Knowing what you know now would you still support the withdrawal of troops from Iraq

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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,126
    Iran far more belligerent? Giving up their nuclear program? How many troops to conquer and control Iraq, Syria and Libya? You're out of your mind if you think occupying Iraq with 170,000 infidels would have resulted in a peaceful, democratic Iraq. While true that most Sunnis and Shias want to live in peace, neither would do it under occupation. Your western arrogance is outrageous but not surprising being the neocon that you are.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,126
    And Iraq is a billion times worse since 2003.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    Halifax2TheMax said:

    Iran far more belligerent? Giving up their nuclear program? How many troops to conquer and control Iraq, Syria and Libya? You're out of your mind if you think occupying Iraq with 170,000 infidels would have resulted in a peaceful, democratic Iraq. While true that most Sunnis and Shias want to live in peace, neither would do it under occupation. Your western arrogance is outrageous but not surprising being the neocon that you are.

    You like to move goal posts don't you? Who was asking for troops to conquer and control Syria and Libya? Those disasters are a result of this administrations actions. And the number 170,000 that you keep throwing out there? I don't believe that size of a presence was requested or required in 2009. A way smaller presence could have prevented the current mess.
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    Halifax2TheMax said:

    And Iraq is a billion times worse since 2003.

    Yes that's what happens when you invade a country and then withdraw with no care for what happens after.
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,126
    BS44325 said:

    Halifax2TheMax said:

    And Iraq is a billion times worse since 2003.

    Yes that's what happens when you invade a country and then withdraw with no care for what happens after.
    Thank god you weren't secretary of war in 1972. We'd still be in Vietnam taking casualties.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,126
    Please tell us what your sand table troop movements told you the appropriate troop levels were or are to pacify Iraq. Please?
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    Halifax2TheMax said:

    BS44325 said:

    Halifax2TheMax said:

    And Iraq is a billion times worse since 2003.

    Yes that's what happens when you invade a country and then withdraw with no care for what happens after.
    Thank god you weren't secretary of war in 1972. We'd still be in Vietnam taking casualties.
    And thank god Iran isn't being more belligerent

    https://news.usni.org/2016/10/15/cno-richardson-uss-mason-attacked-cruise-missiles-off-yemen

    Iranian-backed Houthi rebels continue to fire on US ships. Most people consider attacks on the Navy an act of war. I wonder where these rebels got those missles. Just a little Iranian seed money via the US government.
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    Halifax2TheMax said:

    Please tell us what your sand table troop movements told you the appropriate troop levels were or are to pacify Iraq. Please?

    I'm sorry but I asked you a question first. Where did you come up with the number 170,000?
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,126
    BS44325 said:

    Halifax2TheMax said:

    BS44325 said:

    Halifax2TheMax said:

    And Iraq is a billion times worse since 2003.

    Yes that's what happens when you invade a country and then withdraw with no care for what happens after.
    Thank god you weren't secretary of war in 1972. We'd still be in Vietnam taking casualties.
    And thank god Iran isn't being more belligerent

    https://news.usni.org/2016/10/15/cno-richardson-uss-mason-attacked-cruise-missiles-off-yemen

    Iranian-backed Houthi rebels continue to fire on US ships. Most people consider attacks on the Navy an act of war. I wonder where these rebels got those missles. Just a little Iranian seed money via the US government.
    But the Saudi bombing campaign that you championed was supposed to end the Houthi threat to the democratically elected government of Yemen. How's that working out for your ownership?
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    Halifax2TheMax said:

    BS44325 said:

    Halifax2TheMax said:

    BS44325 said:

    Halifax2TheMax said:

    And Iraq is a billion times worse since 2003.

    Yes that's what happens when you invade a country and then withdraw with no care for what happens after.
    Thank god you weren't secretary of war in 1972. We'd still be in Vietnam taking casualties.
    And thank god Iran isn't being more belligerent

    https://news.usni.org/2016/10/15/cno-richardson-uss-mason-attacked-cruise-missiles-off-yemen

    Iranian-backed Houthi rebels continue to fire on US ships. Most people consider attacks on the Navy an act of war. I wonder where these rebels got those missles. Just a little Iranian seed money via the US government.
    But the Saudi bombing campaign that you championed was supposed to end the Houthi threat to the democratically elected government of Yemen. How's that working out for your ownership?
    The Saudi bombing campaign that I championed? Do you just randomly make stuff up on here? It certainly appears that way.
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,126
    BS44325 said:

    Halifax2TheMax said:

    Please tell us what your sand table troop movements told you the appropriate troop levels were or are to pacify Iraq. Please?

