Our Fate Lies With Americans

polaris_x

This is the World's reality now. We live in a globalized society that continues to exploit the poor through economic imperialistic measures. The results are global warming; extreme poverty; mass displacement; refugees; terrorism; war and suffering. Peace is a funny thing - it's a nice little term we all say we want but in reality our actions speak otherwise. You want peace? Do you really? If so, you shouldn't be buying gas from Exxon; diamonds for your weddings; bottled water from Nestle; GM food from industrialized farming operations; etc...

All the problems that we face globally are the results of greed and our own selfishness. We all know this but we want our electronics and cheap goods and so we disassociate and focus on what They throw out there for us to use.

The violence, the suffering and the disparity is only going to get worse. Our only real hope for a future that isn't already written in stone lies with Americans. Although all Western Nations are complicit in this outcome - there really is only one country that could make a difference and that is the US of A.

If Americans forced their governments to:
* Stop their blind support of the Israeli Apartheid regime.
* Stopped enacting a foreign policy that is in the interest of large multinational corporations.
* Used their military might to maintain peace in the Middle East.
* Cut their greenhouse gas emissions to a meaningful amount (technology already exists).
* Spent a portion of tax dollars on helping to create a global ecomony that is fair and just.

We would have a different world ... it would not be a Utopia of non-violence and Disney movies. But it would be a world where we treat life with respect.

This can only be done by Americans because it is America that stands alone with Israel; that has engaged in an illegal war in Iraq; that is responsible for the 2nd most emissions (should note that although China has the most - it's per capita emission rate is far less than the US).

Unless Americans force this change as a supposed democracy. We can only expect more of the same.

brianlux

I would say other first world countries a role in this as well, polaris_x but I certainly agree that because we in the US are the biggest per capita consumer of resources, the change should start with us. I honestly think my wife and I are far less consumptive that the average American but can I be proud of this as I sit here at my desk on a computer with the heat going so I will be comfortable? No, I'm always aware of the need to become better at conservation.

rgambs

I have a deplorably low amount of hope for the world. It's sad.
The greatest hope I have is that my boy can grow up in a world with little enough suffering to allow him to have his feet in the grass, his hands in the dirt, and his head in the clouds.
I don't have the capacity to hope for much more than a continuation of relative comfort for another generation lol
It isn't the size of the problem that kills me, it's the size of the solution.

jeffbr

polaris_x said:

If Americans forced their governments to:
* Stop their blind support of the Israeli Apartheid regime.
* Stopped enacting a foreign policy that is in the interest of large multinational corporations.
* Used their military might to maintain peace in the Middle East.
* Cut their greenhouse gas emissions to a meaningful amount (technology already exists).
* Spent a portion of tax dollars on helping to create a global ecomony that is fair and just.

Unless Americans force this change as a supposed democracy. We can only expect more of the same.

I'm with you on 1, 2 and 4. Point 3 has only caused us and the Middle East suffering. If we took care of point 1, became a neutral party, let the Middle East sort themselves out (and I frankly don't give two shits how), we could then enter into mutually beneficial trade agreements with whomever has resources we want to trade for resources they need. Point 5 sounds great, but should and will be a secondary concern. Given finite resources, we need to take care of ourselves first. We have enough problems to worry about at home. Fix those, and then we can look outside our borders.

And you highlighted the real issue in your last sentence. "Supposed" sounds about right to me. We look like a democracy, we go through the motions as if we were, but I know I have no real ability to affect change nationally. I vote, I used to be very active locally for decades until I realized that we really are at the mercy of the machine. Small changes can happen at the local level. No change happens at the national level stemming from the will of the people. All national change happens at the pleasure of the ruling elite based on the tithes given from banks, pharma, defense contractors, etc... We don't have a democracy. We are a democratic republic, but the "democratic" part is more of a charade to keep us complacent and make us feel like we can actually do something. Our "representatives" don't really represent me or any of you. They have bigger interests to take care of - interests that provide them wealth and power. I've voted in 9 presidential elections, and have yet to see a slate of qualified, quality candidates to chose from. I'll be voting in my 10th presidential election next year, and for the 10th time will have to choose the least bad option or "throw away" my vote to a third party candidate as a way of making a statement (that will largely go unheard). Shit, when did I get old and curmudgeonly?

PJ_Soul

brianlux said:

I would say other first world countries a role in this as well, polaris_x but I certainly agree that because we in the US are the biggest per capita consumer of resources, the change should start with us. I honestly think my wife and I are far less consumptive that the average American but can I be proud of this as I sit here at my desk on a computer with the heat going so I will be comfortable? No, I'm always aware of the need to become better at conservation.

