.

rgambs

I hope my post doesn't sound like I am trying to belittle or invalidate your story! I am only trying to say that even as intensely personal as the decision is, the debate should be less so.

rr165892

rgambs said:

I hope my post doesn't sound like I am trying to belittle or invalidate your story! I am only trying to say that even as intensely personal as the decision is, the debate should be less so.

Do you think your recent little bundle of joy has altered your opinions on this subject.I would think it must to a certain extent.

rgambs

rr165892 said:

show previous quotes

rgambs said:

I hope my post doesn't sound like I am trying to belittle or invalidate your story! I am only trying to say that even as intensely personal as the decision is, the debate should be less so.

Do you think your recent little bundle of joy has altered your opinions on this subject.I would think it must to a certain extent.

Yes, it made me more pro-life AND more pro-choice lol

At the time we found out we were pregnant we had literally decided that very day we were going to hike the PCT and AT and live in a much less rooted, more free way. I was also experiencing a brief but powerful bout of depression and anxiety so there was a definiteget ou d urge to terminate the pregnancy for me. We always planned to have kids and we have the means to do so, so it would be very selfish to terminate it. The yearning for freedom, then and now, makes me sympathize with those women who aren't in a position, and don't have the desire to be encumbered by another life.
Once you have a child, there is no going back, and the love is so intense it can be rather weighty at times.

Last-12-Exit

rgambs said:

show previous quotes

what dreams said:

PJ_Soul said:

JimmyV said:

I refuse to label myself Pro-choice or Pro-Life. Both are just soundbyte labels that oversimplify a complex issue.

I believe that safe, legal and rare abortion should be available to women who need it. No one should have to cross state lines to get the procedure. No one should have to turn to some black market "doctor" either.

I think we do a disservice to young girls when we push this idea that "it's not a child, it's a choice."

I remember how horrifying it was to dispense the morning after pill when I worked as a pharmacy tech in highly impoverished Holyoke, MA. Not because I have a problem with the pill - I'm glad that a prescription is no longer needed here in Massachusetts. What horrified me was that these young girls, these kids, would come in with a prescription for it...and the doctors would write them with a refill option. No education, just a quick scribble on a paper to keep them out of the doctors' hair next time. Just one more of the many ways the children of that town were underserved.

I don't know if life begins at conception. I can honestly say I don't know when life begins. But I don't believe abortion is murder.

I don't see how "pro-choice" is an over-simplification. It's perfectly simple, not overly. It is actually not a complex issue at all. A woman can choose what she does with her own body and anything that's inside it. That's it. Super simple. Everything else is just noise IMO.

I don't understand why you would have any emotion about giving out the morning after pill, let alone be horrified. When that is used the egg isn't even fertilized. It is not much different that selling a box of condoms.

I'm pro-choice. I've had an abortion. And it's not simple.
Before I got pregnant, I was of the same mind as most pro-choicers who speak in abstracts. As soon as I got pregnant, things got very complex. For example, I finally realized when life begins -- as soon as a woman is conscious that she's pregnant. Even though I knew I was going to have an abortion, I stopped drinking and smoking during the time leading up to it because I didn't want to harm the fetus (isn't that fucked up). I frequently imagined what this life would be like if I didn't abort -- and still remember the due date as a birthday 16 years later. During the procedure, I physically felt the exact moment when that life was no longer a drain on my body. I spent years of emotional turmoil dealing with what I had done, forgiving myself so I could move on with my life, but I was stuck for a really long time.
Through it all, I have never given up my pro-choice position, but that choice is anything but "perfectly simple," PJ Soul. It's that kind of comment that has led me to believe that the only people who really have a right to an opinion about abortion are the women and their partners who have actually had one. Nobody else really knows what they're talking about.

Most of this is an an emotionally based, and is therefore a unique experience to you. If we don't keep the emotional and spiritual feelings of individuals out of the debate abortion will be strictly illegal by like, tomorrow.
My point is that your feelings about when life starts (what about the people who don't know they are pregnant until they give birth?) and the other aspects of abortion are yours alone, and their validity to you is not an endorsement for or against abortion.

