One thing I've not understood is that it seems as if most assume that if you're against abortion, it must be for religious reasons. That makes absolutely no sense to me.
I would still be anti-abortion (in basically ALL circumstances, BTW) if I weren't religious. I'm not sure I've heard an anti-abortion sermon ever while attending church.
It also makes no sense to me that some people here won't acknowledge that it's possible to be spiritual (believe in God) and also be pro-choice. A poster above completely ignored the fact that I am pro-choice but felt it totally necessary to take a dig at me for thanking God (a common expression used by many to express gratitude). And for what it's worth, I have heard many anti-abortion homilies in my Catholic Church. Finally, one day, I walked out -- nearly knocking over the altar boy carrying the gifts down the aisle -- and I never went back. I was told over and over that I couldn't be both Catholic and pro-choice, so that day I decided to no longer be Catholic. But I haven't given up on faith. And I am pro-choice.
Another thing that makes no sense to me is that by some reports, a full 80% of the American public supports abortion as a choice, yet when it comes to the conservative/liberal voting divide, we are spilt about 50/50. So many people who are pro-choice do, in fact, vote for Republicans anyway because abortion is not their voting issue. It's more important to them to keep their taxes low or protect the second amendment or be strong on defense or whatever (I don't believe anyone has to defend their vote, though). I once dated a guy who identifies with the Tea Party (I cannot defend that either -- hahahaha) and is super-active in local political campaigns. He declared to me that even though he is completely pro-choice, he can't bring it up publicly at party meetings because he would be tossed out. My guess is that many more Republican than we realize are pro-choice but are willing to sacrifice women's reproductive freedom for whatever other cause they hold dear.
On the other hand, I have voted a straight Democratic ticket my entire life, and being pro-choice is pretty much my only reason for doing so. There are so many issues where I feel like the Democratic Party has it wrong, but I cannot bring myself to turn over the next Supreme Court nominee to the Republicans. We're already losing the pro-choice battle at the state level, but when we lose the Supreme Court, the nation as a whole can kiss choice good-bye.
The end-all issue for one isn't the same for another; such is life, and part of the beauty of this smorgasbord of picks and chooses. And you're right, no one needs to justify to anyone where and how they opt to weigh their vote and/or action.
I really don't see Roe v Wade being overturned.
For the record, I'm agnostic - I suppose spiritual - pro-choice, and an Independent who has both conservative and liberal leanings.
Also, this strikes me as unfair, but do get it's your entitled opinion - My guess is that many more Republican than we realize are pro-choice but are willing to sacrifice women's reproductive freedom for whatever other cause they hold dear.
Sacrifice?
If you're willing to overlook all other issues because of this one, who are you (anyone) to say others shouldn't do the same for their own reasons?
(hope this came off as intended! - lots to digest and address)
The end-all issue for one isn't the same for another; such is life, and part of the beauty of this smorgasbord of picks and chooses. And you're right, no one needs to justify to anyone where and how they opt to weigh their vote and/or action.
I really don't see Roe v Wade being overturned.
For the record, I'm agnostic - I suppose spiritual - pro-choice, and an Independent who has both conservative and liberal leanings.
Also, this strikes me as unfair, but do get it's your entitled opinion - My guess is that many more Republican than we realize are pro-choice but are willing to sacrifice women's reproductive freedom for whatever other cause they hold dear.
Sacrifice?
If you're willing to overlook all other issues because of this one, who are you (anyone) to say others shouldn't do the same for their own reasons?
(hope this came off as intended! - lots to digest and address)
I DIDN'T say others shouldn't do the same. Don't put words in my mouth. I know that people weigh the issues that are important to them. I don't hold it against them at all. In my previous paragraph I even said nobody has to defend their vote, which you acknowledged. It's not a contradiction. But it is a sacrifice when any of us undermine one value in favor of another when we are forced to vote for candidates who bring with them a smorgasboard of issues we don't agree with. Everybody does it and everybody is entitled to do it. I'm not sure why you interpreted the word "sacrifice" in such a derogatory way.
