she clearly needs an editor ... like is spell check not available?
in any case - this story is all too familiar ... i do think what's in pandora's box should be discussed but will never be because it's now considered victim-blaming ... but the reality is that there are a multitude of consequences associated with getting that drunk that would have left her crucified by society but because of what happened - it's not being discussed at all ...
before people get bent out of shape ... i don't condone rape or sexual assault of any kind and this asshole clearly did not get a harsh enough sentence ... it's simply that the victim has to hold herself to account ... saying she drank too much not factoring she didn't have the tolerance of when she was in college is her rationalizing her own role in this ... again - i'm not making excuses for the assailant here nor saying she deserved it ... just asking where she is in acknowledging the fact she got so damn drunk that she couldn't remember a single thing ...
Drinking so much you don't remember shit isn't a felony. Rape is.
i'm not saying it is ...
but if she drinks that much and gets in a car - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and vandalizes a house - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and breaks a leg falling down stairs - no one would have too much sympathy for her ... if any of the above happened - we'd be sitting around discussing how irresponsible she was with her alcohol consumption but we aren't ...
And the thing that all of your examples have in common is that no one else attacked her. If someone had PUSHED her down those stairs, I'm pretty sure people would be after the pusher, not the drunk pushee for standing too close to a flight of stairs while wasted.
exactly...holy shit
um, yeah. polaris, I think you need to rethink your stance on this.
as expected ... don't think anyone gets my point ... oh well ... too much to ask of the train I think ...
I get your point, and it does have some validity, though it is insensitive by very nature. I don't see it as victim blaming, but I'm sure some will. As far as I see it, you aren't calling for anything more than for young people (women particularly) to take this as an example of how important it is for each individual to ensure their own safety by maintaining situational awareness. It is not OK for the attacker (or anyone on his side) to invoke the binge drinking culture in any way, but I feel it is OK for those on the victim's side to try and pass on the message that people can't be trusted and getting blackout drunk is a very bad idea under ANY circumstance.
exactly!
it is somewhat insensitive in that if we are to attach personal emotions to this story ... but my comment was a rational one based on an objective look at this story ...
yes, we all get that was your point. but it's not valid.
you are saying she is at least partly at fault for the assault happening. she is not. she should be able to be black out drunk and taken off all of her clothes and start masturbating on a platform and still have every right not to be touched. case closed.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
she clearly needs an editor ... like is spell check not available?
in any case - this story is all too familiar ... i do think what's in pandora's box should be discussed but will never be because it's now considered victim-blaming ... but the reality is that there are a multitude of consequences associated with getting that drunk that would have left her crucified by society but because of what happened - it's not being discussed at all ...
before people get bent out of shape ... i don't condone rape or sexual assault of any kind and this asshole clearly did not get a harsh enough sentence ... it's simply that the victim has to hold herself to account ... saying she drank too much not factoring she didn't have the tolerance of when she was in college is her rationalizing her own role in this ... again - i'm not making excuses for the assailant here nor saying she deserved it ... just asking where she is in acknowledging the fact she got so damn drunk that she couldn't remember a single thing ...
Drinking so much you don't remember shit isn't a felony. Rape is.
i'm not saying it is ...
but if she drinks that much and gets in a car - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and vandalizes a house - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and breaks a leg falling down stairs - no one would have too much sympathy for her ... if any of the above happened - we'd be sitting around discussing how irresponsible she was with her alcohol consumption but we aren't ...
And the thing that all of your examples have in common is that no one else attacked her. If someone had PUSHED her down those stairs, I'm pretty sure people would be after the pusher, not the drunk pushee for standing too close to a flight of stairs while wasted.
exactly...holy shit
um, yeah. polaris, I think you need to rethink your stance on this.
as expected ... don't think anyone gets my point ... oh well ... too much to ask of the train I think ...
I get your point, and it does have some validity, though it is insensitive by very nature. I don't see it as victim blaming, but I'm sure some will. As far as I see it, you aren't calling for anything more than for young people (women particularly) to take this as an example of how important it is for each individual to ensure their own safety by maintaining situational awareness. It is not OK for the attacker (or anyone on his side) to invoke the binge drinking culture in any way, but I feel it is OK for those on the victim's side to try and pass on the message that people can't be trusted and getting blackout drunk is a very bad idea under ANY circumstance.
exactly!
it is somewhat insensitive in that if we are to attach personal emotions to this story ... but my comment was a rational one based on an objective look at this story ...
yes, we all get that was your point. but it's not valid.
you are saying she is at least partly at fault for the assault happening. she is not. she should be able to be black out drunk and taken off all of her clothes and start masturbating on a platform and still have every right not to be touched. case closed.
she clearly needs an editor ... like is spell check not available?
in any case - this story is all too familiar ... i do think what's in pandora's box should be discussed but will never be because it's now considered victim-blaming ... but the reality is that there are a multitude of consequences associated with getting that drunk that would have left her crucified by society but because of what happened - it's not being discussed at all ...
before people get bent out of shape ... i don't condone rape or sexual assault of any kind and this asshole clearly did not get a harsh enough sentence ... it's simply that the victim has to hold herself to account ... saying she drank too much not factoring she didn't have the tolerance of when she was in college is her rationalizing her own role in this ... again - i'm not making excuses for the assailant here nor saying she deserved it ... just asking where she is in acknowledging the fact she got so damn drunk that she couldn't remember a single thing ...
Drinking so much you don't remember shit isn't a felony. Rape is.
i'm not saying it is ...
but if she drinks that much and gets in a car - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and vandalizes a house - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and breaks a leg falling down stairs - no one would have too much sympathy for her ... if any of the above happened - we'd be sitting around discussing how irresponsible she was with her alcohol consumption but we aren't ...
And the thing that all of your examples have in common is that no one else attacked her. If someone had PUSHED her down those stairs, I'm pretty sure people would be after the pusher, not the drunk pushee for standing too close to a flight of stairs while wasted.
exactly...holy shit
um, yeah. polaris, I think you need to rethink your stance on this.
as expected ... don't think anyone gets my point ... oh well ... too much to ask of the train I think ...
I get your point, and it does have some validity, though it is insensitive by very nature. I don't see it as victim blaming, but I'm sure some will. As far as I see it, you aren't calling for anything more than for young people (women particularly) to take this as an example of how important it is for each individual to ensure their own safety by maintaining situational awareness. It is not OK for the attacker (or anyone on his side) to invoke the binge drinking culture in any way, but I feel it is OK for those on the victim's side to try and pass on the message that people can't be trusted and getting blackout drunk is a very bad idea under ANY circumstance.
exactly!
it is somewhat insensitive in that if we are to attach personal emotions to this story ... but my comment was a rational one based on an objective look at this story ...
yes, we all get that was your point. but it's not valid.
you are saying she is at least partly at fault for the assault happening. she is not. she should be able to be black out drunk and taken off all of her clothes and start masturbating on a platform and still have every right not to be touched. case closed.
that's not my point ... ughhhh
you originally said she needs to hold herself to account. she did. she acknowledged she drank more than she should have.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
she clearly needs an editor ... like is spell check not available?
in any case - this story is all too familiar ... i do think what's in pandora's box should be discussed but will never be because it's now considered victim-blaming ... but the reality is that there are a multitude of consequences associated with getting that drunk that would have left her crucified by society but because of what happened - it's not being discussed at all ...
before people get bent out of shape ... i don't condone rape or sexual assault of any kind and this asshole clearly did not get a harsh enough sentence ... it's simply that the victim has to hold herself to account ... saying she drank too much not factoring she didn't have the tolerance of when she was in college is her rationalizing her own role in this ... again - i'm not making excuses for the assailant here nor saying she deserved it ... just asking where she is in acknowledging the fact she got so damn drunk that she couldn't remember a single thing ...
