President Barack Obama visited with King Salman bin Abdulaziz in the Saudi Arabian capital of Riyadh in January 2015. (Photo: Reuters/J. Bourg)
Much has been made of President Obama's lengthy interview with Jeffrey Goldberg of The Atlantic, in which he argues that many American allies have become "free-riders" — allies content to receive military, strategic, and financial assistance while offering little or nothing in return.
One of the countries he mentioned by name was Saudi Arabia, a nation that has been a close ally of the United States for many decades. But during President Obama's tenure, the relationship has (at least on the surface) experienced somewhat of a dip as Iran — Saudi Arabia's main rival — negotiated with the United States and several other nations with the goal of reducing the country's nuclear capacities.
Such a dip, while a negative for American hawks, would presumably be celebrated by many. For years human rights groups have argued that the United States should use its leverage to put pressure on the Saudi regime, if not to cut ties with the kingdom totally, as it is one of the most heinous human rights violators in the world. Indeed, as Kamel Daoud has argued, Saudi Arabia is "an ISIS that has made it."
Many have interpreted President Obama's rhetorical jabs at the Saudi kingdom as a sign that substantive change is occurring, change that will be beneficial for Saudis and for the region. This, unfortunately, could not be further from the truth. While President Obama's comments have irked Saudi officials, Congress and the president himself have provided ample reassurance to the Saudi ruling elite by way of historic arms deals and strategic support.
The United States, because of its close relationship with the kingdom, has been complicit in the war crimes it has committed in its assault on Yemen, and American politicians have been far too willing to turn a blind eye to blatant human rights abuses that they would righteously condemn if committed by official enemies. And President Obama, despite his rhetoric, has throughout his administration continued to approve historic arms deals to the kingdom, deals that have included so-called "smart bombs," aircraft, and other advanced weaponry.
The New York Timessummarizes: "The Saudi military is flying jets and dropping bombs it bought from the United States — part of the billions of dollars in arms deals that have been negotiated with Saudi Arabia and other Persian Gulf nations during the Obama administration."
Judging by the above, there seems to be little evidence to support the notion that the president is ushering in a new era of U.S.-Saudi relations, an era in which Saudi Arabia is, for once, held to account for its actions. In fact, the evidence points in precisely the opposite direction.
As the New York Times reported on Saturday, Saudi officials are infuriated by a bill put forward by the Senate that "would allow the Saudi government to be held responsible in American courts for any role in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks." To demonstrate its anger, the regime has resorted to threats: If the bill is passed, Saudi officials say, they will "sell off hundreds of billions of dollars' worth of American assets."
Criticism of the bill has come from another source, as well: the Obama administration. "The Obama administration has lobbied Congress to block the bill’s passage," the Times reports, arguing that "the legislation would put Americans at legal risk overseas."
In his interview with the president, Jeffrey Goldberg notes that, "Obama’s patience with Saudi Arabia has always been limited." Well, approving historic arms deals and shielding the kingdom from calls for accountability is a bizarre way to demonstrate waning patience.
Such an embrace of one of the most repressive regimes in the world by the Obama administration — an embrace that walks the line drawn by many previous presidents — demonstrates the near truism of foreign relations expounded by Noam Chomsky and others: "The United States supports democracy if and only if it conforms to U.S. strategic and economic objectives."
The same seems to be true with human rights and, indeed, the war against terrorism, itself. Saudi Arabia, as many have observed, is a hub for the spread of extremist ideologies like those currently motivating the self-proclaimed Islamic State.
The West's continued coddling of Saudi Arabia represents a tacit acceptance of the tactics the kingdom uses both to suppress its own population and to spread violence beyond its borders. Is this the change we are supposed to believe in?
Seriously. WTF? Let's debate something that happened a decade ago instead of being worried about what is happening RIGHT NOW. What kind of sense does that make? None.
I agree. It's clearly a defense mechanism that allows people to look in the past because they want to turn a blind eye to what is occurring right now. I still can't comprehend how anyone can support Trump. He is, BY FAR, one of the worst (if not the worst) presidents in history.
I'm sure that's true for some, but my2hands isn't a trump supporter. he is merely pointing out that history doesn't start with Jan 20/17. while trump is an awful person and president, it's ok to point out that not everything he does starts with him.
I mean, how many people blamed GWB for the mess of the mid east when Obama was prez? was that "looking to the past"? no, it was ok to do then, because it was the truth of how we got to where we're at. we don't have to erase history merely because it might make us uncomfortable.
No no no, come on. I'm not sure if he's doing this on purpose or if he's just ignorant to the fact that this guy ORDERED THE MURDER OF AN AMERICAN JOURNALIST just a few months ago and our president is just brushing that aside, despite bipartisan warnings from congress. CONTEXT is hugely important regarding this guy right now.
