Meanwhile back in Israel

Halifax2TheMax

For those of you who seem to think that Israel occupies some sort of moral high ground. Add oil purchases from ISIS and I'll let you figure out what your $3.4 billion in tax dollars supports. If you live in the US, that is.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/25/world/middleeast/ali-dawabsheh-arson-death-israel-wedding-video.html?_r=0

Happy fucking New Year indeed.

josevolution

I'm never voting in a presidential race again as long as the candidates keep supporting Israel ...

HughFreakingDillon

Drowned Out said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Drowned Out said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Drowned Out said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfMM0AZ9eWA


I wish EV would take a stand on this topic instead of singing Imagine and wishing it all away....
There is zero doubt in my mind that his Milton Keynes rant was about Israel...the reaction of Israel's supporters and media confirmed as much. His backpedal afterward (saying he is anti-war and referencing other US conflicts) makes me wonder if the backlash had him concerned for his safety......or if there is dissent within the band on the topic....or if his bandmates just want him not to get involved. His seemingly burgeoning friendship with Roger Waters, the fact PJ hasn't played there and has not replied to the campaigns to play there make me think he has taken a side...why won't he speak up?

would you?

Easy to say as a nobody....but....without hesitation.

I meant in his shoes, not as a nobody.

I can only put myself in his shoes...I wouldn't hesitate. Not sure how else to answer the question.

Here's an interesting question:
If you feel there's injustice and you're an outspoken, politically involved person with a voice and a chance to influence people...why not name names?

because now he has his kids and his wife to think about. not just his angry indestructible 25 year old self. the guy has dealt with some pretty heavy personal shit with fans and whatnot in the past. I'd be hesitant to poke the bear now too.

Drowned Out

HughFreakingDillon said:

Drowned Out said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Drowned Out said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Drowned Out said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfMM0AZ9eWA


I wish EV would take a stand on this topic instead of singing Imagine and wishing it all away....
There is zero doubt in my mind that his Milton Keynes rant was about Israel...the reaction of Israel's supporters and media confirmed as much. His backpedal afterward (saying he is anti-war and referencing other US conflicts) makes me wonder if the backlash had him concerned for his safety......or if there is dissent within the band on the topic....or if his bandmates just want him not to get involved. His seemingly burgeoning friendship with Roger Waters, the fact PJ hasn't played there and has not replied to the campaigns to play there make me think he has taken a side...why won't he speak up?

would you?

Easy to say as a nobody....but....without hesitation.

I meant in his shoes, not as a nobody.

I can only put myself in his shoes...I wouldn't hesitate. Not sure how else to answer the question.

Here's an interesting question:
If you feel there's injustice and you're an outspoken, politically involved person with a voice and a chance to influence people...why not name names?

because now he has his kids and his wife to think about. not just his angry indestructible 25 year old self. the guy has dealt with some pretty heavy personal shit with fans and whatnot in the past. I'd be hesitant to poke the bear now too.

I understand that.
But does it not tell us something when people half way across the world are being silenced out of fear for their safety, and even the safety of their family, if they speak out against Israel?
Sounds like letting the terrorists win....

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Halifax2TheMax said:

For those of you who seem to think that Israel occupies some sort of moral high ground. Add oil purchases from ISIS and I'll let you figure out what your $3.4 billion in tax dollars supports. If you live in the US, that is.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/25/world/middleeast/ali-dawabsheh-arson-death-israel-wedding-video.html?_r=0

Happy fucking New Year indeed.

Bunch of freakin' idiots.

They couldn't have looked any stupider had they been jerkin off as well.

If there was a god... the one tool would have dropped his Molotov cocktail and lit his dress on fire.

(Sorry... not adding anything to the conversation... but without that thread created where we can throw things around- like someone suggested a day or so ago- I needed to throw things around here).

HughFreakingDillon

Drowned Out said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Drowned Out said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Drowned Out said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Drowned Out said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfMM0AZ9eWA


I wish EV would take a stand on this topic instead of singing Imagine and wishing it all away....
There is zero doubt in my mind that his Milton Keynes rant was about Israel...the reaction of Israel's supporters and media confirmed as much. His backpedal afterward (saying he is anti-war and referencing other US conflicts) makes me wonder if the backlash had him concerned for his safety......or if there is dissent within the band on the topic....or if his bandmates just want him not to get involved. His seemingly burgeoning friendship with Roger Waters, the fact PJ hasn't played there and has not replied to the campaigns to play there make me think he has taken a side...why won't he speak up?

would you?

Easy to say as a nobody....but....without hesitation.

I meant in his shoes, not as a nobody.

I can only put myself in his shoes...I wouldn't hesitate. Not sure how else to answer the question.

