Why Are Republicans At War With Reality?

hedonist

dignin said:

hedonist said:

brianlux said:

BS44325 said:

backseatLover12 said:

To think “logically,” people must think calmly and clearly, rationally, so obviously to keep that from happening emotions must be created to keep rational thinking out of the picture. Fear, racism, anger, selfishness, hatred and war all drive out cool, collected thinking, so obviously fear, racism, anger, selfishness, hatred and war have to be promoted at all cost … cost is no problem when the future of the 0.01 percent’s fortunes and power are at stake.

The problem with this quote is that it assumes your fellow citizens are stupid. That they cannot think for themselves. That you are enlightened yet they are rubes. You are rational while their minds arw under the control of the 0.01%. It's quite an elitist attitude.

Well, yeah, I actually think that's about right... only I wouldn't use words like "stupid" or "rubes", but I would say too many of my fellow citizens are uninformed, uneducated, incurious, apathetic, disinterested, lazy or any combination of those traits. And I know some people who are very much like that whom I care very much for but I also know I wouldn't want them making major decisions regarding important matters... unless it's something like bringing the guacamole to the party.

Ouch.

This is a shame to read and I think the clarifying of terms is a bit of semantics and word-play. If not for the source, I'd say more than insulting as well.

Good thing I make a badass guacamole!

Really? Why would you be insulted?

I think he's perfectly clear....and right.


Usually the opinions of people I respect have an impact; others, not so much. Probably something I need to get over. Was thrown for a bit of a loop, as the string of posts seemed to write off many who might see things differently and not fall under such sweeping descriptions.

But, right and wrong are, I suppose, subjective.

Just like guacamole recipes.

brianlux

hedonist said:

brianlux said:

BS44325 said:

backseatLover12 said:

To think “logically,” people must think calmly and clearly, rationally, so obviously to keep that from happening emotions must be created to keep rational thinking out of the picture. Fear, racism, anger, selfishness, hatred and war all drive out cool, collected thinking, so obviously fear, racism, anger, selfishness, hatred and war have to be promoted at all cost … cost is no problem when the future of the 0.01 percent’s fortunes and power are at stake.

The problem with this quote is that it assumes your fellow citizens are stupid. That they cannot think for themselves. That you are enlightened yet they are rubes. You are rational while their minds arw under the control of the 0.01%. It's quite an elitist attitude.

Well, yeah, I actually think that's about right... only I wouldn't use words like "stupid" or "rubes", but I would say too many of my fellow citizens are uninformed, uneducated, incurious, apathetic, disinterested, lazy or any combination of those traits. And I know some people who are very much like that whom I care very much for but I also know I wouldn't want them making major decisions regarding important matters... unless it's something like bringing the guacamole to the party.

Ouch.

This is a shame to read and I think the clarifying of terms is a bit of semantics and word-play. If not for the source, I'd say more than insulting as well.

Good thing I make a badass guacamole!


What I said was not intended to be insulting at all. It's just an observation.

Look, I've worked with the public in a variety of bookstore settings. I've taught school- a 5/6 combo, middle and high school and a few years at a community college. When I was young, I worked in an auto parts store for five years. I've lived in four states. I've been around a lot of people and frankly, I honestly believe what I said about my fellow citizen. Do I like that so many people are unconcerned, apathetic, etc? Hell no. Do I think I'm better than they are? No. Better educated than the average citizen? Yes... but better? No. I've known many people who are less educated and less informed than I am but that certainly doesn't make me better or them worse. So, no, I don't think I was being insulting at all. But I still stand by what I said because I think it is true. I'm just saying honestly what I see. I'm sorry if what I said sounds offensive offends you, H. It was not meant to be.

All of us here are more informed than your average fellow citizen. What percentage of the general population has a clue as to what's going on in the world? Way too few, wouldn't you all agree?

PJfanwillneverleave1

brianlux said:

hedonist said:

brianlux said:

BS44325 said:

backseatLover12 said:

To think “logically,” people must think calmly and clearly, rationally, so obviously to keep that from happening emotions must be created to keep rational thinking out of the picture. Fear, racism, anger, selfishness, hatred and war all drive out cool, collected thinking, so obviously fear, racism, anger, selfishness, hatred and war have to be promoted at all cost … cost is no problem when the future of the 0.01 percent’s fortunes and power are at stake.

