When a large part of the discussion is the proportionality of a response and numbers have been used, when those numbers change significantly, then I do see that as absolutely germane to the discussion.
It’s sad that I seemingly need to point everyone back to the last line of my post introducing the revised numbers. The line where I clearly acknowledge that civilian deaths in a war zone have always been and will always be a tragedy.
However, until warfare becomes so targeted that it all occurs via nanobots, there WILL be civilians killed in war.
Is there an equal cry to make us (Canada) face justice for the civilian deaths we caused in Afghanistan? Why not?
there absolutely fucking should be. I have always maintained that our participation in any activity in the mid east that directly caused civilian deaths should be investigated, and prosecuted if applicable.
Israel has been actively engaged in genocide for decades. But it's somehow ok because you aren't allowed to criticize anything linked to Israel without being called a bigot.
this conflict did not start on Oct 7.
So was October 7th a legitimate military operation? Did it break an existing ceasefire? What would you have Israel do?
And how would you have seen Canada react to 9/11?
I believe these are fair and reasonable questions.
I don't think anyone's called anyone a bigot in this thread thus far so I don't see any relevance in the suggestion.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
When a large part of the discussion is the proportionality of a response and numbers have been used, when those numbers change significantly, then I do see that as absolutely germane to the discussion.
It’s sad that I seemingly need to point everyone back to the last line of my post introducing the revised numbers. The line where I clearly acknowledge that civilian deaths in a war zone have always been and will always be a tragedy.
However, until warfare becomes so targeted that it all occurs via nanobots, there WILL be civilians killed in war.
Is there an equal cry to make us (Canada) face justice for the civilian deaths we caused in Afghanistan? Why not?
there absolutely fucking should be. I have always maintained that our participation in any activity in the mid east that directly caused civilian deaths should be investigated, and prosecuted if applicable.
Israel has been actively engaged in genocide for decades. But it's somehow ok because you aren't allowed to criticize anything linked to Israel without being called a bigot.
this conflict did not start on Oct 7.
So was October 7th a legitimate military operation? Did it break an existing ceasefire? What would you have Israel do?
And how would you have seen Canada react to 9/11?
I believe these are fair and reasonable questions.
I don't think anyone's called anyone a bigot in this thread thus far so I don't see any relevance in the suggestion.
it's funny what some people consider terrorism, others consider legitimate military operations. all depends which side you're on.
the entire reason this occupation is allowed to stand is because of so-called anti-semitism and the west's need for a powerful ally in the mid east. that's it. everyone says how complicated it is (for those not Israeli/Palestinian). it's not. it's those two reasons. if israel were in africa, not surrounded by countries rich in resources, no one would give a flying fuck about them. zero. nada. zilch.
When a large part of the discussion is the proportionality of a response and numbers have been used, when those numbers change significantly, then I do see that as absolutely germane to the discussion.
It’s sad that I seemingly need to point everyone back to the last line of my post introducing the revised numbers. The line where I clearly acknowledge that civilian deaths in a war zone have always been and will always be a tragedy.
However, until warfare becomes so targeted that it all occurs via nanobots, there WILL be civilians killed in war.
Is there an equal cry to make us (Canada) face justice for the civilian deaths we caused in Afghanistan? Why not?
there absolutely fucking should be. I have always maintained that our participation in any activity in the mid east that directly caused civilian deaths should be investigated, and prosecuted if applicable.
Israel has been actively engaged in genocide for decades. But it's somehow ok because you aren't allowed to criticize anything linked to Israel without being called a bigot.
this conflict did not start on Oct 7.
So was October 7th a legitimate military operation? Did it break an existing ceasefire? What would you have Israel do?
And how would you have seen Canada react to 9/11?
I believe these are fair and reasonable questions.
I don't think anyone's called anyone a bigot in this thread thus far so I don't see any relevance in the suggestion.
it's funny what some people consider terrorism, others consider legitimate military operations. all depends which side you're on.
the entire reason this occupation is allowed to stand is because of so-called anti-semitism and the west's need for a powerful ally in the mid east. that's it. everyone says how complicated it is (for those not Israeli/Palestinian). it's not. it's those two reasons. if israel were in africa, not surrounded by countries rich in resources, no one would give a flying fuck about them. zero. nada. zilch.
It seems like you're suggesting that October 7th was a fair operation, but I don't want to put words in your mouth.
I'll be perfectly honest I don't really understand what you mean by your second paragraph.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
UN says total number of deaths in Gaza remains unchanged after controversy over revised data
Published May 13, 2024 3:10 p.m.
Abeer Salman, Richard Roth, Jeremy Diamond and Sugam Pokharel
Backdropped by smoke rising to the sky after an explosion in the Gaza Strip, an Israeli tank stands near the Israel-Gaza border as seen from southern Israel, Monday, May 13, 2024. (AP Photo/Leo Correa)
The United Nations on Monday clarified that the overall number of fatalities in Gaza tallied by the Ministry of Health in Gaza remains unchanged, at more than 35,000, since the war broke out between Israel and Hamas on Oct. 7.
The clarification comes after the UN humanitarian agency OCHA (United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs) published a report on May 8 with revised data regarding the number of Palestinian casualties in the war. The UN agency in its report reduced the number of women and children believed to have been killed in the war by nearly half.
The number was reduced because the UN says it is now relying on the number of deceased women and children whose names and other identifying details have been fully documented, rather than the total number of women and children killed. The ministry says bodies that arrive at hospitals get counted in the overall death count.
UN spokesperson Farhan Haq told a daily briefing at the UN that the health ministry in Gaza recently published two separate death tolls – an overall death toll and a total number of identified fatalities. In the UN report, only the total number of fatalities whose identities (such as name and date of birth) have been documented was published, leading to confusion.
According to Haq, the ministry published a breakdown for 24,686 fully identified deaths out of the total 34,622 fatalities recorded in Gaza as of April 30. The fully identified death toll comprises of 7,797 children, 4,959 women, 1,924 elderly, and 10,006 men, the UN spokesperson said, citing the Gaza health ministry.
The health authority in Gaza noted that the documentation process of casualties’ full identification details is still ongoing, Haq added.
Two officials from the Palestinian Ministry of Health have told CNN that although the ministry keeps a separate death toll for identified and unidentified individuals, the total number of people killed remains unchanged.
The total number of dead also does not include the approximately 10,000 people who are still missing and trapped under the rubble, the officials added.
Israel launched its military assault on Gaza on Oct. 7 after the militant group Hamas, which governs Gaza, killed at least 1,200 people in Israel and abducted more than 250 others. Israel’s months-long siege of the Palestinian enclave has since pulverized large parts of Gaza and drastically diminished critical supplies, exposing the entire population of more than 2.2 million people to the risk of famine.
CNN has seen a daily report from the Palestinian health ministry which matches the number OCHA published in the revised version. A total of 15,103 children and 9,961 women have been killed in Gaza since Oct. 7, the Gaza ministry of health said in its latest report.
Both the UN and U.S. officials have previously appraised the figures from the Ministry of Health in Gaza as credible.
CNN cannot independently verify the ministry’s numbers. The ministry does not distinguish between casualties among fighters and civilians.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Fair enough, we're back where we started, and I continue to assert the numbers can’t be trusted, and the article ends with more or less that conclusion.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
I suggest it's pretty weird to make a point that only killing 7000 children somehow makes things look better for Israel. I personally hold Israel up to much higher standards than I do a terrorist organization, so I don't really get this tit for tat concept that you're onto.
agreed
Toronto 2000
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013 Toronto I&II 2016 10C: 220xxx
This may complicate an already complicated discussion.. but here goes lol
What's happening to me is in line with the 'woke' - 'anti-woke' rhetoric of late.