Here's an interesting question:
If you feel there's injustice and you're an outspoken, politically involved person with a voice and a chance to influence people...why not name names?

because now he has his kids and his wife to think about. not just his angry indestructible 25 year old self. the guy has dealt with some pretty heavy personal shit with fans and whatnot in the past. I'd be hesitant to poke the bear now too.

I understand that.
But does it not tell us something when people half way across the world are being silenced out of fear for their safety, and even the safety of their family, if they speak out against Israel?
Sounds like letting the terrorists win....

it's not halfway around the world. 5.4 million jewish folk in the US. not suggesting any of them are terrorists, but one guy I used to follow in twitter (brother of a famous canadian musician) got pretty heated a lot of the time on the issue, I would even call it inciting hatred, against muslims.

that's our own backyard. and how many of Ed's friends are probably jewish? not every debate is something worth wading into.

jeffbr

Drowned Out said:

Sounds like letting the terrorists win....

The terrorists won a long time ago. Patriot Act, TSA, ect... We live in fear and that is demonstrated every time we go to a sporting event or fly on a plane and submit to all of the bullshit being done in the name of safety. That's the reality we live in. Fear, fear and more fear.

Drowned Out

HughFreakingDillon said:

Drowned Out said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Drowned Out said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Drowned Out said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Drowned Out said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfMM0AZ9eWA


I wish EV would take a stand on this topic instead of singing Imagine and wishing it all away....
There is zero doubt in my mind that his Milton Keynes rant was about Israel...the reaction of Israel's supporters and media confirmed as much. His backpedal afterward (saying he is anti-war and referencing other US conflicts) makes me wonder if the backlash had him concerned for his safety......or if there is dissent within the band on the topic....or if his bandmates just want him not to get involved. His seemingly burgeoning friendship with Roger Waters, the fact PJ hasn't played there and has not replied to the campaigns to play there make me think he has taken a side...why won't he speak up?

would you?

Easy to say as a nobody....but....without hesitation.

I meant in his shoes, not as a nobody.

I can only put myself in his shoes...I wouldn't hesitate. Not sure how else to answer the question.

Here's an interesting question:
If you feel there's injustice and you're an outspoken, politically involved person with a voice and a chance to influence people...why not name names?

because now he has his kids and his wife to think about. not just his angry indestructible 25 year old self. the guy has dealt with some pretty heavy personal shit with fans and whatnot in the past. I'd be hesitant to poke the bear now too.

I understand that.
But does it not tell us something when people half way across the world are being silenced out of fear for their safety, and even the safety of their family, if they speak out against Israel?
Sounds like letting the terrorists win....

it's not halfway around the world. 5.4 million jewish folk in the US. not suggesting any of them are terrorists, but one guy I used to follow in twitter (brother of a famous canadian musician) got pretty heated a lot of the time on the issue, I would even call it inciting hatred, against muslims.

that's our own backyard. and how many of Ed's friends are probably jewish? not every debate is something worth wading into.

That kind of assumes that all jews support Israel, or that criticizing israel is criticizing jews....

It's basically a forced requirement (in defense against the inevitable accusations) of the dialogue for people who support a free Palestine to ensure people know you are not an anti-semite because you criticize Israeli policy. Personally, I don't think friends who can't see the difference, and will hold your beliefs against you due to their own ignorance, are worth worrying about. I know I don't worry about it....I have plenty of fb friends who spew that kind of anti-muslim shit (many of them sourcing material from Israeli sites without even realizing they've aligned themselves with another extremist interpretation of religion). Some of them take issue with my politics...I take issue with theirs. It doesn't stop me from speaking out. Maybe EV would rather have us read between the lines. I think it's unfortunate, but I guess that's his prerogative.

Drowned Out

jeffbr said:

Drowned Out said:

Sounds like letting the terrorists win....

The terrorists won a long time ago. Patriot Act, TSA, ect... We live in fear and that is demonstrated every time we go to a sporting event or fly on a plane and submit to all of the bullshit being done in the name of safety. That's the reality we live in. Fear, fear and more fear.

Very true. And that has been allowed to happen by people who are not educating themselves on the issues and root causes, and allowing reactionary politics to control policy and government...when in fact it's not reactionary: it's at best opportunistic, and at worst, part of the plan.
Which makes it all the more disappointing when the people who do take the time to educate themselves allow themselves to be silenced out of personal interest and the fear you mentioned.

jeffbr

Drowned Out said:

jeffbr said:

Drowned Out said:

Sounds like letting the terrorists win....

The terrorists won a long time ago. Patriot Act, TSA, ect... We live in fear and that is demonstrated every time we go to a sporting event or fly on a plane and submit to all of the bullshit being done in the name of safety. That's the reality we live in. Fear, fear and more fear.