The problem with this quote is that it assumes your fellow citizens are stupid. That they cannot think for themselves. That you are enlightened yet they are rubes. You are rational while their minds arw under the control of the 0.01%. It's quite an elitist attitude.

Well, yeah, I actually think that's about right... only I wouldn't use words like "stupid" or "rubes", but I would say too many of my fellow citizens are uninformed, uneducated, incurious, apathetic, disinterested, lazy or any combination of those traits. And I know some people who are very much like that whom I care very much for but I also know I wouldn't want them making major decisions regarding important matters... unless it's something like bringing the guacamole to the party.

Ouch.

This is a shame to read and I think the clarifying of terms is a bit of semantics and word-play. If not for the source, I'd say more than insulting as well.

Good thing I make a badass guacamole!

What I said was not intended to be insulting at all. It's just an observation.

Look, I've worked with the public in a variety of bookstore settings. I've taught school- a 5/6 combo, middle and high school and a few years at a community college. When I was young, I worked in an auto parts store for five years. I've lived in four states. I've been around a lot of people and frankly, I honestly believe what I said about my fellow citizen. Do I like that so many people are unconcerned, apathetic, etc? Hell no. Do I think I'm better than they are? No. Better educated than the average citizen? Yes... but better? No. I've known many people who are less educated and less informed than I am but that certainly doesn't make me better or them worse. So, no, I don't think I was being insulting at all. But I still stand by what I said because I think it is true. I'm just saying honestly what I see. I'm sorry if what I said sounds offensive offends you, H. It was not meant to be.

All of us here are more informed than your average fellow citizen. What percentage of the general population has a clue as to what's going on in the world? Way too few, wouldn't you all agree?



Is this the post where you get mad and sign off for awhile?
Or is this the post where you pm and ask not to respond to each other?

badbrains

brianlux said:

hedonist said:

brianlux said:

BS44325 said:

backseatLover12 said:

To think “logically,” people must think calmly and clearly, rationally, so obviously to keep that from happening emotions must be created to keep rational thinking out of the picture. Fear, racism, anger, selfishness, hatred and war all drive out cool, collected thinking, so obviously fear, racism, anger, selfishness, hatred and war have to be promoted at all cost … cost is no problem when the future of the 0.01 percent’s fortunes and power are at stake.

The problem with this quote is that it assumes your fellow citizens are stupid. That they cannot think for themselves. That you are enlightened yet they are rubes. You are rational while their minds arw under the control of the 0.01%. It's quite an elitist attitude.

Well, yeah, I actually think that's about right... only I wouldn't use words like "stupid" or "rubes", but I would say too many of my fellow citizens are uninformed, uneducated, incurious, apathetic, disinterested, lazy or any combination of those traits. And I know some people who are very much like that whom I care very much for but I also know I wouldn't want them making major decisions regarding important matters... unless it's something like bringing the guacamole to the party.

Ouch.

This is a shame to read and I think the clarifying of terms is a bit of semantics and word-play. If not for the source, I'd say more than insulting as well.

Good thing I make a badass guacamole!

All of us here are more informed than your average fellow citizen. What percentage of the general population has a clue as to what's going on in the world? Way too few, wouldn't you all agree?



I agree with this. There are def smart Fucken people in here. On both sides, if there's any sides. I may not agree with some on here, doesn't mean I don't think highly of the intelligence. Pretty smart Fucken people in here no doubt. But there's some who actually think they're intelligent, but in reality, have no clue.

backseatLover12

brianlux said:

BS44325 said:

backseatLover12 said:

To think “logically,” people must think calmly and clearly, rationally, so obviously to keep that from happening emotions must be created to keep rational thinking out of the picture. Fear, racism, anger, selfishness, hatred and war all drive out cool, collected thinking, so obviously fear, racism, anger, selfishness, hatred and war have to be promoted at all cost … cost is no problem when the future of the 0.01 percent’s fortunes and power are at stake.