If your Fox News etc. then the protests are disgusting and you stand against it. You see people protesting in support of Palestinians and instantly they're pro-Hamas.
(If you want, The Daily Show put out a VERY VERY VERY glaring clip of how Fox News reacted to our Freedom Convoy compared to the war in Gaza) Darth.. I highly recommend watching. You'll see the blatant hypocrisy on display.
This discussion at times, and whether it's me or it's darth turns into a what aboutism conversation. And on one side, Darth, you're suggesting 'well.. what about Canada' yadda yadda.
Thing is... you're not wrong, and we agree with you. I think all of the 'woke' people and the protesters agree as well.
I think Canada for the most part is one of the finest countries in the world but we're certainly not without fault or guilt in many ways. I have no problem reconciling that and admitting those mistakes.
This is what separates me from a lot of people in the States.
Their history is littered with atrocities. From the very beginning of their existence all the way to today. On one hand claiming to be the land of the free... the protectors of freedom... the shining light and beacon of civility. While on the other hand not giving two shits about the rest of the world, killing civilians, quelling rebellions, supporting proxy wars.
Nothing was ever questionable. Is USA great? Yes. And no other answer is acceptable. Ask Fox News.
Toronto 2000
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013 Toronto I&II 2016 10C: 220xxx
Fair enough, we're back where we started, and I continue to assert the numbers can’t be trusted, and the article ends with more or less that conclusion.
For what it's worth I don't immediately call Palestinian supporters antisemitic, but start to do so when Jewish communities and facilities are seemingly targeted for protest, as has been the case in Toronto (though not as much of late, to be fair).
We haven't even touched on the campus protests here and some of the issues that have been reported at those camps. By the way, aren't they occupying a place and therefore subject to the Emergencies Act? (That question is only half-joking sadly. )
I completely agree with you on how you view our own country, very well put, thank you.
My own view on the US is that they are a work in progress, but overall an ideal worth pursuing. Do they currently have issues and a sometimes problematic history? For sure, but again I'll call them a work in progress, just like every nation on the planet.
I suspect many here would lump me in as living in Fox News country. Having spent a couple months in a Fox News household, I'm honestly not sure I should call myself a Conservative anymore, even if they remain the party I'm most likely to vote for, lol.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Fair enough, we're back where we started, and I continue to assert the numbers can’t be trusted, and the article ends with more or less that conclusion.
but you trusted them when they were decreased.
Because I give a fair amount of weight to the source.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
When a large part of the discussion is the proportionality of a response and numbers have been used, when those numbers change significantly, then I do see that as absolutely germane to the discussion.
It’s sad that I seemingly need to point everyone back to the last line of my post introducing the revised numbers. The line where I clearly acknowledge that civilian deaths in a war zone have always been and will always be a tragedy.
However, until warfare becomes so targeted that it all occurs via nanobots, there WILL be civilians killed in war.
Is there an equal cry to make us (Canada) face justice for the civilian deaths we caused in Afghanistan? Why not?
there absolutely fucking should be. I have always maintained that our participation in any activity in the mid east that directly caused civilian deaths should be investigated, and prosecuted if applicable.
Israel has been actively engaged in genocide for decades. But it's somehow ok because you aren't allowed to criticize anything linked to Israel without being called a bigot.
this conflict did not start on Oct 7.
So was October 7th a legitimate military operation? Did it break an existing ceasefire? What would you have Israel do?
And how would you have seen Canada react to 9/11?
I believe these are fair and reasonable questions.
I don't think anyone's called anyone a bigot in this thread thus far so I don't see any relevance in the suggestion.
it's funny what some people consider terrorism, others consider legitimate military operations. all depends which side you're on.
the entire reason this occupation is allowed to stand is because of so-called anti-semitism and the west's need for a powerful ally in the mid east. that's it. everyone says how complicated it is (for those not Israeli/Palestinian). it's not. it's those two reasons. if israel were in africa, not surrounded by countries rich in resources, no one would give a flying fuck about them. zero. nada. zilch.
With no clarification I have to read your first statement here as legitimizing the October 7th attack. Legitimate military operations do not target civilians intentionally, full stop.
Your second statement seems to be saying that the establishment of the state of Israel (more or less in line with its biblical borders) had little to nothing to do with the slaughter of 6 million Jews but was rather a cynical ploy to further destabilize the region? And we've only helped deter the genocide of Israel by its neighbours only because of the access it gives us to oil? Seriously, please clarify what you mean.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
When a large part of the discussion is the proportionality of a response and numbers have been used, when those numbers change significantly, then I do see that as absolutely germane to the discussion.
It’s sad that I seemingly need to point everyone back to the last line of my post introducing the revised numbers. The line where I clearly acknowledge that civilian deaths in a war zone have always been and will always be a tragedy.
However, until warfare becomes so targeted that it all occurs via nanobots, there WILL be civilians killed in war.
Is there an equal cry to make us (Canada) face justice for the civilian deaths we caused in Afghanistan? Why not?
there absolutely fucking should be. I have always maintained that our participation in any activity in the mid east that directly caused civilian deaths should be investigated, and prosecuted if applicable.
Israel has been actively engaged in genocide for decades. But it's somehow ok because you aren't allowed to criticize anything linked to Israel without being called a bigot.
this conflict did not start on Oct 7.
So was October 7th a legitimate military operation? Did it break an existing ceasefire? What would you have Israel do?
And how would you have seen Canada react to 9/11?
I believe these are fair and reasonable questions.
I don't think anyone's called anyone a bigot in this thread thus far so I don't see any relevance in the suggestion.
it's funny what some people consider terrorism, others consider legitimate military operations. all depends which side you're on.
the entire reason this occupation is allowed to stand is because of so-called anti-semitism and the west's need for a powerful ally in the mid east. that's it. everyone says how complicated it is (for those not Israeli/Palestinian). it's not. it's those two reasons. if israel were in africa, not surrounded by countries rich in resources, no one would give a flying fuck about them. zero. nada. zilch.
With no clarification I have to read your first statement here as legitimizing the October 7th attack. Legitimate military operations do not target civilians intentionally, full stop.
Your second statement seems to be saying that the establishment of the state of Israel (more or less in line with its biblical borders) had little to nothing to do with the slaughter of 6 million Jews but was rather a cynical ploy to further destabilize the region? And we've only helped deter the genocide of Israel by its neighbours only because of the access it gives us to oil? Seriously, please clarify what you mean.
I'm not legitimizing anything. it's all action/reaction. so was 9/11. was the slaughter of thousands of american citizens justified? nope. but I understand why it happened.
I give no credence to anything that uses the bible as a reference.
No one is stopping Israel from peacefully being its own state except Israel. the continued genocide of the Palestinian people is what keeps all progress at zero.
When a large part of the discussion is the proportionality of a response and numbers have been used, when those numbers change significantly, then I do see that as absolutely germane to the discussion.
It’s sad that I seemingly need to point everyone back to the last line of my post introducing the revised numbers. The line where I clearly acknowledge that civilian deaths in a war zone have always been and will always be a tragedy.
However, until warfare becomes so targeted that it all occurs via nanobots, there WILL be civilians killed in war.
Is there an equal cry to make us (Canada) face justice for the civilian deaths we caused in Afghanistan? Why not?
there absolutely fucking should be. I have always maintained that our participation in any activity in the mid east that directly caused civilian deaths should be investigated, and prosecuted if applicable.
Israel has been actively engaged in genocide for decades. But it's somehow ok because you aren't allowed to criticize anything linked to Israel without being called a bigot.
this conflict did not start on Oct 7.
So was October 7th a legitimate military operation? Did it break an existing ceasefire? What would you have Israel do?