But remember that conservation doesn't mean deprivation Brian. We have the technology to be comfortable and to have extraordinary access to information. There is no reason you should be deprived, and be put at a disadvantage, just because some fucks who don't want the alternative energy and environmental technology industries to develop are making conservation impossible in many ways. You do what you can in a world where the most powerful are purposefully putting up roadblocks to responsible consumption. You need to do what you can in the face of that, but it is not your responsibility to live in total deprivation because of those assholes.

jeffbr

rgambs said:

I have a deplorably low amount of hope for the world. It's sad.
The greatest hope I have is that my boy can grow up in a world with little enough suffering to allow him to have his feet in the grass, his hands in the dirt, and his head in the clouds.
I don't have the capacity to hope for much more than a continuation of relative comfort for another generation lol
It isn't the size of the problem that kills me, it's the size of the solution.

Shit, Gambs. You summed it up beautifully. A little sad and depressing, but ultimately, this has been my motivation as well.

PJ_Soul

I am so disappointed with how the world is going I am specifically glad that I don't have kids, and have no wish to have any because, in part, I don't want to raise them in these times and subject more people to the way things are going. It's terrible that that is a factor for me. But kudos to those who did have kids... maybe they can be a part of positive change in the future.
That said, I can still see beauty and kindness in the world.... it just doesn't seem like enough, does it?

HughFreakingDillon

I honestly sometimes feel guilty about having kids. I love them to pieces. But sometimes I think "what did I do to them, bringing them into this world of suffering and pain and eventual destruction?". All I can hope for is, as someone said above, that it doesn't go to pot while they are around.

pjhawks

yea every world problem is the fault of us in America. dear lord

PJ_Soul

pjhawks said:

yea every world problem is the fault of us in America. dear lord

Yeah, I definitely don't agree with that. But it sure does have a large role.

polaris_x

if you read my post - it already says that all Western nations are complicit ... how sad and predictable that some people choose to disassociate based on the lowest hanging fruit ... it's undeniable the role the US has on these outcomes ... there is no ISIS if the US doesn't invade Iraq ...

in any case - although I know that it seems hopeless however, the means by which this change can happen is actually quite simple and the most powerful ... really voting in the US is the last thing that needs to happen ... the easiest way to foster change is with your dollars ... if you choose to partake in a fair and just economy ... the machine crumbles ...

Drowned Out

It would be helpful if the other well-off countries took a stand against the US instead of constantly taking part out of self-interest. Canada can't absolve itself from any US actions because it is very rare we split paths with them on any issue, and if we do, it is surface dressing that is watered down to avoid economic impacts. If the US's allies disbanded NATO and stood up to the US we could enforce change. The problem with capitalism is the concentration of wealth.....spreading it out from the 1% would help, but wouldn't solve the world's problems....I think we would need to see a reduction of quality of living (at least as quality of life pertains to the purchase of non-essential goods) in the west in order to see equality in the developing world, and I don't see the will to accept that in the west. So the status quo remains - the developing world does what they can to resist and take what they need...we blame them and continue the cycle.

HughFreakingDillon

pjhawks said:

yea every world problem is the fault of us in America. dear lord

I didn't get that from the OP at all. I took from it that the only way to fix the world is for the US to lead the way, not because it is necessarily all America's fault, but because America holds the biggest global influence.

mickeyrat

dont mean to be an ass here, but good luck with that. individually this country is far to selfish. Collectively?

PJPOWER

HughFreakingDillon said:

I honestly sometimes feel guilty about having kids. I love them to pieces. But sometimes I think "what did I do to them, bringing them into this world of suffering and pain and eventual destruction?". All I can hope for is, as someone said above, that it doesn't go to pot while they are around.

Don't feel guilty, just raise your children with intent on making the world a better place. If all good people stop having and teaching their children, then what hope does mankind have? There has never been a perfect world void of suffering, whether it was during the bubonic pleague or World Wars. Every generation has struggles and positive contributions. Hope is that the latter will prevail, and raising educated children with positive ethics and values is one of our only means.

pjhawks

if America pulled back militarily from the rest of the world the world would be a much unsafer place. our power is a deterrent.

if American's pulled back economically from every other country in the world the world's economy would collapse and those countries would be in far worse shape then they are now.

as many problems as we cause the world depends on us on a daily basis. Funny how almost every country shits on us...until something bad happens then they come crawling for our help (and if we don't help we get shit on).

josevolution

HughFreakingDillon said:

I honestly sometimes feel guilty about having kids. I love them to pieces. But sometimes I think "what did I do to them, bringing them into this world of suffering and pain and eventual destruction?". All I can hope for is, as someone said above, that it doesn't go to pot while they are around.

I feel exactly the same way would do anything for my two kids but man I think to myself what have I done ....

Jason P

Lovely time to take a walk in Beijing this past week ...

