Something about teacher's pay...

F Me In The Brain

Halifax2TheMax said:

mcgruff10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mcgruff10 said:

"my kids, grades 5 and 8, get zero homework. their teachers are leaving at 3:15 when the bell rings and they ain't doing a fucking thing on their own time. "
Hugh, 
1.  How do you know those teachers aren't doing anything on their own time?
2.  What is wrong with leaving at 3:15 when they can contractually leave at that time? 
3.  Not too many people give homework anymore, in fact we can't even grade it because you don't know who is actually doing it.  I give zero homework except to study for a test.  

"once you've done it a year or two, if you don't have it down to a day or two science, you're not doing it right."
I like you Hugh but this is just an ignorant statement.  Good teachers are constantly planning and changing things up.  Teaching isn't a science, it is an art.  

Think of teachers as artists and their students as canvases, a pile of different materials or blocks of clay. Some of that will become masterpieces, a small percentage, auctioned at Christies, some will be shown and exhibited in trendy art galleries, some will end up in the Crate & Barrel catalog and others will remain half finished or in the dumpster. Teachers, like artists, need time off to recharge, regain their energy and creativity, to mold and create, hopefully masterpieces but what most artists end up creating, average works that look just fine to somebody sitting in the corner, hanging on their wall, adding value to their everyday. A classroom of 25 to 35, 3rd to 12th graders is hardly a cookie cutter approach for a teacher as is a room full of disparate materials and mediums are for an artist. I'd love to see anyone in here who is not a teacher spend a year in a teacher's shoes and then see whether they complain about the pay and the summer's off, etc., etc.

I think we are now BFF s.  

I'll bring the ice. Or maybe on your underpaid salary, the wine?

He teaches in Jersey, he probably gets a better paycheck than most teachers I know of, judging from what I see in the public listings in Cherry Hill.  (I am happy to read what many of the teachers can make here, I am all for paying the handlers of our obnoxious youth as much as it takes to keep quality minds trying to assist in shaping our kids.  The Zoomers make me want to smash myself in the nuts with a hammer, cannot imagine dealing with them in large groups, all day.)

Make him provide the wine, though!

ecdanc

PJPOWER said:

ecdanc said:

PJPOWER said:

ecdanc said:

I'm a college professor, so this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison, but nonetheless:

I'm on a nine-month contract. I get paid for nine months of the year. If I only worked during those nine months, I would have been fired years ago, because there simply would not be time to do all the work. I average over 40 hours of work per week....52 weeks of the year! Yes, I work fewer hours during the summer, but I'd estimate, on average, I put in about 30 hours a week during the 3 months I'm not being paid. 

If I was on a 9 month contract, I would set boundaries and only work what I am getting paid to work.  If I couldn’t do the work during that time, I would renegotiate my contract or find a new job.  If my employer expected me to work more days than my contract stated, then I would renegotiate my contract or find a new job.  I feel like teachers or teacher unions may have enabled unfair employment practices...and in my opinion, that’s where the ball is being dropped.  Individuals have no leverage because everyone else is enabling unfair practices by essentially choosing to work for free outside of their contracts and making others feel obligated to do the same.

I guess I choose not to be a teacher because I refuse to work for an employer that expects me to work for free three months out of the year.

A lot of what you say here falls under the thread's overall theme: working conditions are often terrible for teachers, yet somehow people (including posters on this thread) think they have it good/easy. 

With that said--and with the caveat/reminder that I teach at the college level, so much of what I will say might not apply to K-12 teachers--a few thoughts on your take:

1) "If I was on a 9 month contract, I would set boundaries and only work what I am getting paid to work." If a tenure-track professor were to do this, they would most likely be "non-reappointed." In other words, they'd be fired. Period. 