To ignore that fact is either out of laziness or ignorance or trolliness.
yeah, so the guy was Mr Rodgers up until that point. Ok.
Ha....are you kidding? Of course not. But things and relationships with countries tend to change when something as egregious like that happens. With Trump? Eh, NBD.
I mean, goodness, how often do you get BI-PARTISAN support for ANYTHING in congress these days? Crazy this is even debatable right now...
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The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,261
Seriously. WTF? Let's debate something that happened a decade ago instead of being worried about what is happening RIGHT NOW. What kind of sense does that make? None.
Because that's where it started?
If we never got involved, we wouldn't be relying on Trump to end it
Now you guys just want to ignore history? Lol
Where does any of this all really originate from though? You (figuratively) can't keep picking and choosing a starting and ending time to suit the point for these issues. Why not trace it back to the beginning of the last century when the US began trying to influence and control foreign countries, particularly the middle east? That surely has more to do with where things are at today than the last few presidents. The current one doesn't seem to give a shit right now, today, so that is what is being discussed. If Obama or any other prior president were doing this right now, today, then they would get the same backlash, but Fox would be running headlines non-stop about how it was another indicator of him being a foreign born Muslim tarnishing America the beautiful. There are still people who care no matter what party occupies the WH,
Coming to this thread is more disappointing than going to the NIN website to see a With Teeth vinyl release update.
I see 65 new posts and think to myself, "Holy shit. Something's happened." Then I see the same dodgeball game being played between My2 and everyone else (with a bit of spew from Rolemodles) lol.
Hamberders.
* Hey my membership expires on the 20th. I'm torn. Do I renew? I've cancelled autorenewal and thought maybe not to. Nothing to do with this place. Serious question.
I feel that there might be some shows in the near future that I'd be missing out on.
Coming to this thread is more disappointing than going to the NIN website to see a With Teeth vinyl release update.
I see 65 new posts and think to myself, "Holy shit. Something's happened." Then I see the same dodgeball game being played between My2 and everyone else (with a bit of spew from Rolemodles) lol.
Hamberders.
* Hey my membership expires on the 20th. I'm torn. Do I renew? I've cancelled autorenewal and thought maybe not to. Nothing to do with this place. Serious question.
I feel that there might be some shows in the near future that I'd be missing out on.
We'd miss you on the forums, but if you aren't getting the bang for your buck, it's understandable. Mine renews a week after you and I already switched to digital. Contemplating whether it's worth it as well though...
Coming to this thread is more disappointing than going to the NIN website to see a With Teeth vinyl release update.
I see 65 new posts and think to myself, "Holy shit. Something's happened." Then I see the same dodgeball game being played between My2 and everyone else (with a bit of spew from Rolemodles) lol.
Hamberders.
* Hey my membership expires on the 20th. I'm torn. Do I renew? I've cancelled autorenewal and thought maybe not to. Nothing to do with this place. Serious question.
I feel that there might be some shows in the near future that I'd be missing out on.
Something did happen though, and is kind of a big deal... and we all agree that we disagree with the veto... just some of us have shorter memories than others
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Kat
There's a lot to be said for nowhere. Posts: 4,772
nope...says can't upload pictures ...YET Juggler did it somehow
Thanks for the smiles. It's just so funny how the bird strolls into the store, you can almost hear him whistling innocently, then snatches the bag and runs out lickety-split. I wish these forums allowed sig pics...really sorry they don't.
Even if Mueller’s team doesn’t want to take this path, @RepJerryNadler can ask a court to release all grand jury material to the House Judiciary Committee on the ground that his investigation is “preliminary to” a “judicial inquiry” in the form of a Senate impeachment trial.Laurence Tribe added,
BREAKING NEWS: Mueller or his team are free to share with Nadler and Schiff grand jury material about hostile foreign interference with the 2016 election without violating any law. See my tweet about the text of 6(e)(3)(D).
Coming to this thread is more disappointing than going to the NIN website to see a With Teeth vinyl release update.
I see 65 new posts and think to myself, "Holy shit. Something's happened." Then I see the same dodgeball game being played between My2 and everyone else (with a bit of spew from Rolemodles) lol.
Hamberders.
* Hey my membership expires on the 20th. I'm torn. Do I renew? I've cancelled autorenewal and thought maybe not to. Nothing to do with this place. Serious question.
I feel that there might be some shows in the near future that I'd be missing out on.
Slap that $20 down you cheap S.O.B.
This thread alone is worth it lol
Wait, whats your #? I might be able to move up a spot lol
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The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,261
nope...says can't upload pictures ...YET Juggler did it somehow
Thanks for the smiles. It's just so funny how the bird strolls into the store, you can almost hear him whistling innocently, then snatches the bag and runs out lickety-split. I wish these forums allowed sig pics...really sorry they don't.
Do what now?
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Options
Kat
There's a lot to be said for nowhere. Posts: 4,772
Seriously. WTF? Let's debate something that happened a decade ago instead of being worried about what is happening RIGHT NOW. What kind of sense does that make? None.
I agree. It's clearly a defense mechanism that allows people to look in the past because they want to turn a blind eye to what is occurring right now. I still can't comprehend how anyone can support Trump. He is, BY FAR, one of the worst (if not the worst) presidents in history.
I'm sure that's true for some, but my2hands isn't a trump supporter. he is merely pointing out that history doesn't start with Jan 20/17. while trump is an awful person and president, it's ok to point out that not everything he does starts with him.
I mean, how many people blamed GWB for the mess of the mid east when Obama was prez? was that "looking to the past"? no, it was ok to do then, because it was the truth of how we got to where we're at. we don't have to erase history merely because it might make us uncomfortable.
No no no, come on. I'm not sure if he's doing this on purpose or if he's just ignorant to the fact that this guy ORDERED THE MURDER OF AN AMERICAN JOURNALIST just a few months ago and our president is just brushing that aside, despite bipartisan warnings from congress. CONTEXT is hugely important regarding this guy right now.
To ignore that fact is either out of laziness or ignorance or trolliness.
yeah, so the guy was Mr Rodgers up until that point. Ok.
Ha....are you kidding? Of course not. But things and relationships with countries tend to change when something as egregious like that happens. With Trump? Eh, NBD.
I mean, goodness, how often do you get BI-PARTISAN support for ANYTHING in congress these days? Crazy this is even debatable right now...
I'm not saying that congress is wrong here. I was just agreeing with M2H on his other point.
nope...says can't upload pictures ...YET Juggler did it somehow
Thanks for the smiles. It's just so funny how the bird strolls into the store, you can almost hear him whistling innocently, then snatches the bag and runs out lickety-split. I wish these forums allowed sig pics...really sorry they don't.
Do what now?
I tried adding a sig pic and it told me it wasn't allowed. is a grandfathered thing?
Why did we wait a full calendar month for the Mueller Report again? Whatever Barr did to that document could have been done in 3 days or less by a group of high school sophomores with a basic understanding of the English language.
Why did we wait a full calendar month for the Mueller Report again? Whatever Barr did to that document could have been done in 3 days or less by a group of high school sophomores with a basic understanding of the English language.
honestly, doubtful. there would have to be an immense amount of fact checking and legal research to make sure all the redactions that are required are completed. I'm not saying at ALL that I trust Barr, but a month for something so important isn't a long time.
WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020AT 07/07/2020
WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020AT 07/07/2020
On February 21, 1975, Mitchell, who was represented by the criminal defense attorney William G. Hundley, was found guilty of conspiracy, obstruction of justice, and perjury and sentenced to two and a half to eight years in prison for his role in the Watergate break-in and cover-up, which he dubbed the "White House horrors." As a result of the conviction, Mitchell was disbarred from the practice of law in New York.
...oh right...
WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020AT 07/07/2020
Comments
You really have some issues to work though it seems. Hope your employer has some sort of assistance program.
I mean, goodness, how often do you get BI-PARTISAN support for ANYTHING in congress these days? Crazy this is even debatable right now...
I see 65 new posts and think to myself, "Holy shit. Something's happened." Then I see the same dodgeball game being played between My2 and everyone else (with a bit of spew from Rolemodles) lol.
Hamberders.
* Hey my membership expires on the 20th. I'm torn. Do I renew? I've cancelled autorenewal and thought maybe not to. Nothing to do with this place. Serious question.
I feel that there might be some shows in the near future that I'd be missing out on.
He may have a career to look forward to in this crazy music industry.
Those PJ GA tickets are the best. You'd hate to miss out on those.
This thread alone is worth it lol
And staying on topic...
https://twitter.com/tribelaw/status/1118248130703712256
www.headstonesband.com
www.headstonesband.com
Why did we wait a full calendar month for the Mueller Report again? Whatever Barr did to that document could have been done in 3 days or less by a group of high school sophomores with a basic understanding of the English language.
www.headstonesband.com
Why do you keep changing your avatar? it's fucking with me lol
Hold onto your butts!
Where I'm not ugly and you're lookin' at me
Remind me again, what happened to Nixon's AG?
...oh right...