HughFreakingDillon

pjhawks said:

if America pulled back militarily from the rest of the world the world would be a much unsafer place. our power is a deterrent.

if American's pulled back economically from every other country in the world the world's economy would collapse and those countries would be in far worse shape then they are now.

as many problems as we cause the world depends on us on a daily basis. Funny how almost every country shits on us...until something bad happens then they come crawling for our help (and if we don't help we get shit on).

this is a very simplistic view and not at all accurate. the same could be said about many of the other major economic and military powers of the world. and how the US abuses its power is the problem. many times, no one asks for the help of the US. they just barge in and start killing everybody, not just the "bad guys". how many iraqi civilians died at the hands of their supposed saviors? and the US only seem to help when they have vested interest in the area's resources. how many times has the US bombed or sent thousands of troops into africa to overthrow a genocidal maniac? the US has financed/trained/supplied how many of the world's biggest threats now, because at the time it was in their interest to do so?

PJfanwillneverleave1

josevolution said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I honestly sometimes feel guilty about having kids. I love them to pieces. But sometimes I think "what did I do to them, bringing them into this world of suffering and pain and eventual destruction?". All I can hope for is, as someone said above, that it doesn't go to pot while they are around.

I feel exactly the same way would do anything for my two kids but man I think to myself what have I done ....

Do you two actually have that bleak of an attitude?
Jeesh
Life - you guys wanted to give it to others. The world is not that bad.
Breathe, exhale, repeat - the world is not ending
Your kids will be fine.
Pretty dark to think that you may have made a mistake bringing people into the world. We are but a speck of dust on this earth.

callen

rgambs said:

I have a deplorably low amount of hope for the world. It's sad.
The greatest hope I have is that my boy can grow up in a world with little enough suffering to allow him to have his feet in the grass, his hands in the dirt, and his head in the clouds.
I don't have the capacity to hope for much more than a continuation of relative comfort for another generation lol
It isn't the size of the problem that kills me, it's the size of the solution.

Gambs may be time to take wife kid and pups for a walk in the woods. Turn off electronics and absorb some Mother Nature.

callen

Oh Jason your still the master of bringing perfect visuals with your points.

pjhawks

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

if America pulled back militarily from the rest of the world the world would be a much unsafer place. our power is a deterrent.

if American's pulled back economically from every other country in the world the world's economy would collapse and those countries would be in far worse shape then they are now.

as many problems as we cause the world depends on us on a daily basis. Funny how almost every country shits on us...until something bad happens then they come crawling for our help (and if we don't help we get shit on).

this is a very simplistic view and not at all accurate. the same could be said about many of the other major economic and military powers of the world. and how the US abuses its power is the problem. many times, no one asks for the help of the US. they just barge in and start killing everybody, not just the "bad guys". how many iraqi civilians died at the hands of their supposed saviors? and the US only seem to help when they have vested interest in the area's resources. how many times has the US bombed or sent thousands of troops into africa to overthrow a genocidal maniac? the US has financed/trained/supplied how many of the world's biggest threats now, because at the time it was in their interest to do so?

so basically damned if we do (iraq) and damned if we don't (africa). we can't win with some of you people. no matter what actions or non-actions someone always has a complaint. talk about simplistic view. should we have just let the Russians take over Afghanistan in the 1980s? and then let them ove on to other countries? should we have allowed Saddam to continue in power? i guess we should have but then we would be criticized for letting an evil dictator stay in power. damned if we do, damned if we don't.

polaris_x

Jason P said:

Lovely time to take a walk in Beijing this past week ...

emissions per capita by chinese like a third of americans ... also factor in that the US is China's largest trading partner ... your picture is the outcome of walmart, apple, etc...

polaris_x

pjhawks said:

if America pulled back militarily from the rest of the world the world would be a much unsafer place. our power is a deterrent.

if American's pulled back economically from every other country in the world the world's economy would collapse and those countries would be in far worse shape then they are now.

as many problems as we cause the world depends on us on a daily basis. Funny how almost every country shits on us...until something bad happens then they come crawling for our help (and if we don't help we get shit on).

this is simply false ... how anyone can believe this stuff is sad ...

pjhawks

polaris_x said:

pjhawks said:

if America pulled back militarily from the rest of the world the world would be a much unsafer place. our power is a deterrent.

if American's pulled back economically from every other country in the world the world's economy would collapse and those countries would be in far worse shape then they are now.

as many problems as we cause the world depends on us on a daily basis. Funny how almost every country shits on us...until something bad happens then they come crawling for our help (and if we don't help we get shit on).

this is simply false ... how anyone can believe this stuff is sad ...

funny coming from the guy who thinks we can achieve world peace by not buying gas at Exxon, or water from Nestle. yup that is what the world needs.

bootlegger10

While I understand the comments about not having kids, is it really worse than the dark ages? What happened to the Incan empire,Mayan empire, Aztec empire, Roman Empire, etc....? There has always been war, famine, political strife, abuse of women and children, natural disasters, etc... Certainly it is crazier now with the type of weapons held, but we are still less likely to be killed in a terrorist attack than by a lightning bolt and no one is not having kids because of lightning bolts. The thing that scares me the most about the future is technology and its impact on the power of government and companies, as well as on privacy and employment. I don't want to be around when babies are manufactured.

