I feel bad for the workers to say this; it’s a massive workforce, but it’s essentially a nearly obsolete service. All the mail I get is junk. The shit I need is electronic or courier.
My fliers go directly into my bonfire pit.
Most (not all) homes still get mail every 1-2 days. The problem is the number of homes in Canada has grown exponentially and it’s not cost effective to service them all anymore. Private couriers do not service vast areas of our country. They subcontract their deliveries to Canada Post. Those of us in the big cities have it good. Many rural communities would be completely cut off if not for the public post office.
100%. So like many other sevices, we could keep canada post rural and do something else for urban centres. Maybe a multi-solution idea would be too confusing to the public, but it’s just mot viable.
I have friends who are posties. It can be a gruellingly thankless job. ESPECIALLY in Winnipeg (2 of my friends started at CP in Vancouver, then CHOSE to transfer back here). So they do deserve higher pay/better benefits. But the model needs updating.
There’s so much evil stuff under the surface of these public sector labour disputes that the public never hears about. Reporters don’t ask questions anymore. They just copy and paste the corporate and union statements and call it news. Journalism is dying even faster than letter mail volumes.
Probably a topic for a separate thread, but…they are only following those they serve. The public today need information yesterday and in 10 second sound bites. Investigative journalism is no longer cost effective.
It’s a chicken or the egg situation for sure but I lean towards feeling lazy journalism is at least partially responsible for the dumbing down of general society and not a so much a product of it. When Canada Post refused the unusual union request for binding arbitration the news only reported that Canada Post says it would lead to uncertainty. Now sadly probably 80% of people just take that as fact. If reporters would’ve asked 1 or 2 simple questions to get to some truth it would encourage critical intelligent thinking. Why would a union request binding arbitration which historically doesn’t benefit the workers? Are the contract offers actually that bad that they could do better with arbitration (yes). Why would arbitration cause uncertainty? Wouldn’t it mean an end to the threat of strike or lockout and a guaranteed contract and return to full service (yes).
What would be your percentage of useful/junk mail that you get from CP? I say 85% junk. We check at home for the few random gov / insurance type mail that still come physically by mail, and of course jury duty summons - wouldn't want to miss that and have to pay 1000$ fine lol.
My mailman told me that if you just put a big red dot on your mailbox, they won't deliver the flyers.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
What would be your percentage of useful/junk mail that you get from CP? I say 85% junk. We check at home for the few random gov / insurance type mail that still come physically by mail, and of course jury duty summons - wouldn't want to miss that and have to pay 1000$ fine lol.
My mailman told me that if you just put big red dot on your mailbox, they won't deliver the flyers.
True! There are specific stickers you can ask for now too.
What would be your percentage of useful/junk mail that you get from CP? I say 85% junk. We check at home for the few random gov / insurance type mail that still come physically by mail, and of course jury duty summons - wouldn't want to miss that and have to pay 1000$ fine lol.
My mailman told me that if you just put big red dot on your mailbox, they won't deliver the flyers.
Holy smokes! Thanks for the tip
(2000) Mansfield I, Mansfield II (2003) Montreal (2005) Montreal, Ottawa (2006) Albany (2008) Montreal I + II (EV) (2022) Québec City
to be clear, i like Canada Post... they're just losing way way way too much money to be sustainable.
But is it fair to characterize an essential public service as “losing money” or should we shift it to “spending money”?
Sorry, could you elaborate? Spending money how?
Toronto 2000
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013 Toronto I&II 2016 10C: 220xxx
to be clear, i like Canada Post... they're just losing way way way too much money to be sustainable.
But is it fair to characterize an essential public service as “losing money” or should we shift it to “spending money”?
Sorry, could you elaborate? Spending money how?
We don’t ever say the healthcare system is losing money. We say how much it costs. Canada Post’s mandate isn’t to be profitable. It’s to serve a need.
ah ok I see what you're saying. To me though.. we may be having a similar discussion if we no longer needed health care or if the function of health care becomes obsolete.
Toronto 2000
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013 Toronto I&II 2016 10C: 220xxx
He’d probably give y’all fifty electoral votes, fifty congresspeople, two senators…and let you keep your anthem, Parliament , PM, health care, all for free…and if the Oilers win, then hey, why the heck not? What could possibly be more valuable with your dollar? Independent States have significant identity and diversity.