    I'm sorry but I asked you a question first. Where did you come up with the number 170,000?
    You have repeatedly advocated for a surge level troop presence in Iraq. A number approximately north of 150,000. Now, you tell me what the surge level was. Talk about moving goal posts?
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,126
    BS44325 said:

    Halifax2TheMax said:

    BS44325 said:

    Halifax2TheMax said:

    And Iraq is a billion times worse since 2003.

    Yes that's what happens when you invade a country and then withdraw with no care for what happens after.
    Thank god you weren't secretary of war in 1972. We'd still be in Vietnam taking casualties.
    And thank god Iran isn't being more belligerent

    https://news.usni.org/2016/10/15/cno-richardson-uss-mason-attacked-cruise-missiles-off-yemen

    Iranian-backed Houthi rebels continue to fire on US ships. Most people consider attacks on the Navy an act of war. I wonder where these rebels got those missles. Just a little Iranian seed money via the US government.
    Perhaps, as a concerned citizen of Canada, you could call Ted Cruz and Paul Ryan and ask them to ask for a declaration of war. Seeing that you neocons want to do things by the constitution and all.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    Halifax2TheMax said:

    BS44325 said:

    Halifax2TheMax said:

    Please tell us what your sand table troop movements told you the appropriate troop levels were or are to pacify Iraq. Please?

    I'm sorry but I asked you a question first. Where did you come up with the number 170,000?
    You have repeatedly advocated for a surge level troop presence in Iraq. A number approximately north of 150,000. Now, you tell me what the surge level was. Talk about moving goal posts?
    See this is where your inattention to detail gets you into trouble. You mash up a whole bunch of conversations and topics without being able to maintain focus. You would not do well in one of my classes but on this point I am willing to slow down and make everyone in class wait for you to catch up.

    1) At the time of the surge there was about 110,000 or so troops in Iraq
    2) In the years prior to withdrawal those numbers came down to about 45-50000 troops
    3) At the time of withdrawal WHICH IS WHAT THIS GOSH DARN THREAD IS ABOUT the generals only wanted about 28000 troops to remain to maintain the peace. This is a number less then what is in South Korea today. Obama refused that number and considered maybe allowing 10000 to stay but decided against that during the SOFA fiasco.

    So nobody, no general, not me ever said a troop presence of 170000 was necessary to preserve the peace. A much "lighter footprint" of somewhere between 10000 - 28000 was argued for. Do you get that? Do you? Please say you do? If you cannot get the argument then you will have to go back and take reading comprehension 101 prior to enrolling in this course again. The other students cannot continue to wait for you to figure this material out.

    Now the second point which I hope doesn't confuse you but of course will...In terms of the surge force I argued for that was in reference to post-collapse Iraq more specifically around the time of when the Jordanian pilot was burned in January 2015. Now that death occured in Syria but it generated enough outrage that if the administration wanted to reengage it could have been an appropriate time. There was something still to salvage at that point. That window of opportunity was missed however and things are now so far gone that I am not even sure if there is any decent result left to salvage. In addition other powers such as Russia, Iran and Turkey are so entrenched that to reengage at this moment with a surge may in fact be an impossibility. The facts on the ground have changed. What hasn't change though is the argument that a small residual force could have prevented the horror that we see today.

    The end.
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    Halifax2TheMax said:

    BS44325 said:

    Halifax2TheMax said:

    BS44325 said:

    Halifax2TheMax said:

    And Iraq is a billion times worse since 2003.

    Yes that's what happens when you invade a country and then withdraw with no care for what happens after.
    Thank god you weren't secretary of war in 1972. We'd still be in Vietnam taking casualties.
    And thank god Iran isn't being more belligerent

    https://news.usni.org/2016/10/15/cno-richardson-uss-mason-attacked-cruise-missiles-off-yemen

    Iranian-backed Houthi rebels continue to fire on US ships. Most people consider attacks on the Navy an act of war. I wonder where these rebels got those missles. Just a little Iranian seed money via the US government.
    Perhaps, as a concerned citizen of Canada, you could call Ted Cruz and Paul Ryan and ask them to ask for a declaration of war. Seeing that you neocons want to do things by the constitution and all.
    At this point I'll probably just ask them to stop Obama from giving Iran all that cash.
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    edited October 2016
    BS44325 said:

    Halifax2TheMax said:

    BS44325 said:

    Halifax2TheMax said:

    BS44325 said:

    Halifax2TheMax said:

    And Iraq is a billion times worse since 2003.