Drinking so much you don't remember shit isn't a felony. Rape is.
i'm not saying it is ...
but if she drinks that much and gets in a car - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and vandalizes a house - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and breaks a leg falling down stairs - no one would have too much sympathy for her ... if any of the above happened - we'd be sitting around discussing how irresponsible she was with her alcohol consumption but we aren't ...
And the thing that all of your examples have in common is that no one else attacked her. If someone had PUSHED her down those stairs, I'm pretty sure people would be after the pusher, not the drunk pushee for standing too close to a flight of stairs while wasted.
exactly...holy shit
um, yeah. polaris, I think you need to rethink your stance on this.
as expected ... don't think anyone gets my point ... oh well ... too much to ask of the train I think ...
I get your point, and it does have some validity, though it is insensitive by very nature. I don't see it as victim blaming, but I'm sure some will. As far as I see it, you aren't calling for anything more than for young people (women particularly) to take this as an example of how important it is for each individual to ensure their own safety by maintaining situational awareness. It is not OK for the attacker (or anyone on his side) to invoke the binge drinking culture in any way, but I feel it is OK for those on the victim's side to try and pass on the message that people can't be trusted and getting blackout drunk is a very bad idea under ANY circumstance.
exactly!
it is somewhat insensitive in that if we are to attach personal emotions to this story ... but my comment was a rational one based on an objective look at this story ...
yes, we all get that was your point. but it's not valid.
you are saying she is at least partly at fault for the assault happening. she is not. she should be able to be black out drunk and taken off all of her clothes and start masturbating on a platform and still have every right not to be touched. case closed.
that's not my point ... ughhhh
you originally said she needs to hold herself to account. she did. she acknowledged she drank more than she should have.
she calls it an 'amateur mistake' ... and yes, she does call alcohol a factor in this story ... i just don't think it's acknowledged in a way where we can learn from it ...
i agree, she could do all the things you said and she shouldn't be touched ... but are we to ignore that aspect of the story altogether? ...
she clearly needs an editor ... like is spell check not available?
in any case - this story is all too familiar ... i do think what's in pandora's box should be discussed but will never be because it's now considered victim-blaming ... but the reality is that there are a multitude of consequences associated with getting that drunk that would have left her crucified by society but because of what happened - it's not being discussed at all ...
before people get bent out of shape ... i don't condone rape or sexual assault of any kind and this asshole clearly did not get a harsh enough sentence ... it's simply that the victim has to hold herself to account ... saying she drank too much not factoring she didn't have the tolerance of when she was in college is her rationalizing her own role in this ... again - i'm not making excuses for the assailant here nor saying she deserved it ... just asking where she is in acknowledging the fact she got so damn drunk that she couldn't remember a single thing ...
Drinking so much you don't remember shit isn't a felony. Rape is.
i'm not saying it is ...
but if she drinks that much and gets in a car - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and vandalizes a house - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and breaks a leg falling down stairs - no one would have too much sympathy for her ... if any of the above happened - we'd be sitting around discussing how irresponsible she was with her alcohol consumption but we aren't ...
And the thing that all of your examples have in common is that no one else attacked her. If someone had PUSHED her down those stairs, I'm pretty sure people would be after the pusher, not the drunk pushee for standing too close to a flight of stairs while wasted.
exactly...holy shit
um, yeah. polaris, I think you need to rethink your stance on this.
as expected ... don't think anyone gets my point ... oh well ... too much to ask of the train I think ...
I get your point, and it does have some validity, though it is insensitive by very nature. I don't see it as victim blaming, but I'm sure some will. As far as I see it, you aren't calling for anything more than for young people (women particularly) to take this as an example of how important it is for each individual to ensure their own safety by maintaining situational awareness. It is not OK for the attacker (or anyone on his side) to invoke the binge drinking culture in any way, but I feel it is OK for those on the victim's side to try and pass on the message that people can't be trusted and getting blackout drunk is a very bad idea under ANY circumstance.
for women. therein lies the problem with this message. guys can do what they want (get blind drunk) without consequence, but a woman can't. this message is no different than saying "don't wear a short skirt if you know what's good for you".
That is absolutely ridiculous. Maintaining consciousness so that you can AT LEAST call for help if attacked is not at all the same, and it's absolutely fucking ridiculous to conflate the two. Getting blackout drunk has serious potential consequences for men too, they are just different.
Being a woman is different than being a man, if for no other reason than that all women have something that the scumiest, lowest men are willing to take without permission. If I had a daughter I would consider it a serious failure as a parent to not make her aware that there are predators who will treat her as prey. Basic Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, self-defense weapons, and most important, maintaining awareness are the realities that all women should adopt in this world where human nature is shit.
It isn't about how fair it is that women need to be more careful than men, fair is the place you go for cotton candy. It is reality. That doesn't take the blame away from the scummy, lowlife men who pose a threat to women, and it doesn't place blame on the victim, it simply addresses the reality of life among humans.
she clearly needs an editor ... like is spell check not available?
in any case - this story is all too familiar ... i do think what's in pandora's box should be discussed but will never be because it's now considered victim-blaming ... but the reality is that there are a multitude of consequences associated with getting that drunk that would have left her crucified by society but because of what happened - it's not being discussed at all ...
before people get bent out of shape ... i don't condone rape or sexual assault of any kind and this asshole clearly did not get a harsh enough sentence ... it's simply that the victim has to hold herself to account ... saying she drank too much not factoring she didn't have the tolerance of when she was in college is her rationalizing her own role in this ... again - i'm not making excuses for the assailant here nor saying she deserved it ... just asking where she is in acknowledging the fact she got so damn drunk that she couldn't remember a single thing ...
Drinking so much you don't remember shit isn't a felony. Rape is.
i'm not saying it is ...
but if she drinks that much and gets in a car - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and vandalizes a house - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and breaks a leg falling down stairs - no one would have too much sympathy for her ... if any of the above happened - we'd be sitting around discussing how irresponsible she was with her alcohol consumption but we aren't ...
And the thing that all of your examples have in common is that no one else attacked her. If someone had PUSHED her down those stairs, I'm pretty sure people would be after the pusher, not the drunk pushee for standing too close to a flight of stairs while wasted.
exactly...holy shit
um, yeah. polaris, I think you need to rethink your stance on this.
as expected ... don't think anyone gets my point ... oh well ... too much to ask of the train I think ...
I get your point, and it does have some validity, though it is insensitive by very nature. I don't see it as victim blaming, but I'm sure some will. As far as I see it, you aren't calling for anything more than for young people (women particularly) to take this as an example of how important it is for each individual to ensure their own safety by maintaining situational awareness. It is not OK for the attacker (or anyone on his side) to invoke the binge drinking culture in any way, but I feel it is OK for those on the victim's side to try and pass on the message that people can't be trusted and getting blackout drunk is a very bad idea under ANY circumstance.
for women. therein lies the problem with this message. guys can do what they want (get blind drunk) without consequence, but a woman can't. this message is no different than saying "don't wear a short skirt if you know what's good for you".
That is absolutely ridiculous. Maintaining consciousness so that you can AT LEAST call for help if attacked is not at all the same, and it's absolutely fucking ridiculous to conflate the two. Getting blackout drunk has serious potential consequences for men too, they are just different.
