who's to say that I am wrong and you are right, it is a symbol with different meanings.  Some people view Confederates as heroes and others traitors.  
But like I said, I am not going to debate history with you.  Our hiroshima/nagasaki opinions are waaaaay different.
plus I was pointing out that the information of the flag was wrong...that person was talking about the wrong flag.

That last sentence of your quote was everything man. It all boils down to that, really. Although I would strongly disagree with the idea that it should ever be "reclaimed" because there was a racist connection with that flag since its inception, and, ultimately, what I view as a racist (and inhuman) motivation behind the Confederacy in general.

It was a law abiding battle flag until it wasn’t. 

Nobody said anything about law abiding... And that flag is still legal. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. It changes nothing when it comes to what the Confederacy was all about.

It was a joke silly. 

That one is still going over my head!

See the Gun violence tread. All good, my bad on the vague joke. 

mrussel1

mcgruff10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

I can only imagine the reaction if there were a picture of the Hope flag flying with the Black Panthers’ flag. Maybe putin on the ritz can photo shop a meme in the next couple of weeks? Or the RNC?

But there wasn’t, it was a confederate flag. Like del said, no surprises here. And depending on your interpretation of history a confederate flag is not racist. 

You mean the attempt to revise the history of the confederacy,  that it wasn't about slavery.  Unfortunately for the apologists,  that is literally the easiest argument to counter. 

mrussel1

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

Yeah, I'm a northerner, and have only ever associated the Confederate flag with treason, traitors, losers and racists. I'm sure people growing up in the south have a much different perspective. But for me, that's all I see.

Correct.  Some people in the south view it as apart of their history and tradition.  Although here in the north it is viewed differently (and I am seeing more and more confederate flags in my neck of the woods).
To add, the American Civil War is taught very different across the country.  I'd love to teach this era of history one day in Virginia or South Carolina; it could get real interesting lol.

In Virginia where I live, in the capital of the confederacy,  it isn't taught as the war of Northern Aggression.  In fact there's been substantial renaming of schools in the metro districts.  But whoever claims the primary reason for the South to secede was not about slavery,  has never actually read any contemporary literature from the South. 

CM189191

mcgruff10 said:

cincybearcat said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea how you think that post might support your perspective McGruff. I think it more makes my argument. All it really says is that people were really slow on the uptake in terms of what that fucking flag really stood for.

Also, is the Confederacy in general supposed to be something people respect??? I don't see why it should be. I certainly don't.

I don't think is makes your argument because it is all about interpretation.  Who's to say that I am wrong and you are right, it is a symbol with different meanings.  Some people view Confederates as heroes and others traitors.  
But like I said, I am not going to debate history with you.  Our hiroshima/nagasaki opinions are waaaaay different.

But everyone knows they are losers

lol definitely.  Although I am a fan of Robert E. Lee.  

cincybearcat

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea how you think that post might support your perspective McGruff. I think it more makes my argument. All it really says is that people were really slow on the uptake in terms of what that fucking flag really stood for.

Also, is the Confederacy in general supposed to be something people respect??? I don't see why it should be. I certainly don't.

I don't think is makes your argument because it is all about interpretation.  Who's to say that I am wrong and you are right, it is a symbol with different meanings.  Some people view Confederates as heroes and others traitors.  
But like I said, I am not going to debate history with you.  Our hiroshima/nagasaki opinions are waaaaay different.
plus I was pointing out that the information of the flag was wrong...that person was talking about the wrong flag.

That last sentence of your quote was everything man. It all boils down to that, really. Although I would strongly disagree with the idea that it should ever be "reclaimed" because there was a racist connection with that flag since its inception, and, ultimately, what I view as a racist (and inhuman) motivation behind the Confederacy in general.

It was a law abiding battle flag until it wasn’t. 

Nobody said anything about law abiding... And that flag is still legal. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. It changes nothing when it comes to what the Confederacy was all about.

It was a joke silly. 

That one is still going over my head!

See the Gun violence tread. All good, my bad on the vague joke. 

I got it