    Yes that's what happens when you invade a country and then withdraw with no care for what happens after.
    Thank god you weren't secretary of war in 1972. We'd still be in Vietnam taking casualties.
    And thank god Iran isn't being more belligerent

    https://news.usni.org/2016/10/15/cno-richardson-uss-mason-attacked-cruise-missiles-off-yemen

    Iranian-backed Houthi rebels continue to fire on US ships. Most people consider attacks on the Navy an act of war. I wonder where these rebels got those missles. Just a little Iranian seed money via the US government.
    Perhaps, as a concerned citizen of Canada, you could call Ted Cruz and Paul Ryan and ask them to ask for a declaration of war. Seeing that you neocons want to do things by the constitution and all.
    At this point I'll probably just ask them to stop Obama from giving Iran all that cash.
    Actually this made me realize what a track record this administration now has:

    1) They lose track of guns in the Fast and Furious scandal which end up being used against US border agents
    2) They lose track of weapons being sent to rebels in syria which come back in the hands of ISIS to Libya and result in the loss of US servicemen there
    3) They give money back to Iran which ends up backstopping Houthi rebels that like to fire missiles at US sailors

    It's all working!
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    Tomorrow I start digging into Ryszard Kapuściński's book Shah of Shahs. Will be good to get some historical perspective on the middle east that does not come from a rock and roll fan site, haha!
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    brianlux said:

    Tomorrow I start digging into Ryszard Kapuściński's book Shah of Shahs. Will be good to get some historical perspective on the middle east that does not come from a rock and roll fan site, haha!

    The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright is a must read for perspective on al qaeda/ISIS etc and Circle in the Sand: Why We Went Back to Iraq by Christian Alfonsi is also pretty good on the subject of Iraq itself.
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    edited October 2016
    BS44325 said:

    brianlux said:

    Tomorrow I start digging into Ryszard Kapuściński's book Shah of Shahs. Will be good to get some historical perspective on the middle east that does not come from a rock and roll fan site, haha!

    The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright is a must read for perspective on al qaeda/ISIS etc and Circle in the Sand: Why We Went Back to Iraq by Christian Alfonsi is also pretty good on the subject of Iraq itself.
    Don't recall seeing those but will watch for them. Thanks BS.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,126
    BS44325 said:

    Halifax2TheMax said:

    BS44325 said:

    Halifax2TheMax said:

    Please tell us what your sand table troop movements told you the appropriate troop levels were or are to pacify Iraq. Please?

    I'm sorry but I asked you a question first. Where did you come up with the number 170,000?
    You have repeatedly advocated for a surge level troop presence in Iraq. A number approximately north of 150,000. Now, you tell me what the surge level was. Talk about moving goal posts?
    See this is where your inattention to detail gets you into trouble. You mash up a whole bunch of conversations and topics without being able to maintain focus. You would not do well in one of my classes but on this point I am willing to slow down and make everyone in class wait for you to catch up.

    1) At the time of the surge there was about 110,000 or so troops in Iraq
    2) In the years prior to withdrawal those numbers came down to about 45-50000 troops
    3) At the time of withdrawal WHICH IS WHAT THIS GOSH DARN THREAD IS ABOUT the generals only wanted about 28000 troops to remain to maintain the peace. This is a number less then what is in South Korea today. Obama refused that number and considered maybe allowing 10000 to stay but decided against that during the SOFA fiasco.

    So nobody, no general, not me ever said a troop presence of 170000 was necessary to preserve the peace. A much "lighter footprint" of somewhere between 10000 - 28000 was argued for. Do you get that? Do you? Please say you do? If you cannot get the argument then you will have to go back and take reading comprehension 101 prior to enrolling in this course again. The other students cannot continue to wait for you to figure this material out.

    Now the second point which I hope doesn't confuse you but of course will...In terms of the surge force I argued for that was in reference to post-collapse Iraq more specifically around the time of when the Jordanian pilot was burned in January 2015. Now that death occured in Syria but it generated enough outrage that if the administration wanted to reengage it could have been an appropriate time. There was something still to salvage at that point. That window of opportunity was missed however and things are now so far gone that I am not even sure if there is any decent result left to salvage. In addition other powers such as Russia, Iran and Turkey are so entrenched that to reengage at this moment with a surge may in fact be an impossibility. The facts on the ground have changed. What hasn't change though is the argument that a small residual force could have prevented the horror that we see today.

    The end.
    Got a link? A source? You making shit up again? Revising history to justify your misadventure? What date does your surge begin? What source are you relying upon for your troop count? And why are you yelling? If you repeat it enough, or scream it, it doesn't make it true.
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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,126
    The horror today is nothing like what was unleashed in 2003. How do you sleep at night?
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