Being a woman is different than being a man, if for no other reason than that all women have something that the scumiest, lowest men are willing to take without permission. If I had a daughter I would consider it a serious failure as a parent to not make her aware that there are predators who will treat her as prey. Basic Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, self-defense weapons, and most important, maintaining awareness are the realities that all women should adopt in this world where human nature is shit.
It isn't about how fair it is that women need to be more careful than men, fair is the place you go for cotton candy. It is reality. That doesn't take the blame away from the scummy, lowlife men who pose a threat to women, and it doesn't place blame on the victim, it simply addresses the reality of life among humans.
yeah, so let's just accept reality the way it is instead of trying to change that reality.
you never got so drunk you lost your faculties? we all have. and we all have the right to assume we won't be assaulted.
slippery slopes.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
she clearly needs an editor ... like is spell check not available?
in any case - this story is all too familiar ... i do think what's in pandora's box should be discussed but will never be because it's now considered victim-blaming ... but the reality is that there are a multitude of consequences associated with getting that drunk that would have left her crucified by society but because of what happened - it's not being discussed at all ...
before people get bent out of shape ... i don't condone rape or sexual assault of any kind and this asshole clearly did not get a harsh enough sentence ... it's simply that the victim has to hold herself to account ... saying she drank too much not factoring she didn't have the tolerance of when she was in college is her rationalizing her own role in this ... again - i'm not making excuses for the assailant here nor saying she deserved it ... just asking where she is in acknowledging the fact she got so damn drunk that she couldn't remember a single thing ...
Drinking so much you don't remember shit isn't a felony. Rape is.
i'm not saying it is ...
but if she drinks that much and gets in a car - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and vandalizes a house - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and breaks a leg falling down stairs - no one would have too much sympathy for her ... if any of the above happened - we'd be sitting around discussing how irresponsible she was with her alcohol consumption but we aren't ...
And the thing that all of your examples have in common is that no one else attacked her. If someone had PUSHED her down those stairs, I'm pretty sure people would be after the pusher, not the drunk pushee for standing too close to a flight of stairs while wasted.
exactly...holy shit
um, yeah. polaris, I think you need to rethink your stance on this.
as expected ... don't think anyone gets my point ... oh well ... too much to ask of the train I think ...
I get your point, and it does have some validity, though it is insensitive by very nature. I don't see it as victim blaming, but I'm sure some will. As far as I see it, you aren't calling for anything more than for young people (women particularly) to take this as an example of how important it is for each individual to ensure their own safety by maintaining situational awareness. It is not OK for the attacker (or anyone on his side) to invoke the binge drinking culture in any way, but I feel it is OK for those on the victim's side to try and pass on the message that people can't be trusted and getting blackout drunk is a very bad idea under ANY circumstance.
exactly!
it is somewhat insensitive in that if we are to attach personal emotions to this story ... but my comment was a rational one based on an objective look at this story ...
yes, we all get that was your point. but it's not valid.
you are saying she is at least partly at fault for the assault happening. she is not. she should be able to be black out drunk and taken off all of her clothes and start masturbating on a platform and still have every right not to be touched. case closed.
that's not my point ... ughhhh
you originally said she needs to hold herself to account. she did. she acknowledged she drank more than she should have.
she calls it an 'amateur mistake' ... and yes, she does call alcohol a factor in this story ... i just don't think it's acknowledged in a way where we can learn from it ...
i agree, she could do all the things you said and she shouldn't be touched ... but are we to ignore that aspect of the story altogether? ...
no one ignored it. SHE ACKNOWLEDGED IT. what did you want her to do? come out and say "this never would have happened if I hadn't drank?". that would be a fabulous message to send.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
she clearly needs an editor ... like is spell check not available?
in any case - this story is all too familiar ... i do think what's in pandora's box should be discussed but will never be because it's now considered victim-blaming ... but the reality is that there are a multitude of consequences associated with getting that drunk that would have left her crucified by society but because of what happened - it's not being discussed at all ...
before people get bent out of shape ... i don't condone rape or sexual assault of any kind and this asshole clearly did not get a harsh enough sentence ... it's simply that the victim has to hold herself to account ... saying she drank too much not factoring she didn't have the tolerance of when she was in college is her rationalizing her own role in this ... again - i'm not making excuses for the assailant here nor saying she deserved it ... just asking where she is in acknowledging the fact she got so damn drunk that she couldn't remember a single thing ...
Drinking so much you don't remember shit isn't a felony. Rape is.
i'm not saying it is ...
but if she drinks that much and gets in a car - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and vandalizes a house - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and breaks a leg falling down stairs - no one would have too much sympathy for her ... if any of the above happened - we'd be sitting around discussing how irresponsible she was with her alcohol consumption but we aren't ...
And the thing that all of your examples have in common is that no one else attacked her. If someone had PUSHED her down those stairs, I'm pretty sure people would be after the pusher, not the drunk pushee for standing too close to a flight of stairs while wasted.
exactly...holy shit
um, yeah. polaris, I think you need to rethink your stance on this.
as expected ... don't think anyone gets my point ... oh well ... too much to ask of the train I think ...
I get your point, and it does have some validity, though it is insensitive by very nature. I don't see it as victim blaming, but I'm sure some will. As far as I see it, you aren't calling for anything more than for young people (women particularly) to take this as an example of how important it is for each individual to ensure their own safety by maintaining situational awareness. It is not OK for the attacker (or anyone on his side) to invoke the binge drinking culture in any way, but I feel it is OK for those on the victim's side to try and pass on the message that people can't be trusted and getting blackout drunk is a very bad idea under ANY circumstance.
for women. therein lies the problem with this message. guys can do what they want (get blind drunk) without consequence, but a woman can't. this message is no different than saying "don't wear a short skirt if you know what's good for you".
That is absolutely ridiculous. Maintaining consciousness so that you can AT LEAST call for help if attacked is not at all the same, and it's absolutely fucking ridiculous to conflate the two. Getting blackout drunk has serious potential consequences for men too, they are just different.
Being a woman is different than being a man, if for no other reason than that all women have something that the scumiest, lowest men are willing to take without permission. If I had a daughter I would consider it a serious failure as a parent to not make her aware that there are predators who will treat her as prey. Basic Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, self-defense weapons, and most important, maintaining awareness are the realities that all women should adopt in this world where human nature is shit.
It isn't about how fair it is that women need to be more careful than men, fair is the place you go for cotton candy. It is reality. That doesn't take the blame away from the scummy, lowlife men who pose a threat to women, and it doesn't place blame on the victim, it simply addresses the reality of life among humans.
yeah, so let's just accept reality the way it is instead of trying to change that reality. you never got so drunk you lost your faculties? we all have. and we all have the right to assume we won't be assaulted.
slippery slopes.
Fuck no I haven't!
You can try to change reality all you want, as long as you are prepared to deal with it as it currently exists. What makes you think the two can't coexist???
Do you leave your wallet on the table when you use the restroom at a restaurant?? Why not? We all have the right to assume we won't be stolen from don't we?
she clearly needs an editor ... like is spell check not available?
in any case - this story is all too familiar ... i do think what's in pandora's box should be discussed but will never be because it's now considered victim-blaming ... but the reality is that there are a multitude of consequences associated with getting that drunk that would have left her crucified by society but because of what happened - it's not being discussed at all ...
before people get bent out of shape ... i don't condone rape or sexual assault of any kind and this asshole clearly did not get a harsh enough sentence ... it's simply that the victim has to hold herself to account ... saying she drank too much not factoring she didn't have the tolerance of when she was in college is her rationalizing her own role in this ... again - i'm not making excuses for the assailant here nor saying she deserved it ... just asking where she is in acknowledging the fact she got so damn drunk that she couldn't remember a single thing ...