How in the hell do you keep emotional feelings out of this? That's just not possible. You don't have the "correct" answer when life starts. What do you mean if you don't keep emotion out of this, abortion will be illegal tomorrow? That we all know it's morally wrong and if we came to our senses, we would all suddenly push to make it illegal?

rgambs

Last-12-Exit said:

show previous quotes

rgambs said:

what dreams said:

PJ_Soul said:

JimmyV said:

I refuse to label myself Pro-choice or Pro-Life. Both are just soundbyte labels that oversimplify a complex issue.

I believe that safe, legal and rare abortion should be available to women who need it. No one should have to cross state lines to get the procedure. No one should have to turn to some black market "doctor" either.

I think we do a disservice to young girls when we push this idea that "it's not a child, it's a choice."

I remember how horrifying it was to dispense the morning after pill when I worked as a pharmacy tech in highly impoverished Holyoke, MA. Not because I have a problem with the pill - I'm glad that a prescription is no longer needed here in Massachusetts. What horrified me was that these young girls, these kids, would come in with a prescription for it...and the doctors would write them with a refill option. No education, just a quick scribble on a paper to keep them out of the doctors' hair next time. Just one more of the many ways the children of that town were underserved.

I don't know if life begins at conception. I can honestly say I don't know when life begins. But I don't believe abortion is murder.

I don't see how "pro-choice" is an over-simplification. It's perfectly simple, not overly. It is actually not a complex issue at all. A woman can choose what she does with her own body and anything that's inside it. That's it. Super simple. Everything else is just noise IMO.

I don't understand why you would have any emotion about giving out the morning after pill, let alone be horrified. When that is used the egg isn't even fertilized. It is not much different that selling a box of condoms.

I'm pro-choice. I've had an abortion. And it's not simple.
Before I got pregnant, I was of the same mind as most pro-choicers who speak in abstracts. As soon as I got pregnant, things got very complex. For example, I finally realized when life begins -- as soon as a woman is conscious that she's pregnant. Even though I knew I was going to have an abortion, I stopped drinking and smoking during the time leading up to it because I didn't want to harm the fetus (isn't that fucked up). I frequently imagined what this life would be like if I didn't abort -- and still remember the due date as a birthday 16 years later. During the procedure, I physically felt the exact moment when that life was no longer a drain on my body. I spent years of emotional turmoil dealing with what I had done, forgiving myself so I could move on with my life, but I was stuck for a really long time.
Through it all, I have never given up my pro-choice position, but that choice is anything but "perfectly simple," PJ Soul. It's that kind of comment that has led me to believe that the only people who really have a right to an opinion about abortion are the women and their partners who have actually had one. Nobody else really knows what they're talking about.

Most of this is an an emotionally based, and is therefore a unique experience to you. If we don't keep the emotional and spiritual feelings of individuals out of the debate abortion will be strictly illegal by like, tomorrow.
My point is that your feelings about when life starts (what about the people who don't know they are pregnant until they give birth?) and the other aspects of abortion are yours alone, and their validity to you is not an endorsement for or against abortion.

How in the hell do you keep emotional feelings out of this? That's just not possible. You don't have the "correct" answer when life starts. What do you mean if you don't keep emotion out of this, abortion will be illegal tomorrow? That we all know it's morally wrong and if we came to our senses, we would all suddenly push to make it illegal?

What I mean is that if we let the strength of the debate rest on emotional assessments, the pro-life crowd will shout the rest of us down.
We have to let emotion be a factor in our reasoning, and not let reason be a factor in our emotions.

what dreams

rgambs said:

show previous quotes

Last-12-Exit said:

rgambs said:

what dreams said:

PJ_Soul said:

JimmyV said:

I refuse to label myself Pro-choice or Pro-Life. Both are just soundbyte labels that oversimplify a complex issue.

I believe that safe, legal and rare abortion should be available to women who need it. No one should have to cross state lines to get the procedure. No one should have to turn to some black market "doctor" either.

I think we do a disservice to young girls when we push this idea that "it's not a child, it's a choice."