I also respectfully ask you to not be so casual in your assumption that Roe v. Wade will never be overturned. I believe that is a naïve position. In fact, if you look at the state by state map that NARAL publishes, you will see that it is next to impossible to have an abortion in most states. If we turn the Supreme Court over to a majority of ultra conservative judges (and yes, that is the pro-lifers' ultimate national campaign goal), it's done. It has been the pro-life strategy for years -- chip away, chip away and force it back into the courtroom. In almost all cases, the circuit courts have upheld restrictive measures at the state level, and as we saw in the Hobby Lobby case on birth control -- they won at the Supreme Court level, too. Roe v. Wade is on the brink of being overturned -- one judge away -- and people need to be very alarmed about that. Pro-choice may seem reasonable to you and me, it seems like it's something we can take for granted when we surround ourselves with people who think like us. But the pro-choice lobby has not, in my view, played a very smart strategy and we are losing.
On the other hand, I have voted a straight Democratic ticket my entire life, and being pro-choice is pretty much my only reason for doing so. There are so many issues where I feel like the Democratic Party has it wrong, but I cannot bring myself to turn over the next Supreme Court nominee to the Republicans. We're already losing the pro-choice battle at the state level, but when we lose the Supreme Court, the nation as a whole can kiss choice good-bye.
So, for you the biggest issue for the country is whether abortion is legal?
I find that I can't vote for either side in good conscience for many reasons including abortion. And even though I personally think it should be banned and I consider it very wrong, I also do not think it is the biggest issue facing our country.
(Sadly, I think the biggest issue is overhauling our government. The system is horribly broken in my opinion.)
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
The end-all issue for one isn't the same for another; such is life, and part of the beauty of this smorgasbord of picks and chooses. And you're right, no one needs to justify to anyone where and how they opt to weigh their vote and/or action.
I really don't see Roe v Wade being overturned.
For the record, I'm agnostic - I suppose spiritual - pro-choice, and an Independent who has both conservative and liberal leanings.
Also, this strikes me as unfair, but do get it's your entitled opinion - My guess is that many more Republican than we realize are pro-choice but are willing to sacrifice women's reproductive freedom for whatever other cause they hold dear.
Sacrifice?
If you're willing to overlook all other issues because of this one, who are you (anyone) to say others shouldn't do the same for their own reasons?
(hope this came off as intended! - lots to digest and address)
I DIDN'T say others shouldn't do the same. Don't put words in my mouth. I know that people weigh the issues that are important to them. I don't hold it against them at all. In my previous paragraph I even said nobody has to defend their vote, which you acknowledged. It's not a contradiction. But it is a sacrifice when any of us undermine one value in favor of another when we are forced to vote for candidates who bring with them a smorgasboard of issues we don't agree with. Everybody does it and everybody is entitled to do it. I'm not sure why you interpreted the word "sacrifice" in such a derogatory way.
I also respectfully ask you to not be so casual in your assumption that Roe v. Wade will never be overturned. I believe that is a naïve position. In fact, if you look at the state by state map that NARAL publishes, you will see that it is next to impossible to have an abortion in most states. If we turn the Supreme Court over to a majority of ultra conservative judges (and yes, that is the pro-lifers' ultimate national campaign goal), it's done. It has been the pro-life strategy for years -- chip away, chip away and force it back into the courtroom. In almost all cases, the circuit courts have upheld restrictive measures at the state level, and as we saw in the Hobby Lobby case on birth control -- they won at the Supreme Court level, too. Roe v. Wade is on the brink of being overturned -- one judge away -- and people need to be very alarmed about that. Pro-choice may seem reasonable to you and me, it seems like it's something we can take for granted when we surround ourselves with people who think like us. But the pro-choice lobby has not, in my view, played a very smart strategy and we are losing.
The word sacrifice and how it was used in that context struck me as somewhat judgmental and negative. Thanks for clarifying.
Also, I'm not one to put words in anyone's mouth - hence the last sentence of my post.