Drinking so much you don't remember shit isn't a felony. Rape is.
i'm not saying it is ...
but if she drinks that much and gets in a car - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and vandalizes a house - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and breaks a leg falling down stairs - no one would have too much sympathy for her ... if any of the above happened - we'd be sitting around discussing how irresponsible she was with her alcohol consumption but we aren't ...
And the thing that all of your examples have in common is that no one else attacked her. If someone had PUSHED her down those stairs, I'm pretty sure people would be after the pusher, not the drunk pushee for standing too close to a flight of stairs while wasted.
exactly...holy shit
um, yeah. polaris, I think you need to rethink your stance on this.
as expected ... don't think anyone gets my point ... oh well ... too much to ask of the train I think ...
I get your point, and it does have some validity, though it is insensitive by very nature. I don't see it as victim blaming, but I'm sure some will. As far as I see it, you aren't calling for anything more than for young people (women particularly) to take this as an example of how important it is for each individual to ensure their own safety by maintaining situational awareness. It is not OK for the attacker (or anyone on his side) to invoke the binge drinking culture in any way, but I feel it is OK for those on the victim's side to try and pass on the message that people can't be trusted and getting blackout drunk is a very bad idea under ANY circumstance.
exactly!
it is somewhat insensitive in that if we are to attach personal emotions to this story ... but my comment was a rational one based on an objective look at this story ...
yes, we all get that was your point. but it's not valid.
you are saying she is at least partly at fault for the assault happening. she is not. she should be able to be black out drunk and taken off all of her clothes and start masturbating on a platform and still have every right not to be touched. case closed.
that's not my point ... ughhhh
you originally said she needs to hold herself to account. she did. she acknowledged she drank more than she should have.
she calls it an 'amateur mistake' ... and yes, she does call alcohol a factor in this story ... i just don't think it's acknowledged in a way where we can learn from it ...
i agree, she could do all the things you said and she shouldn't be touched ... but are we to ignore that aspect of the story altogether? ...
no one ignored it. SHE ACKNOWLEDGED IT. what did you want her to do? come out and say "this never would have happened if I hadn't drank?". that would be a fabulous message to send.
i think it would be an important message on responsible drinking ... but how many stories out there involving tragic consequences involve excessive drinking!?? ... too many ...
she clearly needs an editor ... like is spell check not available?
in any case - this story is all too familiar ... i do think what's in pandora's box should be discussed but will never be because it's now considered victim-blaming ... but the reality is that there are a multitude of consequences associated with getting that drunk that would have left her crucified by society but because of what happened - it's not being discussed at all ...
before people get bent out of shape ... i don't condone rape or sexual assault of any kind and this asshole clearly did not get a harsh enough sentence ... it's simply that the victim has to hold herself to account ... saying she drank too much not factoring she didn't have the tolerance of when she was in college is her rationalizing her own role in this ... again - i'm not making excuses for the assailant here nor saying she deserved it ... just asking where she is in acknowledging the fact she got so damn drunk that she couldn't remember a single thing ...
Drinking so much you don't remember shit isn't a felony. Rape is.
i'm not saying it is ...
but if she drinks that much and gets in a car - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and vandalizes a house - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and breaks a leg falling down stairs - no one would have too much sympathy for her ... if any of the above happened - we'd be sitting around discussing how irresponsible she was with her alcohol consumption but we aren't ...
And the thing that all of your examples have in common is that no one else attacked her. If someone had PUSHED her down those stairs, I'm pretty sure people would be after the pusher, not the drunk pushee for standing too close to a flight of stairs while wasted.
exactly...holy shit
um, yeah. polaris, I think you need to rethink your stance on this.
as expected ... don't think anyone gets my point ... oh well ... too much to ask of the train I think ...
I get your point, and it does have some validity, though it is insensitive by very nature. I don't see it as victim blaming, but I'm sure some will. As far as I see it, you aren't calling for anything more than for young people (women particularly) to take this as an example of how important it is for each individual to ensure their own safety by maintaining situational awareness. It is not OK for the attacker (or anyone on his side) to invoke the binge drinking culture in any way, but I feel it is OK for those on the victim's side to try and pass on the message that people can't be trusted and getting blackout drunk is a very bad idea under ANY circumstance.
exactly!
it is somewhat insensitive in that if we are to attach personal emotions to this story ... but my comment was a rational one based on an objective look at this story ...
yes, we all get that was your point. but it's not valid.
you are saying she is at least partly at fault for the assault happening. she is not. she should be able to be black out drunk and taken off all of her clothes and start masturbating on a platform and still have every right not to be touched. case closed.
that's not my point ... ughhhh
you originally said she needs to hold herself to account. she did. she acknowledged she drank more than she should have.
she calls it an 'amateur mistake' ... and yes, she does call alcohol a factor in this story ... i just don't think it's acknowledged in a way where we can learn from it ...
i agree, she could do all the things you said and she shouldn't be touched ... but are we to ignore that aspect of the story altogether? ...
no one ignored it. SHE ACKNOWLEDGED IT. what did you want her to do? come out and say "this never would have happened if I hadn't drank?". that would be a fabulous message to send.
Perhaps that's just the message young women need to hear. In this case it's probably accurate. Would this swimmer have held her down and raped her if she was fighting and screaming? Probably not.
she clearly needs an editor ... like is spell check not available?
in any case - this story is all too familiar ... i do think what's in pandora's box should be discussed but will never be because it's now considered victim-blaming ... but the reality is that there are a multitude of consequences associated with getting that drunk that would have left her crucified by society but because of what happened - it's not being discussed at all ...
before people get bent out of shape ... i don't condone rape or sexual assault of any kind and this asshole clearly did not get a harsh enough sentence ... it's simply that the victim has to hold herself to account ... saying she drank too much not factoring she didn't have the tolerance of when she was in college is her rationalizing her own role in this ... again - i'm not making excuses for the assailant here nor saying she deserved it ... just asking where she is in acknowledging the fact she got so damn drunk that she couldn't remember a single thing ...
Drinking so much you don't remember shit isn't a felony. Rape is.
i'm not saying it is ...
but if she drinks that much and gets in a car - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and vandalizes a house - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and breaks a leg falling down stairs - no one would have too much sympathy for her ... if any of the above happened - we'd be sitting around discussing how irresponsible she was with her alcohol consumption but we aren't ...
And the thing that all of your examples have in common is that no one else attacked her. If someone had PUSHED her down those stairs, I'm pretty sure people would be after the pusher, not the drunk pushee for standing too close to a flight of stairs while wasted.
exactly...holy shit
um, yeah. polaris, I think you need to rethink your stance on this.
as expected ... don't think anyone gets my point ... oh well ... too much to ask of the train I think ...
I get your point, and it does have some validity, though it is insensitive by very nature. I don't see it as victim blaming, but I'm sure some will. As far as I see it, you aren't calling for anything more than for young people (women particularly) to take this as an example of how important it is for each individual to ensure their own safety by maintaining situational awareness. It is not OK for the attacker (or anyone on his side) to invoke the binge drinking culture in any way, but I feel it is OK for those on the victim's side to try and pass on the message that people can't be trusted and getting blackout drunk is a very bad idea under ANY circumstance.
exactly!
it is somewhat insensitive in that if we are to attach personal emotions to this story ... but my comment was a rational one based on an objective look at this story ...
yes, we all get that was your point. but it's not valid.
you are saying she is at least partly at fault for the assault happening. she is not. she should be able to be black out drunk and taken off all of her clothes and start masturbating on a platform and still have every right not to be touched. case closed.
that's not my point ... ughhhh
you originally said she needs to hold herself to account. she did. she acknowledged she drank more than she should have.
she calls it an 'amateur mistake' ... and yes, she does call alcohol a factor in this story ... i just don't think it's acknowledged in a way where we can learn from it ...
i agree, she could do all the things you said and she shouldn't be touched ... but are we to ignore that aspect of the story altogether? ...
no one ignored it. SHE ACKNOWLEDGED IT. what did you want her to do? come out and say "this never would have happened if I hadn't drank?". that would be a fabulous message to send.
