Meanwhile back in Israel

mickeyrat · December 2023

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-12-2-2023-f300e8dac70d5309bf5f5a75bace7689 Israeli offensive shifts to crowded southern Gaza, driving up death toll despite evacuation orders

Israeli offensive shifts to crowded southern Gaza, driving up death toll despite evacuation orders

By NAJIB JOBAIN, BASSEM MROUE and CARA ANNA

2 hours ago

KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip (AP) — Israel pounded targets in the crowded southern half of the Gaza Strip on Saturday and ordered more neighborhoods designated for attack to evacuate, driving up the death toll even as the United States and others urged it to do more to protect Gaza civilians a day after a truce collapsed.

At least 200 Palestinians have been killed since the fighting resumed Friday morning following the weeklong truce with the territory’s ruling militant group Hamas, according to the Health Ministry in Gaza. Several homes were hit across Gaza on Saturday, with multiple casualties reported in a strike that flattened a multi-story building on the outskirts of Gaza City.

Separately, the ministry announced that the overall death toll in Gaza since the Oct. 7 start of the Israel-Hamas war surpassed 15,200, a sharp jump from the previous count of more than 13,300 on Nov. 20. The ministry does not differentiate between civilians and combatants, but it said 70% of the dead were women and children. It also said more than 40,000 people had been wounded since the war began.

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The appeal from the United States, Israel's closest ally, to do more to protect civilians came after an air and ground offensive in the first weeks of the war devastated large areas of northern Gaza. Some 2 million Palestinians, almost the entire population of Gaza, are now crammed into the territory's southern half.

Israel’s military said Saturday that it had hit more than 400 Hamas targets across Gaza over the past day, using airstrikes and shelling from tanks and navy gunships. It included more than 50 strikes in the city of Khan Younis and surrounding areas in southern Gaza.

At least nine people, including three children, were killed in a strike on a house in Deir al-Balah city in the south, according to the hospital where the bodies were taken. The hospital also received seven bodies of others killed in overnight airstrikes, including two children.

In northern Gaza, an airstrike flattened a residential building hosting displaced families in the urban refugee camp of Jabaliya on the outskirts of Gaza City. The strike left dozens dead or wounded, said residents Hamza Obeid and Amal Radwan.

“There was a loud bang, then the building turned into a pile of rubble,” Obeid said. AP video showed smoke rising from a fire as men, some in sandals, picked their way over the debris. Lt. Col. Peter Lerner, an Israeli army spokesperson, confirmed that the Israeli military was operating in Jabaliya.

Meanwhile, Palestinian militant groups in Gaza said they fired a barrage of rockets on southern Israel. There were no immediate reports of damage or injuries. Lerner said Hamas had launched more than 250 rockets at Israel since the cease-fire ended.

In the clearest sign yet that a return to negotiations for further truces was unlikely, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu directed negotiators to return to Israel.

With the resumption of fighting, the Israeli military published an online map carving up the Gaza Strip into hundreds of numbered parcels and asked residents to familiarize themselves with the number of their location ahead of evacuation warnings.

On Saturday, the military listed more than two dozen parcel numbers in areas around Gaza City in the north and east of Khan Younis. Separately, it dropped leaflets with evacuation orders over towns east of Khan Younis.

One Khan Younis resident said a neighbor received a call from the Israeli army warning that houses in the area would be hit and everyone should leave. “We told them, ‘We have nothing here, why do you want to strike it?’" said the resident, Hikmat al-Qidra. Al-Qidra said the house was destroyed.

The maps and leaflets generated panic and confusion, especially in the crowded south. Unable to go to northern Gaza or neighboring Egypt, their only escape is to move around within the 220-square-kilometer (85-square-mile) area.

“There is no place to go,” said Emad Hajar, who fled with his wife and three children from the north a month ago to Khan Younis. “They expelled us from the north, and now they are pushing us to leave the south."

Amal Radwan, who sheltered in the Jabaliya refugee camp, said she wasn't aware of such a map, adding that she and many others were not able to leave because of the relentless bombardment.

Mark Regev, a senior advisor to Netanyahu, said Israel was making “maximum effort to safeguard Gazan civilians" and the military has used leafleting, phone calls, and radio and TV broadcasts to urge Gazans to move from specific areas. “We’ve not asked the whole population of the south to relocate,” he said.

Regev added that Israel is considering a future security buffer zone that would not allow Gazans direct access to the border fence on foot, adding that Israel does not plan to annex any territory from Gaza.