I remember how horrifying it was to dispense the morning after pill when I worked as a pharmacy tech in highly impoverished Holyoke, MA. Not because I have a problem with the pill - I'm glad that a prescription is no longer needed here in Massachusetts. What horrified me was that these young girls, these kids, would come in with a prescription for it...and the doctors would write them with a refill option. No education, just a quick scribble on a paper to keep them out of the doctors' hair next time. Just one more of the many ways the children of that town were underserved.

I don't know if life begins at conception. I can honestly say I don't know when life begins. But I don't believe abortion is murder.

I don't see how "pro-choice" is an over-simplification. It's perfectly simple, not overly. It is actually not a complex issue at all. A woman can choose what she does with her own body and anything that's inside it. That's it. Super simple. Everything else is just noise IMO.

I don't understand why you would have any emotion about giving out the morning after pill, let alone be horrified. When that is used the egg isn't even fertilized. It is not much different that selling a box of condoms.

I'm pro-choice. I've had an abortion. And it's not simple.
Before I got pregnant, I was of the same mind as most pro-choicers who speak in abstracts. As soon as I got pregnant, things got very complex. For example, I finally realized when life begins -- as soon as a woman is conscious that she's pregnant. Even though I knew I was going to have an abortion, I stopped drinking and smoking during the time leading up to it because I didn't want to harm the fetus (isn't that fucked up). I frequently imagined what this life would be like if I didn't abort -- and still remember the due date as a birthday 16 years later. During the procedure, I physically felt the exact moment when that life was no longer a drain on my body. I spent years of emotional turmoil dealing with what I had done, forgiving myself so I could move on with my life, but I was stuck for a really long time.
Through it all, I have never given up my pro-choice position, but that choice is anything but "perfectly simple," PJ Soul. It's that kind of comment that has led me to believe that the only people who really have a right to an opinion about abortion are the women and their partners who have actually had one. Nobody else really knows what they're talking about.

Most of this is an an emotionally based, and is therefore a unique experience to you. If we don't keep the emotional and spiritual feelings of individuals out of the debate abortion will be strictly illegal by like, tomorrow.
My point is that your feelings about when life starts (what about the people who don't know they are pregnant until they give birth?) and the other aspects of abortion are yours alone, and their validity to you is not an endorsement for or against abortion.

How in the hell do you keep emotional feelings out of this? That's just not possible. You don't have the "correct" answer when life starts. What do you mean if you don't keep emotion out of this, abortion will be illegal tomorrow? That we all know it's morally wrong and if we came to our senses, we would all suddenly push to make it illegal?

What I mean is that if we let the strength of the debate rest on emotional assessments, the pro-life crowd will shout the rest of us down.
We have to let emotion be a factor in our reasoning, and not let reason be a factor in our emotions.

Rgambs, this response is exactly why so many women who have had abortions suffer in silence. Do you know how many women don't talk about their abortions because of this kind of reprimand from "rational" people like you? MOST OF THEM! No woman should be shamed into silence because some man thinks it's politically expedient for her to shut up about it.

Furthermore, you are dead wrong on the point. I think -- no, I know -- that if more women like me would come out of the closet to share their experience, it would help to normalize abortion. It would show the world that women from all walks of life have made the horrific, COMPLEX choice to terminate a pregnancy, they survived it, and they contribute successfully to society at all levels. Most of them eventually choose to become excellent mothers when they are ready and capable. That is exactly what people need to see. Right now, we know that millions of women have had abortions, but most of us don't know they are our sisters, friends, colleagues, and neighbors because we don't talk. We don't talk because we don't want one group calling us a murderer, and we don't want the other group telling us that our abortion was no big deal, just another day at the doctor's, like a wart removal. Having experienced it, I don't know which side is worse.

If women shouldn't share their experiences, as you suggest to keep abortion legal, well fuck, you might as well just send them back into the alleys where nobody can see them having the abortion. Because from the sounds of your statement, that is exactly what you would prefer, as Last Exit said. Keep it hidden and keep it quiet, so people won't know how awful it really is. Unfortunately people are smarter than that. The general public knows it's horrible. When you pretend it's not, you are the one who undermines the credibility of pro-choice activism.

brianlux

Whoa! What am I missing here? What Dreams, my impression of what rgambs is saying is that basing an argument primarily on emotion is going to do more harm to the pro-choice side of the issue and I doubt that is what you want. I don't mean to speak for Gambs, but I do not believe he intends for women to keep quiet about their experiences or that they should not share them. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think you and he are on the same side on this issue.