Perhaps that's just the message young women need to hear. In this case it's probably accurate. Would this swimmer have held her down and raped her if she was fighting and screaming? Probably not.
Sugar coating reality doesn't help anybody.
and how can you even pretend to think you know what probably would/n't have happened?
taking the blame away from the douchebag and putting it on herself won't help any young girls out there.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
she clearly needs an editor ... like is spell check not available?
in any case - this story is all too familiar ... i do think what's in pandora's box should be discussed but will never be because it's now considered victim-blaming ... but the reality is that there are a multitude of consequences associated with getting that drunk that would have left her crucified by society but because of what happened - it's not being discussed at all ...
before people get bent out of shape ... i don't condone rape or sexual assault of any kind and this asshole clearly did not get a harsh enough sentence ... it's simply that the victim has to hold herself to account ... saying she drank too much not factoring she didn't have the tolerance of when she was in college is her rationalizing her own role in this ... again - i'm not making excuses for the assailant here nor saying she deserved it ... just asking where she is in acknowledging the fact she got so damn drunk that she couldn't remember a single thing ...
Drinking so much you don't remember shit isn't a felony. Rape is.
i'm not saying it is ...
but if she drinks that much and gets in a car - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and vandalizes a house - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and breaks a leg falling down stairs - no one would have too much sympathy for her ... if any of the above happened - we'd be sitting around discussing how irresponsible she was with her alcohol consumption but we aren't ...
And the thing that all of your examples have in common is that no one else attacked her. If someone had PUSHED her down those stairs, I'm pretty sure people would be after the pusher, not the drunk pushee for standing too close to a flight of stairs while wasted.
exactly...holy shit
um, yeah. polaris, I think you need to rethink your stance on this.
as expected ... don't think anyone gets my point ... oh well ... too much to ask of the train I think ...
I get your point, and it does have some validity, though it is insensitive by very nature. I don't see it as victim blaming, but I'm sure some will. As far as I see it, you aren't calling for anything more than for young people (women particularly) to take this as an example of how important it is for each individual to ensure their own safety by maintaining situational awareness. It is not OK for the attacker (or anyone on his side) to invoke the binge drinking culture in any way, but I feel it is OK for those on the victim's side to try and pass on the message that people can't be trusted and getting blackout drunk is a very bad idea under ANY circumstance.
exactly!
it is somewhat insensitive in that if we are to attach personal emotions to this story ... but my comment was a rational one based on an objective look at this story ...
yes, we all get that was your point. but it's not valid.
you are saying she is at least partly at fault for the assault happening. she is not. she should be able to be black out drunk and taken off all of her clothes and start masturbating on a platform and still have every right not to be touched. case closed.
that's not my point ... ughhhh
you originally said she needs to hold herself to account. she did. she acknowledged she drank more than she should have.
she calls it an 'amateur mistake' ... and yes, she does call alcohol a factor in this story ... i just don't think it's acknowledged in a way where we can learn from it ...
i agree, she could do all the things you said and she shouldn't be touched ... but are we to ignore that aspect of the story altogether? ...
no one ignored it. SHE ACKNOWLEDGED IT. what did you want her to do? come out and say "this never would have happened if I hadn't drank?". that would be a fabulous message to send.
Perhaps that's just the message young women need to hear. In this case it's probably accurate. Would this swimmer have held her down and raped her if she was fighting and screaming? Probably not.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
0
F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,384
In my opinion, this isn't about helping other people. This is about one person paying for an act of savagery. Everything doesn't have to be for society. How about stringing this piece of garbage up by his balls like he deserves? People should be outraged that a person who was clearly guilty of a violent sex crime gets 6 months on jail.
she clearly needs an editor ... like is spell check not available?
in any case - this story is all too familiar ... i do think what's in pandora's box should be discussed but will never be because it's now considered victim-blaming ... but the reality is that there are a multitude of consequences associated with getting that drunk that would have left her crucified by society but because of what happened - it's not being discussed at all ...
before people get bent out of shape ... i don't condone rape or sexual assault of any kind and this asshole clearly did not get a harsh enough sentence ... it's simply that the victim has to hold herself to account ... saying she drank too much not factoring she didn't have the tolerance of when she was in college is her rationalizing her own role in this ... again - i'm not making excuses for the assailant here nor saying she deserved it ... just asking where she is in acknowledging the fact she got so damn drunk that she couldn't remember a single thing ...
Drinking so much you don't remember shit isn't a felony. Rape is.
i'm not saying it is ...
but if she drinks that much and gets in a car - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and vandalizes a house - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and breaks a leg falling down stairs - no one would have too much sympathy for her ... if any of the above happened - we'd be sitting around discussing how irresponsible she was with her alcohol consumption but we aren't ...
And the thing that all of your examples have in common is that no one else attacked her. If someone had PUSHED her down those stairs, I'm pretty sure people would be after the pusher, not the drunk pushee for standing too close to a flight of stairs while wasted.
exactly...holy shit
um, yeah. polaris, I think you need to rethink your stance on this.
as expected ... don't think anyone gets my point ... oh well ... too much to ask of the train I think ...
I get your point, and it does have some validity, though it is insensitive by very nature. I don't see it as victim blaming, but I'm sure some will. As far as I see it, you aren't calling for anything more than for young people (women particularly) to take this as an example of how important it is for each individual to ensure their own safety by maintaining situational awareness. It is not OK for the attacker (or anyone on his side) to invoke the binge drinking culture in any way, but I feel it is OK for those on the victim's side to try and pass on the message that people can't be trusted and getting blackout drunk is a very bad idea under ANY circumstance.
for women. therein lies the problem with this message. guys can do what they want (get blind drunk) without consequence, but a woman can't. this message is no different than saying "don't wear a short skirt if you know what's good for you".
That is absolutely ridiculous. Maintaining consciousness so that you can AT LEAST call for help if attacked is not at all the same, and it's absolutely fucking ridiculous to conflate the two. Getting blackout drunk has serious potential consequences for men too, they are just different.
Being a woman is different than being a man, if for no other reason than that all women have something that the scumiest, lowest men are willing to take without permission. If I had a daughter I would consider it a serious failure as a parent to not make her aware that there are predators who will treat her as prey. Basic Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, self-defense weapons, and most important, maintaining awareness are the realities that all women should adopt in this world where human nature is shit.
It isn't about how fair it is that women need to be more careful than men, fair is the place you go for cotton candy. It is reality. That doesn't take the blame away from the scummy, lowlife men who pose a threat to women, and it doesn't place blame on the victim, it simply addresses the reality of life among humans.
yeah, so let's just accept reality the way it is instead of trying to change that reality. you never got so drunk you lost your faculties? we all have. and we all have the right to assume we won't be assaulted.
slippery slopes.
Fuck no I haven't!
You can try to change reality all you want, as long as you are prepared to deal with it as it currently exists. What makes you think the two can't coexist???