On the other hand, I have voted a straight Democratic ticket my entire life, and being pro-choice is pretty much my only reason for doing so. There are so many issues where I feel like the Democratic Party has it wrong, but I cannot bring myself to turn over the next Supreme Court nominee to the Republicans. We're already losing the pro-choice battle at the state level, but when we lose the Supreme Court, the nation as a whole can kiss choice good-bye.
So, for you the biggest issue for the country is whether abortion is legal?
I find that I can't vote for either side in good conscience for many reasons including abortion. And even though I personally think it should be banned and I consider it very wrong, I also do not think it is the biggest issue facing our country.
(Sadly, I think the biggest issue is overhauling our government. The system is horribly broken in my opinion.)
No, I don't think the biggest issue for the country is legal abortion. I think the biggest issue for ME is reproductive freedom. Once the government starts controlling women's bodies and their right to self-determination, they don't really have anything else left. That's the government controlling 50% of the country's population.
When I had my abortion, a very close, older friend who lived through the Roe v. Wade days said to me, "Lots of people fought hard for your right to control your own body. Don't ever take that for granted." I have spent my voting life not taking that for granted. I feel like I owe it to the people who made it possible for me to choose the life I've lived. And I've also chosen to spend the subsequent fifteen years since my abortion doing A LOT of good things for other living, breathing people.
You're right, though. The government is broken. Believing it's ever going to be fixed by any candidate is also a naïve position.
One thing I've not understood is that it seems as if most assume that if you're against abortion, it must be for religious reasons. That makes absolutely no sense to me.
I would still be anti-abortion (in basically ALL circumstances, BTW) if I weren't religious. I'm not sure I've heard an anti-abortion sermon ever while attending church.
It also makes no sense to me that some people here won't acknowledge that it's possible to be spiritual (believe in God) and also be pro-choice. A poster above completely ignored the fact that I am pro-choice .
Reread response wasn't referring to your abortion stance just thought it funny you thanked god for not needing to understand everything. Sorry but for us non believers that's funny.
One thing I've not understood is that it seems as if most assume that if you're against abortion, it must be for religious reasons. That makes absolutely no sense to me.
I would still be anti-abortion (in basically ALL circumstances, BTW) if I weren't religious. I'm not sure I've heard an anti-abortion sermon ever while attending church.
It also makes no sense to me that some people here won't acknowledge that it's possible to be spiritual (believe in God) and also be pro-choice. A poster above completely ignored the fact that I am pro-choice .
Reread response wasn't referring to your abortion stance just thought it funny you thanked god for not needing to understand everything. Sorry but for us non believers that's funny.
And that's perfectly fine with me for you to be a non-believer. It actually makes perfect sense to me why some people find faith difficult, but I don't feel the need to denigrate non-believers. I also don't think it's productive for you to do it either. Especially when you choose to laugh at someone who shares the political position in question. What benefit is there in alienating someone who is on your side? None.
It seems to me that if people spent more time focusing on what they have in common rather than their differences, we would be in a vastly different place as a nation.
One thing I've not understood is that it seems as if most assume that if you're against abortion, it must be for religious reasons. That makes absolutely no sense to me.
I would still be anti-abortion (in basically ALL circumstances, BTW) if I weren't religious. I'm not sure I've heard an anti-abortion sermon ever while attending church.
It also makes no sense to me that some people here won't acknowledge that it's possible to be spiritual (believe in God) and also be pro-choice. A poster above completely ignored the fact that I am pro-choice .
Reread response wasn't referring to your abortion stance just thought it funny you thanked god for not needing to understand everything. Sorry but for us non believers that's funny.
And that's perfectly fine with me for you to be a non-believer. It actually makes perfect sense to me why some people find faith difficult, but I don't feel the need to denigrate non-believers. I also don't think it's productive for you to do it either. Especially when you choose to laugh at someone who shares the political position in question. What benefit is there in alienating someone who is on your side? None.
It seems to me that if people spent more time focusing on what they have in common rather than their differences, we would be in a vastly different place as a nation.
Yes was a crass statement and shouldn't of made it. Doesn't further the conversation.