What is the matter with you?
Guessing the tongue in cheek humor is lost on you.
Behind most HUMOR is a percent of truth. I challenged Canadians to calculate the value of fifty electoral votes, fifty congressmen, two senators, perhaps more, which would be open to negotiation, while maintaining significant independence. That has significant value
anyone following politics certainly understands that America has a problem, which is not my fault nor my fellow Democratic voters. We have tens of millions of voters in rural and exurban America, who are not reachable to Democrats.
In addition to not knowing how to reach these voters, Democrats do not even know what to say. All we need to look at is what is said on this forum. Democrats have replied to extremism with their version of extremism, and it ain’t working with the majority of voters.The liberal movement is lost in the weeds, and we could use all the help we could get. But go on you being you, and let’s all root for the Oilers to win!
You challenge us to calculate value? Based on Trump? You understand he is a narcissistic pathological liar right? Like you know that right?
How many of you Americans heard him say Mexico was paying for a border wall and actually believed that? lol
He is a lot more than that. That comment is very reminiscent of for the last four years,Those that underestimated Trump and created this mess.
He is a man of negotiation. That’s the point of my comment that everyone missed. Am I being realistic? No, not really. But if that was tried, you might’ve made him happy. Maybe it would’ve led to a deal with zero boundaries being redrawn . Probably not. But one thing it would’ve done is it would’ve bought us all time until his term runs out. And it would’ve made him happy for indulging him
Instead of thinking about the psychology of trump, your leaders and you guys ran to your corner, hated all Americans, and you refuse to see the sunlight right in front of your eyes. That’s not on me
the Mexico paying for the wall is part of his schtik. He thinks that makes his followers happy and they all get a laugh about it. Like so many people on the left have no clue about Trump. It’s amazing
to be clear, i like Canada Post... they're just losing way way way too much money to be sustainable.
But is it fair to characterize an essential public service as “losing money” or should we shift it to “spending money”?
Sorry, could you elaborate? Spending money how?
We don’t ever say the healthcare system is losing money. We say how much it costs. Canada Post’s mandate isn’t to be profitable. It’s to serve a need.
ah ok I see what you're saying. To me though.. we may be having a similar discussion if we no longer needed health care or if the function of health care becomes obsolete.
The way Canada Post presents itself is the issue. They’re being deceptive on purpose. If a fire department invests in a new fleet of modern fire engines they don’t then call the media and cry that they’re in a financial crisis. Canada Post spends a billion dollars on new processing plants and electric vehicles (which are rotting in storage because they don’t have the charging infrastructure to run them) and then calls all that spending “losses” and cries it from the rooftops every chance they get. Appearing to be broke benefits them during contract negotiations as they use it an excuse to attack workers contracts. Also I believe both the Conservative and Liberal Parties long game is to sell out & privatize Canada Post. Appearing broke helps give them excuse to cut services and eventually gain public support for privatization.
Also inferring that Canada Post is obsolete is a real stretch. It shows that their (and the govts) deception is working on people. Canada Post is doing the same thing as UPS, Fedex, DHL etc only they do it cheaper, cover a larger area in Canada, and provide more services than those private couriers. It would be fare to say that lettermail is in decline and that Canada Post is being brutally mismanaged but it is far from obsolete. As a Canadian citizen they are your public post office. Whether you use the service or not is up to you.
He’d probably give y’all fifty electoral votes, fifty congresspeople, two senators…and let you keep your anthem, Parliament , PM, health care, all for free…and if the Oilers win, then hey, why the heck not? What could possibly be more valuable with your dollar? Independent States have significant identity and diversity.
What is the matter with you?
Guessing the tongue in cheek humor is lost on you.
Behind most HUMOR is a percent of truth. I challenged Canadians to calculate the value of fifty electoral votes, fifty congressmen, two senators, perhaps more, which would be open to negotiation, while maintaining significant independence. That has significant value
anyone following politics certainly understands that America has a problem, which is not my fault nor my fellow Democratic voters. We have tens of millions of voters in rural and exurban America, who are not reachable to Democrats.
