Canadian Politics Redux

Parksy

HughFreakingDillon said:

Trudeau announces 3 year pause on carbon tax on home heating oil

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2pyWIDGvB8

"How much of this is policy versus politics?"  LOL ..   With Trudeau.. EVERYTHING is politics. And with Pierre... EVERYTHING is politics. 

Parksy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nat2-HmvTkQ  

I wish I could enjoy some of that "incredible freedom."   LOL 

Zod

Isn't the goal of the carbon tax to create financial incentives to use alternatives.  Don't really get the heating oil exemption, as it's probably the most polluting method one can use to heat a home? (Actually, i'm not sure if burning wood creates more pollution).   Sort of kinds to poke holes in the carbon tax if you start exempting things.

1ThoughtKnown

Zod said:

Isn't the goal of the carbon tax to create financial incentives to use alternatives.  Don't really get the heating oil exemption, as it's probably the most polluting method one can use to heat a home? (Actually, i'm not sure if burning wood creates more pollution).   Sort of kinds to poke holes in the carbon tax if you start exempting things.

Yahtzee! 

Parksy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz2jLunKKfc

Not so much a chirp towards Pierre.. but hopefully a gateway to polite discussion. 

Two things about this speech stand as a means for me for like this man less. 

1) His stance on wanting Canada to be the 'free-est' nation on the planet. Whereby, according to him, people can protest and express themselves about any opinion they want. "They can state any opinion they choose." - Pierre Polievre 

He's drawing a fairly hard line here and I completely disagree with him. He sounds exactly like Jordan Peterson... to whom I also disagree with.  The idea of having carte blanche free speech and the freedom to express or exhibit whatever you want flies in the face of what I understand to be hate speech.  To avoid misunderstanding here... let's use the example of Rye bread.  If Rye bread is a part of society, and it is a protected bread in our laws... Protected against hate, violence, and discrimination etc..... then I'm not sure you should be allowed to express your undying hatred of Rye bread. For example; based on what Pierre is saying...  which is a blanket statement and COULD BE TOTALLY MISINTERPRETED BY CERTAIN PEOPLE ... he is suggesting that as PM, you would be able to go to any public space, say whatever you want in protest. "I HATE RYE BREAD"  "DEATH TO RYE BREAD"  "RYE BREAD WILL NOT REPLACE US."   You get the idea. 

To me, I understand the desire for free speech, but I also understand the need to censor speech as well. I believe the pen is mightier than the sword, and I also believe that Hitler didn't murder 6 million Jewish people all by himself. I draw a direct line between speech that fuels hatred that leads to violence and persecution which is why we have laws that censor speech  and define hate speech.  

2) From what I can tell.... I'm not sure you can say as a political leader that you're against Hamas, for Israel, and support Palestinian people suggesting that Canada should do everything in it's power to protect said "precious" Palestinian civilians.  He's basically tip toeing around everything and just saying what he hopes will be the most popular thing to say.  I imagine Trudeau is saying the exact same crap, so please understand that I'm painting most politicians with the same brush here, but based solely on this speech I can't help but see the same political bullshit from a guy who is promising not to be a political bullshitter. 

DarthMaeglin

Parksy said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz2jLunKKfc

Not so much a chirp towards Pierre.. but hopefully a gateway to polite discussion. 

Two things about this speech stand as a means for me for like this man less. 

1) His stance on wanting Canada to be the 'free-est' nation on the planet. Whereby, according to him, people can protest and express themselves about any opinion they want. "They can state any opinion they choose." - Pierre Polievre 

He's drawing a fairly hard line here and I completely disagree with him. He sounds exactly like Jordan Peterson... to whom I also disagree with.  The idea of having carte blanche free speech and the freedom to express or exhibit whatever you want flies in the face of what I understand to be hate speech.  To avoid misunderstanding here... let's use the example of Rye bread.  If Rye bread is a part of society, and it is a protected bread in our laws... Protected against hate, violence, and discrimination etc..... then I'm not sure you should be allowed to express your undying hatred of Rye bread. For example; based on what Pierre is saying...  which is a blanket statement and COULD BE TOTALLY MISINTERPRETED BY CERTAIN PEOPLE ... he is suggesting that as PM, you would be able to go to any public space, say whatever you want in protest. "I HATE RYE BREAD"  "DEATH TO RYE BREAD"  "RYE BREAD WILL NOT REPLACE US."   You get the idea. 

To me, I understand the desire for free speech, but I also understand the need to censor speech as well. I believe the pen is mightier than the sword, and I also believe that Hitler didn't murder 6 million Jewish people all by himself. I draw a direct line between speech that fuels hatred that leads to violence and persecution which is why we have laws that censor speech  and define hate speech.  

2) From what I can tell.... I'm not sure you can say as a political leader that you're against Hamas, for Israel, and support Palestinian people suggesting that Canada should do everything in it's power to protect said "precious" Palestinian civilians.  He's basically tip toeing around everything and just saying what he hopes will be the most popular thing to say.  I imagine Trudeau is saying the exact same crap, so please understand that I'm painting most politicians with the same brush here, but based solely on this speech I can't help but see the same political bullshit from a guy who is promising not to be a political bullshitter. 

I’m going to try to come back and watch the full video, but on your first point unless he’s talking about rescinding our existing hate laws I don’t really put many limits on expressing of opinions. As far as I know if one substituted a race or religion for rye bread in your example then laws would be broken. If someone hates rye bread they should be free to express so, as long as they don’t cross the line of harassment (another reasonable limit to me).

On your second point I’m going to be a bit self-contradictory, lol. What’s happening in Israel and Gaza is a more nuanced issue than some allow it to be, but on the point of protecting civilians it is a bit binary in that everyone should be against civilian casualties (and then the fog of war kicks in).