Very true. And that has been allowed to happen by people who are not educating themselves on the issues and root causes, and allowing reactionary politics to control policy and government...when in fact it's not reactionary: it's at best opportunistic, and at worst, part of the plan.
Which makes it all the more disappointing when the people who do take the time to educate themselves allow themselves to be silenced out of personal interest and the fear you mentioned.

Agreed! I see it daily in both small and large ways, from the way individuals conduct themselves, to the way our nations act toward our own citizens. Since I won't vote for anyone who voted for the Patriot Act, or the Freedom Act, or whatever other Orwellian name the assholes in DC come up with, my choices are limited, and my hope for moving past our perpetual state of fear diminishes.

HughFreakingDillon

Drowned Out said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Drowned Out said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Drowned Out said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Drowned Out said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Drowned Out said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfMM0AZ9eWA


I wish EV would take a stand on this topic instead of singing Imagine and wishing it all away....
There is zero doubt in my mind that his Milton Keynes rant was about Israel...the reaction of Israel's supporters and media confirmed as much. His backpedal afterward (saying he is anti-war and referencing other US conflicts) makes me wonder if the backlash had him concerned for his safety......or if there is dissent within the band on the topic....or if his bandmates just want him not to get involved. His seemingly burgeoning friendship with Roger Waters, the fact PJ hasn't played there and has not replied to the campaigns to play there make me think he has taken a side...why won't he speak up?

would you?

Easy to say as a nobody....but....without hesitation.

I meant in his shoes, not as a nobody.

I can only put myself in his shoes...I wouldn't hesitate. Not sure how else to answer the question.

Here's an interesting question:
If you feel there's injustice and you're an outspoken, politically involved person with a voice and a chance to influence people...why not name names?

because now he has his kids and his wife to think about. not just his angry indestructible 25 year old self. the guy has dealt with some pretty heavy personal shit with fans and whatnot in the past. I'd be hesitant to poke the bear now too.

I understand that.
But does it not tell us something when people half way across the world are being silenced out of fear for their safety, and even the safety of their family, if they speak out against Israel?
Sounds like letting the terrorists win....

it's not halfway around the world. 5.4 million jewish folk in the US. not suggesting any of them are terrorists, but one guy I used to follow in twitter (brother of a famous canadian musician) got pretty heated a lot of the time on the issue, I would even call it inciting hatred, against muslims.

that's our own backyard. and how many of Ed's friends are probably jewish? not every debate is something worth wading into.

That kind of assumes that all jews support Israel, or that criticizing israel is criticizing jews....

no, I was only making the comment that criticizing Israel is not criticizing JUST people halfway around the world. Many, many who support Israel and the occupation, live here. and many that support it would consider critizing Israel and themselves to be one and the same.

I'm just saying it's so touchy that I might want to, if in Ed's shoes, tread very carefully.

PJ_Soul

Tread carefully? Eddie isn't an antisemite. He has nothing to tread carefully about unless his goal is to kowtow to idiots.

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

Tread carefully? Eddie isn't an antisemite. He has nothing to tread carefully about unless his goal is to kowtow to idiots.

um, no one said he was. I just said that wading into this debate isn't something to do lightly, especially as a celebrity. that is all.

Drowned Out

PJ_Soul said:

Tread carefully? Eddie isn't an antisemite. He has nothing to tread carefully about unless his goal is to kowtow to idiots.

and that's the thing, right? We have people saying that criticizing Israel is anti-Semitic, while others remind us that it's anti-Semitic to lump the Jewish people in with the 'Jewish state'. You can't win. Does that mean we should just shut up? The anti Semite card should not give Israel carte Blanche in their foreign policy.
So ya...tread carefully if your goal is not to offend anyone.

'If I offended you? I'm sorry but maybe you need to be offended. Here's my apology, and one more thing....fuck you!'
Hehe. ST

Drowned Out

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

Tread carefully? Eddie isn't an antisemite. He has nothing to tread carefully about unless his goal is to kowtow to idiots.

um, no one said he was. I just said that wading into this debate isn't something to do lightly, especially as a celebrity. that is all.

I hear what you're saying Hugh. It's disappointing that he backed down...that's my point.

PJ_Soul

Drowned Out said:

PJ_Soul said:

Tread carefully? Eddie isn't an antisemite. He has nothing to tread carefully about unless his goal is to kowtow to idiots.

and that's the thing, right? We have people saying that criticizing Israel is anti-Semitic, while others remind us that it's anti-Semitic to lump the Jewish people in with the 'Jewish state'. You can't win. Does that mean we should just shut up? The anti Semite card should not give Israel carte Blanche in their foreign policy.
So ya...tread carefully if your goal is not to offend anyone.

'If I offended you? I'm sorry but maybe you need to be offended. Here's my apology, and one more thing....fuck you!'
Hehe. ST

Ha, yeah, well my point was really 'who gives a fuck if it offends someone?? Eddie and whoever, go nuts, don't tread lightly just to avoid offending morons!'
(I know you weren't accusing EV of being an antisemite HFD)

PJ_Soul

Drowned Out said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

Tread carefully? Eddie isn't an antisemite. He has nothing to tread carefully about unless his goal is to kowtow to idiots.

um, no one said he was. I just said that wading into this debate isn't something to do lightly, especially as a celebrity. that is all.

I hear what you're saying Hugh. It's disappointing that he backed down...that's my point.

I haven't read everything so might be missing something... did EV back down? Or do you just mean that it's disappointing that he didn't continue pushing the issue? If the latter I would agree. I have always found EV to be a bit perplexing in this way. He has strong opinions and unique ideas and a desire to get creative (musically, too), he seems to understand the special opportunity he has as a person with a stage and a voice and principles he thinks are worth pushing, and he seems to acknowledge the importance of calling it as he sees it and exposing the issue, whatever that may be). Yet he also seems hyper-concerned about how people react to what he says. You can't have it both ways though, and i think his concern about offending people (or even just about people not liking what he's doing when it comes to musical experimentation) makes him weaker and ultimately ineffectual.

benjs

Drowned Out said:

PJ_Soul said:

Tread carefully? Eddie isn't an antisemite. He has nothing to tread carefully about unless his goal is to kowtow to idiots.

and that's the thing, right? We have people saying that criticizing Israel is anti-Semitic, while others remind us that it's anti-Semitic to lump the Jewish people in with the 'Jewish state'. You can't win. Does that mean we should just shut up? The anti Semite card should not give Israel carte Blanche in their foreign policy.
So ya...tread carefully if your goal is not to offend anyone.

'If I offended you? I'm sorry but maybe you need to be offended. Here's my apology, and one more thing....fuck you!'
Hehe. ST

When it comes to Israel, no matter your opinion, some will support you, others will contort your words, and inevitably, you will either start a supportive mob, or an angry outraged riot: there are no quiet people in this discussion, and words are conflated or deflated either strategically or impulsively. The biggest problem as I see it is that when it comes to Israeli politics, most have made up their minds to the point where they have lost their definition of what being open-minded truly is.

I'm praying to the universe for something closer to justice in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank this year. It starts with being a lot quieter, and listening a lot more critically. It also means a serious attempt to induce 'label-blindness': imagine what would happen if Israeli or Palestinian news articles referred to what people are doing to people, rather than Palestinians to Jews or Jews to Palestinians? I think you'd see a lot more empathy and understanding come out of a simple experiment. For that matter, stripping the news anywhere of mentions of wrongs from one demographic to another would be a valuable way to minimize confirmation bias.

callen

Drowned Out said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

Tread carefully? Eddie isn't an antisemite. He has nothing to tread carefully about unless his goal is to kowtow to idiots.

um, no one said he was. I just said that wading into this debate isn't something to do lightly, especially as a celebrity. that is all.

I hear what you're saying Hugh. It's disappointing that he backed down...that's my point.

He's an entertainer. Makes great music. Nothing more. If he wants to take a stand on injustices, fine. If not well I'm good as well. Love to get some new music or some concerts but sure as hell don't want to give Ed Powers and responsibilities.

rafie

benjs said:

Drowned Out said:

PJ_Soul said:

Tread carefully? Eddie isn't an antisemite. He has nothing to tread carefully about unless his goal is to kowtow to idiots.

and that's the thing, right? We have people saying that criticizing Israel is anti-Semitic, while others remind us that it's anti-Semitic to lump the Jewish people in with the 'Jewish state'. You can't win. Does that mean we should just shut up? The anti Semite card should not give Israel carte Blanche in their foreign policy.
So ya...tread carefully if your goal is not to offend anyone.

'If I offended you? I'm sorry but maybe you need to be offended. Here's my apology, and one more thing....fuck you!'
Hehe. ST

When it comes to Israel, no matter your opinion, some will support you, others will contort your words, and inevitably, you will either start a supportive mob, or an angry outraged riot: there are no quiet people in this discussion, and words are conflated or deflated either strategically or impulsively. The biggest problem as I see it is that when it comes to Israeli politics, most have made up their minds to the point where they have lost their definition of what being open-minded truly is.

I'm praying to the universe for something closer to justice in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank this year. It starts with being a lot quieter, and listening a lot more critically. It also means a serious attempt to induce 'label-blindness': imagine what would happen if Israeli or Palestinian news articles referred to what people are doing to people, rather than Palestinians to Jews or Jews to Palestinians? I think you'd see a lot more empathy and understanding come out of a simple experiment. For that matter, stripping the news anywhere of mentions of wrongs from one demographic to another would be a valuable way to minimize confirmation bias.

Smartest (not to mention most humane) thing said in this entire thread!
Where is the clapping emoji when you need it?