Israel says it is targeting Hamas operatives and blames civilian casualties on the militants, accusing them of operating in residential neighborhoods. It claims to have killed thousands of militants, without providing evidence. Israel says 77 of its soldiers have been killed in the ground offensive in northern Gaza.

Also Saturday, the Palestinian Red Crescent said it had received the first convoy of aid trucks through the Rafah crossing since fighting resumed. Wael Abu Omar, a spokesman for the Palestinian Crossings Authority, said a convoy of 100 trucks entered Gaza, including three carrying 150,000 liters (nearly 40,000 gallons) of fuel.

“Current conditions do not allow for a meaningful humanitarian response, and I fear will spell disaster for the civilian population,” Pascal Hundt, in charge of operations in Gaza for the International Committee of the Red Cross, said.

Meanwhile, U.S. Vice President Kamala Harris, in Dubai on Saturday for the COP28 climate conference, said in a meeting with Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al-Sisi that “under no circumstances” would the United States permit the forced relocation of Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank, the besiegement of Gaza or redrawing of its borders, according to a U.S. summary.

Harris was expected to outline proposals with regional leaders to “put Palestinian voices at the center” of planning the next steps for Gaza after the conflict, according to the White House. President Joe Biden’s administration has emphasized the need for an eventual two-state solution, with Israel and a Palestinian state coexisting.

The Oct. 7 attack by Hamas and other militants killed about 1,200 people, mostly civilians, in southern Israel, and around 240 people were taken captive.

The renewed hostilities have heightened concerns for 136 hostages who, according to the Israeli military, are still held by Hamas and other militants after 105 were freed during the truce. A 70-year-old woman held by Hamas was declared dead on Saturday, according to her kibbutz, bringing the total number of known dead hostages to eight.

During the truce, Israel freed 240 Palestinians from its prisons. Most of those released by both sides were women and children.

The truce's end also saw new activity along Israel's northern border. Lebanon’s militant Hezbollah group said its fighters attacked at least five Israeli posts along the border, and Israeli forces struck several areas on the Lebanese side. There were no reports of casualties.

___

Mroue reported from Beirut and Anna reported from New York. Associated Press writer Julia Frankel in Jerusalem contributed to this report.

___

Full AP coverage at https://apnews.com/hub/israel-hamas-war

mickeyrat · December 2023

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/12/oslo-israel-reneged-colonial-palestine

Opinion

This article is more than 10 years old

It's now clear: the Oslo peace accords were wrecked by Netanyahu's bad faith

This article is more than 10 years old

Avi Shlaim

I thought the peace accords 20 years ago could work, but Israel used them as cover for its colonial project in Palestine

Thu 12 Sep 2013 17.11 EDT

410

Exactly 20 years have passed since the Oslo accords were signed on the White House lawn. For all their shortcomings and ambiguities, the accords constituted a historic breakthrough in the century-old conflict between Jews and Arabs in Palestine. It was the first peace agreement between the two principal parties to the conflict: Israelis and Palestinians.

The accords represented real progress on three fronts: the Palestine Liberation Organisation recognised the state of Israel; Israel recognised the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people; and both sides agreed to resolve their outstanding differences by peaceful means. Mutual recognition replaced mutual rejection. In short, this promised at least the beginning of a reconciliation between two bitterly antagonistic national movements. And the hesitant handshake between Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat clinched the historic compromise.

Critical to the architecture of Oslo was the notion of gradualism. The text did not address any of the key issues in this dispute: Jerusalem; the right of return of 1948 refugees; the status of Jewish settlements built on occupied Palestinian land; or the borders of the Palestinian entity. All these "permanent status" issues were deferred for negotiations towards the end of the five-year transition period. Basically, this was a modest experiment in Palestinian self-government, starting with the Gaza Strip and the West Bank town of Jericho.

The text did not promise or even mention an independent Palestinian state at the end of the transition period. The Palestinians believed that in return for giving up their claim to 78% of historic Palestine, they would gain an independent state in the remaining 22%, with a capital city in Jerusalem. They were to be bitterly disappointed.

Controversy surrounded Oslo from the moment it saw the light of day. The 21 October 1993 issue of the London Review of Books ran two articles; Edward Said put the case against in the first. He called the agreement "an instrument of Palestinian surrender, a Palestinian Versailles", arguing that it set aside international legality and compromised the fundamental national rights of the Palestinian people. It could not advance genuine Palestinian self-determination because that meant freedom, sovereignty, and equality, rather than perpetual subservience to Israel.

In my own article I put the case for Oslo. I believed that it would set in motion a gradual but irreversible process of Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories and that it would pave the way to Palestinian statehood. From today's perspective, 20 years on, it is clear that Said was right in his analysis and I was wrong.

In 2000 the Oslo peace process broke down following the failure of the Camp David summit and the outbreak of the second intifada. Why? Israelis claim that the Palestinians made a strategic choice to return to violence and consequently there was no Palestinian partner for peace. As I see it, Palestinian violence was a contributory factor, but not the main cause. The fundamental reason was that Israel reneged on its side of the deal.

Sadly, the Jewish fanatic who assassinated Rabin in 1995 achieved his broader aim of derailing the peace train. In 1996 the rightwing Likud returned to power under the leadership of Binyamin Netanyahu. He made no effort to conceal his deep antagonism to Oslo, denouncing it as incompatible with Israel's right to security and with the historic right of the Jewish people to the whole land of Israel. And he spent his first three years as PM in a largely successful attempt to arrest, undermine, and subvert the accords concluded by his Labour predecessors.

Particularly destructive of the peace project was the policy of expanding Israeli settlements on occupied Palestinian territory. These settlements are illegal under international law and constitute a huge obstacle to peace. Building civilian settlements beyond the Green Line does not violate the letter of the Oslo accords but it most decidedly violates its spirit. As a result of settlement expansion the area available for a Palestinian state has been steadily shrinking to the point where a two-state solution is barely conceivable.

The so-called security barrier that Israel has been building on the West Bank since 2002 further encroaches on Palestinian land. Land-grabbing and peace-making do not go together: it is one or the other. Oslo is essentially a land-for-peace deal. By expanding settlements all Israeli governments, Labour as well as Likud, contributed massively to its breakdown.

The rate of settlement growth in the West Bank and Israeli-annexed East Jerusalem is staggering. At the end of 1993 there were 115,700 Israeli settlers in the occupied territories. Their number doubled during the following decade.

Today the number of Israeli settlers on the West Bank exceeds 350,000. There are an additional 300,000 Jews living in settlements across the pre-1967 border in East Jerusalem. Thousands more settlement homes are planned or under construction. Despite his best efforts, John Kerry, the US secretary of state, failed to get the Netanyahu government to accept a settlement freeze as a precondition for renewing the peace talks suspended in 2010. As long as Netanyahu remains in power, it is a safe bet that no breakthrough will be achieved in the new round of talks. He is the procrastinator par excellence, the double-faced prime minister who pretends to negotiate the partition of the pizza while continuing to gobble it up.

The Oslo accords had many faults, chief of which was the failure to proscribe settlement expansion while peace talks were in progress. But the agreement was not doomed to failure from the start, as its critics allege. Oslo faltered and eventually broke down because Likud-led governments negotiated in bad faith. This turned the much-vaunted peace process into a charade. In fact, it was worse than a charade: it provided Israel with just the cover it was looking for to continue to pursue with impunity its illegal and aggressive colonial project on the West Bank.

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mickeyrat · December 2023

https://theconversation.com/30-years-after-arafat-rabin-handshake-clear-flaws-in-oslo-accords-doomed-peace-talks-to-failure-211362

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A man in traditional Palestinian headscarf shakes hand with a suited man in glasses while a tall man with gray hair stands between

A historic handshake. MPI/Getty Images

30 years after Arafat-Rabin handshake, clear flaws in Oslo Accords doomed peace talks to failure

Published: September 12, 2023 8:26am EDT

Maha Nassar, University of Arizona

On Sept. 13, 1993, the world watched as Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and Palestine Liberation Organization Chairman Yasser Arafat shook hands on the White House lawn. It was a stunning moment. The famous handshake between adversaries marked the beginning of what became known as the Oslo Accords, a framework for talks between Israeli and Palestinian representatives, mediated by U.S. diplomats.

The idea was that through open-ended negotiations and confidence-building measures, Palestinians would eventually take control over their own affairs in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem – territories that Israel had illegally occupied following the 1967 Six-Day War.

After an interim period of five years, the thinking went, a Palestinian state would exist side by side with Israel. And through such a two-state solution, peace between Israel and the Palestinians could be achieved.

Thirty years later, it is clear the Oslo Accords have achieved neither peace nor a two-state solution. So far in 2023 alone, over 200 Palestinians and nearly 30 Israelis have been killed. Israel has the most right-wing, nationalist government in its history, and the Palestinian leadership is weak and divided. There is little prospect for a return to negotiations anytime soon.