Do you leave your wallet on the table when you use the restroom at a restaurant?? Why not? We all have the right to assume we won't be stolen from don't we?
That's not living with reality.
well then you get today's prize.
I never said the two can't coexist. of course it does.
not on purpose. but it's happened. just like this girl. no one intends on getting that blitzed. she made a mistake. she owned up to it. but if I accidentally leave my wallet on the table and it gets stolen, the first person to tell me "well you shouldn't have left it there" gets a poke in the eye.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
she clearly needs an editor ... like is spell check not available?
in any case - this story is all too familiar ... i do think what's in pandora's box should be discussed but will never be because it's now considered victim-blaming ... but the reality is that there are a multitude of consequences associated with getting that drunk that would have left her crucified by society but because of what happened - it's not being discussed at all ...
before people get bent out of shape ... i don't condone rape or sexual assault of any kind and this asshole clearly did not get a harsh enough sentence ... it's simply that the victim has to hold herself to account ... saying she drank too much not factoring she didn't have the tolerance of when she was in college is her rationalizing her own role in this ... again - i'm not making excuses for the assailant here nor saying she deserved it ... just asking where she is in acknowledging the fact she got so damn drunk that she couldn't remember a single thing ...
Drinking so much you don't remember shit isn't a felony. Rape is.
i'm not saying it is ...
but if she drinks that much and gets in a car - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and vandalizes a house - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and breaks a leg falling down stairs - no one would have too much sympathy for her ... if any of the above happened - we'd be sitting around discussing how irresponsible she was with her alcohol consumption but we aren't ...
And the thing that all of your examples have in common is that no one else attacked her. If someone had PUSHED her down those stairs, I'm pretty sure people would be after the pusher, not the drunk pushee for standing too close to a flight of stairs while wasted.
exactly...holy shit
um, yeah. polaris, I think you need to rethink your stance on this.
as expected ... don't think anyone gets my point ... oh well ... too much to ask of the train I think ...
I get your point, and it does have some validity, though it is insensitive by very nature. I don't see it as victim blaming, but I'm sure some will. As far as I see it, you aren't calling for anything more than for young people (women particularly) to take this as an example of how important it is for each individual to ensure their own safety by maintaining situational awareness. It is not OK for the attacker (or anyone on his side) to invoke the binge drinking culture in any way, but I feel it is OK for those on the victim's side to try and pass on the message that people can't be trusted and getting blackout drunk is a very bad idea under ANY circumstance.
exactly!
it is somewhat insensitive in that if we are to attach personal emotions to this story ... but my comment was a rational one based on an objective look at this story ...
yes, we all get that was your point. but it's not valid.
you are saying she is at least partly at fault for the assault happening. she is not. she should be able to be black out drunk and taken off all of her clothes and start masturbating on a platform and still have every right not to be touched. case closed.
that's not my point ... ughhhh
you originally said she needs to hold herself to account. she did. she acknowledged she drank more than she should have.
she calls it an 'amateur mistake' ... and yes, she does call alcohol a factor in this story ... i just don't think it's acknowledged in a way where we can learn from it ...
i agree, she could do all the things you said and she shouldn't be touched ... but are we to ignore that aspect of the story altogether? ...
no one ignored it. SHE ACKNOWLEDGED IT. what did you want her to do? come out and say "this never would have happened if I hadn't drank?". that would be a fabulous message to send.
Perhaps that's just the message young women need to hear. In this case it's probably accurate. Would this swimmer have held her down and raped her if she was fighting and screaming? Probably not.
Sugar coating reality doesn't help anybody.
the narrative says, dont drink or its your fault.
I call bullshit on that.
The narrative is don't get so drunk you can't control your own body or bad things could happen. It isn't about fault or blame, that is a childish game, pointing fingers.
Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
0
F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,384
maybe its time for colleges universities and the greek system to outlaw alcohol in the frats and sororities
Why not the whole world. If there are people out there who cannot drink without assaulting other people than it must be an alcohol problem and not a people problem.
Dude was 20, drinking for him was against the law to start with.
maybe its time for colleges universities and the greek system to outlaw alcohol in the frats and sororities
Why not the whole world. If there are people out there who cannot drink without assaulting other people than it must be an alcohol problem and not a people problem.
Dude was 20, drinking for him was against the law to start with.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
she clearly needs an editor ... like is spell check not available?
in any case - this story is all too familiar ... i do think what's in pandora's box should be discussed but will never be because it's now considered victim-blaming ... but the reality is that there are a multitude of consequences associated with getting that drunk that would have left her crucified by society but because of what happened - it's not being discussed at all ...
before people get bent out of shape ... i don't condone rape or sexual assault of any kind and this asshole clearly did not get a harsh enough sentence ... it's simply that the victim has to hold herself to account ... saying she drank too much not factoring she didn't have the tolerance of when she was in college is her rationalizing her own role in this ... again - i'm not making excuses for the assailant here nor saying she deserved it ... just asking where she is in acknowledging the fact she got so damn drunk that she couldn't remember a single thing ...
Drinking so much you don't remember shit isn't a felony. Rape is.
i'm not saying it is ...
but if she drinks that much and gets in a car - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and vandalizes a house - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and breaks a leg falling down stairs - no one would have too much sympathy for her ... if any of the above happened - we'd be sitting around discussing how irresponsible she was with her alcohol consumption but we aren't ...
And the thing that all of your examples have in common is that no one else attacked her. If someone had PUSHED her down those stairs, I'm pretty sure people would be after the pusher, not the drunk pushee for standing too close to a flight of stairs while wasted.
exactly...holy shit
um, yeah. polaris, I think you need to rethink your stance on this.
as expected ... don't think anyone gets my point ... oh well ... too much to ask of the train I think ...
I get your point, and it does have some validity, though it is insensitive by very nature. I don't see it as victim blaming, but I'm sure some will. As far as I see it, you aren't calling for anything more than for young people (women particularly) to take this as an example of how important it is for each individual to ensure their own safety by maintaining situational awareness. It is not OK for the attacker (or anyone on his side) to invoke the binge drinking culture in any way, but I feel it is OK for those on the victim's side to try and pass on the message that people can't be trusted and getting blackout drunk is a very bad idea under ANY circumstance.
for women. therein lies the problem with this message. guys can do what they want (get blind drunk) without consequence, but a woman can't. this message is no different than saying "don't wear a short skirt if you know what's good for you".
That is absolutely ridiculous. Maintaining consciousness so that you can AT LEAST call for help if attacked is not at all the same, and it's absolutely fucking ridiculous to conflate the two. Getting blackout drunk has serious potential consequences for men too, they are just different.
Being a woman is different than being a man, if for no other reason than that all women have something that the scumiest, lowest men are willing to take without permission. If I had a daughter I would consider it a serious failure as a parent to not make her aware that there are predators who will treat her as prey. Basic Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, self-defense weapons, and most important, maintaining awareness are the realities that all women should adopt in this world where human nature is shit.
It isn't about how fair it is that women need to be more careful than men, fair is the place you go for cotton candy. It is reality. That doesn't take the blame away from the scummy, lowlife men who pose a threat to women, and it doesn't place blame on the victim, it simply addresses the reality of life among humans.
yeah, so let's just accept reality the way it is instead of trying to change that reality. you never got so drunk you lost your faculties? we all have. and we all have the right to assume we won't be assaulted.
slippery slopes.
Fuck no I haven't!
You can try to change reality all you want, as long as you are prepared to deal with it as it currently exists. What makes you think the two can't coexist???