The problem with this quote is that it assumes your fellow citizens are stupid. That they cannot think for themselves. That you are enlightened yet they are rubes. You are rational while their minds arw under the control of the 0.01%. It's quite an elitist attitude.

Well, yeah, I actually think that's about right... only I wouldn't use words like "stupid" or "rubes", but I would say too many of my fellow citizens are uninformed, uneducated, incurious, apathetic, disinterested, lazy or any combination of those traits. And I know some people who are very much like that whom I care very much for but I also know I wouldn't want them making major decisions regarding important matters... unless it's something like bringing the guacamole to the party.


Absolutely, we have a situation in our country right now where more people are uninformed and lazy, ignorant and apathetic, just looking out for ourselves mentality and the like more then ever before. No need to take it personally. Because it's an accurate look at Americans right now. Look at the thread about race responsibility, no one wants to talk about it. Hello?

benjs

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

brianlux said:

hedonist said:

brianlux said:

BS44325 said:

backseatLover12 said:

To think “logically,” people must think calmly and clearly, rationally, so obviously to keep that from happening emotions must be created to keep rational thinking out of the picture. Fear, racism, anger, selfishness, hatred and war all drive out cool, collected thinking, so obviously fear, racism, anger, selfishness, hatred and war have to be promoted at all cost … cost is no problem when the future of the 0.01 percent’s fortunes and power are at stake.

The problem with this quote is that it assumes your fellow citizens are stupid. That they cannot think for themselves. That you are enlightened yet they are rubes. You are rational while their minds arw under the control of the 0.01%. It's quite an elitist attitude.

Well, yeah, I actually think that's about right... only I wouldn't use words like "stupid" or "rubes", but I would say too many of my fellow citizens are uninformed, uneducated, incurious, apathetic, disinterested, lazy or any combination of those traits. And I know some people who are very much like that whom I care very much for but I also know I wouldn't want them making major decisions regarding important matters... unless it's something like bringing the guacamole to the party.

Ouch.

This is a shame to read and I think the clarifying of terms is a bit of semantics and word-play. If not for the source, I'd say more than insulting as well.

Good thing I make a badass guacamole!

What I said was not intended to be insulting at all. It's just an observation.

Look, I've worked with the public in a variety of bookstore settings. I've taught school- a 5/6 combo, middle and high school and a few years at a community college. When I was young, I worked in an auto parts store for five years. I've lived in four states. I've been around a lot of people and frankly, I honestly believe what I said about my fellow citizen. Do I like that so many people are unconcerned, apathetic, etc? Hell no. Do I think I'm better than they are? No. Better educated than the average citizen? Yes... but better? No. I've known many people who are less educated and less informed than I am but that certainly doesn't make me better or them worse. So, no, I don't think I was being insulting at all. But I still stand by what I said because I think it is true. I'm just saying honestly what I see. I'm sorry if what I said sounds offensive offends you, H. It was not meant to be.

All of us here are more informed than your average fellow citizen. What percentage of the general population has a clue as to what's going on in the world? Way too few, wouldn't you all agree?

Is this the post where you get mad and sign off for awhile?
Or is this the post where you pm and ask not to respond to each other?



I've yet to see brianlux do either on this forum. I don't see anything wrong with how this ultimately respectful disagreement has been handled between Hedo and Brian.

Back to the 'stupid'/'uninformed' comment - I don't think the original quote assumes citizen stupidity. What it does is recognize the power of emotional response, which is irrefutably strong. Cults, religions, dictatorships, partnership (i.e. dating/marriage) - just a few forms of largely emotionally-fueled (and rarely logically-fueled) collective phenomena which absolute atrocities have been justified by. This does not mean that every member of the Nazi regime was stupid. Nor does it mean that the Crusades were inherently stupid people. Nor Jim Jones' group. And I'd like to think I'm not stupid - nor anyone else in a relationship.

I was listening to a radio show by a man who had been 'nurtured' into a cult forty years ago, escaped, and became highly outspoken about what he coined 'ethical vs unethical thought manipulation'. A key point of what he shares is that the targets of all of these propaganda-fuelled experiments are not the stupidest denominator. The targets for these experiments are the people who emotionally expose themselves. It is far easier to sway a heart than to sway a mind. And while it takes longer for logic to sway a heart, it is a swift and effective process for emotions to sway a mind. The strength of propaganda is that it tugs at your heartstrings, it doesn't attempt to appeal to logic outright.