My own feeling is that women definitely should share their stories and men and women should listen. That's not the same as settling an issue based on feelings because, in the case of abortion, the emotional feeling of pro-lifers is loud and strong. Did you read my story above about the woman who gave $100 to the Planned Parenthood office every time she passed it and saw that the employees there were being harassed by pro-lifers? They were the ones using emotion to try to force their point. The women who kept giving the money was firm in here response, but kept her cool and used action to get her point across and she eventually wore them down and made big gains for pro-choice. And I guarantee this same woman would not support the notion of women keeping their stories in the closet. No, not at all.

Last-12-Exit

Should the parents of the children killed at Sandy hook keep emotion out of the debate when trying to get congress to act for stricter gun laws?

rgambs

what dreams said:

show previous quotes

rgambs said:

Last-12-Exit said:

rgambs said:

what dreams said:

PJ_Soul said:

JimmyV said:

I refuse to label myself Pro-choice or Pro-Life. Both are just soundbyte labels that oversimplify a complex issue.

I believe that safe, legal and rare abortion should be available to women who need it. No one should have to cross state lines to get the procedure. No one should have to turn to some black market "doctor" either.

I think we do a disservice to young girls when we push this idea that "it's not a child, it's a choice."

I remember how horrifying it was to dispense the morning after pill when I worked as a pharmacy tech in highly impoverished Holyoke, MA. Not because I have a problem with the pill - I'm glad that a prescription is no longer needed here in Massachusetts. What horrified me was that these young girls, these kids, would come in with a prescription for it...and the doctors would write them with a refill option. No education, just a quick scribble on a paper to keep them out of the doctors' hair next time. Just one more of the many ways the children of that town were underserved.

I don't know if life begins at conception. I can honestly say I don't know when life begins. But I don't believe abortion is murder.

I don't see how "pro-choice" is an over-simplification. It's perfectly simple, not overly. It is actually not a complex issue at all. A woman can choose what she does with her own body and anything that's inside it. That's it. Super simple. Everything else is just noise IMO.

I don't understand why you would have any emotion about giving out the morning after pill, let alone be horrified. When that is used the egg isn't even fertilized. It is not much different that selling a box of condoms.

I'm pro-choice. I've had an abortion. And it's not simple.
Before I got pregnant, I was of the same mind as most pro-choicers who speak in abstracts. As soon as I got pregnant, things got very complex. For example, I finally realized when life begins -- as soon as a woman is conscious that she's pregnant. Even though I knew I was going to have an abortion, I stopped drinking and smoking during the time leading up to it because I didn't want to harm the fetus (isn't that fucked up). I frequently imagined what this life would be like if I didn't abort -- and still remember the due date as a birthday 16 years later. During the procedure, I physically felt the exact moment when that life was no longer a drain on my body. I spent years of emotional turmoil dealing with what I had done, forgiving myself so I could move on with my life, but I was stuck for a really long time.
Through it all, I have never given up my pro-choice position, but that choice is anything but "perfectly simple," PJ Soul. It's that kind of comment that has led me to believe that the only people who really have a right to an opinion about abortion are the women and their partners who have actually had one. Nobody else really knows what they're talking about.

Most of this is an an emotionally based, and is therefore a unique experience to you. If we don't keep the emotional and spiritual feelings of individuals out of the debate abortion will be strictly illegal by like, tomorrow.
My point is that your feelings about when life starts (what about the people who don't know they are pregnant until they give birth?) and the other aspects of abortion are yours alone, and their validity to you is not an endorsement for or against abortion.

How in the hell do you keep emotional feelings out of this? That's just not possible. You don't have the "correct" answer when life starts. What do you mean if you don't keep emotion out of this, abortion will be illegal tomorrow? That we all know it's morally wrong and if we came to our senses, we would all suddenly push to make it illegal?

What I mean is that if we let the strength of the debate rest on emotional assessments, the pro-life crowd will shout the rest of us down.
We have to let emotion be a factor in our reasoning, and not let reason be a factor in our emotions.

