Canadian Politics Redux

DarthMaeglin

PJ_Soul said:

So what is the real controversy here, out of curiosity? Do people now think Trudeau is actually a racist? Are they just really upset that he did some offensive things 18+ years ago and want him to somehow suffer or pay for it now? Do they think the behaviour will be repeated now? Do they think the fact he had no qualms about doing this back then means that he would do similar things now? I'm genuinely not too sure what to think myself about this.... It really depends on how minorities feel about it, and why. I don't think I care very much about what white people think outside of how it will affect their vote (anything I say about it is equally meaningless, lol). I don't think there is a single non-white person who posts on the AMT though. If I'm wrong, and someone who isn't white is posting here, I'd love to hear from you. But only if it's a non-partisan perspective. I agree with HFD (who I think has me on ignore) that the people who are the most upset are white partisans who want this to win Scheer the election. But again, I need to hear from non-white non-partisans to really understand the impact of this.

I would like to mention, though, when it comes to this discussion about partisanship, I strongly feel that I wouldn't be thinking any differently if this were Scheer, under all the exact same circumstances... Where I would have a real knee jerk reaction would be if a known racist was found to have been doing this because they're racist. I don't believe that is the case here.... Do others think so? Is Trudeau racist? Was he racist then, and did these things with a derogatory mindset? Was his intention to mock minorities? Or did he just do this out of sheer ignorance at the time with no intention of mocking? I don't know. Context is everything. But I feel a bit in the dark. Dark face is such a foreign thing to me I don't know what to make of it unless it is a racist doing it in a racist context.

Will this sink Trudeau in the election? ..... I actually doubt this will have a lasting effect on the poll numbers, but we'll see, obviously. My #1 concern is and will continue to be that Scheer doesn't win. That this could help him win is what I'm most worried about, not Trudeau's dumbassery back in the day.

Speaking to the bolded question, doesn't this somewhat reframe his behaviour during the infamous trip to India?

PJ_Soul

DarthMaeglin said:

PJ_Soul said:

So what is the real controversy here, out of curiosity? Do people now think Trudeau is actually a racist? Are they just really upset that he did some offensive things 18+ years ago and want him to somehow suffer or pay for it now? Do they think the behaviour will be repeated now? Do they think the fact he had no qualms about doing this back then means that he would do similar things now? I'm genuinely not too sure what to think myself about this.... It really depends on how minorities feel about it, and why. I don't think I care very much about what white people think outside of how it will affect their vote (anything I say about it is equally meaningless, lol). I don't think there is a single non-white person who posts on the AMT though. If I'm wrong, and someone who isn't white is posting here, I'd love to hear from you. But only if it's a non-partisan perspective. I agree with HFD (who I think has me on ignore) that the people who are the most upset are white partisans who want this to win Scheer the election. But again, I need to hear from non-white non-partisans to really understand the impact of this.

I would like to mention, though, when it comes to this discussion about partisanship, I strongly feel that I wouldn't be thinking any differently if this were Scheer, under all the exact same circumstances... Where I would have a real knee jerk reaction would be if a known racist was found to have been doing this because they're racist. I don't believe that is the case here.... Do others think so? Is Trudeau racist? Was he racist then, and did these things with a derogatory mindset? Was his intention to mock minorities? Or did he just do this out of sheer ignorance at the time with no intention of mocking? I don't know. Context is everything. But I feel a bit in the dark. Dark face is such a foreign thing to me I don't know what to make of it unless it is a racist doing it in a racist context.

Will this sink Trudeau in the election? ..... I actually doubt this will have a lasting effect on the poll numbers, but we'll see, obviously. My #1 concern is and will continue to be that Scheer doesn't win. That this could help him win is what I'm most worried about, not Trudeau's dumbassery back in the day.

Speaking to the bolded question, doesn't this somewhat reframe his behaviour during the infamous trip to India?

I don't think so. I think he and his family did that out of respect and enthusiasm. It was met with some hilarity in India because they went so overboard with it. It wasn't offensive to Indians as far as I ever heard.