Do you leave your wallet on the table when you use the restroom at a restaurant?? Why not? We all have the right to assume we won't be stolen from don't we?
That's not living with reality.
well then you get today's prize.
I never said the two can't coexist. of course it does.
not on purpose. but it's happened. just like this girl. no one intends on getting that blitzed. she made a mistake. she owned up to it. but if I accidentally leave my wallet on the table and it gets stolen, the first person to tell me "well you shouldn't have left it there" gets a poke in the eye.
Hahaha yeah but only because you know they are right! I agree we all make mistakes, but that doesn't stop us from reminding our children what's a good idea and what's a bad idea.
In my opinion, this isn't about helping other people. This is about one person paying for an act of savagery. Everything doesn't have to be for society. How about stringing this piece of garbage up by his balls like he deserves? People should be outraged that a person who was clearly guilty of a violent sex crime gets 6 months on jail.
That's just the turn the thread took, it happens. String him up was already covered lol
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
she clearly needs an editor ... like is spell check not available?
in any case - this story is all too familiar ... i do think what's in pandora's box should be discussed but will never be because it's now considered victim-blaming ... but the reality is that there are a multitude of consequences associated with getting that drunk that would have left her crucified by society but because of what happened - it's not being discussed at all ...
before people get bent out of shape ... i don't condone rape or sexual assault of any kind and this asshole clearly did not get a harsh enough sentence ... it's simply that the victim has to hold herself to account ... saying she drank too much not factoring she didn't have the tolerance of when she was in college is her rationalizing her own role in this ... again - i'm not making excuses for the assailant here nor saying she deserved it ... just asking where she is in acknowledging the fact she got so damn drunk that she couldn't remember a single thing ...
Drinking so much you don't remember shit isn't a felony. Rape is.
i'm not saying it is ...
but if she drinks that much and gets in a car - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and vandalizes a house - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and breaks a leg falling down stairs - no one would have too much sympathy for her ... if any of the above happened - we'd be sitting around discussing how irresponsible she was with her alcohol consumption but we aren't ...
And the thing that all of your examples have in common is that no one else attacked her. If someone had PUSHED her down those stairs, I'm pretty sure people would be after the pusher, not the drunk pushee for standing too close to a flight of stairs while wasted.
exactly...holy shit
um, yeah. polaris, I think you need to rethink your stance on this.
as expected ... don't think anyone gets my point ... oh well ... too much to ask of the train I think ...
I get your point, and it does have some validity, though it is insensitive by very nature. I don't see it as victim blaming, but I'm sure some will. As far as I see it, you aren't calling for anything more than for young people (women particularly) to take this as an example of how important it is for each individual to ensure their own safety by maintaining situational awareness. It is not OK for the attacker (or anyone on his side) to invoke the binge drinking culture in any way, but I feel it is OK for those on the victim's side to try and pass on the message that people can't be trusted and getting blackout drunk is a very bad idea under ANY circumstance.
exactly!
it is somewhat insensitive in that if we are to attach personal emotions to this story ... but my comment was a rational one based on an objective look at this story ...
yes, we all get that was your point. but it's not valid.
you are saying she is at least partly at fault for the assault happening. she is not. she should be able to be black out drunk and taken off all of her clothes and start masturbating on a platform and still have every right not to be touched. case closed.
that's not my point ... ughhhh
you originally said she needs to hold herself to account. she did. she acknowledged she drank more than she should have.
she calls it an 'amateur mistake' ... and yes, she does call alcohol a factor in this story ... i just don't think it's acknowledged in a way where we can learn from it ...
i agree, she could do all the things you said and she shouldn't be touched ... but are we to ignore that aspect of the story altogether? ...
no one ignored it. SHE ACKNOWLEDGED IT. what did you want her to do? come out and say "this never would have happened if I hadn't drank?". that would be a fabulous message to send.
Perhaps that's just the message young women need to hear. In this case it's probably accurate. Would this swimmer have held her down and raped her if she was fighting and screaming? Probably not.
Sugar coating reality doesn't help anybody.
the narrative says, dont drink or its your fault.
I call bullshit on that.
The narrative is don't get so drunk you can't control your own body or bad things could happen. It isn't about fault or blame, that is a childish game, pointing fingers.
po-tay-to, po-tah-to.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
0
F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,384
maybe its time for colleges universities and the greek system to outlaw alcohol in the frats and sororities
Why not the whole world. If there are people out there who cannot drink without assaulting other people than it must be an alcohol problem and not a people problem.
Dude was 20, drinking for him was against the law to start with.
true. so where is the culpabilty for the hosts?
From a University perspective I would think they either kick that Fraternity off campus or ban alcohol altogether. I was in a fraternity at a Pac 12 school as well and that is how they dealt with even minor offenses. Something like this would for sure be a suspension for the house if not just a ban on booze.
she clearly needs an editor ... like is spell check not available?
in any case - this story is all too familiar ... i do think what's in pandora's box should be discussed but will never be because it's now considered victim-blaming ... but the reality is that there are a multitude of consequences associated with getting that drunk that would have left her crucified by society but because of what happened - it's not being discussed at all ...
before people get bent out of shape ... i don't condone rape or sexual assault of any kind and this asshole clearly did not get a harsh enough sentence ... it's simply that the victim has to hold herself to account ... saying she drank too much not factoring she didn't have the tolerance of when she was in college is her rationalizing her own role in this ... again - i'm not making excuses for the assailant here nor saying she deserved it ... just asking where she is in acknowledging the fact she got so damn drunk that she couldn't remember a single thing ...
Drinking so much you don't remember shit isn't a felony. Rape is.
i'm not saying it is ...
but if she drinks that much and gets in a car - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and vandalizes a house - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and breaks a leg falling down stairs - no one would have too much sympathy for her ... if any of the above happened - we'd be sitting around discussing how irresponsible she was with her alcohol consumption but we aren't ...
we are not discussing because what happened to her was the actions of another asshole. your comments are like blaming a driver for being out at 2:30 in the morning and getting hit by a drunk diver 'well you should have known drunks are out at 2:30 am'.
she clearly needs an editor ... like is spell check not available?
in any case - this story is all too familiar ... i do think what's in pandora's box should be discussed but will never be because it's now considered victim-blaming ... but the reality is that there are a multitude of consequences associated with getting that drunk that would have left her crucified by society but because of what happened - it's not being discussed at all ...
before people get bent out of shape ... i don't condone rape or sexual assault of any kind and this asshole clearly did not get a harsh enough sentence ... it's simply that the victim has to hold herself to account ... saying she drank too much not factoring she didn't have the tolerance of when she was in college is her rationalizing her own role in this ... again - i'm not making excuses for the assailant here nor saying she deserved it ... just asking where she is in acknowledging the fact she got so damn drunk that she couldn't remember a single thing ...
Drinking so much you don't remember shit isn't a felony. Rape is.
i'm not saying it is ...
but if she drinks that much and gets in a car - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and vandalizes a house - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and breaks a leg falling down stairs - no one would have too much sympathy for her ... if any of the above happened - we'd be sitting around discussing how irresponsible she was with her alcohol consumption but we aren't ...
And the thing that all of your examples have in common is that no one else attacked her. If someone had PUSHED her down those stairs, I'm pretty sure people would be after the pusher, not the drunk pushee for standing too close to a flight of stairs while wasted.
exactly...holy shit
um, yeah. polaris, I think you need to rethink your stance on this.
as expected ... don't think anyone gets my point ... oh well ... too much to ask of the train I think ...