2) "If I couldn’t do the work during that time, I would renegotiate my contract." The terms of my contract are set by the state (I work at a public university), yet the expectations for my productivity are set by disciplinary norms and my department's/college's/university's faculty. There is no meaningful way to "renegotiate [the] contract" itself and the actual work I'm asked to produce is designed to measure my fitness as a professor, NOT the extent to which I meet my contract. 

3) "If my employer expected me to work more days than my contract stated, then I would renegotiate my contract or find a new job." I've already addressed the renegotiation part, so I'll address the "find a new job" part here. In many (most?--I'm not entirely sure) disciplines, this is simply not how things work. If you leave a job before receiving tenure, you're borderline unhireable. If you leave after tenure, no one will hire you, because they can't afford to hire associate professors.

For better or worse, the higher education job market operates NOTHING like other job markets, so what you're describing here is not a solution to individual's situations, but a further reminder of the systemic problems that create those situations. 

Clearly, you recognize that the issue is systemic and you're certainly not wrong to point the finger--to some extent--at teachers and unions. But VERY few faculty are unionized. I was unionized as a graduate student, and we went on strike for better conditions. Now, I teach in a right-to-work state, with an extremely timid faculty who do precisely what you suggest ("enabl[e] unfair practices)."

But, and this is the crucial part, you're ignoring the simultaneous, much more significant factor: the dearth of funding. This is certainly true of almost all public higher education in the US, and I believe it's true for a lot of public K-12 districts, as well: teachers are paid what they are paid, and their working conditions are what they are largely because education is underfunded in this country. Why can't most faculty renegotiate or simply find another teaching job? Because there are no jobs. They've been cut as state higher-education budgets have plummeted. 

That's why I read your post as more a recognition of the problem than anything else. You say "If I were in this situation, here's what I would do." You wouldn't do most of the things you describe. Instead, if you were in my situation, you'd be faced with the choice to deal with a broken system or to leave it entirely. Ultimately, then, when you explain why you choose not to be a teacher, you're really implying that NO ONE should be a teacher. That's not actually a solution--so how do you propose we make the job such that people want to do it?

Thank you for your reply and I do believe it is a systemic issue.  I understand what you say about and agree that education is underfunded.  It is going to take some major legislative action or people refusing to work in the field before changes happen (this may be coming).  And I’m not saying that no one should be teachers, but rather that no one should work for free.  Some people attach value in teaching and working outside of contract days through the idea that they are making a difference, which does have value.  How many times have people said “it’s not about the money”...I was a counselor for years and heard that same line over and over when people complained about their pay.   

The issue is when it becomes a culture of everyone thinking they are obligated to work extra hours because a few “overachieving” kiss-asses choose too.  If you don’t, you’re not “pulling your weight”.  

In other job markets, it is illegal to not get compensated for your work, why should teaching be any different?  If all teachers decided to say “fuck it, I’m not working for free”, and didn’t, believe me, things would change.  If everyone at your university refused to work outside of contract days, would they fire everyone?  There are so many saying “that’s just the way it is” that I agree, it would be hard to change things...but again, that is why I refuse to work in such conditions.  It’s flat out shitty that teachers feel they “have” to work days they don’t get paid for.  There needs to be some legal fair labor accountability on administration or something to dissuade people from working outside of contracts or go to a year round schedule/contract to lower the curriculum burden (which some are doing).

The bolded part x 100. I have a colleague that basically hasn't spoken to me in several years, because I once referred to the "extra work" (that she does and that she judges me for not doing) as "scab work." 

Higher education is a unique, fucked up beast. Some of the issues overlap with K-12, but I don't want to distract too much from the thread's central them: many/most teachers should be paid more and treated better than they are. 

mcgruff10

F Me In The Brain said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mcgruff10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mcgruff10 said:

"my kids, grades 5 and 8, get zero homework. their teachers are leaving at 3:15 when the bell rings and they ain't doing a fucking thing on their own time. "
Hugh, 
1.  How do you know those teachers aren't doing anything on their own time?
2.  What is wrong with leaving at 3:15 when they can contractually leave at that time? 
3.  Not too many people give homework anymore, in fact we can't even grade it because you don't know who is actually doing it.  I give zero homework except to study for a test.  