And how would you have seen Canada react to 9/11?
I believe these are fair and reasonable questions.
I don't think anyone's called anyone a bigot in this thread thus far so I don't see any relevance in the suggestion.
it's funny what some people consider terrorism, others consider legitimate military operations. all depends which side you're on.
the entire reason this occupation is allowed to stand is because of so-called anti-semitism and the west's need for a powerful ally in the mid east. that's it. everyone says how complicated it is (for those not Israeli/Palestinian). it's not. it's those two reasons. if israel were in africa, not surrounded by countries rich in resources, no one would give a flying fuck about them. zero. nada. zilch.
With no clarification I have to read your first statement here as legitimizing the October 7th attack. Legitimate military operations do not target civilians intentionally, full stop.
Your second statement seems to be saying that the establishment of the state of Israel (more or less in line with its biblical borders) had little to nothing to do with the slaughter of 6 million Jews but was rather a cynical ploy to further destabilize the region? And we've only helped deter the genocide of Israel by its neighbours only because of the access it gives us to oil? Seriously, please clarify what you mean.
I'm not legitimizing anything. it's all action/reaction. so was 9/11. was the slaughter of thousands of american citizens justified? nope. but I understand why it happened.
I give no credence to anything that uses the bible as a reference.
No one is stopping Israel from peacefully being its own state except Israel. the continued genocide of the Palestinian people is what keeps all progress at zero.
When you say one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter I believe you have misquoted. I'm thought it was one person's rebel is another's freedom fighter. They stop being freedom fighters or rebels when they intentionally target civilians. Then they are terrorists no matter how just (or understandable) the cause may seem.
You seem to be ignoring quite a bit on the other side of this conflict and only condemning one side here (you're hardly the only one). Which side has openly called for the genocide of the other? Hint, it's not Israel.
If you can't accept a reference that includes the Bible that's irrelevant, what is relevant in this case was the beliefs of the Jewish people. With the benefit of hindsight, what was appropriate way to compensate the Jewish people for the extreme suffering that was inflicted on them by the Nazis and their allies? Cash settlement? The establishment of a Jewish homeland doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Or is the better question where would you have put Israel?
What's stopping Israel from existing peacefully is exactly the several calls for their obliteration in my opinion.
I see many references to Israel's genocide, yet no one's really made the case.
Where are the equally loud calls for Hamas to face justice for their numerous war crimes? As the legitimate government of Gaza, they should be being held to the same standards as the other government involved, regardless how our own government has labeled them.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Time to eat a bit of crow again, it seems you did get the quote correct (so apologies for disputing that), however I do agree with the FBI on this, literally what came up at the very top of my search.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
I wasn't quoting anyone/anything. If what I said was similar to that quote above, it's coincidence. I was stating an opinion based on a firmly held belief the politically indoctrinated will always believe their side is the good guys, no matter what they've done.
When a large part of the discussion is the proportionality of a response and numbers have been used, when those numbers change significantly, then I do see that as absolutely germane to the discussion.
It’s sad that I seemingly need to point everyone back to the last line of my post introducing the revised numbers. The line where I clearly acknowledge that civilian deaths in a war zone have always been and will always be a tragedy.
However, until warfare becomes so targeted that it all occurs via nanobots, there WILL be civilians killed in war.
Is there an equal cry to make us (Canada) face justice for the civilian deaths we caused in Afghanistan? Why not?
there absolutely fucking should be. I have always maintained that our participation in any activity in the mid east that directly caused civilian deaths should be investigated, and prosecuted if applicable.
Israel has been actively engaged in genocide for decades. But it's somehow ok because you aren't allowed to criticize anything linked to Israel without being called a bigot.
this conflict did not start on Oct 7.
So was October 7th a legitimate military operation? Did it break an existing ceasefire? What would you have Israel do?
And how would you have seen Canada react to 9/11?
I believe these are fair and reasonable questions.
I don't think anyone's called anyone a bigot in this thread thus far so I don't see any relevance in the suggestion.
it's funny what some people consider terrorism, others consider legitimate military operations. all depends which side you're on.
the entire reason this occupation is allowed to stand is because of so-called anti-semitism and the west's need for a powerful ally in the mid east. that's it. everyone says how complicated it is (for those not Israeli/Palestinian). it's not. it's those two reasons. if israel were in africa, not surrounded by countries rich in resources, no one would give a flying fuck about them. zero. nada. zilch.
With no clarification I have to read your first statement here as legitimizing the October 7th attack. Legitimate military operations do not target civilians intentionally, full stop.
Your second statement seems to be saying that the establishment of the state of Israel (more or less in line with its biblical borders) had little to nothing to do with the slaughter of 6 million Jews but was rather a cynical ploy to further destabilize the region? And we've only helped deter the genocide of Israel by its neighbours only because of the access it gives us to oil? Seriously, please clarify what you mean.
I'm not legitimizing anything. it's all action/reaction. so was 9/11. was the slaughter of thousands of american citizens justified? nope. but I understand why it happened.
I give no credence to anything that uses the bible as a reference.
No one is stopping Israel from peacefully being its own state except Israel. the continued genocide of the Palestinian people is what keeps all progress at zero.
When you say one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter I believe you have misquoted. I'm thought it was one person's rebel is another's freedom fighter. They stop being freedom fighters or rebels when they intentionally target civilians. Then they are terrorists no matter how just (or understandable) the cause may seem.
You seem to be ignoring quite a bit on the other side of this conflict and only condemning one side here (you're hardly the only one). Which side has openly called for the genocide of the other? Hint, it's not Israel.
If you can't accept a reference that includes the Bible that's irrelevant, what is relevant in this case was the beliefs of the Jewish people. With the benefit of hindsight, what was appropriate way to compensate the Jewish people for the extreme suffering that was inflicted on them by the Nazis and their allies? Cash settlement? The establishment of a Jewish homeland doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Or is the better question where would you have put Israel?
What's stopping Israel from existing peacefully is exactly the several calls for their obliteration in my opinion.
I see many references to Israel's genocide, yet no one's really made the case.
Where are the equally loud calls for Hamas to face justice for their numerous war crimes? As the legitimate government of Gaza, they should be being held to the same standards as the other government involved, regardless how our own government has labeled them.
my issue (and the issue of many others) is that israel's actions keep getting excused no matter what atrocities they perform. "Israel has a right to defend itself". do you consider bombing hospitals and intentionally murdering palenstinian civilians defending itself? bulldozing private property? stealing land and evicting the owners? it's preposterous to me that not only in the face of PROOF of war crimes, and crimes prior to Oct 7 that go against international agreements, people not only excuse it, but celebrate it. it's disgusting.
defending Palestinians does not equal defense of hamas. Yes, they elected hamas in a free election. So did american of GWB Jr. who just so happened to be the murderer of a million iraqi civilians. do I blame all americans for not immediately removing him from office? of course not. that's impossible and absurd. people blaming the murder of Palestinians on their own vote is abhorrent.
When a large part of the discussion is the proportionality of a response and numbers have been used, when those numbers change significantly, then I do see that as absolutely germane to the discussion.
It’s sad that I seemingly need to point everyone back to the last line of my post introducing the revised numbers. The line where I clearly acknowledge that civilian deaths in a war zone have always been and will always be a tragedy.
However, until warfare becomes so targeted that it all occurs via nanobots, there WILL be civilians killed in war.
Is there an equal cry to make us (Canada) face justice for the civilian deaths we caused in Afghanistan? Why not?
there absolutely fucking should be. I have always maintained that our participation in any activity in the mid east that directly caused civilian deaths should be investigated, and prosecuted if applicable.
Israel has been actively engaged in genocide for decades. But it's somehow ok because you aren't allowed to criticize anything linked to Israel without being called a bigot.
this conflict did not start on Oct 7.
So was October 7th a legitimate military operation? Did it break an existing ceasefire? What would you have Israel do?
And how would you have seen Canada react to 9/11?
I believe these are fair and reasonable questions.
I don't think anyone's called anyone a bigot in this thread thus far so I don't see any relevance in the suggestion.
it's funny what some people consider terrorism, others consider legitimate military operations. all depends which side you're on.
the entire reason this occupation is allowed to stand is because of so-called anti-semitism and the west's need for a powerful ally in the mid east. that's it. everyone says how complicated it is (for those not Israeli/Palestinian). it's not. it's those two reasons. if israel were in africa, not surrounded by countries rich in resources, no one would give a flying fuck about them. zero. nada. zilch.
With no clarification I have to read your first statement here as legitimizing the October 7th attack. Legitimate military operations do not target civilians intentionally, full stop.
Your second statement seems to be saying that the establishment of the state of Israel (more or less in line with its biblical borders) had little to nothing to do with the slaughter of 6 million Jews but was rather a cynical ploy to further destabilize the region? And we've only helped deter the genocide of Israel by its neighbours only because of the access it gives us to oil? Seriously, please clarify what you mean.
I'm not legitimizing anything. it's all action/reaction. so was 9/11. was the slaughter of thousands of american citizens justified? nope. but I understand why it happened.
I give no credence to anything that uses the bible as a reference.
No one is stopping Israel from peacefully being its own state except Israel. the continued genocide of the Palestinian people is what keeps all progress at zero.
When you say one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter I believe you have misquoted. I'm thought it was one person's rebel is another's freedom fighter. They stop being freedom fighters or rebels when they intentionally target civilians. Then they are terrorists no matter how just (or understandable) the cause may seem.
You seem to be ignoring quite a bit on the other side of this conflict and only condemning one side here (you're hardly the only one). Which side has openly called for the genocide of the other? Hint, it's not Israel.
If you can't accept a reference that includes the Bible that's irrelevant, what is relevant in this case was the beliefs of the Jewish people. With the benefit of hindsight, what was appropriate way to compensate the Jewish people for the extreme suffering that was inflicted on them by the Nazis and their allies? Cash settlement? The establishment of a Jewish homeland doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Or is the better question where would you have put Israel?
What's stopping Israel from existing peacefully is exactly the several calls for their obliteration in my opinion.
I see many references to Israel's genocide, yet no one's really made the case.
Where are the equally loud calls for Hamas to face justice for their numerous war crimes? As the legitimate government of Gaza, they should be being held to the same standards as the other government involved, regardless how our own government has labeled them.
my issue (and the issue of many others) is that israel's actions keep getting excused no matter what atrocities they perform. "Israel has a right to defend itself". do you consider bombing hospitals and intentionally murdering palenstinian civilians defending itself? bulldozing private property? stealing land and evicting the owners? it's preposterous to me that not only in the face of PROOF of war crimes, and crimes prior to Oct 7 that go against international agreements, people not only excuse it, but celebrate it. it's disgusting.
defending Palestinians does not equal defense of hamas. Yes, they elected hamas in a free election. So did american of GWB Jr. who just so happened to be the murderer of a million iraqi civilians. do I blame all americans for not immediately removing him from office? of course not. that's impossible and absurd. people blaming the murder of Palestinians on their own vote is abhorrent.
I haven’t excused or worse yet celebrated Israel’s actions in this either. And I don’t blame the Palestinian people for anything, I blame Hamas who have abused the people in their care as much or more than Israel was prior to October 7th.
You make a strong claim when you say Israeli forces are intentionally murdering innocent Palestinians and such a claim demands proof I feel. Now, if what that refers to is the settlers that I believe is occurring in the West Bank, that’s a separate thing from the Gaza war in my mind. And the Israel government definitely has questions to answer on that file for seemingly turning a blind eye to the occupiers.
The fact is there was a ceasefire in place on October 6th, and it was broken by a slaughter of civilians. I admit that I probably won’t get past that any time soon. Are there questions for the Israeli government both about intelligence breakdowns that led to Hamas’ successful attack, as well as actions by their military? Absolutely. Shit, they killed 3 of the people they’re trying to rescue I believe.
But the fact can’t be ignored that the only reason hospitals are targeted is because Hamas is using it as a shield.
I’d like to ask you (not specifically, happy to hear answers from anyone), but how would you answer Parksy’s scenario (as modified by me) about someone punching you in the face? I still don’t have a good answer myself beyond continuing to favour a strong response for both preventative and deterrent purposes.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
I wasn't quoting anyone/anything. If what I said was similar to that quote above, it's coincidence. I was stating an opinion based on a firmly held belief the politically indoctrinated will always believe their side is the good guys, no matter what they've done.
I don’t disagree with your belief about each side seeing themselves as the good guys, it’s simple human nature to me, lol.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
I wasn't quoting anyone/anything. If what I said was similar to that quote above, it's coincidence. I was stating an opinion based on a firmly held belief the politically indoctrinated will always believe their side is the good guys, no matter what they've done.
I don’t disagree with your belief about each side seeing themselves as the good guys, it’s simple human nature to me, lol.
It's not human nature. if you can be objective, you won't see it that way.
I wasn't quoting anyone/anything. If what I said was similar to that quote above, it's coincidence. I was stating an opinion based on a firmly held belief the politically indoctrinated will always believe their side is the good guys, no matter what they've done.
I don’t disagree with your belief about each side seeing themselves as the good guys, it’s simple human nature to me, lol.
It's not human nature. if you can be objective, you won't see it that way.
Jesus, I give up on trying to find common ground.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
what did I say that was incorrect? I too was victim to it. I'll give you an example: after 9/11 I was 100% behind the Iraq invasion. Why? EMOTION. I was fucking mad at what happened and wanted blood. Then a friend of mine opened my eyes to it, and I became more objective to the truth.
what did I say that was incorrect? I too was victim to it. I'll give you an example: after 9/11 I was 100% behind the Iraq invasion. Why? EMOTION. I was fucking mad at what happened and wanted blood. Then a friend of mine opened my eyes to it, and I became more objective to the truth.
I assume you meant Afghanistan? If so, please, what do you mean your eyes were opened? I ask because maybe you know some facts of which I am unaware (admittedly it will need to be some clear proofs because to this day I support the invasion of Afghanistan and think Canada still has a debt to that country since we pulled out well before we had completed the job of securing and rebuilding the country). I didn't want blood, I wanted the threat eliminated and (as much as possible) the perpetrators brought to justice. Was I feeling many of the same emotions you were at the time? Absolutely, but I also think that that's the time it's most important to take a step back.
Another caveat I should probably clearly state is that, to a certain extent I make allowances for the so-called fog of war. It doesn't make those incidents acceptable but it needs to be acknowledged just how messy (a poor word) warfare is.
When it comes to the invasion of Iraq, I actually opposed it at the time and was glad to see the Liberal government of the day (under Chretien I believe) keep us out of that war, even though Harper wanted us to join in.
I still think the one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter speaks more to human nature and us all being the heroes of our own stories than it does to any indoctrination. You disagree, fine.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Ok, thank you for clarifying. Fortunately in my head our country’s hands are clean on that one, and therefore it’s been far easier for me to be objective in assessing it.
You yourself admit that your support for that invasion stemmed more from emotion than indoctrination, although your emotions could easily be laid at the feet of indoctrination if one wanted to.
For me there is a difference between the long-term effects of indoctrination and emotions in the heat of the moment. However I do also believe that essentially every single person on this planet is indoctrinated to one extent or another, certainly we’re indoctrinated into believing that democracy is the best system with a good helping of free market capitalism, lol.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
When a large part of the discussion is the proportionality of a response and numbers have been used, when those numbers change significantly, then I do see that as absolutely germane to the discussion.
It’s sad that I seemingly need to point everyone back to the last line of my post introducing the revised numbers. The line where I clearly acknowledge that civilian deaths in a war zone have always been and will always be a tragedy.
However, until warfare becomes so targeted that it all occurs via nanobots, there WILL be civilians killed in war.
Is there an equal cry to make us (Canada) face justice for the civilian deaths we caused in Afghanistan? Why not?
there absolutely fucking should be. I have always maintained that our participation in any activity in the mid east that directly caused civilian deaths should be investigated, and prosecuted if applicable.
Israel has been actively engaged in genocide for decades. But it's somehow ok because you aren't allowed to criticize anything linked to Israel without being called a bigot.
this conflict did not start on Oct 7.
So was October 7th a legitimate military operation? Did it break an existing ceasefire? What would you have Israel do?
And how would you have seen Canada react to 9/11?
I believe these are fair and reasonable questions.
I don't think anyone's called anyone a bigot in this thread thus far so I don't see any relevance in the suggestion.
it's funny what some people consider terrorism, others consider legitimate military operations. all depends which side you're on.
the entire reason this occupation is allowed to stand is because of so-called anti-semitism and the west's need for a powerful ally in the mid east. that's it. everyone says how complicated it is (for those not Israeli/Palestinian). it's not. it's those two reasons. if israel were in africa, not surrounded by countries rich in resources, no one would give a flying fuck about them. zero. nada. zilch.
With no clarification I have to read your first statement here as legitimizing the October 7th attack. Legitimate military operations do not target civilians intentionally, full stop.
Your second statement seems to be saying that the establishment of the state of Israel (more or less in line with its biblical borders) had little to nothing to do with the slaughter of 6 million Jews but was rather a cynical ploy to further destabilize the region? And we've only helped deter the genocide of Israel by its neighbours only because of the access it gives us to oil? Seriously, please clarify what you mean.
I'm not legitimizing anything. it's all action/reaction. so was 9/11. was the slaughter of thousands of american citizens justified? nope. but I understand why it happened.
I give no credence to anything that uses the bible as a reference.
No one is stopping Israel from peacefully being its own state except Israel. the continued genocide of the Palestinian people is what keeps all progress at zero.
When you say one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter I believe you have misquoted. I'm thought it was one person's rebel is another's freedom fighter. They stop being freedom fighters or rebels when they intentionally target civilians. Then they are terrorists no matter how just (or understandable) the cause may seem.
You seem to be ignoring quite a bit on the other side of this conflict and only condemning one side here (you're hardly the only one). Which side has openly called for the genocide of the other? Hint, it's not Israel.
If you can't accept a reference that includes the Bible that's irrelevant, what is relevant in this case was the beliefs of the Jewish people. With the benefit of hindsight, what was appropriate way to compensate the Jewish people for the extreme suffering that was inflicted on them by the Nazis and their allies? Cash settlement? The establishment of a Jewish homeland doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Or is the better question where would you have put Israel?
What's stopping Israel from existing peacefully is exactly the several calls for their obliteration in my opinion.
I see many references to Israel's genocide, yet no one's really made the case.
Where are the equally loud calls for Hamas to face justice for their numerous war crimes? As the legitimate government of Gaza, they should be being held to the same standards as the other government involved, regardless how our own government has labeled them.
my issue (and the issue of many others) is that israel's actions keep getting excused no matter what atrocities they perform. "Israel has a right to defend itself". do you consider bombing hospitals and intentionally murdering palenstinian civilians defending itself? bulldozing private property? stealing land and evicting the owners? it's preposterous to me that not only in the face of PROOF of war crimes, and crimes prior to Oct 7 that go against international agreements, people not only excuse it, but celebrate it. it's disgusting.
defending Palestinians does not equal defense of hamas. Yes, they elected hamas in a free election. So did american of GWB Jr. who just so happened to be the murderer of a million iraqi civilians. do I blame all americans for not immediately removing him from office? of course not. that's impossible and absurd. people blaming the murder of Palestinians on their own vote is abhorrent.
Hey Hugh....I know I'm kinda jumping in here, but do you not believe that Hamas builds military installations above, in and under schools, hospitals etc? Do you not believe that they fire rockets from "safe zones"?
I'm very torn on this whole thing...but if you enemy is fighting by using human shields etc....I am really unsure what I expect the other side to do. It feels like the difference between guerilla warfare and traditional line warfare...if you don't change, you have no shot.
So none of this speaks to the political nature of this issue nor the history, etc. But just in the retaliation attacks by Israel against Hamas. Hamas attacked civilians. Hamas killed, raped, tortured and captured civilians. They aren't freedom fighters by any stretch of that definition. How is Israel to respond?
When a large part of the discussion is the proportionality of a response and numbers have been used, when those numbers change significantly, then I do see that as absolutely germane to the discussion.
It’s sad that I seemingly need to point everyone back to the last line of my post introducing the revised numbers. The line where I clearly acknowledge that civilian deaths in a war zone have always been and will always be a tragedy.
However, until warfare becomes so targeted that it all occurs via nanobots, there WILL be civilians killed in war.
Is there an equal cry to make us (Canada) face justice for the civilian deaths we caused in Afghanistan? Why not?
there absolutely fucking should be. I have always maintained that our participation in any activity in the mid east that directly caused civilian deaths should be investigated, and prosecuted if applicable.
Israel has been actively engaged in genocide for decades. But it's somehow ok because you aren't allowed to criticize anything linked to Israel without being called a bigot.
this conflict did not start on Oct 7.
So was October 7th a legitimate military operation? Did it break an existing ceasefire? What would you have Israel do?
And how would you have seen Canada react to 9/11?
I believe these are fair and reasonable questions.
I don't think anyone's called anyone a bigot in this thread thus far so I don't see any relevance in the suggestion.
it's funny what some people consider terrorism, others consider legitimate military operations. all depends which side you're on.
the entire reason this occupation is allowed to stand is because of so-called anti-semitism and the west's need for a powerful ally in the mid east. that's it. everyone says how complicated it is (for those not Israeli/Palestinian). it's not. it's those two reasons. if israel were in africa, not surrounded by countries rich in resources, no one would give a flying fuck about them. zero. nada. zilch.
With no clarification I have to read your first statement here as legitimizing the October 7th attack. Legitimate military operations do not target civilians intentionally, full stop.
Your second statement seems to be saying that the establishment of the state of Israel (more or less in line with its biblical borders) had little to nothing to do with the slaughter of 6 million Jews but was rather a cynical ploy to further destabilize the region? And we've only helped deter the genocide of Israel by its neighbours only because of the access it gives us to oil? Seriously, please clarify what you mean.
I'm not legitimizing anything. it's all action/reaction. so was 9/11. was the slaughter of thousands of american citizens justified? nope. but I understand why it happened.
I give no credence to anything that uses the bible as a reference.
No one is stopping Israel from peacefully being its own state except Israel. the continued genocide of the Palestinian people is what keeps all progress at zero.
When you say one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter I believe you have misquoted. I'm thought it was one person's rebel is another's freedom fighter. They stop being freedom fighters or rebels when they intentionally target civilians. Then they are terrorists no matter how just (or understandable) the cause may seem.
You seem to be ignoring quite a bit on the other side of this conflict and only condemning one side here (you're hardly the only one). Which side has openly called for the genocide of the other? Hint, it's not Israel.
If you can't accept a reference that includes the Bible that's irrelevant, what is relevant in this case was the beliefs of the Jewish people. With the benefit of hindsight, what was appropriate way to compensate the Jewish people for the extreme suffering that was inflicted on them by the Nazis and their allies? Cash settlement? The establishment of a Jewish homeland doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Or is the better question where would you have put Israel?
What's stopping Israel from existing peacefully is exactly the several calls for their obliteration in my opinion.
I see many references to Israel's genocide, yet no one's really made the case.
Where are the equally loud calls for Hamas to face justice for their numerous war crimes? As the legitimate government of Gaza, they should be being held to the same standards as the other government involved, regardless how our own government has labeled them.
my issue (and the issue of many others) is that israel's actions keep getting excused no matter what atrocities they perform. "Israel has a right to defend itself". do you consider bombing hospitals and intentionally murdering palenstinian civilians defending itself? bulldozing private property? stealing land and evicting the owners? it's preposterous to me that not only in the face of PROOF of war crimes, and crimes prior to Oct 7 that go against international agreements, people not only excuse it, but celebrate it. it's disgusting.
defending Palestinians does not equal defense of hamas. Yes, they elected hamas in a free election. So did american of GWB Jr. who just so happened to be the murderer of a million iraqi civilians. do I blame all americans for not immediately removing him from office? of course not. that's impossible and absurd. people blaming the murder of Palestinians on their own vote is abhorrent.
Hey Hugh....I know I'm kinda jumping in here, but do you not believe that Hamas builds military installations above, in and under schools, hospitals etc? Do you not believe that they fire rockets from "safe zones"?
I'm very torn on this whole thing...but if you enemy is fighting by using human shields etc....I am really unsure what I expect the other side to do. It feels like the difference between guerilla warfare and traditional line warfare...if you don't change, you have no shot.
So none of this speaks to the political nature of this issue nor the history, etc. But just in the retaliation attacks by Israel against Hamas. Hamas attacked civilians. Hamas killed, raped, tortured and captured civilians. They aren't freedom fighters by any stretch of that definition. How is Israel to respond?
yes, hamas do that. they are fucking evil pieces of shit. but sorry, when your enemy uses an innocent life as a shield, you don't fire. PERIOD. I do, believe, however, that this is a convenient excuse for the Israeli government. I think they'd be blowing up hospitals even if hamas wasn't there. they've proven the last 30 years they have no issue with indiscriminately murdering innocents.
When a large part of the discussion is the proportionality of a response and numbers have been used, when those numbers change significantly, then I do see that as absolutely germane to the discussion.
It’s sad that I seemingly need to point everyone back to the last line of my post introducing the revised numbers. The line where I clearly acknowledge that civilian deaths in a war zone have always been and will always be a tragedy.
However, until warfare becomes so targeted that it all occurs via nanobots, there WILL be civilians killed in war.
Is there an equal cry to make us (Canada) face justice for the civilian deaths we caused in Afghanistan? Why not?
there absolutely fucking should be. I have always maintained that our participation in any activity in the mid east that directly caused civilian deaths should be investigated, and prosecuted if applicable.
Israel has been actively engaged in genocide for decades. But it's somehow ok because you aren't allowed to criticize anything linked to Israel without being called a bigot.
this conflict did not start on Oct 7.
So was October 7th a legitimate military operation? Did it break an existing ceasefire? What would you have Israel do?
And how would you have seen Canada react to 9/11?
I believe these are fair and reasonable questions.
I don't think anyone's called anyone a bigot in this thread thus far so I don't see any relevance in the suggestion.
it's funny what some people consider terrorism, others consider legitimate military operations. all depends which side you're on.
the entire reason this occupation is allowed to stand is because of so-called anti-semitism and the west's need for a powerful ally in the mid east. that's it. everyone says how complicated it is (for those not Israeli/Palestinian). it's not. it's those two reasons. if israel were in africa, not surrounded by countries rich in resources, no one would give a flying fuck about them. zero. nada. zilch.
With no clarification I have to read your first statement here as legitimizing the October 7th attack. Legitimate military operations do not target civilians intentionally, full stop.
Your second statement seems to be saying that the establishment of the state of Israel (more or less in line with its biblical borders) had little to nothing to do with the slaughter of 6 million Jews but was rather a cynical ploy to further destabilize the region? And we've only helped deter the genocide of Israel by its neighbours only because of the access it gives us to oil? Seriously, please clarify what you mean.
I'm not legitimizing anything. it's all action/reaction. so was 9/11. was the slaughter of thousands of american citizens justified? nope. but I understand why it happened.
I give no credence to anything that uses the bible as a reference.
No one is stopping Israel from peacefully being its own state except Israel. the continued genocide of the Palestinian people is what keeps all progress at zero.
When you say one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter I believe you have misquoted. I'm thought it was one person's rebel is another's freedom fighter. They stop being freedom fighters or rebels when they intentionally target civilians. Then they are terrorists no matter how just (or understandable) the cause may seem.
You seem to be ignoring quite a bit on the other side of this conflict and only condemning one side here (you're hardly the only one). Which side has openly called for the genocide of the other? Hint, it's not Israel.
If you can't accept a reference that includes the Bible that's irrelevant, what is relevant in this case was the beliefs of the Jewish people. With the benefit of hindsight, what was appropriate way to compensate the Jewish people for the extreme suffering that was inflicted on them by the Nazis and their allies? Cash settlement? The establishment of a Jewish homeland doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Or is the better question where would you have put Israel?
What's stopping Israel from existing peacefully is exactly the several calls for their obliteration in my opinion.
I see many references to Israel's genocide, yet no one's really made the case.
Where are the equally loud calls for Hamas to face justice for their numerous war crimes? As the legitimate government of Gaza, they should be being held to the same standards as the other government involved, regardless how our own government has labeled them.
my issue (and the issue of many others) is that israel's actions keep getting excused no matter what atrocities they perform. "Israel has a right to defend itself". do you consider bombing hospitals and intentionally murdering palenstinian civilians defending itself? bulldozing private property? stealing land and evicting the owners? it's preposterous to me that not only in the face of PROOF of war crimes, and crimes prior to Oct 7 that go against international agreements, people not only excuse it, but celebrate it. it's disgusting.
defending Palestinians does not equal defense of hamas. Yes, they elected hamas in a free election. So did american of GWB Jr. who just so happened to be the murderer of a million iraqi civilians. do I blame all americans for not immediately removing him from office? of course not. that's impossible and absurd. people blaming the murder of Palestinians on their own vote is abhorrent.
Hey Hugh....I know I'm kinda jumping in here, but do you not believe that Hamas builds military installations above, in and under schools, hospitals etc? Do you not believe that they fire rockets from "safe zones"?
I'm very torn on this whole thing...but if you enemy is fighting by using human shields etc....I am really unsure what I expect the other side to do. It feels like the difference between guerilla warfare and traditional line warfare...if you don't change, you have no shot.
So none of this speaks to the political nature of this issue nor the history, etc. But just in the retaliation attacks by Israel against Hamas. Hamas attacked civilians. Hamas killed, raped, tortured and captured civilians. They aren't freedom fighters by any stretch of that definition. How is Israel to respond?
yes, hamas do that. they are fucking evil pieces of shit. but sorry, when your enemy uses an innocent life as a shield, you don't fire. PERIOD. I do, believe, however, that this is a convenient excuse for the Israeli government. I think they'd be blowing up hospitals even if hamas wasn't there. they've proven the last 30 years they have no issue with indiscriminately murdering innocents.
I totally agree with all of that.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
When a large part of the discussion is the proportionality of a response and numbers have been used, when those numbers change significantly, then I do see that as absolutely germane to the discussion.