I get your point, and it does have some validity, though it is insensitive by very nature. I don't see it as victim blaming, but I'm sure some will. As far as I see it, you aren't calling for anything more than for young people (women particularly) to take this as an example of how important it is for each individual to ensure their own safety by maintaining situational awareness. It is not OK for the attacker (or anyone on his side) to invoke the binge drinking culture in any way, but I feel it is OK for those on the victim's side to try and pass on the message that people can't be trusted and getting blackout drunk is a very bad idea under ANY circumstance.
for women. therein lies the problem with this message. guys can do what they want (get blind drunk) without consequence, but a woman can't. this message is no different than saying "don't wear a short skirt if you know what's good for you".
That is absolutely ridiculous. Maintaining consciousness so that you can AT LEAST call for help if attacked is not at all the same, and it's absolutely fucking ridiculous to conflate the two. Getting blackout drunk has serious potential consequences for men too, they are just different.
Being a woman is different than being a man, if for no other reason than that all women have something that the scumiest, lowest men are willing to take without permission. If I had a daughter I would consider it a serious failure as a parent to not make her aware that there are predators who will treat her as prey. Basic Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, self-defense weapons, and most important, maintaining awareness are the realities that all women should adopt in this world where human nature is shit.
It isn't about how fair it is that women need to be more careful than men, fair is the place you go for cotton candy. It is reality. That doesn't take the blame away from the scummy, lowlife men who pose a threat to women, and it doesn't place blame on the victim, it simply addresses the reality of life among humans.
did you happen to read her letter? one of the points she makes about the guy is he was looking for something to happen that night. and yes she would not have been raped had she not gotten drunk, but this asshole was most likely going to do something to a different girl that night if not her.
edit: and your posts and this page of this thread has proven the point of why women find it hard to report sexual assaults, because eventually the narrative gets put on them instead of the asshole who perpetrated a violent crime.
In my opinion, this isn't about helping other people. This is about one person paying for an act of savagery. Everything doesn't have to be for society. How about stringing this piece of garbage up by his balls like he deserves? People should be outraged that a person who was clearly guilty of a violent sex crime gets 6 months on jail.
Thank you.
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g under p
Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,199
In my opinion, this isn't about helping other people. This is about one person paying for an act of savagery. Everything doesn't have to be for society. How about stringing this piece of garbage up by his balls like he deserves? People should be outraged that a person who was clearly guilty of a violent sex crime gets 6 months on jail.
Thank you.
After reading through her letter and this case it appears it's doubtful he will fully serve the entire appalling 6 month sentence. For this guy bring back the days of public whippings.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
she clearly needs an editor ... like is spell check not available?
in any case - this story is all too familiar ... i do think what's in pandora's box should be discussed but will never be because it's now considered victim-blaming ... but the reality is that there are a multitude of consequences associated with getting that drunk that would have left her crucified by society but because of what happened - it's not being discussed at all ...
before people get bent out of shape ... i don't condone rape or sexual assault of any kind and this asshole clearly did not get a harsh enough sentence ... it's simply that the victim has to hold herself to account ... saying she drank too much not factoring she didn't have the tolerance of when she was in college is her rationalizing her own role in this ... again - i'm not making excuses for the assailant here nor saying she deserved it ... just asking where she is in acknowledging the fact she got so damn drunk that she couldn't remember a single thing ...
Drinking so much you don't remember shit isn't a felony. Rape is.
i'm not saying it is ...
but if she drinks that much and gets in a car - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and vandalizes a house - she'd be crucified; if she drinks that much and breaks a leg falling down stairs - no one would have too much sympathy for her ... if any of the above happened - we'd be sitting around discussing how irresponsible she was with her alcohol consumption but we aren't ...
And the thing that all of your examples have in common is that no one else attacked her. If someone had PUSHED her down those stairs, I'm pretty sure people would be after the pusher, not the drunk pushee for standing too close to a flight of stairs while wasted.
exactly...holy shit
um, yeah. polaris, I think you need to rethink your stance on this.
as expected ... don't think anyone gets my point ... oh well ... too much to ask of the train I think ...
Well all see what you're trying to do. Sure, the broad shouldn't have gotten drunk. But she did. It happens. Doesn't mean she got what was coming to her.
will myself to find a home, a home within myself we will find a way, we will find our place
Banning alcohol won't work - my husband's fraternity was shut down a couple years ago because of alcohol abuse (he was in college years ago - and drank a lot, btw). And that was at Stanford.
My daughter just finished her freshman year in college and they had a big orientation speech about no no no to alcohol and drugs and of course they were available at parties she went to. I've tried to teach her to be sensible, but what else can you do?
Banning alcohol won't work - my husband's fraternity was shut down a couple years ago because of alcohol abuse (he was in college years ago - and drank a lot, btw). And that was at Stanford.
My daughter just finished her freshman year in college and they had a big orientation speech about no no no to alcohol and drugs and of course they were available at parties she went to. I've tried to teach her to be sensible, but what else can you do?
hope she sees the value in what you've tried to teach.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Comments
you are saying she is at least partly at fault for the assault happening. she is not. she should be able to be black out drunk and taken off all of her clothes and start masturbating on a platform and still have every right not to be touched. case closed.
-EV 8/14/93
-EV 8/14/93
i agree, she could do all the things you said and she shouldn't be touched ... but are we to ignore that aspect of the story altogether? ...
Being a woman is different than being a man, if for no other reason than that all women have something that the scumiest, lowest men are willing to take without permission. If I had a daughter I would consider it a serious failure as a parent to not make her aware that there are predators who will treat her as prey. Basic Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, self-defense weapons, and most important, maintaining awareness are the realities that all women should adopt in this world where human nature is shit.
It isn't about how fair it is that women need to be more careful than men, fair is the place you go for cotton candy. It is reality.
That doesn't take the blame away from the scummy, lowlife men who pose a threat to women, and it doesn't place blame on the victim, it simply addresses the reality of life among humans.
you never got so drunk you lost your faculties? we all have. and we all have the right to assume we won't be assaulted.
slippery slopes.
-EV 8/14/93
-EV 8/14/93
You can try to change reality all you want, as long as you are prepared to deal with it as it currently exists.
What makes you think the two can't coexist???
Do you leave your wallet on the table when you use the restroom at a restaurant??
Why not? We all have the right to assume we won't be stolen from don't we?
That's not living with reality.
In this case it's probably accurate. Would this swimmer have held her down and raped her if she was fighting and screaming? Probably not.
Sugar coating reality doesn't help anybody.
taking the blame away from the douchebag and putting it on herself won't help any young girls out there.
-EV 8/14/93
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I never said the two can't coexist. of course it does.
not on purpose. but it's happened. just like this girl. no one intends on getting that blitzed. she made a mistake. she owned up to it. but if I accidentally leave my wallet on the table and it gets stolen, the first person to tell me "well you shouldn't have left it there" gets a poke in the eye.
-EV 8/14/93
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
-EV 8/14/93
The narrative is don't get so drunk you can't control your own body or bad things could happen. It isn't about fault or blame, that is a childish game, pointing fingers.
Dude was 20, drinking for him was against the law to start with.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I agree we all make mistakes, but that doesn't stop us from reminding our children what's a good idea and what's a bad idea.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
-EV 8/14/93
edit: and your posts and this page of this thread has proven the point of why women find it hard to report sexual assaults, because eventually the narrative gets put on them instead of the asshole who perpetrated a violent crime.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
we will find a way, we will find our place
My daughter just finished her freshman year in college and they had a big orientation speech about no no no to alcohol and drugs and of course they were available at parties she went to. I've tried to teach her to be sensible, but what else can you do?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14