Rgambs, this response is exactly why so many women who have had abortions suffer in silence. Do you know how many women don't talk about their abortions because of this kind of reprimand from "rational" people like you? MOST OF THEM! No woman should be shamed into silence because some man thinks it's politically expedient for her to shut up about it.

Furthermore, you are dead wrong on the point. I think -- no, I know -- that if more women like me would come out of the closet to share their experience, it would help to normalize abortion. It would show the world that women from all walks of life have made the horrific, COMPLEX choice to terminate a pregnancy, they survived it, and they contribute successfully to society at all levels. Most of them eventually choose to become excellent mothers when they are ready and capable. That is exactly what people need to see. Right now, we know that millions of women have had abortions, but most of us don't know they are our sisters, friends, colleagues, and neighbors because we don't talk. We don't talk because we don't want one group calling us a murderer, and we don't want the other group telling us that our abortion was no big deal, just another day at the doctor's, like a wart removal. Having experienced it, I don't know which side is worse.

If women shouldn't share their experiences, as you suggest to keep abortion legal, well fuck, you might as well just send them back into the alleys where nobody can see them having the abortion. Because from the sounds of your statement, that is exactly what you would prefer, as Last Exit said. Keep it hidden and keep it quiet, so people won't know how awful it really is. Unfortunately people are smarter than that. The general public knows it's horrible. When you pretend it's not, you are the one who undermines the credibility of pro-choice activism.

I don't think women should withhold their stories at all! I just don't think those stories should bear too heavily on the debate.
Same goes for Sandy Hook.
I don't believe in legislating morality.

Gern Blansten

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFVTc4aghos

This is a really good documentary if you haven't seen it.

You would really expect the anti-gov't/small gov't crowd (GOP) to be pro-choice since that involves less government intrusion. The gov't having that amount of control over a woman's body (especially in the case of rape....I cannot believe that in 2015 we still have right wing nutjobs that believe that abortion should be prevented in the case of rape) should be opposed by a party that preaches as little gov't regulation as possible.

The pro-choice crowd is anti-abortion. No one WANTS abortions to occur but it is naive to think that they won't or that a woman should not have the freedom to make that choice.

It's laughable to me to see GOP presidential candidates yammering about being pro-life yet taking stances to cut welfare benefits and unemployment benefits. If you want more babies born than you better put the money up to support them.

JimmyV

In any reasoned debate, those with firsthand experiences should be sought out for their experiences. They can bring to the discussion something others cannot. We shouldn't be trying to minimize those experiences because they are emotional.

This is an emotional issue. We try to strip the emotion out of it by making it about "choice". Choices are great! Who wouldn't be in favor of choice? But as what dreams very eloquent and brave posts have shown, there is much more to the issue than just the choice.

what dreams

The choice is to terminate a life. Any scientist worth a damn will tell you that life begins at conception when cells begin to divide. Isn't that what we all fucking learned in 7th grade biology? Any mother will tell you that her life changed the moment she found out she was pregnant. Rgambs himself said his life changed as soon as he found out they were pregnant. THAT is how we know the fetus is a life.

Rgambs went on to say that he and his wife ultimately could not have an abortion because it was way too selfish . . . oh no, don't say that feeling out loud, rgambs, because the pro-lifers will shout you down. Right? Isn't that what you said? That you decided *not* to abort because of your emotions? So how dare you tell me what arguments I can or cannot use while I am discussing my pro-choice position?

The debate is NOT "Is it life?" Of course it is. The debate is about the quality of the life -- and the role of the mother's own blood, oxygen, and other nutrients in sustaining it. A woman ought to be able to decide what she wants to do with her own body. THAT is the debate, and of course, the basis of my pro-choice position. If I choose to do something that at some level IS morally reprehensible, then I guess I just happen to join the filth pot of humanity in doing so. (My discussion with my priest was the most enlightening of all, and in ways none of you would expect). . . . But I'm not going to pretend it was a rational, clinical decision just to satisfy someone's perceived need to counter-argue the right-wing with an opposing style of argument.

brianlux

Well, I will say this- I would not make a great politician because I would show too much emotion. Good leaders keep their emotions in check better.