When we embrace mental laziness and accept the status quo or the party lines, logic becomes all but impossible on a collective scale when compared to the oh so easy way of letting someone else do the thinking for us, consuming the propaganda, and never questioning the campaigns designed to elevate the presence of emotionally-fuelled rhetoric.

Edit - this post is a train wreck, sorry guys. It's early and I didn't sleep well.

callen

BS44325 said:

What? Selective memory?

We didn't deploy troops. Remember. We didn't try to be the Fixer.

backseatLover12

From the OP:

To think “logically,” people must think calmly and clearly, rationally, so obviously to keep that from happening emotions must be created to keep rational thinking out of the picture. Fear, racism, anger, selfishness, hatred and war all drive out cool, collected thinking, so obviously fear, racism, anger, selfishness, hatred and war have to be promoted at all cost … cost is no problem when the future of the 0.01 percent’s fortunes and power are at stake.

Benjs:

Back to the 'stupid'/'uninformed' comment - I don't think the original quote assumes citizen stupidity. What it does is recognize the power of emotional response, which is irrefutably strong. Cults, religions, dictatorships, partnership (i.e. dating/marriage) - just a few forms of largely emotionally-fueled (and rarely logically-fueled) collective phenomena which absolute atrocities have been justified by. This does not mean that every member of the Nazi regime was stupid. Nor does it mean that the Crusades were inherently stupid people. Nor Jim Jones' group. And I'd like to think I'm not stupid - nor anyone else in a relationship.

Regarding emotional response, I think you're right. That the emotional response takes over any sense of cool headed, logical sense of response. What better way to objectively look at this than to look at these forums to see how the heat and passion of the emotional reaction overtakes any logic presented. Case in point: how hedonist took a post personally and it took a couple of folks to explain how it wasn't meant to be taken personally. It's that sense of emotional response that takes these forums from a decent debate to a trashed debate because many are emotionally responsive.

The same can be said for the state of our country: to invest in emotional response, keeps citizens occupied with that rather than logic and facts as to what our leaders are really up to: it keeps us asleep at the wheel and rather wound up in our emotions instead.

That's just an example and not meant to be taken personal, guys. My words are not combative, just words.

backseatLover12

BrianLux:

Well, yeah, I actually think that's about right... only I wouldn't use words like "stupid" or "rubes", but I would say too many of my fellow citizens are uninformed, uneducated, incurious, apathetic, disinterested, lazy or any combination of those traits. And I know some people who are very much like that whom I care very much for but I also know I wouldn't want them making major decisions regarding important matters... unless it's something like bringing the guacamole to the party.

After reanalyzing the quote from the OP, (I quoted above), I retract that I said it means Amercians are apathetic and uniformed, lazy and ignorant. I do think that the emotional charge that's pushed on us, a manipulation of sorts that political events invoke, that emotional reaction to events rather than keeping things real with logic and coolheadedness, is what causes fear, apathy, and the like. It's emotionally overwhelming, and then we break down because we're exhausted. That's probably how we become apathetic.

hedonist

brianlux said:

hedonist said:

brianlux said:

BS44325 said:

backseatLover12 said:

To think “logically,” people must think calmly and clearly, rationally, so obviously to keep that from happening emotions must be created to keep rational thinking out of the picture. Fear, racism, anger, selfishness, hatred and war all drive out cool, collected thinking, so obviously fear, racism, anger, selfishness, hatred and war have to be promoted at all cost … cost is no problem when the future of the 0.01 percent’s fortunes and power are at stake.

The problem with this quote is that it assumes your fellow citizens are stupid. That they cannot think for themselves. That you are enlightened yet they are rubes. You are rational while their minds arw under the control of the 0.01%. It's quite an elitist attitude.

Well, yeah, I actually think that's about right... only I wouldn't use words like "stupid" or "rubes", but I would say too many of my fellow citizens are uninformed, uneducated, incurious, apathetic, disinterested, lazy or any combination of those traits. And I know some people who are very much like that whom I care very much for but I also know I wouldn't want them making major decisions regarding important matters... unless it's something like bringing the guacamole to the party.