Hopefully none of us ready to put our heads in a gas oven, so it can't be that bad.

callen

polaris_x said:

pjhawks said:

if America pulled back militarily from the rest of the world the world would be a much unsafer place. our power is a deterrent.

if American's pulled back economically from every other country in the world the world's economy would collapse and those countries would be in far worse shape then they are now.

as many problems as we cause the world depends on us on a daily basis. Funny how almost every country shits on us...until something bad happens then they come crawling for our help (and if we don't help we get shit on).

this is simply false ... how anyone can believe this stuff is sad ...

USA USA USA. Pledge of allegiance said daily by us kids. That's how it becomes believable.

You have great points and Americans are wasteful selfish fks but so are all humans. Think folks in Africa wouldn't suck up resources as do Americans if they had them? We just had great resources and for a time really cheap labor.

In Europe people have small efficient cars. When we have expats come here they buy big ass trucks and sports sedans with V8's.

Agree wholeheartedly that we meddle way too much and big contributor to the worlds messed.

Great thread and kudos for stating your opinion on this US dominated board.

callen

pjhawks said:

polaris_x said:

pjhawks said:

if America pulled back militarily from the rest of the world the world would be a much unsafer place. our power is a deterrent.

if American's pulled back economically from every other country in the world the world's economy would collapse and those countries would be in far worse shape then they are now.

as many problems as we cause the world depends on us on a daily basis. Funny how almost every country shits on us...until something bad happens then they come crawling for our help (and if we don't help we get shit on).

this is simply false ... how anyone can believe this stuff is sad ...

funny coming from the guy who thinks we can achieve world peace by not buying gas at Exxon, or water from Nestle. yup that is what the world needs.

Don't recall any posts from anyone claiming world peace solved by boycotting Exxon. Can you provide link.

HughFreakingDillon

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjhawks said:

if America pulled back militarily from the rest of the world the world would be a much unsafer place. our power is a deterrent.

if American's pulled back economically from every other country in the world the world's economy would collapse and those countries would be in far worse shape then they are now.

as many problems as we cause the world depends on us on a daily basis. Funny how almost every country shits on us...until something bad happens then they come crawling for our help (and if we don't help we get shit on).

this is a very simplistic view and not at all accurate. the same could be said about many of the other major economic and military powers of the world. and how the US abuses its power is the problem. many times, no one asks for the help of the US. they just barge in and start killing everybody, not just the "bad guys". how many iraqi civilians died at the hands of their supposed saviors? and the US only seem to help when they have vested interest in the area's resources. how many times has the US bombed or sent thousands of troops into africa to overthrow a genocidal maniac? the US has financed/trained/supplied how many of the world's biggest threats now, because at the time it was in their interest to do so?

so basically damned if we do (iraq) and damned if we don't (africa). we can't win with some of you people. no matter what actions or non-actions someone always has a complaint. talk about simplistic view. should we have just let the Russians take over Afghanistan in the 1980s? and then let them ove on to other countries? should we have allowed Saddam to continue in power? i guess we should have but then we would be criticized for letting an evil dictator stay in power. damned if we do, damned if we don't.

actually, that is wrong. I'm not saying the US are obligated to go into africa. I'm saying that some americans seem to believe going into iraq was heroic: it wasn't. it was US economic self-interest. it had nothing to do with getting rid of a dictator that killed his own people: many other dictactors do that with zero american interference. ask yourself why.

don't finance and arm rebels.

don't go into anywhere unless asked.

the US playing the unappreciated hero is getting a bit tired.

HughFreakingDillon

bootlegger10 said:

While I understand the comments about not having kids, is it really worse than the dark ages? What happened to the Incan empire,Mayan empire, Aztec empire, Roman Empire, etc....? There has always been war, famine, political strife, abuse of women and children, natural disasters, etc... Certainly it is crazier now with the type of weapons held, but we are still less likely to be killed in a terrorist attack than by a lightning bolt and no one is not having kids because of lightning bolts. The thing that scares me the most about the future is technology and its impact on the power of government and companies, as well as on privacy and employment. I don't want to be around when babies are manufactured.

Hopefully none of us ready to put our heads in a gas oven, so it can't be that bad.

yes, this stuff has been around since the beginning of time. it's just that I'm more aware of it now that I have kids.