"once you've done it a year or two, if you don't have it down to a day or two science, you're not doing it right."
I like you Hugh but this is just an ignorant statement.  Good teachers are constantly planning and changing things up.  Teaching isn't a science, it is an art.  

Think of teachers as artists and their students as canvases, a pile of different materials or blocks of clay. Some of that will become masterpieces, a small percentage, auctioned at Christies, some will be shown and exhibited in trendy art galleries, some will end up in the Crate & Barrel catalog and others will remain half finished or in the dumpster. Teachers, like artists, need time off to recharge, regain their energy and creativity, to mold and create, hopefully masterpieces but what most artists end up creating, average works that look just fine to somebody sitting in the corner, hanging on their wall, adding value to their everyday. A classroom of 25 to 35, 3rd to 12th graders is hardly a cookie cutter approach for a teacher as is a room full of disparate materials and mediums are for an artist. I'd love to see anyone in here who is not a teacher spend a year in a teacher's shoes and then see whether they complain about the pay and the summer's off, etc., etc.

I think we are now BFF s.  

I'll bring the ice. Or maybe on your underpaid salary, the wine?

He teaches in Jersey, he probably gets a better paycheck than most teachers I know of, judging from what I see in the public listings in Cherry Hill.  (I am happy to read what many of the teachers can make here, I am all for paying the handlers of our obnoxious youth as much as it takes to keep quality minds trying to assist in shaping our kids.  The Zoomers make me want to smash myself in the nuts with a hammer, cannot imagine dealing with them in large groups, all day.)

Make him provide the wine, though!

I have a bottle of popov's with your name written all over it.  

F Me In The Brain

mcgruff10 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mcgruff10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mcgruff10 said:

"my kids, grades 5 and 8, get zero homework. their teachers are leaving at 3:15 when the bell rings and they ain't doing a fucking thing on their own time. "
Hugh, 
1.  How do you know those teachers aren't doing anything on their own time?
2.  What is wrong with leaving at 3:15 when they can contractually leave at that time? 
3.  Not too many people give homework anymore, in fact we can't even grade it because you don't know who is actually doing it.  I give zero homework except to study for a test.  

"once you've done it a year or two, if you don't have it down to a day or two science, you're not doing it right."
I like you Hugh but this is just an ignorant statement.  Good teachers are constantly planning and changing things up.  Teaching isn't a science, it is an art.  

Think of teachers as artists and their students as canvases, a pile of different materials or blocks of clay. Some of that will become masterpieces, a small percentage, auctioned at Christies, some will be shown and exhibited in trendy art galleries, some will end up in the Crate & Barrel catalog and others will remain half finished or in the dumpster. Teachers, like artists, need time off to recharge, regain their energy and creativity, to mold and create, hopefully masterpieces but what most artists end up creating, average works that look just fine to somebody sitting in the corner, hanging on their wall, adding value to their everyday. A classroom of 25 to 35, 3rd to 12th graders is hardly a cookie cutter approach for a teacher as is a room full of disparate materials and mediums are for an artist. I'd love to see anyone in here who is not a teacher spend a year in a teacher's shoes and then see whether they complain about the pay and the summer's off, etc., etc.

I think we are now BFF s.  

I'll bring the ice. Or maybe on your underpaid salary, the wine?

He teaches in Jersey, he probably gets a better paycheck than most teachers I know of, judging from what I see in the public listings in Cherry Hill.  (I am happy to read what many of the teachers can make here, I am all for paying the handlers of our obnoxious youth as much as it takes to keep quality minds trying to assist in shaping our kids.  The Zoomers make me want to smash myself in the nuts with a hammer, cannot imagine dealing with them in large groups, all day.)

Make him provide the wine, though!

I have a bottle of popov's with your name written all over it.  