Ouch.

This is a shame to read and I think the clarifying of terms is a bit of semantics and word-play. If not for the source, I'd say more than insulting as well.

Good thing I make a badass guacamole!

What I said was not intended to be insulting at all. It's just an observation.

Look, I've worked with the public in a variety of bookstore settings. I've taught school- a 5/6 combo, middle and high school and a few years at a community college. When I was young, I worked in an auto parts store for five years. I've lived in four states. I've been around a lot of people and frankly, I honestly believe what I said about my fellow citizen. Do I like that so many people are unconcerned, apathetic, etc? Hell no. Do I think I'm better than they are? No. Better educated than the average citizen? Yes... but better? No. I've known many people who are less educated and less informed than I am but that certainly doesn't make me better or them worse. So, no, I don't think I was being insulting at all. But I still stand by what I said because I think it is true. I'm just saying honestly what I see. I'm sorry if what I said sounds offensive offends you, H. It was not meant to be.

All of us here are more informed than your average fellow citizen. What percentage of the general population has a clue as to what's going on in the world? Way too few, wouldn't you all agree?


Brian, that's why I took issue with what you said - I know it wasn't intended with malice or condescension; I know YOU are not malicious or condescending. The message got lost in the description, at least to me. Always appreciate your clarifying, even if we disagree.

To backseat, everything's fine, nothing is trashed. No drama.

And I've got a craving for guacamole!

rgambs

Let's not forget, there is a staggering proportion of the population which are, in fact, idiots. Unintelligent, apathetic, low class AND PROUD OF IT!
Hedo, you may not like it, biut it is plain truth, and anybody who has worked in customer service can verify that.

rgambs

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

brianlux said:

hedonist said:

brianlux said:

BS44325 said:

backseatLover12 said:

To think “logically,” people must think calmly and clearly, rationally, so obviously to keep that from happening emotions must be created to keep rational thinking out of the picture. Fear, racism, anger, selfishness, hatred and war all drive out cool, collected thinking, so obviously fear, racism, anger, selfishness, hatred and war have to be promoted at all cost … cost is no problem when the future of the 0.01 percent’s fortunes and power are at stake.

The problem with this quote is that it assumes your fellow citizens are stupid. That they cannot think for themselves. That you are enlightened yet they are rubes. You are rational while their minds arw under the control of the 0.01%. It's quite an elitist attitude.

Well, yeah, I actually think that's about right... only I wouldn't use words like "stupid" or "rubes", but I would say too many of my fellow citizens are uninformed, uneducated, incurious, apathetic, disinterested, lazy or any combination of those traits. And I know some people who are very much like that whom I care very much for but I also know I wouldn't want them making major decisions regarding important matters... unless it's something like bringing the guacamole to the party.

Ouch.

This is a shame to read and I think the clarifying of terms is a bit of semantics and word-play. If not for the source, I'd say more than insulting as well.

Good thing I make a badass guacamole!

What I said was not intended to be insulting at all. It's just an observation.

Look, I've worked with the public in a variety of bookstore settings. I've taught school- a 5/6 combo, middle and high school and a few years at a community college. When I was young, I worked in an auto parts store for five years. I've lived in four states. I've been around a lot of people and frankly, I honestly believe what I said about my fellow citizen. Do I like that so many people are unconcerned, apathetic, etc? Hell no. Do I think I'm better than they are? No. Better educated than the average citizen? Yes... but better? No. I've known many people who are less educated and less informed than I am but that certainly doesn't make me better or them worse. So, no, I don't think I was being insulting at all. But I still stand by what I said because I think it is true. I'm just saying honestly what I see. I'm sorry if what I said sounds offensive offends you, H. It was not meant to be.

All of us here are more informed than your average fellow citizen. What percentage of the general population has a clue as to what's going on in the world? Way too few, wouldn't you all agree?

Is this the post where you get mad and sign off for awhile?
Or is this the post where you pm and ask not to respond to each other?



A thoughtful, intelligent post which adds much to the discussion, without any personal animosity at all. Kudos sister PJFan!