Sorry, but this is ridiculous. In no way is a bowl of batter a cake. If you ordered a cake and received a bowl of batter you would want your money back. A bowl of batter is cake batter, suggesting that the two are the same thing is even more ridiculous than saying a fetus and a baby are the same thing.
The funny thing is if it were the Right making a comparison between a person and a cake, the left would be all up-in-arms about how it was insulting to do so.
It's a fucking metaphor dude.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I think at some point, PJ Soul asked Just a Girl for some research to back up a statistic, and it made me wonder exactly what the numbers are. It's hard to find unbiased resources on this topic, but I did come across this website that does seem concerned with reporting the facts in the sole interest of promoting women's health.
This link in particular focuses on the issue of unintended pregnancy, which seems to be the crux of everyone's argument with Just a Girl.
A full 51% of pregnancies in the United States are unintended or mistimed. As if that is not startling enough, there is an undeniable correlation between unintended pregnancy and women already living in poverty. If you're poor, you are more likely to experience an unintended pregnancy -- AND if you are poor, you are more likely to give birth to the unintended child. Basically, reading this web page further validated everything we should all know. If we want to solve the world's problems, we need to eliminate poverty. Everything that sucks in the world somehow goes back to it.
Finally, according to this site, one in three women will have had an abortion at some point during her reproductive years. So the next time any of us are out with a crowd of women we know, like at a family reunion, we need to look around and start counting the murderers at our table (sarcasm).
To be a Global Citizen what view would you tend to be? Pro Life or Pro Choice? Curious the crowd reaction if Pearl Jam performed Porch at the GCF and scribes pro choice on his arm.
Has anyone brought up the positive correlation between abortion and its effect on future crime rates?
1. Statistics show a dramatic drop in national crime rates in the subsequent eras where those unwanted children would have matured into 18-25 year olds (the prime crime committing ages). 2. States which accepted abortion as a practice earlier than other states realized a dramatic reduction in crime before other states that resisted the practice. 3. States with the highest abortion rates in the 70s experienced the greatest reduction of crime in the 90s.
Has anyone brought up the positive correlation between abortion and its effect on future crime rates?
1. Statistics show a dramatic drop in national crime rates in the subsequent eras where those unwanted children would have matured into 18-25 year olds (the prime crime committing ages). 2. States which accepted abortion as a practice earlier than other states realized a dramatic reduction in crime before other states that resisted the practice. 3. States with the highest abortion rates in the 70s experienced the greatest reduction of crime in the 90s.
I believe this was discussed in the book "Freakonomics"
It is a reasonable theory with lots of hard facts behind it
Has anyone brought up the positive correlation between abortion and its effect on future crime rates?
1. Statistics show a dramatic drop in national crime rates in the subsequent eras where those unwanted children would have matured into 18-25 year olds (the prime crime committing ages). 2. States which accepted abortion as a practice earlier than other states realized a dramatic reduction in crime before other states that resisted the practice. 3. States with the highest abortion rates in the 70s experienced the greatest reduction of crime in the 90s.
Makes sense. Also add free easily accessed woman's healthcare and education.
Comments
Another thing that makes no sense to me is that by some reports, a full 80% of the American public supports abortion as a choice, yet when it comes to the conservative/liberal voting divide, we are spilt about 50/50. So many people who are pro-choice do, in fact, vote for Republicans anyway because abortion is not their voting issue. It's more important to them to keep their taxes low or protect the second amendment or be strong on defense or whatever (I don't believe anyone has to defend their vote, though). I once dated a guy who identifies with the Tea Party (I cannot defend that either -- hahahaha) and is super-active in local political campaigns. He declared to me that even though he is completely pro-choice, he can't bring it up publicly at party meetings because he would be tossed out. My guess is that many more Republican than we realize are pro-choice but are willing to sacrifice women's reproductive freedom for whatever other cause they hold dear.