For example, this little article enticed some choice expletives from me:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-planned-parenthood-shutdown_55c0ad82e4b06363d5a35308

"Real estate mogul Donald Trump supports shutting down the government as a way to defund Planned Parenthood..."


REALLY?

Gern Blansten

what dreams said:

The choice is to terminate a life. Any scientist worth a damn will tell you that life begins at conception when cells begin to divide. Isn't that what we all fucking learned in 7th grade biology? Any mother will tell you that her life changed the moment she found out she was pregnant. Rgambs himself said his life changed as soon as he found out they were pregnant. THAT is how we know the fetus is a life.

Rgambs went on to say that he and his wife ultimately could not have an abortion because it was way too selfish . . . oh no, don't say that feeling out loud, rgambs, because the pro-lifers will shout you down. Right? Isn't that would you said? That you decided *not* to abort because of your emotions? So how dare you tell me what arguments I can or cannot use while I am discussing my pro-choice position.

So do you support the position that abortion should be illegal for a rape victim?

jeffbr

Gern Blansten said:

show previous quotes

what dreams said:

The choice is to terminate a life. Any scientist worth a damn will tell you that life begins at conception when cells begin to divide. Isn't that what we all fucking learned in 7th grade biology? Any mother will tell you that her life changed the moment she found out she was pregnant. Rgambs himself said his life changed as soon as he found out they were pregnant. THAT is how we know the fetus is a life.

Rgambs went on to say that he and his wife ultimately could not have an abortion because it was way too selfish . . . oh no, don't say that feeling out loud, rgambs, because the pro-lifers will shout you down. Right? Isn't that would you said? That you decided *not* to abort because of your emotions? So how dare you tell me what arguments I can or cannot use while I am discussing my pro-choice position.

So do you support the position that abortion should be illegal for a rape victim?

Jesus Christ. Why are you guys giving what dreams any kind of grief? She came here and shared a very powerful (and emotional) experience to help illustrate her position on the issue. After all of that she said "Through it all, I have never given up my pro-choice position, but that choice is anything but "perfectly simple,""

what dreams

jeffbr said:

show previous quotes

Gern Blansten said:

what dreams said:

The choice is to terminate a life. Any scientist worth a damn will tell you that life begins at conception when cells begin to divide. Isn't that what we all fucking learned in 7th grade biology? Any mother will tell you that her life changed the moment she found out she was pregnant. Rgambs himself said his life changed as soon as he found out they were pregnant. THAT is how we know the fetus is a life.

Rgambs went on to say that he and his wife ultimately could not have an abortion because it was way too selfish . . . oh no, don't say that feeling out loud, rgambs, because the pro-lifers will shout you down. Right? Isn't that would you said? That you decided *not* to abort because of your emotions? So how dare you tell me what arguments I can or cannot use while I am discussing my pro-choice position.

So do you support the position that abortion should be illegal for a rape victim?

Jesus Christ. Why are you guys giving what dreams any kind of grief? She came here and shared a very powerful (and emotional) experience to help illustrate her position on the issue. After all of that she said "Through it all, I have never given up my pro-choice position, but that choice is anything but "perfectly simple,""

Thank you, jeffbr . . . Not only did I end my original post with that, but I STARTED my original post by stating that. And I've said in every subsequent post that I am staunchly pro-choice -- just disgusted with the way most people talk about abortion in this country.

brianlux

Here's a solution that might work. I came across this while reading Henry Rollins excellent book, Before the Chop II:

"I am in the 'if you are against abortion then don't have one' camp because it allows everyone to to get what they want and need. Neither side will come over to the other's nor do I think they have to, especially since both can have it their way."

Simple, easy, neat. Thank you, Henry.

jeffbr

brianlux said:

Here's a solution that might work. I came across this while reading Henry Rollins excellent book, Before the Chop II:

"I am in the 'if you are against abortion then don't have one' camp because it allows everyone to to get what they want and need. Neither side will come over to the other's nor do I think they have to, especially since both can have it their way."

Simple, easy, neat. Thank you, Henry.