In addition to not knowing how to reach these voters, Democrats do not even know what to say. All we need to look at is what is said on this forum. Democrats have replied to extremism with their version of extremism, and it ain’t working with the majority of voters.The liberal movement is lost in the weeds, and we could use all the help we could get. But go on you being you, and let’s all root for the Oilers to win!
You challenge us to calculate value? Based on Trump? You understand he is a narcissistic pathological liar right? Like you know that right?
How many of you Americans heard him say Mexico was paying for a border wall and actually believed that? lol
He is a lot more than that. That comment is very reminiscent of for the last four years,Those that underestimated Trump and created this mess.
He is a man of negotiation. That’s the point of my comment that everyone missed. Am I being realistic? No, not really. But if that was tried, you might’ve made him happy. Maybe it would’ve led to a deal with zero boundaries being redrawn . Probably not. But one thing it would’ve done is it would’ve bought us all time until his term runs out. And it would’ve made him happy for indulging him
Instead of thinking about the psychology of trump, your leaders and you guys ran to your corner, hated all Americans, and you refuse to see the sunlight right in front of your eyes. That’s not on me
Hated all Americans. 😂 still clinging to that bullshit notion, eh? Keep that shit up. It’s why no one takes you seriously.
Ran to our corner? Uh, our leaders did what they should have: told him to fuck off and decide to become more self sufficient and strike deals with other world leaders that actually act like partners. While telling him we’re still friends if he knocks off the bullshit.
You don’t react to a petulant child by giving him what they want. You keep talking out both sides if your mouth; one day, trump is a genius who played everybody and continues to do so, then here you’re saying he’s easily fooled into stalling until he’s lame duck or gone.
Pick a lane and stick with it.
"every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"
I live in one of Canada's biggest cities, and Canada Post feels like a necessity to me- i can't be the only one obviously. I am not too clear about where some are getting the idea that CP is obsolete in any way. Its problem is that it's not doing well financially and has some "structural" issues, not that it isn't providing an important service. I agree that it should be viewed as a federal service, and not as a business. I am totally okay with some of my tax dollars going to CP functioning well.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I live in one of Canada's biggest cities, and Canada Post feels like a necessity to me- i can't be the only one obviously. I am not too clear about where some are getting the idea that CP is obsolete in any way. Its problem is that it's not doing well financially, not that it isn't providing an important service. I agree that it shoukd be viewed as a federal service, and not as a business. I am totally okay with some of my tax dollars going to CP functioning well.
I don’t think it’s obsolete, but I think the model needs to change.
"every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"
I live in one of Canada's biggest cities, and Canada Post feels like a necessity to me- i can't be the only one obviously. I am not too clear about where some are getting the idea that CP is obsolete in any way. Its problem is that it's not doing well financially and has some "structural" issues, not that it isn't providing an important service. I agree that it should be viewed as a federal service, and not as a business. I am totally okay with some of my tax dollars going to CP functioning well.
I think there's two things going on with CP. Lettermail volumes have continually dropped since the advent of the internet. I think that side of the business needs to adjust. IE reduce the # of days per week they deliver and/or finish the conversion to community mailboxes. Lettermail causes a big loss because with each passing year less and less people use it.
Parcels seem to hold their own, but they've dropped the ball a bit, and couriers (big ones to small ones to Amazon's own delivery fleet) have picked up a lot of slack. I think parcels are probably where CP can shine if they can improve delivery times, weekend delivery etc...
I don't mind subsidizing CP but I don't think it should be a blank cheque. i do think they have to make some hard choices on lettermail. I do want to see them stick around. I can't imagine how bad courier prices would be if we didn't have Canada Post offering lower rates. How often do I mail something out and choose CP because it's the cheapest way to mail a parcel. If you don't have them doing that, couriers are going to get a lot more expensive :(
What people outside the organization typically don’t know is there is already a system in place to deal with declining letter volumes. Every depot across the country periodically counts volumes of all product and uses software to restructure all delivery routes accordingly. If there is less mail the routes take on more addresses. Changes need to happen at Canada Post but service and labour cuts are not going to address the major problems. Mismanagement & wasteful spending are what really need attention. Why would a company in dire straits continue to pay out bonuses to management? Why would a CEO who was at the helm during all the supposed catastrophic “losses” be given a contract extension? They are deceiving the public into accepting service cuts and supporting labour contract cuts so that the pigs can keep overfeeding at the trough. It has been the same story for the last 20 years. They keep coming up with new, more difficult ways that they insist the job must be done, with less labour, and less services to the public but the financial situation never improves because the real problems aren’t being addressed. Every service and contract cut is just lining the pockets of those who least deserve it.