Hahaha.  Man, I used to kill a handle of that with some five alive and my two roommates.  A handle would last me a year, now.  

mcgruff10

F Me In The Brain said:

mcgruff10 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mcgruff10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mcgruff10 said:

"my kids, grades 5 and 8, get zero homework. their teachers are leaving at 3:15 when the bell rings and they ain't doing a fucking thing on their own time. "
Hugh, 
1.  How do you know those teachers aren't doing anything on their own time?
2.  What is wrong with leaving at 3:15 when they can contractually leave at that time? 
3.  Not too many people give homework anymore, in fact we can't even grade it because you don't know who is actually doing it.  I give zero homework except to study for a test.  

"once you've done it a year or two, if you don't have it down to a day or two science, you're not doing it right."
I like you Hugh but this is just an ignorant statement.  Good teachers are constantly planning and changing things up.  Teaching isn't a science, it is an art.  

Think of teachers as artists and their students as canvases, a pile of different materials or blocks of clay. Some of that will become masterpieces, a small percentage, auctioned at Christies, some will be shown and exhibited in trendy art galleries, some will end up in the Crate & Barrel catalog and others will remain half finished or in the dumpster. Teachers, like artists, need time off to recharge, regain their energy and creativity, to mold and create, hopefully masterpieces but what most artists end up creating, average works that look just fine to somebody sitting in the corner, hanging on their wall, adding value to their everyday. A classroom of 25 to 35, 3rd to 12th graders is hardly a cookie cutter approach for a teacher as is a room full of disparate materials and mediums are for an artist. I'd love to see anyone in here who is not a teacher spend a year in a teacher's shoes and then see whether they complain about the pay and the summer's off, etc., etc.

I think we are now BFF s.  

I'll bring the ice. Or maybe on your underpaid salary, the wine?

He teaches in Jersey, he probably gets a better paycheck than most teachers I know of, judging from what I see in the public listings in Cherry Hill.  (I am happy to read what many of the teachers can make here, I am all for paying the handlers of our obnoxious youth as much as it takes to keep quality minds trying to assist in shaping our kids.  The Zoomers make me want to smash myself in the nuts with a hammer, cannot imagine dealing with them in large groups, all day.)

Make him provide the wine, though!

I have a bottle of popov's with your name written all over it.  

Hahaha.  Man, I used to kill a handle of that with some five alive and my two roommates.  A handle would last me a year, now.  

It takes you a year to drink a handle?!

hrd2imgn

After school is out teachers spend hours each night grading and lesson planning" off the clock.  Our job doesn't stop at closing time.

Assunming they are "good" educators they teach, act as parents, social workers, psychologists and therapists virtually every work day.   They deal  with the baggage life brings every student, every day.  They cant tell a kid go home you are not cutting it, fire them, furlough them, insult them, ignore them.  They are exposed to sicknesses daily.  You see kids dont leave their issues at home like adults at workplaces do, they dont know how to.  We have to teach them subjects, civics, manners, empathy, self confidence....deal with abusive families, poverty's toll on their health, mind, and self image.  Deal with sexual  abuse victims, gangs, suicidal thought, special  needs of every type, from physical, cognitive, social/emotional, and developmental.

We dont run away from this, we sign up for it.  We bring it all into our  own lives on top of all our own personal  issues.  So yeah we get some time off over summer, to do professional  training,  improve our skills and knowledge, and most importantly give  ourselves some peace and sanity to recharge and do it all over again. So dont ever have the gall to bitch about lazy  ass teachers who get summers off.  We do the work of ten people every day.  Performance based models are talk of people who have no clue what the job entails.  We dont get to choose who, where they came from, what they do out of school, and we get it all.  We have idiot lawmakers  from BOTH parties making  the environment unteachable with idiotic discipline plans, garbage curriculum we have little choice in, and underfunded mandates.