DarthMaeglin

PJ_Soul said:

DarthMaeglin said:

PJ_Soul said:

So what is the real controversy here, out of curiosity? Do people now think Trudeau is actually a racist? Are they just really upset that he did some offensive things 18+ years ago and want him to somehow suffer or pay for it now? Do they think the behaviour will be repeated now? Do they think the fact he had no qualms about doing this back then means that he would do similar things now? I'm genuinely not too sure what to think myself about this.... It really depends on how minorities feel about it, and why. I don't think I care very much about what white people think outside of how it will affect their vote (anything I say about it is equally meaningless, lol). I don't think there is a single non-white person who posts on the AMT though. If I'm wrong, and someone who isn't white is posting here, I'd love to hear from you. But only if it's a non-partisan perspective. I agree with HFD (who I think has me on ignore) that the people who are the most upset are white partisans who want this to win Scheer the election. But again, I need to hear from non-white non-partisans to really understand the impact of this.

I would like to mention, though, when it comes to this discussion about partisanship, I strongly feel that I wouldn't be thinking any differently if this were Scheer, under all the exact same circumstances... Where I would have a real knee jerk reaction would be if a known racist was found to have been doing this because they're racist. I don't believe that is the case here.... Do others think so? Is Trudeau racist? Was he racist then, and did these things with a derogatory mindset? Was his intention to mock minorities? Or did he just do this out of sheer ignorance at the time with no intention of mocking? I don't know. Context is everything. But I feel a bit in the dark. Dark face is such a foreign thing to me I don't know what to make of it unless it is a racist doing it in a racist context.

Will this sink Trudeau in the election? ..... I actually doubt this will have a lasting effect on the poll numbers, but we'll see, obviously. My #1 concern is and will continue to be that Scheer doesn't win. That this could help him win is what I'm most worried about, not Trudeau's dumbassery back in the day.

Speaking to the bolded question, doesn't this somewhat reframe his behaviour during the infamous trip to India?

I don't think so. I think he and his family did that out of respect and enthusiasm. It was met with some hilarity in India because they went so overboard with it. It wasn't offensive to Indians as far as I ever heard.

I agree with the enthusiasm aspect, especially since he admitted that tendency in his scrum last night.  Respect is much more subjective, however.  As a non-Indian, it came off as goofy at best to me.

PJ_Soul

DarthMaeglin said:

PJ_Soul said:

DarthMaeglin said:

PJ_Soul said:

So what is the real controversy here, out of curiosity? Do people now think Trudeau is actually a racist? Are they just really upset that he did some offensive things 18+ years ago and want him to somehow suffer or pay for it now? Do they think the behaviour will be repeated now? Do they think the fact he had no qualms about doing this back then means that he would do similar things now? I'm genuinely not too sure what to think myself about this.... It really depends on how minorities feel about it, and why. I don't think I care very much about what white people think outside of how it will affect their vote (anything I say about it is equally meaningless, lol). I don't think there is a single non-white person who posts on the AMT though. If I'm wrong, and someone who isn't white is posting here, I'd love to hear from you. But only if it's a non-partisan perspective. I agree with HFD (who I think has me on ignore) that the people who are the most upset are white partisans who want this to win Scheer the election. But again, I need to hear from non-white non-partisans to really understand the impact of this.

I would like to mention, though, when it comes to this discussion about partisanship, I strongly feel that I wouldn't be thinking any differently if this were Scheer, under all the exact same circumstances... Where I would have a real knee jerk reaction would be if a known racist was found to have been doing this because they're racist. I don't believe that is the case here.... Do others think so? Is Trudeau racist? Was he racist then, and did these things with a derogatory mindset? Was his intention to mock minorities? Or did he just do this out of sheer ignorance at the time with no intention of mocking? I don't know. Context is everything. But I feel a bit in the dark. Dark face is such a foreign thing to me I don't know what to make of it unless it is a racist doing it in a racist context.

Will this sink Trudeau in the election? ..... I actually doubt this will have a lasting effect on the poll numbers, but we'll see, obviously. My #1 concern is and will continue to be that Scheer doesn't win. That this could help him win is what I'm most worried about, not Trudeau's dumbassery back in the day.

Speaking to the bolded question, doesn't this somewhat reframe his behaviour during the infamous trip to India?

I don't think so. I think he and his family did that out of respect and enthusiasm. It was met with some hilarity in India because they went so overboard with it. It wasn't offensive to Indians as far as I ever heard.

I agree with the enthusiasm aspect, especially since he admitted that tendency in his scrum last night.  Respect is much more subjective, however.  As a non-Indian, it came off as goofy at best to me.