I live in one of Canada's biggest cities, and Canada Post feels like a necessity to me- i can't be the only one obviously. I am not too clear about where some are getting the idea that CP is obsolete in any way. Its problem is that it's not doing well financially and has some "structural" issues, not that it isn't providing an important service. I agree that it should be viewed as a federal service, and not as a business. I am totally okay with some of my tax dollars going to CP functioning well.
Like Hugh was saying before... it's obsolete in terms of how 'necessary' it is. This to me is mostly because of email. Snail mail used to be important before email for documents and contracts etc. Parcel delivery service... again there is too much competition out there for CP to be considered necessary.
Personally... Canada Post delivers 90% junk to me. Flyers basically. FedEx, UPS, DHL, etc are out competing CP in terms of parcel service. To that end, I'm not sure why... but they absolutely are. And beyond debating the causes of that, the fact does remain that e-commerce and email are killing federal postal service.
Toronto 2000
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013 Toronto I&II 2016 10C: 220xxx
to be clear, i like Canada Post... they're just losing way way way too much money to be sustainable.
But is it fair to characterize an essential public service as “losing money” or should we shift it to “spending money”?
Sorry, could you elaborate? Spending money how?
We don’t ever say the healthcare system is losing money. We say how much it costs. Canada Post’s mandate isn’t to be profitable. It’s to serve a need.
ah ok I see what you're saying. To me though.. we may be having a similar discussion if we no longer needed health care or if the function of health care becomes obsolete.
The way Canada Post presents itself is the issue. They’re being deceptive on purpose. If a fire department invests in a new fleet of modern fire engines they don’t then call the media and cry that they’re in a financial crisis. Canada Post spends a billion dollars on new processing plants and electric vehicles (which are rotting in storage because they don’t have the charging infrastructure to run them) and then calls all that spending “losses” and cries it from the rooftops every chance they get. Appearing to be broke benefits them during contract negotiations as they use it an excuse to attack workers contracts. Also I believe both the Conservative and Liberal Parties long game is to sell out & privatize Canada Post. Appearing broke helps give them excuse to cut services and eventually gain public support for privatization.
interesting points
Toronto 2000
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013 Toronto I&II 2016 10C: 220xxx
I live in one of Canada's biggest cities, and Canada Post feels like a necessity to me- i can't be the only one obviously. I am not too clear about where some are getting the idea that CP is obsolete in any way. Its problem is that it's not doing well financially and has some "structural" issues, not that it isn't providing an important service. I agree that it should be viewed as a federal service, and not as a business. I am totally okay with some of my tax dollars going to CP functioning well.
Like Hugh was saying before... it's obsolete in terms of how 'necessary' it is. This to me is mostly because of email. Snail mail used to be important before email for documents and contracts etc. Parcel delivery service... again there is too much competition out there for CP to be considered necessary.
Personally... Canada Post delivers 90% junk to me. Flyers basically. FedEx, UPS, DHL, etc are out competing CP in terms of parcel service. To that end, I'm not sure why... but they absolutely are. And beyond debating the causes of that, the fact does remain that e-commerce and email are killing federal postal service.
All I can say is people will see how necessary it was if it’s ever gone and then it will be too late. No good has ever come from losing or privatizing public services. Costs go up, service goes down. We’ve seen it with rail, hospital cleaners & kitchen staff, old folks homes etc etc. It’s never good for anyone other than the greedy execs at the top of corporations. The workers are only 55,000. They fight every contract to maintain public services levels. If the rest of Canadians don’t fight too we’ll all lose.
👆 I gotta say too that my experience with Canada Post vs the private couriers has been much different than your opinion of them. I find Canada Post to be the fastest and most reliable for parcel service. Since the dawn of internet shopping Canada Post & USPS have never once lost my parcel. Fedex workers stole 6 separate pairs of Nikes from me in one year & I no longer shop Nike online because of their use of Fedex. UPS has been dependable and never let me down but they’re much more expensive and 1/2 the time slower.