You really don't understand trolling at all, but it's ok, you keep doing it, we will keep calling you out, and you can keep playing the victim of unfair accusations.

backseatLover12

I just think that this topic is a perfect example of how our emotions can get the best of us, things are taken personally when they shouldn't be, and the staying on track is often lost due to emotional charge. The sooner we stop taking things emotionally personal, the better these forums can be.
Again, this post is not meant toward anyone specific, and my words are just words.

hedonist

rgambs said:

Let's not forget, there is a staggering proportion of the population which are, in fact, idiots. Unintelligent, apathetic, low class AND PROUD OF IT!
Hedo, you may not like it, biut it is plain truth, and anybody who has worked in customer service can verify that.

Oh hell, I know that side of it! Aside from (or in addition to) my life experiences which exposed me to that, I worked retail for several years when I was coming up. I do believe though that there are just as many - perhaps more? - who are well-informed, aware, willing to learn, etc.

Maybe we hear more about those who aren't?

Gern Blansten

rgambs said:

Let's not forget, there is a staggering proportion of the population which are, in fact, idiots. Unintelligent, apathetic, low class AND PROUD OF IT!
Hedo, you may not like it, biut it is plain truth, and anybody who has worked in customer service can verify that.

In your opinion, who do those idiots vote for? Or do they not vote?

hedonist

backseatLover12 said:

I just think that this topic is a perfect example of how our emotions can get the best of us, things are taken personally when they shouldn't be, and the staying on track is often lost due to emotional charge. The sooner we stop taking things emotionally personal, the better these forums can be.
Again, this post is not meant toward anyone specific, and my words are just words.

Having emotions isn't a bad thing (and for whatever it's worth, one can feel and react, and not have it "get the best of us"). It's not necessarily tantamount to stomping feet and calling names. It can guide us, lend to insights.

I'd rather have that humanness enter into issues constructively. Seems like it did here.

backseatLover12

hedonist said:

backseatLover12 said:

I just think that this topic is a perfect example of how our emotions can get the best of us, things are taken personally when they shouldn't be, and the staying on track is often lost due to emotional charge. The sooner we stop taking things emotionally personal, the better these forums can be.
Again, this post is not meant toward anyone specific, and my words are just words.

Having emotions isn't a bad thing (and for whatever it's worth, one can feel and react, and not have it "get the best of us"). It's not necessarily tantamount to stomping feet and calling names. It can guide us, lend to insights.

I'd rather have that humanness enter into issues constructively. Seems like it did here.

Finally, yes it did.

benjs

backseatLover12 said:

hedonist said:

backseatLover12 said:

I just think that this topic is a perfect example of how our emotions can get the best of us, things are taken personally when they shouldn't be, and the staying on track is often lost due to emotional charge. The sooner we stop taking things emotionally personal, the better these forums can be.
Again, this post is not meant toward anyone specific, and my words are just words.

Having emotions isn't a bad thing (and for whatever it's worth, one can feel and react, and not have it "get the best of us"). It's not necessarily tantamount to stomping feet and calling names. It can guide us, lend to insights.

I'd rather have that humanness enter into issues constructively. Seems like it did here.

Finally, yes it did.

Not sure if you've read Ishmael, but that book always got me thinking. If we accept that we evolve in ways that lead to our continued existence in this universe (like animals with defences from predators, trees with roots to collect moisture, etc), then the evolution to feel so deeply as we do is a factor in our continued existence too (i.e. the fact that we are inherently empathetic is by design, not coincidence). Then, what does it say about us as a species if we opt to neglect a feature intrinsic to our design in favour of ones that aren't (like gluttony, greed, and apathy)?

rgambs

Gern Blansten said:

rgambs said:

Let's not forget, there is a staggering proportion of the population which are, in fact, idiots. Unintelligent, apathetic, low class AND PROUD OF IT!
Hedo, you may not like it, biut it is plain truth, and anybody who has worked in customer service can verify that.

In your opinion, who do those idiots vote for? Or do they not vote?

IMO about 70% of them vote Republican if they vote at all lol
There are plenty of dim Dems out there though, no doubt.

brianlux

Look like some good posts here. We are dealing with what appears to be an imminent death in the family today. Will have to read all the above later.