Well, it came off as goofy to Indians too I believe. But so what? I don't have a problem with goofiness as a side effect of enthusiasm and intended respect. For me it's the intention that matters most (if Trudeau was consistently a clown internationally, that would be different. But he isn't. India trip aside, he actually has a really really positive reputation internationally). That is why I said that my main consideration with the face painting is whether or not there was racist/derogatory intent behind it. I think that makes a big HUGE difference, at least when looking at it being done 18 years ago at the latest. In this case... I don't believe that Trudeau is racist at all. Was he in the past??? I have no idea. I doubt it, but it's possible. What seems more likely is that he loved to get into costume. He was a drama teacher, and he hammed it up back then quite a bit. I think he was just a guy into acting who loved to dress up in costume whenever he saw the opportunity to do so, and unfortunately wasn't clued in to the fact that it's not appropriate to include skin colour in costumes. I think that all evidence points to that theory.

DarthMaeglin

Usually it's 3 strikes you're out.  I don't necessarily agree with Kinsella's characterization of the newest video (only because it's so brief), but he makes the good point that in today's environment (here come the "it was in the past" counterarguments, lol) we should all be offended by this behaviour, whether one's black, brown, yellow, white or purple with pink polkadots.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/kinsella-trudeau-traded-in-the-foulest-racist-stereotypes

Quick edit: Kinsella is a longtime Liberal.

Further edit:  Once is an accident, twice is a mistake, three times is a pattern.  In my opinion, again.

HughFreakingDillon

DarthMaeglin said:

Usually it's 3 strikes you're out.  I don't necessarily agree with Kinsella's characterization of the newest video (only because it's so brief), but he makes the good point that in today's environment (here come the "it was in the past" counterarguments, lol) we should all be offended by this behaviour, whether one's black, brown, yellow, white or purple with pink polkadots.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/kinsella-trudeau-traded-in-the-foulest-racist-stereotypes

Quick edit: Kinsella is a longtime Liberal.

"he’s the scum of the Earth". jesus. drama much?

I'll wait to hear his explanation about this one. 

PJ_Soul

DarthMaeglin said:

Usually it's 3 strikes you're out.  I don't necessarily agree with Kinsella's characterization of the newest video (only because it's so brief), but he makes the good point that in today's environment (here come the "it was in the past" counterarguments, lol) we should all be offended by this behaviour, whether one's black, brown, yellow, white or purple with pink polkadots.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/kinsella-trudeau-traded-in-the-foulest-racist-stereotypes

Quick edit: Kinsella is a longtime Liberal.

I mean.... it is offensive. Now. Yes indeed, here come the "it was in the past" counterarguments. Is that argument not a valid one? I think it is just as valid as what the intent/motivation was behind the costumes. But yeah, anyone saying it's literally not offensive to go in brown or black face is being stupid at best. Of course it is. But I didn't think whether or not doing that is offensive to people now was the question.

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Usually it's 3 strikes you're out.  I don't necessarily agree with Kinsella's characterization of the newest video (only because it's so brief), but he makes the good point that in today's environment (here come the "it was in the past" counterarguments, lol) we should all be offended by this behaviour, whether one's black, brown, yellow, white or purple with pink polkadots.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/kinsella-trudeau-traded-in-the-foulest-racist-stereotypes

Quick edit: Kinsella is a longtime Liberal.

"he’s the scum of the Earth". jesus. drama much?

I'll wait to hear his explanation about this one. 

He's due to speak in about 5 minutes, and believe me, I'm all ears for a good explanation.  He's in your city right now, no less.

DarthMaeglin

One of my biggest questions on this (not for Trudeau) is where were these pictures and videos 4 years ago?  It's also disappointing this came to our attention from south of the border, but as the pundits on CP24 are saying right now, it often comes down to personal relationships with someone in the news organization.

dignin

DarthMaeglin said:

Usually it's 3 strikes you're out.  I don't necessarily agree with Kinsella's characterization of the newest video (only because it's so brief), but he makes the good point that in today's environment (here come the "it was in the past" counterarguments, lol) we should all be offended by this behaviour, whether one's black, brown, yellow, white or purple with pink polkadots.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/kinsella-trudeau-traded-in-the-foulest-racist-stereotypes

Quick edit: Kinsella is a longtime Liberal.

Further edit:  Once is an accident, twice is a mistake, three times is a pattern.  In my opinion, again.

That article is absolute trash. No surprise coming from the Sun.