It’s sad that I seemingly need to point everyone back to the last line of my post introducing the revised numbers. The line where I clearly acknowledge that civilian deaths in a war zone have always been and will always be a tragedy.
However, until warfare becomes so targeted that it all occurs via nanobots, there WILL be civilians killed in war.
Is there an equal cry to make us (Canada) face justice for the civilian deaths we caused in Afghanistan? Why not?
there absolutely fucking should be. I have always maintained that our participation in any activity in the mid east that directly caused civilian deaths should be investigated, and prosecuted if applicable.
Israel has been actively engaged in genocide for decades. But it's somehow ok because you aren't allowed to criticize anything linked to Israel without being called a bigot.
this conflict did not start on Oct 7.
So was October 7th a legitimate military operation? Did it break an existing ceasefire? What would you have Israel do?
And how would you have seen Canada react to 9/11?
I believe these are fair and reasonable questions.
I don't think anyone's called anyone a bigot in this thread thus far so I don't see any relevance in the suggestion.
it's funny what some people consider terrorism, others consider legitimate military operations. all depends which side you're on.
the entire reason this occupation is allowed to stand is because of so-called anti-semitism and the west's need for a powerful ally in the mid east. that's it. everyone says how complicated it is (for those not Israeli/Palestinian). it's not. it's those two reasons. if israel were in africa, not surrounded by countries rich in resources, no one would give a flying fuck about them. zero. nada. zilch.
With no clarification I have to read your first statement here as legitimizing the October 7th attack. Legitimate military operations do not target civilians intentionally, full stop.
Your second statement seems to be saying that the establishment of the state of Israel (more or less in line with its biblical borders) had little to nothing to do with the slaughter of 6 million Jews but was rather a cynical ploy to further destabilize the region? And we've only helped deter the genocide of Israel by its neighbours only because of the access it gives us to oil? Seriously, please clarify what you mean.
I'm not legitimizing anything. it's all action/reaction. so was 9/11. was the slaughter of thousands of american citizens justified? nope. but I understand why it happened.
I give no credence to anything that uses the bible as a reference.
No one is stopping Israel from peacefully being its own state except Israel. the continued genocide of the Palestinian people is what keeps all progress at zero.
When you say one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter I believe you have misquoted. I'm thought it was one person's rebel is another's freedom fighter. They stop being freedom fighters or rebels when they intentionally target civilians. Then they are terrorists no matter how just (or understandable) the cause may seem.
You seem to be ignoring quite a bit on the other side of this conflict and only condemning one side here (you're hardly the only one). Which side has openly called for the genocide of the other? Hint, it's not Israel.
If you can't accept a reference that includes the Bible that's irrelevant, what is relevant in this case was the beliefs of the Jewish people. With the benefit of hindsight, what was appropriate way to compensate the Jewish people for the extreme suffering that was inflicted on them by the Nazis and their allies? Cash settlement? The establishment of a Jewish homeland doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Or is the better question where would you have put Israel?
What's stopping Israel from existing peacefully is exactly the several calls for their obliteration in my opinion.
I see many references to Israel's genocide, yet no one's really made the case.
Where are the equally loud calls for Hamas to face justice for their numerous war crimes? As the legitimate government of Gaza, they should be being held to the same standards as the other government involved, regardless how our own government has labeled them.
my issue (and the issue of many others) is that israel's actions keep getting excused no matter what atrocities they perform. "Israel has a right to defend itself". do you consider bombing hospitals and intentionally murdering palenstinian civilians defending itself? bulldozing private property? stealing land and evicting the owners? it's preposterous to me that not only in the face of PROOF of war crimes, and crimes prior to Oct 7 that go against international agreements, people not only excuse it, but celebrate it. it's disgusting.
defending Palestinians does not equal defense of hamas. Yes, they elected hamas in a free election. So did american of GWB Jr. who just so happened to be the murderer of a million iraqi civilians. do I blame all americans for not immediately removing him from office? of course not. that's impossible and absurd. people blaming the murder of Palestinians on their own vote is abhorrent.
Hey Hugh....I know I'm kinda jumping in here, but do you not believe that Hamas builds military installations above, in and under schools, hospitals etc? Do you not believe that they fire rockets from "safe zones"?
I'm very torn on this whole thing...but if you enemy is fighting by using human shields etc....I am really unsure what I expect the other side to do. It feels like the difference between guerilla warfare and traditional line warfare...if you don't change, you have no shot.
So none of this speaks to the political nature of this issue nor the history, etc. But just in the retaliation attacks by Israel against Hamas. Hamas attacked civilians. Hamas killed, raped, tortured and captured civilians. They aren't freedom fighters by any stretch of that definition. How is Israel to respond?
yes, hamas do that. they are fucking evil pieces of shit. but sorry, when your enemy uses an innocent life as a shield, you don't fire. PERIOD. I do, believe, however, that this is a convenient excuse for the Israeli government. I think they'd be blowing up hospitals even if hamas wasn't there. they've proven the last 30 years they have no issue with indiscriminately murdering innocents.
I totally agree with all of that.
We’ve established what Israel CANNOT do, could someone, anyone, say what they CAN do to respond to the barbarism of October 7th?
Edit: Here’s my answer. At this point, given the parameters set (so far) on Israel in this very thread, they only have one option as I see it: full-scale land invasion with martial law declared as the surface is secured first then the tunnels. It will be an even bloodier event (I suspect) with fighting happening house-to-house and room-to-room. Once a government is in place that will be a true partner in peace is when Israel relinquishes control of the territory of Gaza.
I now await a better option if there is one. And believe me, I would love to hear something practical that would achieve peace.
Post edited by DarthMaeglin on
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Comments
And how would you have seen Canada react to 9/11?
I believe these are fair and reasonable questions.
I don't think anyone's called anyone a bigot in this thread thus far so I don't see any relevance in the suggestion.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
the entire reason this occupation is allowed to stand is because of so-called anti-semitism and the west's need for a powerful ally in the mid east. that's it. everyone says how complicated it is (for those not Israeli/Palestinian). it's not. it's those two reasons. if israel were in africa, not surrounded by countries rich in resources, no one would give a flying fuck about them. zero. nada. zilch.
www.headstonesband.com
I'll be perfectly honest I don't really understand what you mean by your second paragraph.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
UN says total number of deaths in Gaza remains unchanged after controversy over revised data
The United Nations on Monday clarified that the overall number of fatalities in Gaza tallied by the Ministry of Health in Gaza remains unchanged, at more than 35,000, since the war broke out between Israel and Hamas on Oct. 7.
The clarification comes after the UN humanitarian agency OCHA (United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs) published a report on May 8 with revised data regarding the number of Palestinian casualties in the war. The UN agency in its report reduced the number of women and children believed to have been killed in the war by nearly half.The number was reduced because the UN says it is now relying on the number of deceased women and children whose names and other identifying details have been fully documented, rather than the total number of women and children killed. The ministry says bodies that arrive at hospitals get counted in the overall death count.
UN spokesperson Farhan Haq told a daily briefing at the UN that the health ministry in Gaza recently published two separate death tolls – an overall death toll and a total number of identified fatalities. In the UN report, only the total number of fatalities whose identities (such as name and date of birth) have been documented was published, leading to confusion.
According to Haq, the ministry published a breakdown for 24,686 fully identified deaths out of the total 34,622 fatalities recorded in Gaza as of April 30. The fully identified death toll comprises of 7,797 children, 4,959 women, 1,924 elderly, and 10,006 men, the UN spokesperson said, citing the Gaza health ministry.
The health authority in Gaza noted that the documentation process of casualties’ full identification details is still ongoing, Haq added.
Two officials from the Palestinian Ministry of Health have told CNN that although the ministry keeps a separate death toll for identified and unidentified individuals, the total number of people killed remains unchanged.The total number of dead also does not include the approximately 10,000 people who are still missing and trapped under the rubble, the officials added.
Israel launched its military assault on Gaza on Oct. 7 after the militant group Hamas, which governs Gaza, killed at least 1,200 people in Israel and abducted more than 250 others. Israel’s months-long siege of the Palestinian enclave has since pulverized large parts of Gaza and drastically diminished critical supplies, exposing the entire population of more than 2.2 million people to the risk of famine.
CNN has seen a daily report from the Palestinian health ministry which matches the number OCHA published in the revised version. A total of 15,103 children and 9,961 women have been killed in Gaza since Oct. 7, the Gaza ministry of health said in its latest report.
Both the UN and U.S. officials have previously appraised the figures from the Ministry of Health in Gaza as credible.
CNN cannot independently verify the ministry’s numbers. The ministry does not distinguish between casualties among fighters and civilians.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
What's happening to me is in line with the 'woke' - 'anti-woke' rhetoric of late.
If your Fox News etc. then the protests are disgusting and you stand against it. You see people protesting in support of Palestinians and instantly they're pro-Hamas.
(If you want, The Daily Show put out a VERY VERY VERY glaring clip of how Fox News reacted to our Freedom Convoy compared to the war in Gaza) Darth.. I highly recommend watching. You'll see the blatant hypocrisy on display.
This discussion at times, and whether it's me or it's darth turns into a what aboutism conversation. And on one side, Darth, you're suggesting 'well.. what about Canada' yadda yadda.
Thing is... you're not wrong, and we agree with you. I think all of the 'woke' people and the protesters agree as well.
I think Canada for the most part is one of the finest countries in the world but we're certainly not without fault or guilt in many ways. I have no problem reconciling that and admitting those mistakes.
This is what separates me from a lot of people in the States.
Their history is littered with atrocities. From the very beginning of their existence all the way to today. On one hand claiming to be the land of the free... the protectors of freedom... the shining light and beacon of civility. While on the other hand not giving two shits about the rest of the world, killing civilians, quelling rebellions, supporting proxy wars.
Nothing was ever questionable. Is USA great? Yes. And no other answer is acceptable. Ask Fox News.
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
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Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
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10C: 220xxx
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We haven't even touched on the campus protests here and some of the issues that have been reported at those camps. By the way, aren't they occupying a place and therefore subject to the Emergencies Act? (That question is only half-joking sadly. )
I completely agree with you on how you view our own country, very well put, thank you.
My own view on the US is that they are a work in progress, but overall an ideal worth pursuing. Do they currently have issues and a sometimes problematic history? For sure, but again I'll call them a work in progress, just like every nation on the planet.
I suspect many here would lump me in as living in Fox News country. Having spent a couple months in a Fox News household, I'm honestly not sure I should call myself a Conservative anymore, even if they remain the party I'm most likely to vote for, lol.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Your second statement seems to be saying that the establishment of the state of Israel (more or less in line with its biblical borders) had little to nothing to do with the slaughter of 6 million Jews but was rather a cynical ploy to further destabilize the region? And we've only helped deter the genocide of Israel by its neighbours only because of the access it gives us to oil? Seriously, please clarify what you mean.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
I give no credence to anything that uses the bible as a reference.
No one is stopping Israel from peacefully being its own state except Israel. the continued genocide of the Palestinian people is what keeps all progress at zero.
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You seem to be ignoring quite a bit on the other side of this conflict and only condemning one side here (you're hardly the only one). Which side has openly called for the genocide of the other? Hint, it's not Israel.
If you can't accept a reference that includes the Bible that's irrelevant, what is relevant in this case was the beliefs of the Jewish people. With the benefit of hindsight, what was appropriate way to compensate the Jewish people for the extreme suffering that was inflicted on them by the Nazis and their allies? Cash settlement? The establishment of a Jewish homeland doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Or is the better question where would you have put Israel?
What's stopping Israel from existing peacefully is exactly the several calls for their obliteration in my opinion.
I see many references to Israel's genocide, yet no one's really made the case.
Where are the equally loud calls for Hamas to face justice for their numerous war crimes? As the legitimate government of Gaza, they should be being held to the same standards as the other government involved, regardless how our own government has labeled them.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
www.headstonesband.com
defending Palestinians does not equal defense of hamas. Yes, they elected hamas in a free election. So did american of GWB Jr. who just so happened to be the murderer of a million iraqi civilians. do I blame all americans for not immediately removing him from office? of course not. that's impossible and absurd. people blaming the murder of Palestinians on their own vote is abhorrent.
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You make a strong claim when you say Israeli forces are intentionally murdering innocent Palestinians and such a claim demands proof I feel. Now, if what that refers to is the settlers that I believe is occurring in the West Bank, that’s a separate thing from the Gaza war in my mind. And the Israel government definitely has questions to answer on that file for seemingly turning a blind eye to the occupiers.
The fact is there was a ceasefire in place on October 6th, and it was broken by a slaughter of civilians. I admit that I probably won’t get past that any time soon. Are there questions for the Israeli government both about intelligence breakdowns that led to Hamas’ successful attack, as well as actions by their military? Absolutely. Shit, they killed 3 of the people they’re trying to rescue I believe.
But the fact can’t be ignored that the only reason hospitals are targeted is because Hamas is using it as a shield.
I’d like to ask you (not specifically, happy to hear answers from anyone), but how would you answer Parksy’s scenario (as modified by me) about someone punching you in the face? I still don’t have a good answer myself beyond continuing to favour a strong response for both preventative and deterrent purposes.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
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10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
www.headstonesband.com
Another caveat I should probably clearly state is that, to a certain extent I make allowances for the so-called fog of war. It doesn't make those incidents acceptable but it needs to be acknowledged just how messy (a poor word) warfare is.
When it comes to the invasion of Iraq, I actually opposed it at the time and was glad to see the Liberal government of the day (under Chretien I believe) keep us out of that war, even though Harper wanted us to join in.
I still think the one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter speaks more to human nature and us all being the heroes of our own stories than it does to any indoctrination. You disagree, fine.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
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You yourself admit that your support for that invasion stemmed more from emotion than indoctrination, although your emotions could easily be laid at the feet of indoctrination if one wanted to.
For me there is a difference between the long-term effects of indoctrination and emotions in the heat of the moment. However I do also believe that essentially every single person on this planet is indoctrinated to one extent or another, certainly we’re indoctrinated into believing that democracy is the best system with a good helping of free market capitalism, lol.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
I'm very torn on this whole thing...but if you enemy is fighting by using human shields etc....I am really unsure what I expect the other side to do. It feels like the difference between guerilla warfare and traditional line warfare...if you don't change, you have no shot.
So none of this speaks to the political nature of this issue nor the history, etc. But just in the retaliation attacks by Israel against Hamas. Hamas attacked civilians. Hamas killed, raped, tortured and captured civilians. They aren't freedom fighters by any stretch of that definition. How is Israel to respond?
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-government-reject-toronot-decriminalization-1.7208335
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/speaker-fergus-faces-new-calls-to-resign-after-partisan-language-used-in-ad-for-local-event
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Edit: Here’s my answer. At this point, given the parameters set (so far) on Israel in this very thread, they only have one option as I see it: full-scale land invasion with martial law declared as the surface is secured first then the tunnels. It will be an even bloodier event (I suspect) with fighting happening house-to-house and room-to-room. Once a government is in place that will be a true partner in peace is when Israel relinquishes control of the territory of Gaza.
I now await a better option if there is one. And believe me, I would love to hear something practical that would achieve peace.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022