👆 I gotta say too that my experience with Canada Post vs the private couriers has been much different than your opinion of them. I find Canada Post to be the fastest and most reliable for parcel service. Since the dawn of internet shopping Canada Post & USPS have never once lost my parcel. Fedex workers stole 6 separate pairs of Nikes from me in one year & I no longer shop Nike online because of their use of Fedex. UPS has been dependable and never let me down but they’re much more expensive and 1/2 the time slower.
100%, except for your feelings about UPS, which I absolutely despise. The UPS drivers literally are too lazy or busy to even try delivering packages to me directly - they just default to dropping it off at some decrepit, bizarre little drop off point nowhere near me. I literally refuse to order from any place that uses that service unless I have no other choice. I think FedEx is not all that much better unless ypu pay through the nose. And then all those random shipping companies... also not much better than UPS half the time, although sometimes they come through, to my surprise. CP is ultra-reliable by comparison, and the most affordable. I will be really upset if that changes because of the incompetence of those running it (which is strange to say, since it's the best service, lol).
Post edited by PJ_Soul at
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I live in one of Canada's biggest cities, and Canada Post feels like a necessity to me- i can't be the only one obviously. I am not too clear about where some are getting the idea that CP is obsolete in any way. Its problem is that it's not doing well financially and has some "structural" issues, not that it isn't providing an important service. I agree that it should be viewed as a federal service, and not as a business. I am totally okay with some of my tax dollars going to CP functioning well.
Like Hugh was saying before... it's obsolete in terms of how 'necessary' it is. This to me is mostly because of email. Snail mail used to be important before email for documents and contracts etc. Parcel delivery service... again there is too much competition out there for CP to be considered necessary.
Personally... Canada Post delivers 90% junk to me. Flyers basically. FedEx, UPS, DHL, etc are out competing CP in terms of parcel service. To that end, I'm not sure why... but they absolutely are. And beyond debating the causes of that, the fact does remain that e-commerce and email are killing federal postal service.
All I can say is people will see how necessary it was if it’s ever gone and then it will be too late. No good has ever come from losing or privatizing public services. Costs go up, service goes down. We’ve seen it with rail, hospital cleaners & kitchen staff, old folks homes etc etc. It’s never good for anyone other than the greedy execs at the top of corporations. The workers are only 55,000. They fight every contract to maintain public services levels. If the rest of Canadians don’t fight too we’ll all lose.
That in mind... is it a public service? From what I understand.... it's Crown corporation. That owns Purolator mind you. And I'll admit, I'm no expert on this... but Crown corporations are still businesses that have been deemed to be essential by the government. But they are still for profit.
This also goes back to what I was mentioning before about losing money vs. spending money.
But to me the stark contrast between an actual public service that is controlled, managed, and fully funded publicly and a Crown corporation is the designation of 'essential.' If postal service was essential and public, why are their so many private competitors... ironically a company that they themselves own.. Purolator.
Toronto 2000
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013 Toronto I&II 2016 10C: 220xxx
Comments
My mailman told me that if you just put a big red dot on your mailbox, they won't deliver the flyers.
Holy smokes! Thanks for the tip
(2000) Mansfield I, Mansfield II (2003) Montreal (2005) Montreal, Ottawa (2006) Albany (2008) Montreal I + II (EV) (2022) Québec City
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
Personally... Canada Post delivers 90% junk to me. Flyers basically. FedEx, UPS, DHL, etc are out competing CP in terms of parcel service. To that end, I'm not sure why... but they absolutely are. And beyond debating the causes of that, the fact does remain that e-commerce and email are killing federal postal service.
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
UPS has been dependable and never let me down but they’re much more expensive and 1/2 the time slower.
This also goes back to what I was mentioning before about losing money vs. spending money.
But to me the stark contrast between an actual public service that is controlled, managed, and fully funded publicly and a Crown corporation is the designation of 'essential.' If postal service was essential and public, why are their so many private competitors... ironically a company that they themselves own.. Purolator.
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx