Kurt Cobain: Montage of Heck

smarchee

Smarter_Than_U said:

Maybe this is something already widely theorized, but if this theory is true, it is upsetting to know that Courtney and Billy Corgan to some degree assume some blame for pushing perhaps one of the most talented (yet tortured) artists we've seen for decades into the abyss.

yeah it was theorized and written about and probably confirmed that Courtney was hanging with Billy at the time. I was wondering if she was going to come right out and say his name, it looked like the thought occurred to her during the interview

smarchee

Just watched this and was taken through the ringer of emotions of this documentary. Good to see the footage of them playing to small crowds while Bleach was out before they got famous, I mean they were playing in that record shop for the release of Nevermind and they were crowd surfing.

He was definitely a bright, talented, vivacious, caring kid and then his world was shattered by that divorce and the embrassment and shame that brought to him. That was definitely life changing for him.

The footage of him and Courtney living together after they were married was stunning, they were totally high out of their minds during alot of that footage. I too thought that one scene was uncomfortable where Kurt was breaking that guitar and Courtney hanging on to him. Sad to see the haircut scene but you can tell Kurt would have been a good dad if not for the massive drug problem. He seemed to be entertained by childish things and would be able to be entertained and be entertained with Frances wholeheartedly.

Hilarious scenes ridiculing the media with Frances in the camera using a kid voice as well as mouthing the words to the fan letters to Sassy that Courtney was reading

Spartanacus

Just finished this last night. Words cannot describe, but all I want to accomplish today is to listen to With The Lights Out in it's entirety and then buy up all the other released live tracks I don't already own.

A lot has already been mentioned on this thread, but the trippy animations they somehow did on his artwork (I assume it was all his) was incredible. The production value of this movie alone make it worth a watch/purchase.

Other highlights...the early shows, the animation (some of which were 'dubbed' over actual recordings), and the happy parts in his life where he smiled and enjoyed Frances (while not completely stoned).

The lowlights (hard to watch)...obviously his decay and the scenes where he's loaded out of his mind with Frances around. We're not talking being high on some grass here...but the hardcore shit.

And then there is Courtney. Not sure what to say here. You can question if she's either pretty hard up for additional money/exposure, or you could say she's courageous for allowing this to surface. I mean, how much more personal can you get??? Did she take it too far? Perhaps. But if Frances was okay with it, so be it.

As far as some posts saying Nirvana is dated. Totally disagree. Nirvana will always be relevant as long as there are youths who are having a hard time fitting into society. And even at 42 years old, all of their music still strikes a chord with me.

Wobbie

Gardenparty said:

yes, she shared her clam with us back at 1995 Lollapalooza as well.

l

Seems like Courtney's hole could have its own thread.

darthvedder

Spartanacus said:

And then there is Courtney. Not sure what to say here. You can question if she's either pretty hard up for additional money/exposure, or you could say she's courageous for allowing this to surface. I mean, how much more personal can you get??? Did she take it too far? Perhaps. But if Frances was okay with it, so be it.

According to the Rolling Stone interview with Frances, Courtney had no editorial role in the documentary. It was Courtney's idea in the first place, but as soon as Frances turned 18, she started calling the shots.

Thoughts_Arrive

Spartanacus said:

Just finished this last night. Words cannot describe, but all I want to accomplish today is to listen to With The Lights Out in it's entirety and then buy up all the other released live tracks I don't already own.

A lot has already been mentioned on this thread, but the trippy animations they somehow did on his artwork (I assume it was all his) was incredible. The production value of this movie alone make it worth a watch/purchase.

Other highlights...the early shows, the animation (some of which were 'dubbed' over actual recordings), and the happy parts in his life where he smiled and enjoyed Frances (while not completely stoned).

The lowlights (hard to watch)...obviously his decay and the scenes where he's loaded out of his mind with Frances around. We're not talking being high on some grass here...but the hardcore shit.

And then there is Courtney. Not sure what to say here. You can question if she's either pretty hard up for additional money/exposure, or you could say she's courageous for allowing this to surface. I mean, how much more personal can you get??? Did she take it too far? Perhaps. But if Frances was okay with it, so be it.

As far as some posts saying Nirvana is dated. Totally disagree. Nirvana will always be relevant as long as there are youths who are having a hard time fitting into society. And even at 42 years old, all of their music still strikes a chord with me.

I am 31 almost and Nirvana are the only band whose music I can relate to so deeply.
Heck, I still struggle to fit in with society and feel down a lot so until I find the light Nirvana will be my light.

Thoughts_Arrive

Smarter_Than_U said:

Until I saw this I tended to be a Courtney Love apologist. After watching this, do I think she killed KC? No. Not like some conspiracy theorists suggest. But it is clear after watching this that while he was spinning out of control, the people closest to him did not do him any favors--particularly Courtney by cheating on him (or planning to cheat). First as a kid, Kurt is rejected by his family that reared him; then ultimately he is rejected by the family he created as an adult. KC of course is not absolved of responsibility for his own demise, but he certainly could have picked a better wife based on who he was and what his weaknesses were -- that much is clear to me after watching this documentary.

In terms of Courtney Love's admission that she planned to cheat on Kurt (which the documentary pretty strongly implies was what pushed him over the edge): Courtney specifically references that the planned (but aborted) affair was to happen in London and that planned affair was what led KC to overdose in Rome on 3/3/94. Something I have not heard others talk about (maybe I missed it though), is that Smashing Pumpkins had a four-night stand in London at the end of February 1994 (http://www.spfc.org/tours/date.html?year=1994) immediately before Kurt's overdose in Rome. SP's presence in London combined with the fact that Courtney and Billy Corgan were together before she hooked up with Kurt and then after he died leads me to believe that Corgan was the person with which she was planning on cheating. Maybe this is something already widely theorized, but if this theory is true, it is upsetting to know that Courtney and Billy Corgan to some degree assume some blame for pushing perhaps one of the most talented (yet tortured) artists we've seen for decades into the abyss.

One other tidbit... If you look at Nirvana's setlists for the In Utero Tour, they open every night with "Radio Friendly Unit Shifter." This-- in and of itself --is not interesting. But their last show on 3/1/94 (the last show Kurt Cobain would ever play) the band makes what now seems to be --in light of the "Montage of Heck" documentary --a significant change to their opener with a Cars cover "My Best Friends' Girl" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikkhmkAH72U). Who knows who was in the audience, but with what was to ensue over the next few days and weeks, it seems like he was sending a message to someone with this song.

Beyond seeing what a sweet child he was in the home videos, what a gifted visual artist Kurt was, and being reminded of how much I absolutely love Nirvana, one of my biggest takeaways from this documentary is that it is a shame Kurt Cobain put his love and faith in to a person that was not good for him, especially given how fucked up he was coming to the table. You have to wonder if he hooked up with someone like Kathleen Hanna instead of Courtney if things would have turned out differently. We'll never know.

He should've stayed with Tracey.

Smarter_Than_U

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Smarter_Than_U said:

Until I saw this I tended to be a Courtney Love apologist. After watching this, do I think she killed KC? No. Not like some conspiracy theorists suggest. But it is clear after watching this that while he was spinning out of control, the people closest to him did not do him any favors--particularly Courtney by cheating on him (or planning to cheat). First as a kid, Kurt is rejected by his family that reared him; then ultimately he is rejected by the family he created as an adult. KC of course is not absolved of responsibility for his own demise, but he certainly could have picked a better wife based on who he was and what his weaknesses were -- that much is clear to me after watching this documentary.

In terms of Courtney Love's admission that she planned to cheat on Kurt (which the documentary pretty strongly implies was what pushed him over the edge): Courtney specifically references that the planned (but aborted) affair was to happen in London and that planned affair was what led KC to overdose in Rome on 3/3/94. Something I have not heard others talk about (maybe I missed it though), is that Smashing Pumpkins had a four-night stand in London at the end of February 1994 (http://www.spfc.org/tours/date.html?year=1994) immediately before Kurt's overdose in Rome. SP's presence in London combined with the fact that Courtney and Billy Corgan were together before she hooked up with Kurt and then after he died leads me to believe that Corgan was the person with which she was planning on cheating. Maybe this is something already widely theorized, but if this theory is true, it is upsetting to know that Courtney and Billy Corgan to some degree assume some blame for pushing perhaps one of the most talented (yet tortured) artists we've seen for decades into the abyss.

One other tidbit... If you look at Nirvana's setlists for the In Utero Tour, they open every night with "Radio Friendly Unit Shifter." This-- in and of itself --is not interesting. But their last show on 3/1/94 (the last show Kurt Cobain would ever play) the band makes what now seems to be --in light of the "Montage of Heck" documentary --a significant change to their opener with a Cars cover "My Best Friends' Girl" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikkhmkAH72U). Who knows who was in the audience, but with what was to ensue over the next few days and weeks, it seems like he was sending a message to someone with this song.

Beyond seeing what a sweet child he was in the home videos, what a gifted visual artist Kurt was, and being reminded of how much I absolutely love Nirvana, one of my biggest takeaways from this documentary is that it is a shame Kurt Cobain put his love and faith in to a person that was not good for him, especially given how fucked up he was coming to the table. You have to wonder if he hooked up with someone like Kathleen Hanna instead of Courtney if things would have turned out differently. We'll never know.

He should've stayed with Tracey.

I totally agree-- it seems that that was his most creative/peaceful period based on the film.

Two other thoughts since my last post.

#1 The interview KC did with Rolling Stone with the cover "Success doesn't suck" -- it was really interesting to HEAR his voice for parts of it. He sounded really fucked up in that interview, which is not how I heard his voice when I only had access to the article; HEARING him changes that whole interview for me but sadly makes more sense now. He was clearly in a high/manic state not on solid footing as I pictured him; that interview always confused me given how happy he seemed and the proximity to his suicide.

#2 To some degree from that same interview, he talks about not having any more new songs. One of the shames of all this is the larger role Dave Grohl could have had in Nirvana.

Imagine Kurt Cobain and Dave Grohl as an actual song writing duo. Kurt would have probably pushed Dave to be less predictable and Dave would have pulled Kurt to be more accessible. The combo could have been sonic fucking heaven--our very own Lennon and McCartney for the post-punk era.

Smarter_Than_U

smarchee said:

Smarter_Than_U said:

Maybe this is something already widely theorized, but if this theory is true, it is upsetting to know that Courtney and Billy Corgan to some degree assume some blame for pushing perhaps one of the most talented (yet tortured) artists we've seen for decades into the abyss.

yeah it was theorized and written about and probably confirmed that Courtney was hanging with Billy at the time. I was wondering if she was going to come right out and say his name, it looked like the thought occurred to her during the interview

True--you could see her trying to contain herself but having trouble in that part of the interview. What she is saying doesn't even make sense because she references "a plan" and "London" but at the same time says something like "I didn't even make the call ... I only thought about it and he knew." So if there is a plan to meet somebody in London (Billy Corgan most likely) then how the fuck did that plan come to be? By osmosis?

She is not telling the full story.

HughFreakingDillon

Smarter_Than_U said:

smarchee said:

Smarter_Than_U said:

Maybe this is something already widely theorized, but if this theory is true, it is upsetting to know that Courtney and Billy Corgan to some degree assume some blame for pushing perhaps one of the most talented (yet tortured) artists we've seen for decades into the abyss.

yeah it was theorized and written about and probably confirmed that Courtney was hanging with Billy at the time. I was wondering if she was going to come right out and say his name, it looked like the thought occurred to her during the interview

True--you could see her trying to contain herself but having trouble in that part of the interview. What she is saying doesn't even make sense because she references "a plan" and "London" but at the same time says something like "I didn't even make the call ... I only thought about it and he knew." So if there is a plan to meet somebody in London (Billy Corgan most likely) then how the fuck did that plan come to be? By osmosis?

She is not telling the full story.

maybe the Pumpkins were on tour in London at the time, and she was planning on paying him a surprise visit.

HughFreakingDillon

Smarter_Than_U said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Smarter_Than_U said:

Until I saw this I tended to be a Courtney Love apologist. After watching this, do I think she killed KC? No. Not like some conspiracy theorists suggest. But it is clear after watching this that while he was spinning out of control, the people closest to him did not do him any favors--particularly Courtney by cheating on him (or planning to cheat). First as a kid, Kurt is rejected by his family that reared him; then ultimately he is rejected by the family he created as an adult. KC of course is not absolved of responsibility for his own demise, but he certainly could have picked a better wife based on who he was and what his weaknesses were -- that much is clear to me after watching this documentary.

In terms of Courtney Love's admission that she planned to cheat on Kurt (which the documentary pretty strongly implies was what pushed him over the edge): Courtney specifically references that the planned (but aborted) affair was to happen in London and that planned affair was what led KC to overdose in Rome on 3/3/94. Something I have not heard others talk about (maybe I missed it though), is that Smashing Pumpkins had a four-night stand in London at the end of February 1994 (http://www.spfc.org/tours/date.html?year=1994) immediately before Kurt's overdose in Rome. SP's presence in London combined with the fact that Courtney and Billy Corgan were together before she hooked up with Kurt and then after he died leads me to believe that Corgan was the person with which she was planning on cheating. Maybe this is something already widely theorized, but if this theory is true, it is upsetting to know that Courtney and Billy Corgan to some degree assume some blame for pushing perhaps one of the most talented (yet tortured) artists we've seen for decades into the abyss.

One other tidbit... If you look at Nirvana's setlists for the In Utero Tour, they open every night with "Radio Friendly Unit Shifter." This-- in and of itself --is not interesting. But their last show on 3/1/94 (the last show Kurt Cobain would ever play) the band makes what now seems to be --in light of the "Montage of Heck" documentary --a significant change to their opener with a Cars cover "My Best Friends' Girl" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikkhmkAH72U). Who knows who was in the audience, but with what was to ensue over the next few days and weeks, it seems like he was sending a message to someone with this song.

Beyond seeing what a sweet child he was in the home videos, what a gifted visual artist Kurt was, and being reminded of how much I absolutely love Nirvana, one of my biggest takeaways from this documentary is that it is a shame Kurt Cobain put his love and faith in to a person that was not good for him, especially given how fucked up he was coming to the table. You have to wonder if he hooked up with someone like Kathleen Hanna instead of Courtney if things would have turned out differently. We'll never know.

He should've stayed with Tracey.

I totally agree-- it seems that that was his most creative period based on the film.

Two other thoughts since my last post.

#1 The interview KC did with Rolling Stone with the cover "success doesn't suck" -- it was really interesting to HEAR his voice for parts of it. He sounded really fucked up in that interview, which is not how I heard his voice when I only had it written; hearing that changes that whole thing for me but sadly makes more sense now. He was clearly in a high/manic state for that interview.

#2 To some degree from that same interview, he talks about not having any more new songs. One of the shames of all this that does not get discussed is to role Dave Grohl could have had in Nirvana. Imagine Kurt Cobain and Dave Grohl as an actual song writing duo. Kurt would have probably pushed Dave to be less predictable and Dave would have pulled Kurt to be more accessible. The combo could have been sonic fucking heaven--our very own Lennon and McCartney for the post-punk era.

#2. never thought of that. that would have been something.

Smarter_Than_U

HughFreakingDillon said:

Smarter_Than_U said:

smarchee said:

Smarter_Than_U said:

Maybe this is something already widely theorized, but if this theory is true, it is upsetting to know that Courtney and Billy Corgan to some degree assume some blame for pushing perhaps one of the most talented (yet tortured) artists we've seen for decades into the abyss.

yeah it was theorized and written about and probably confirmed that Courtney was hanging with Billy at the time. I was wondering if she was going to come right out and say his name, it looked like the thought occurred to her during the interview

True--you could see her trying to contain herself but having trouble in that part of the interview. What she is saying doesn't even make sense because she references "a plan" and "London" but at the same time says something like "I didn't even make the call ... I only thought about it and he knew." So if there is a plan to meet somebody in London (Billy Corgan most likely) then how the fuck did that plan come to be? By osmosis?

She is not telling the full story.

maybe the Pumpkins were on tour in London at the time, and she was planning on paying him a surprise visit.

Possibly but I doubt it since they were both married and a surprise visit doesn't lend itself well to discretion.

HughFreakingDillon

Smarter_Than_U said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Smarter_Than_U said:

smarchee said:

Smarter_Than_U said:

Maybe this is something already widely theorized, but if this theory is true, it is upsetting to know that Courtney and Billy Corgan to some degree assume some blame for pushing perhaps one of the most talented (yet tortured) artists we've seen for decades into the abyss.

yeah it was theorized and written about and probably confirmed that Courtney was hanging with Billy at the time. I was wondering if she was going to come right out and say his name, it looked like the thought occurred to her during the interview

True--you could see her trying to contain herself but having trouble in that part of the interview. What she is saying doesn't even make sense because she references "a plan" and "London" but at the same time says something like "I didn't even make the call ... I only thought about it and he knew." So if there is a plan to meet somebody in London (Billy Corgan most likely) then how the fuck did that plan come to be? By osmosis?

She is not telling the full story.

maybe the Pumpkins were on tour in London at the time, and she was planning on paying him a surprise visit.

Possibly but I doubt it since they were both married and a surprise visit doesn't lend itself well to discretion.

well, in pre internet days, it could easily have been pulled off. but yeah, her comments on that part were very vague.

Thoughts_Arrive

Smarter_Than_U said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Smarter_Than_U said:

Until I saw this I tended to be a Courtney Love apologist. After watching this, do I think she killed KC? No. Not like some conspiracy theorists suggest. But it is clear after watching this that while he was spinning out of control, the people closest to him did not do him any favors--particularly Courtney by cheating on him (or planning to cheat). First as a kid, Kurt is rejected by his family that reared him; then ultimately he is rejected by the family he created as an adult. KC of course is not absolved of responsibility for his own demise, but he certainly could have picked a better wife based on who he was and what his weaknesses were -- that much is clear to me after watching this documentary.

In terms of Courtney Love's admission that she planned to cheat on Kurt (which the documentary pretty strongly implies was what pushed him over the edge): Courtney specifically references that the planned (but aborted) affair was to happen in London and that planned affair was what led KC to overdose in Rome on 3/3/94. Something I have not heard others talk about (maybe I missed it though), is that Smashing Pumpkins had a four-night stand in London at the end of February 1994 (http://www.spfc.org/tours/date.html?year=1994) immediately before Kurt's overdose in Rome. SP's presence in London combined with the fact that Courtney and Billy Corgan were together before she hooked up with Kurt and then after he died leads me to believe that Corgan was the person with which she was planning on cheating. Maybe this is something already widely theorized, but if this theory is true, it is upsetting to know that Courtney and Billy Corgan to some degree assume some blame for pushing perhaps one of the most talented (yet tortured) artists we've seen for decades into the abyss.

One other tidbit... If you look at Nirvana's setlists for the In Utero Tour, they open every night with "Radio Friendly Unit Shifter." This-- in and of itself --is not interesting. But their last show on 3/1/94 (the last show Kurt Cobain would ever play) the band makes what now seems to be --in light of the "Montage of Heck" documentary --a significant change to their opener with a Cars cover "My Best Friends' Girl" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikkhmkAH72U). Who knows who was in the audience, but with what was to ensue over the next few days and weeks, it seems like he was sending a message to someone with this song.

Beyond seeing what a sweet child he was in the home videos, what a gifted visual artist Kurt was, and being reminded of how much I absolutely love Nirvana, one of my biggest takeaways from this documentary is that it is a shame Kurt Cobain put his love and faith in to a person that was not good for him, especially given how fucked up he was coming to the table. You have to wonder if he hooked up with someone like Kathleen Hanna instead of Courtney if things would have turned out differently. We'll never know.

He should've stayed with Tracey.

I totally agree-- it seems that that was his most creative/peaceful period based on the film.

Two other thoughts since my last post.

#1 The interview KC did with Rolling Stone with the cover "Success doesn't suck" -- it was really interesting to HEAR his voice for parts of it. He sounded really fucked up in that interview, which is not how I heard his voice when I only had access to the article; HEARING him changes that whole interview for me but sadly makes more sense now. He was clearly in a high/manic state not on solid footing as I pictured him; that interview always confused me given how happy he seemed and the proximity to his suicide.

#2 To some degree from that same interview, he talks about not having any more new songs. One of the shames of all this is the larger role Dave Grohl could have had in Nirvana.

Imagine Kurt Cobain and Dave Grohl as an actual song writing duo. Kurt would have probably pushed Dave to be less predictable and Dave would have pulled Kurt to be more accessible. The combo could have been sonic fucking heaven--our very own Lennon and McCartney for the post-punk era.

Kurt & Dave would've been epic.
Even Kurt & Stipe would've been fantastic.
Kurt had to much material that could've made another album, as those songs on With The Lights Out box set show. Some gems there.

Thoughts_Arrive

DVD/Blu Ray release in Australia on June 5th, oh yeah!

http://www.fasterlouder.com.au/news/42827/Montage-of-Heck-gets-DVD-release-with-a-stack-of-bonus-material

pljam

It just arrived here in Australia two days ago,I purchased it straight away and shot home very interested to get it on.
I am not an over the top Nirvana fan but absolutely love particular songs,especially MTV unplugged one of the best acoustic albums ever done,,that being said I don't think I would watch it again ,I am torn between feeling so sorry for what I think was a tortured lost soul best part of his life.Kurt was definitely a talent and found expression through his music but I gathered from the film Kurt was on the road to his fate if he had of been a plumber ,doctor or fisherman,obviously the drugs would maybe not have been as prevalent as the in the music scene but they would have found Kurt or be it Kurt find them
I think he loved Courtney and the film betrayed this but I don't know if it was the gear or the love
All in all it is a real heartbreaker and I couldn't help thinking during and even till now Eddie was in a similar place TEN,V'S and VITALOGY days also expressed this through his lyrics ,he turned that and has given us nearly 25 yrs of brilliant music,sadly Kurt isn't doing the same
I have lead a pretty tortured life at times and I think great musician's that have the ability to express it through song ie EDDIE/PJ and Kurt /NIRVANA save the souls of thousands,shame Mr Cobain didn't see a little more of that side but he walked in his shoes,we can only make assumptions on what we see and if that DVD is an insight fck me ,KING OF A LONELY WORLD

badbrains

You guys should read the buzz Osbourne interview he did about the review he gave about this documentary.

BIGDaddyWil

^^^^^^^ Here you go.......http://antiquiet.com/misc/truth/2015/06/90-of-montage-of-heck-is-bullshit/

HughFreakingDillon

badbrains said:

You guys should read the buzz Osbourne interview he did about the review he gave about this documentary.

King Buzzo is an absolute asshole. not just for what he says about the film, but everything he says about anyone around that scene. he acts like he's the only "geniune" person from that era, and that everyone else is full of shit and talentless and sell outs.

he comes off as a jealous and bitter piece of shit.

badbrains

HughFreakingDillon said:

badbrains said:

You guys should read the buzz Osbourne interview he did about the review he gave about this documentary.

King Buzzo is an absolute asshole. not just for what he says about the film, but everything he says about anyone around that scene. he acts like he's the only "geniune" person from that era, and that everyone else is full of shit and talentless and sell outs.

he comes off as a jealous and bitter piece of shit.

That maybe true but I'd take his word over Courtney Loves any day.