It really should be that simple! Henry is a wise man.

PJ_Soul

what dreams said:

show previous quotes

PJ_Soul said:

JimmyV said:

I refuse to label myself Pro-choice or Pro-Life. Both are just soundbyte labels that oversimplify a complex issue.

I believe that safe, legal and rare abortion should be available to women who need it. No one should have to cross state lines to get the procedure. No one should have to turn to some black market "doctor" either.

I think we do a disservice to young girls when we push this idea that "it's not a child, it's a choice."

I remember how horrifying it was to dispense the morning after pill when I worked as a pharmacy tech in highly impoverished Holyoke, MA. Not because I have a problem with the pill - I'm glad that a prescription is no longer needed here in Massachusetts. What horrified me was that these young girls, these kids, would come in with a prescription for it...and the doctors would write them with a refill option. No education, just a quick scribble on a paper to keep them out of the doctors' hair next time. Just one more of the many ways the children of that town were underserved.

I don't know if life begins at conception. I can honestly say I don't know when life begins. But I don't believe abortion is murder.

I don't see how "pro-choice" is an over-simplification. It's perfectly simple, not overly. It is actually not a complex issue at all. A woman can choose what she does with her own body and anything that's inside it. That's it. Super simple. Everything else is just noise IMO.

I don't understand why you would have any emotion about giving out the morning after pill, let alone be horrified. When that is used the egg isn't even fertilized. It is not much different that selling a box of condoms.

I'm pro-choice. I've had an abortion. And it's not simple.
Before I got pregnant, I was of the same mind as most pro-choicers who speak in abstracts. As soon as I got pregnant, things got very complex. For example, I finally realized when life begins -- as soon as a woman is conscious that she's pregnant. Even though I knew I was going to have an abortion, I stopped drinking and smoking during the time leading up to it because I didn't want to harm the fetus (isn't that fucked up). I frequently imagined what this life would be like if I didn't abort -- and still remember the due date as a birthday 16 years later. During the procedure, I physically felt the exact moment when that life was no longer a drain on my body. I spent years of emotional turmoil dealing with what I had done, forgiving myself so I could move on with my life, but I was stuck for a really long time.
Through it all, I have never given up my pro-choice position, but that choice is anything but "perfectly simple," PJ Soul. It's that kind of comment that has led me to believe that the only people who really have a right to an opinion about abortion are the women and their partners who have actually had one. Nobody else really knows what they're talking about.

Actually, I have also had an abortion, so I absolutely know exactly what it's all about (not sure why you assumed I must be someone who has not gone through it, but I suggest you don't make that assumption about anyone anymore. TBH, that kind of pissed me off). But I still think that the idea of "pro-choice" is very simple. That doesn't mean I think getting an abortion is simple. I'm talking about what pro-choice is. That is a very simple concept.

Gern Blansten

what dreams said:

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jeffbr said:

Gern Blansten said:

what dreams said:

The choice is to terminate a life. Any scientist worth a damn will tell you that life begins at conception when cells begin to divide. Isn't that what we all fucking learned in 7th grade biology? Any mother will tell you that her life changed the moment she found out she was pregnant. Rgambs himself said his life changed as soon as he found out they were pregnant. THAT is how we know the fetus is a life.

Rgambs went on to say that he and his wife ultimately could not have an abortion because it was way too selfish . . . oh no, don't say that feeling out loud, rgambs, because the pro-lifers will shout you down. Right? Isn't that would you said? That you decided *not* to abort because of your emotions? So how dare you tell me what arguments I can or cannot use while I am discussing my pro-choice position.

So do you support the position that abortion should be illegal for a rape victim?

Jesus Christ. Why are you guys giving what dreams any kind of grief? She came here and shared a very powerful (and emotional) experience to help illustrate her position on the issue. After all of that she said "Through it all, I have never given up my pro-choice position, but that choice is anything but "perfectly simple,""

Thank you, jeffbr . . . Not only did I end my original post with that, but I STARTED my original post by stating that. And I've said in every subsequent post that I am staunchly pro-choice -- just disgusted with the way most people talk about abortion in this country.

sorry....I apparently misinterpreted.

No need to soil yourself jeffbr