While I don’t agree with much of what she said (and partly how she said it), I’m still uncomfortable with Jama’s censure in the Ontario Legislature.

HughFreakingDillon

conservatives on twitter are going ballastic on trudeau for his daughter going as a headless horseman for halloween. good god. IT'S HALLOWEEN. SHE ISN'T DRESSED AS A TERRORIST OR HEADLESS JOURNALIST. 

Parksy

HughFreakingDillon said:

conservatives on twitter are going ballastic on trudeau for his daughter going as a headless horseman for halloween. good god. IT'S HALLOWEEN. SHE ISN'T DRESSED AS A TERRORIST OR HEADLESS JOURNALIST. 

Its a fantastic costume.  

Parksy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0GB0EtbECw

I  "diss" Pierre a lot...   this I will give him credit for. 

I still don't like him to be clear... but if he wants to be the next PM, in my opinion this is how he does it. 

I don't think a Conservative Leader wins an election on social conservatism merits and opinions.  But presently in Canada, I think the way to defeat Trudeau is to focus on fiscal conservatism.

In this clip he does three things:

1) Reminds the public that Trudeau and the Liberals are corrupt. 
2) Stamped his fiscal conservative strategy (lower taxes) 
3) Put the ball in the Liberals court and suggested "Hey, let's let the public vote and decide." 

If Pierre puts the brakes on his incessant talking points around wokeness, freedom, main stream media, and the CBC....  he stands a VERY good chance of becoming PM. 

HughFreakingDillon

I would have to agree. if he stuck to stuff like this, he might actually turn some center lefters like me. but yeah, the constant trump style shit won't work. he's preaching to his choir. honestly, at this point, I think the next election is his to lose. 

PJ_Soul

DarthMaeglin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

the problem is, Trudeau is right. They aren't real news. they can't be taken seriously. trump only does it because of his ego. when biden and/or obama make fun of fox, it's justified, and the same as trudeau. trudeau doesn't just paint any publication that reports negatively on him as fake news. 

I’m sorry but all of that is debatable, and that’s fair enough as far as I’m concerned. Trudeau’s right in your opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Having watched a good chunk of Fox News when I stay with my aunt and uncle, they seem to be just as objective as CNN, just from the other side. The only difference is the window dressing, so to speak. But that’s my own perception.

That is objectively false.

HughFreakingDillon

CNN is just barely left of center. 
Fox is way right of center, closer to hyper partisan. not even comparable. 

HughFreakingDillon

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

CNN is just barely left of center. 
Fox is way right of center, closer to hyper partisan. not even comparable. 

The way CNN treats Democrats compared to Republicans is clear to anyone who tunes in. They’re not as bombastic as Fox, I’ll give you that, lol.

HughFreakingDillon

odd how you claim to speak for "anyone who tunes in". hard disagree on that. I find it quite balanced. The only thing that wasn't was don lemon and cuomo. but even at that, they weren't even close to the fox talking heads on their evening shows. 

PJ_Soul

Nearly everyone on Fox News comes off as at least partly untethered from reality or actually insane. Nobody on CNN does.

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

odd how you claim to speak for "anyone who tunes in". hard disagree on that. I find it quite balanced. The only thing that wasn't was don lemon and cuomo. but even at that, they weren't even close to the fox talking heads on their evening shows. 

You keep claiming your opinions as equally absolute. You think CNN is balanced, I don’t dispute that (and even expect it). I don’t so we disagree hard on that point.

In the end we’re discussing the networks respective styles, which is entirely subjective. Some people preferred Donahue to Geraldo or (later) Oprah to Jerry, lol.

Given that both main US political parties are both right of centre then CNN’s placement on your chart isn’t all that surprising, but it would be interesting to dig into how they came up with the chart. Proportionally CNN may sit equally to the left of the Democrats as Fox does to the right of the Republicans. A similar (presumably honest) analysis of Canadian media outlets would probably be interesting fodder for discussion.

Edited to add (later) before Oprah. She was quite a bit more sensational in her early talk show days, lol.

PJ_Soul

I would suggest that the Republicans now sit right of Fox News, lol!

DarthMaeglin

PJ_Soul said:

I would suggest that the Republicans now sit right of Fox News, lol!

I wouldn’t necessarily say no, lol.

HughFreakingDillon

DarthMaeglin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

odd how you claim to speak for "anyone who tunes in". hard disagree on that. I find it quite balanced. The only thing that wasn't was don lemon and cuomo. but even at that, they weren't even close to the fox talking heads on their evening shows. 

You keep claiming your opinions as equally absolute. You think CNN is balanced, I don’t dispute that (and even expect it). I don’t so we disagree hard on that point.

In the end we’re discussing the networks respective styles, which is entirely subjective. Some people preferred Donahue to Geraldo or (later) Oprah to Jerry, lol.

Given that both main US political parties are both right of centre then CNN’s placement on your chart isn’t all that surprising, but it would be interesting to dig into how they came up with the chart. Proportionally CNN may sit equally to the left of the Democrats as Fox does to the right of the Republicans. A similar (presumably honest) analysis of Canadian media outlets would probably be interesting fodder for discussion.

Edited to add (later) before Oprah. She was quite a bit more sensational in her early talk show days, lol.

I'm not claiming my opinion is absolute, and I'm not saying I speak for everyone who watches the news like you are. I'm saying it's generally accepted that CNN is way more balanced than Fox by general analysis of a few main factors. it's absurd to say they are the same. 

does CNN have its issues? absolutely. is it sensationalistic? it's why I stopped watching. 

however, if CNN had people screaming at the screen every night about a convoy coming to murder your family, democrats coming for your guns, etc, and corrupt POS cult leader is the best president in history, maybe I'd agree with you. 

this link it explains it: https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/media-bias-chart