He says in it that Trudeau was acting like an ape in blackface, as a matter of fact. I don't see it, and it's at least highly debatable.

HughFreakingDillon

dignin said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Usually it's 3 strikes you're out.  I don't necessarily agree with Kinsella's characterization of the newest video (only because it's so brief), but he makes the good point that in today's environment (here come the "it was in the past" counterarguments, lol) we should all be offended by this behaviour, whether one's black, brown, yellow, white or purple with pink polkadots.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/kinsella-trudeau-traded-in-the-foulest-racist-stereotypes

Quick edit: Kinsella is a longtime Liberal.

Further edit:  Once is an accident, twice is a mistake, three times is a pattern.  In my opinion, again.

That article is absolute trash. No surprise coming from the Sun.

He says in it that Trudeau was acting like an ape in blackface, as a matter of fact. I don't see it, and it's at least highly debatable.

yeah, as I was reading I had a look at the link and realized "yup, the fucking sun". the fox news of canadian print. 

DarthMaeglin

dignin said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Usually it's 3 strikes you're out.  I don't necessarily agree with Kinsella's characterization of the newest video (only because it's so brief), but he makes the good point that in today's environment (here come the "it was in the past" counterarguments, lol) we should all be offended by this behaviour, whether one's black, brown, yellow, white or purple with pink polkadots.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/kinsella-trudeau-traded-in-the-foulest-racist-stereotypes

Quick edit: Kinsella is a longtime Liberal.

Further edit:  Once is an accident, twice is a mistake, three times is a pattern.  In my opinion, again.

That article is absolute trash. No surprise coming from the Sun.

He says in it that Trudeau was acting like an ape in blackface, as a matter of fact. I don't see it, and it's at least highly debatable.

He could just as easily be cheering the winners of a canoe race from the presented video, to be fair.  But he blackened his knees?

HughFreakingDillon

live feed to news conference: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-trudeau-brownface-election-2019-1.5289421

didn't even know he was going to be so close to my work today. 

HughFreakingDillon

he's a half hour late. 

DarthMaeglin

Here he comes.

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

dignin said:

Meltdown99 said:

Please put me ignore.  Your anger is caused by you and your silly comment.  The only people voting for Trudeau are the families on child benefit welfare system...

Meltdown99 said:

I especially love the con job of helping first time home buyers buy homes by taking equity in their homes.  Only a fool would ever give up equity in a home to the government...

Your ignorance is on full display here. Both in your shallow understanding behind how people vote and first time home buyers.

Not to mention the Sept 11th thread, where you make Canadians look like jerks. There is a time and a place.

I find it quite ironic that everyone says canadians are friendly. I have three people on ignore: all 3 are fellow canadians. 

I think I'm one of those 3, and I'm super friendly, so I'm not sure that who HFD ignores is the best way to measure Canadian friendliness, ha!

HughFreakingDillon

not that I ever look to rockstars to form opinions, but given that he championed JT from the start, even talked about him at the Hip's last ever show, I think it would have been interesting to hear what Gord Downie's opinion would have been about this. 

HughFreakingDillon

I believe he regrets it. I believe he isn't racist. And I believe he's the only choice. 

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

I believe he regrets it. I believe he isn't racist. And I believe he's the only choice. 

I'm guessing that will be the general consensus, but I had a couple different takeaways:

Our Prime Minister has a very selective memory.

There may be more of these incidents floating around.

He was in part inadvertently racist because we're all subconsciously racist.

He actually owned his privileged upbringing.


I think I've probably said more than enough on this, so I'll give you guys a break from my ramblings/rants.  Time to go add something to the "What am I listening to now" thread, lol.

HughFreakingDillon

DarthMaeglin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I believe he regrets it. I believe he isn't racist. And I believe he's the only choice. 

I'm guessing that will be the general consensus, but I had a couple different takeaways:

Our Prime Minister has a very selective memory.

There may be more of these incidents floating around.

He was in part inadvertently racist because we're all subconsciously racist.

He actually owned his privileged upbringing.


I think I've probably said more than enough on this, so I'll give you guys a break from my ramblings/rants.  Time to go add something to the "What am I listening to now" thread, lol.

I was kind of surprised how often he mentioned his privileged upbringing. I guess it's a good way to "excuse" it in a way, but it is risky in that you lose connection with voters that think you can't identify with them. 

Which is worse for him politically do you think? blackface or SNC lavellin?