Best part is, we do it for them, because they need us, because all too often we are the only  ones who care.  Kids are more than a statistic, more than a number, I would love to see a private sector worker try and deal with 30 kids in any level  class and tell me it is easy and teachers are lazy overpaid bitchers.

brianlux

hrd2imgn said:

After school is out teachers spend hours each night grading and lesson planning" off the clock.  Our job doesn't stop at closing time.

Assunming they are "good" educators they teach, act as parents, social workers, psychologists and therapists virtually every work day.   They deal  with the baggage life brings every student, every day.  They cant tell a kid go home you are not cutting it, fire them, furlough them, insult them, ignore them.  They are exposed to sicknesses daily.  You see kids dont leave their issues at home like adults at workplaces do, they dont know how to.  We have to teach them subjects, civics, manners, empathy, self confidence....deal with abusive families, poverty's toll on their health, mind, and self image.  Deal with sexual  abuse victims, gangs, suicidal thought, special  needs of every type, from physical, cognitive, social/emotional, and developmental.

We dont run away from this, we sign up for it.  We bring it all into our  own lives on top of all our own personal  issues.  So yeah we get some time off over summer, to do professional  training,  improve our skills and knowledge, and most importantly give  ourselves some peace and sanity to recharge and do it all over again. So dont ever have the gall to bitch about lazy  ass teachers who get summers off.  We do the work of ten people every day.  Performance based models are talk of people who have no clue what the job entails.  We dont get to choose who, where they came from, what they do out of school, and we get it all.  We have idiot lawmakers  from BOTH parties making  the environment unteachable with idiotic discipline plans, garbage curriculum we have little choice in, and underfunded mandates.

Best part is, we do it for them, because they need us, because all too often we are the only  ones who care.  Kids are more than a statistic, more than a number, I would love to see a private sector worker try and deal with 30 kids in any level  class and tell me it is easy and teachers are lazy overpaid bitchers.

They are exposed to sicknesses daily.    Great point.  To a point most people don't have to deal with, not even many retail positions because school means kids and kids get sick a lot.  That's just how it is. 

All other point here are great as well hrd2imgn, thanks for being a teacher!  Dedication and stamina.  Kudos!

Spiritual_Chaos

I have a hard time understanding why anyone would be going against teachers.

F Me In The Brain

mcgruff10 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

mcgruff10 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mcgruff10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mcgruff10 said:

"my kids, grades 5 and 8, get zero homework. their teachers are leaving at 3:15 when the bell rings and they ain't doing a fucking thing on their own time. "
Hugh, 
1.  How do you know those teachers aren't doing anything on their own time?
2.  What is wrong with leaving at 3:15 when they can contractually leave at that time? 
3.  Not too many people give homework anymore, in fact we can't even grade it because you don't know who is actually doing it.  I give zero homework except to study for a test.  

"once you've done it a year or two, if you don't have it down to a day or two science, you're not doing it right."
I like you Hugh but this is just an ignorant statement.  Good teachers are constantly planning and changing things up.  Teaching isn't a science, it is an art.  

Think of teachers as artists and their students as canvases, a pile of different materials or blocks of clay. Some of that will become masterpieces, a small percentage, auctioned at Christies, some will be shown and exhibited in trendy art galleries, some will end up in the Crate & Barrel catalog and others will remain half finished or in the dumpster. Teachers, like artists, need time off to recharge, regain their energy and creativity, to mold and create, hopefully masterpieces but what most artists end up creating, average works that look just fine to somebody sitting in the corner, hanging on their wall, adding value to their everyday. A classroom of 25 to 35, 3rd to 12th graders is hardly a cookie cutter approach for a teacher as is a room full of disparate materials and mediums are for an artist. I'd love to see anyone in here who is not a teacher spend a year in a teacher's shoes and then see whether they complain about the pay and the summer's off, etc., etc.

I think we are now BFF s.  

I'll bring the ice. Or maybe on your underpaid salary, the wine?

He teaches in Jersey, he probably gets a better paycheck than most teachers I know of, judging from what I see in the public listings in Cherry Hill.  (I am happy to read what many of the teachers can make here, I am all for paying the handlers of our obnoxious youth as much as it takes to keep quality minds trying to assist in shaping our kids.  The Zoomers make me want to smash myself in the nuts with a hammer, cannot imagine dealing with them in large groups, all day.)

Make him provide the wine, though!

I have a bottle of popov's with your name written all over it.  

Hahaha.  Man, I used to kill a handle of that with some five alive and my two roommates.  A handle would last me a year, now.  

It takes you a year to drink a handle?!

Popov?  At this point it would....that is horrid stuff.
Would likely only be used in emergencies
  

cincybearcat

Spiritual_Chaos said:

I have a hard time understanding why anyone would be going against teachers.

I’m not many people are... is discussing pay/time off/work expectation mean going against?

ecdanc

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

I have a hard time understanding why anyone would be going against teachers.

I’m not many people are... is discussing pay/time off/work expectation mean going against?

Well, that depends on what you're saying about those things...

cincybearcat

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

I have a hard time understanding why anyone would be going against teachers.

I’m not many people are... is discussing pay/time off/work expectation mean going against?

Well, that depends on what you're saying about those things...

So a hypothetical, someone says they think teachers are paid just fine cause they actually only work 3/4 of a year...is that against teachers or just talking about the cost/benefits of the job?  

Halifax2TheMax

F Me In The Brain said:

mcgruff10 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

mcgruff10 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mcgruff10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mcgruff10 said:

"my kids, grades 5 and 8, get zero homework. their teachers are leaving at 3:15 when the bell rings and they ain't doing a fucking thing on their own time. "
Hugh, 
1.  How do you know those teachers aren't doing anything on their own time?
2.  What is wrong with leaving at 3:15 when they can contractually leave at that time? 
3.  Not too many people give homework anymore, in fact we can't even grade it because you don't know who is actually doing it.  I give zero homework except to study for a test.  

"once you've done it a year or two, if you don't have it down to a day or two science, you're not doing it right."
I like you Hugh but this is just an ignorant statement.  Good teachers are constantly planning and changing things up.  Teaching isn't a science, it is an art.  

Think of teachers as artists and their students as canvases, a pile of different materials or blocks of clay. Some of that will become masterpieces, a small percentage, auctioned at Christies, some will be shown and exhibited in trendy art galleries, some will end up in the Crate & Barrel catalog and others will remain half finished or in the dumpster. Teachers, like artists, need time off to recharge, regain their energy and creativity, to mold and create, hopefully masterpieces but what most artists end up creating, average works that look just fine to somebody sitting in the corner, hanging on their wall, adding value to their everyday. A classroom of 25 to 35, 3rd to 12th graders is hardly a cookie cutter approach for a teacher as is a room full of disparate materials and mediums are for an artist. I'd love to see anyone in here who is not a teacher spend a year in a teacher's shoes and then see whether they complain about the pay and the summer's off, etc., etc.

I think we are now BFF s.  

I'll bring the ice. Or maybe on your underpaid salary, the wine?

He teaches in Jersey, he probably gets a better paycheck than most teachers I know of, judging from what I see in the public listings in Cherry Hill.  (I am happy to read what many of the teachers can make here, I am all for paying the handlers of our obnoxious youth as much as it takes to keep quality minds trying to assist in shaping our kids.  The Zoomers make me want to smash myself in the nuts with a hammer, cannot imagine dealing with them in large groups, all day.)

Make him provide the wine, though!

I have a bottle of popov's with your name written all over it.  

Hahaha.  Man, I used to kill a handle of that with some five alive and my two roommates.  A handle would last me a year, now.  

It takes you a year to drink a handle?!

Popov?  At this point it would....that is horrid stuff.
Would likely only be used in emergencies
  

And Sunny Delight makes for a great day!

ecdanc

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

I have a hard time understanding why anyone would be going against teachers.

I’m not many people are... is discussing pay/time off/work expectation mean going against?

Well, that depends on what you're saying about those things...

So a hypothetical, someone says they think teachers are paid just fine cause they actually only work 3/4 of a year...is that against teachers or just talking about the cost/benefits of the job?  

If they say that in response to "teachers should get paid more," I'd suggest it's against teachers. 

F Me In The Brain

Halifax2TheMax said:

F Me In The Brain said:

mcgruff10 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

mcgruff10 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mcgruff10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mcgruff10 said:

"my kids, grades 5 and 8, get zero homework. their teachers are leaving at 3:15 when the bell rings and they ain't doing a fucking thing on their own time. "
Hugh, 
1.  How do you know those teachers aren't doing anything on their own time?
2.  What is wrong with leaving at 3:15 when they can contractually leave at that time? 
3.  Not too many people give homework anymore, in fact we can't even grade it because you don't know who is actually doing it.  I give zero homework except to study for a test.  

"once you've done it a year or two, if you don't have it down to a day or two science, you're not doing it right."
I like you Hugh but this is just an ignorant statement.  Good teachers are constantly planning and changing things up.  Teaching isn't a science, it is an art.  

Think of teachers as artists and their students as canvases, a pile of different materials or blocks of clay. Some of that will become masterpieces, a small percentage, auctioned at Christies, some will be shown and exhibited in trendy art galleries, some will end up in the Crate & Barrel catalog and others will remain half finished or in the dumpster. Teachers, like artists, need time off to recharge, regain their energy and creativity, to mold and create, hopefully masterpieces but what most artists end up creating, average works that look just fine to somebody sitting in the corner, hanging on their wall, adding value to their everyday. A classroom of 25 to 35, 3rd to 12th graders is hardly a cookie cutter approach for a teacher as is a room full of disparate materials and mediums are for an artist. I'd love to see anyone in here who is not a teacher spend a year in a teacher's shoes and then see whether they complain about the pay and the summer's off, etc., etc.

I think we are now BFF s.  

I'll bring the ice. Or maybe on your underpaid salary, the wine?

He teaches in Jersey, he probably gets a better paycheck than most teachers I know of, judging from what I see in the public listings in Cherry Hill.  (I am happy to read what many of the teachers can make here, I am all for paying the handlers of our obnoxious youth as much as it takes to keep quality minds trying to assist in shaping our kids.  The Zoomers make me want to smash myself in the nuts with a hammer, cannot imagine dealing with them in large groups, all day.)

Make him provide the wine, though!

I have a bottle of popov's with your name written all over it.  

Hahaha.  Man, I used to kill a handle of that with some five alive and my two roommates.  A handle would last me a year, now.  

It takes you a year to drink a handle?!

Popov?  At this point it would....that is horrid stuff.
Would likely only be used in emergencies
  

And Sunny Delight makes for a great day!

I prefer Five Alive to Sunny D, but that is the type of thing you need to do w/Popov....agreed!

Halifax2TheMax

F Me In The Brain said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

F Me In The Brain said:

mcgruff10 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

mcgruff10 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mcgruff10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mcgruff10 said:

"my kids, grades 5 and 8, get zero homework. their teachers are leaving at 3:15 when the bell rings and they ain't doing a fucking thing on their own time. "
Hugh, 
1.  How do you know those teachers aren't doing anything on their own time?
2.  What is wrong with leaving at 3:15 when they can contractually leave at that time? 
3.  Not too many people give homework anymore, in fact we can't even grade it because you don't know who is actually doing it.  I give zero homework except to study for a test.  

"once you've done it a year or two, if you don't have it down to a day or two science, you're not doing it right."
I like you Hugh but this is just an ignorant statement.  Good teachers are constantly planning and changing things up.  Teaching isn't a science, it is an art.  

Think of teachers as artists and their students as canvases, a pile of different materials or blocks of clay. Some of that will become masterpieces, a small percentage, auctioned at Christies, some will be shown and exhibited in trendy art galleries, some will end up in the Crate & Barrel catalog and others will remain half finished or in the dumpster. Teachers, like artists, need time off to recharge, regain their energy and creativity, to mold and create, hopefully masterpieces but what most artists end up creating, average works that look just fine to somebody sitting in the corner, hanging on their wall, adding value to their everyday. A classroom of 25 to 35, 3rd to 12th graders is hardly a cookie cutter approach for a teacher as is a room full of disparate materials and mediums are for an artist. I'd love to see anyone in here who is not a teacher spend a year in a teacher's shoes and then see whether they complain about the pay and the summer's off, etc., etc.

I think we are now BFF s.  

I'll bring the ice. Or maybe on your underpaid salary, the wine?

He teaches in Jersey, he probably gets a better paycheck than most teachers I know of, judging from what I see in the public listings in Cherry Hill.  (I am happy to read what many of the teachers can make here, I am all for paying the handlers of our obnoxious youth as much as it takes to keep quality minds trying to assist in shaping our kids.  The Zoomers make me want to smash myself in the nuts with a hammer, cannot imagine dealing with them in large groups, all day.)

Make him provide the wine, though!

I have a bottle of popov's with your name written all over it.  

Hahaha.  Man, I used to kill a handle of that with some five alive and my two roommates.  A handle would last me a year, now.  

It takes you a year to drink a handle?!

Popov?  At this point it would....that is horrid stuff.
Would likely only be used in emergencies
  

And Sunny Delight makes for a great day!

I prefer Five Alive to Sunny D, but that is the type of thing you need to do w/Popov....agreed!

Breakfast of Champions!

mace1229

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

I have a hard time understanding why anyone would be going against teachers.

I’m not many people are... is discussing pay/time off/work expectation mean going against?

Well, that depends on what you're saying about those things...

So a hypothetical, someone says they think teachers are paid just fine cause they actually only work 3/4 of a year...is that against teachers or just talking about the cost/benefits of the job?  

If they say that in response to "teachers should get paid more," I'd suggest it's against teachers. 

I agree. Some or even many states teachers are getting paid at or just above the poverty level. To say they don’t deserve more is going against them

cincybearcat

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

I have a hard time understanding why anyone would be going against teachers.

I’m not many people are... is discussing pay/time off/work expectation mean going against?

Well, that depends on what you're saying about those things...

So a hypothetical, someone says they think teachers are paid just fine cause they actually only work 3/4 of a year...is that against teachers or just talking about the cost/benefits of the job?  

If they say that in response to "teachers should get paid more," I'd suggest it's against teachers. 

So it appears the real answer is yes you think any conversation is against teachers. And you call police “not workers”

ecdanc

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

I have a hard time understanding why anyone would be going against teachers.

I’m not many people are... is discussing pay/time off/work expectation mean going against?

Well, that depends on what you're saying about those things...

So a hypothetical, someone says they think teachers are paid just fine cause they actually only work 3/4 of a year...is that against teachers or just talking about the cost/benefits of the job?  

If they say that in response to "teachers should get paid more," I'd suggest it's against teachers. 

So it appears the real answer is yes you think any conversation is against teachers. And you call police “not workers”

Nuance isn't really your thing, is it?

cincybearcat

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

I have a hard time understanding why anyone would be going against teachers.

I’m not many people are... is discussing pay/time off/work expectation mean going against?

Well, that depends on what you're saying about those things...

So a hypothetical, someone says they think teachers are paid just fine cause they actually only work 3/4 of a year...is that against teachers or just talking about the cost/benefits of the job?  

If they say that in response to "teachers should get paid more," I'd suggest it's against teachers. 

So it appears the real answer is yes you think any conversation is against teachers. And you call police “not workers”

Nuance isn't really your thing, is it?

Conversation aren’t yours are they?