On the other hand, I have voted a straight Democratic ticket my entire life, and being pro-choice is pretty much my only reason for doing so. There are so many issues where I feel like the Democratic Party has it wrong, but I cannot bring myself to turn over the next Supreme Court nominee to the Republicans. We're already losing the pro-choice battle at the state level, but when we lose the Supreme Court, the nation as a whole can kiss choice good-bye.
I really don't see Roe v Wade being overturned.
For the record, I'm agnostic - I suppose spiritual - pro-choice, and an Independent who has both conservative and liberal leanings.
Also, this strikes me as unfair, but do get it's your entitled opinion - My guess is that many more Republican than we realize are pro-choice but are willing to sacrifice women's reproductive freedom for whatever other cause they hold dear.
Sacrifice?
If you're willing to overlook all other issues because of this one, who are you (anyone) to say others shouldn't do the same for their own reasons?
(hope this came off as intended! - lots to digest and address)
I also respectfully ask you to not be so casual in your assumption that Roe v. Wade will never be overturned. I believe that is a naïve position. In fact, if you look at the state by state map that NARAL publishes, you will see that it is next to impossible to have an abortion in most states. If we turn the Supreme Court over to a majority of ultra conservative judges (and yes, that is the pro-lifers' ultimate national campaign goal), it's done. It has been the pro-life strategy for years -- chip away, chip away and force it back into the courtroom. In almost all cases, the circuit courts have upheld restrictive measures at the state level, and as we saw in the Hobby Lobby case on birth control -- they won at the Supreme Court level, too. Roe v. Wade is on the brink of being overturned -- one judge away -- and people need to be very alarmed about that. Pro-choice may seem reasonable to you and me, it seems like it's something we can take for granted when we surround ourselves with people who think like us. But the pro-choice lobby has not, in my view, played a very smart strategy and we are losing.
I find that I can't vote for either side in good conscience for many reasons including abortion. And even though I personally think it should be banned and I consider it very wrong, I also do not think it is the biggest issue facing our country.
(Sadly, I think the biggest issue is overhauling our government. The system is horribly broken in my opinion.)
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Also, I'm not one to put words in anyone's mouth - hence the last sentence of my post.
When I had my abortion, a very close, older friend who lived through the Roe v. Wade days said to me, "Lots of people fought hard for your right to control your own body. Don't ever take that for granted." I have spent my voting life not taking that for granted. I feel like I owe it to the people who made it possible for me to choose the life I've lived. And I've also chosen to spend the subsequent fifteen years since my abortion doing A LOT of good things for other living, breathing people.
You're right, though. The government is broken. Believing it's ever going to be fixed by any candidate is also a naïve position.
It seems to me that if people spent more time focusing on what they have in common rather than their differences, we would be in a vastly different place as a nation.
This link in particular focuses on the issue of unintended pregnancy, which seems to be the crux of everyone's argument with Just a Girl.
https://guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-Unintended-Pregnancy-US.html
A full 51% of pregnancies in the United States are unintended or mistimed. As if that is not startling enough, there is an undeniable correlation between unintended pregnancy and women already living in poverty. If you're poor, you are more likely to experience an unintended pregnancy -- AND if you are poor, you are more likely to give birth to the unintended child. Basically, reading this web page further validated everything we should all know. If we want to solve the world's problems, we need to eliminate poverty. Everything that sucks in the world somehow goes back to it.
Finally, according to this site, one in three women will have had an abortion at some point during her reproductive years. So the next time any of us are out with a crowd of women we know, like at a family reunion, we need to look around and start counting the murderers at our table (sarcasm).
Pro Life or Pro Choice?
Curious the crowd reaction if Pearl Jam performed Porch at the GCF and scribes pro choice on his arm.
1. Statistics show a dramatic drop in national crime rates in the subsequent eras where those unwanted children would have matured into 18-25 year olds (the prime crime committing ages).
2. States which accepted abortion as a practice earlier than other states realized a dramatic reduction in crime before other states that resisted the practice.
3. States with the highest abortion rates in the 70s experienced the greatest reduction of crime in the 90s.
It is a reasonable theory with lots of hard facts behind it