Analysis of the world, from experts

How did this grim reality emerge from such high hopes in 1993? Many analysts point to violations of the terms of the accords committed by both sides. Others blame a lack of accountability, which allowed those violations to go unchecked.

Certainly, there is plenty of blame to go around. But as a scholar of Palestinian history, it is clear to me that the Oslo peace process failed because the framework itself was deeply flawed in three key ways.

First, it ignored the power imbalance between the two sides. Second, it focused on ending violence by Palestinian militant groups while overlooking acts of violence committed by the Israeli state. And third, it sought peace as the end goal, rather than justice.

Let’s break each one of these down.

Ignoring the power imbalance

The Palestinian Liberation Organization, or PLO, had implicitly recognized Israel in 1988. But a more formal statement was needed for Israel to agree to talks. In an exchange of letters on Sept. 9, 1993, Arafat wrote to Rabin, “The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.”

In formally recognizing Israel’s right to exist, the PLO essentially gave up sole sovereign claims to 78% of the Palestinians’ historic homeland that was now claimed by Israel.

In response, Rabin wrote to Arafat that Israel would “recognize the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people.” He did not recognize the Palestinians’ right to form their own state.

In a “Declaration of Principles,” signed by Arafat and Rabin at the White House on Sept. 13, it was stated that the aim of the talks was “the implementation of Security Council resolutions 242 (from 1967) and 338 (from 1973).” Those U.N. resolutions call on Israel to withdraw from territories it occupied in 1967. But they do not explicitly call for the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Since then, Israel has expropriated nearly half of the West Bank for the exclusive use of Jewish settlers, in violation of international law. It also routinely siphons off water from Palestinian underground aquifers for the use of the settlers, while depriving Palestinians access to their own water.

As a result of these and other measures, life for Palestinians became worse during the post-Oslo years, not better. As Palestinians lost further control over their lands, homes and resources, their ability to establish a state grew more distant.

Yet, by insisting that bilateral negotiations take place between a powerful state and a stateless people – rather than under the auspices of the United Nations or other international body – the Oslo framework ignored the power imbalance between Israel and the Palestinians. U.S. mediators would insist that both sides needed to compromise. But Israel held far more military, economic and diplomatic power than the Palestinians.

By ignoring this power imbalance, the Oslo Accords effectively allowed Israel to continue to confiscate land and resources with no consequences. With 60% of the West Bank under Israeli control, the prospects for a viable, independent Palestinian state were undermined.

No end to state violence

A 1994 follow-up agreement stated, “Both sides shall take all measures necessary in order to prevent acts of terrorism, crime and hostilities directed against each other.” It added that “the Palestinian side shall take all measures necessary to prevent such hostile acts directed against the Settlements, the infrastructure serving them and the Military Installation Area.”

Successive Israeli governments have interpreted “hostile acts” broadly. As a result, even Palestinians who have defended their lands through nonviolent means have been arrested, imprisoned and shot at by Israeli soldiers.

The agreement also stated that “the Israeli side shall take all measures necessary to prevent such hostile acts emanating from the Settlements and directed against Palestinians.” But it does not mention Israeli military violence against Palestinian civilians.

To enforce this agreement, the Palestinian Authority – an autonomous body that rules over Palestinians in the West Bank – agreed to coordinate with the Israeli military over security matters. It would either arrest Palestinians whom Israel suspects of carrying out hostilities or allow Israel to enter Palestinian areas and arrest suspects themselves.

This coordination protects Israelis from Palestinian violence, but it does not protect Palestinians from violence by the Israeli military. Since fall 2000, the Israel military has killed eight times as many Palestinians as compared with Israelis killed by Palestinians. Half of those Palestinian victims were not involved in hostilities when they were killed, according to analysis from the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem.

Palestinians are also subjected to other kinds of human rights abuses from the Israeli state. These include home demolitions, imprisonment without charge or trial and abuse at checkpoints. Most soldiers accused of harming Palestinians do not face consequences for their actions, according to Yesh Din, an Israeli human rights organization.

Peace over justice

This kind of structural violence and abuse – perpetrated by the state against marginalized groups – rarely makes headlines in Western media. Such a lack of awareness reinforces Israel’s ability to control Palestinians’ lives and further undermines the prospects for peace.

Yet this exclusive focus on achieving peace has, I believe, also been part of the problem. American and Israeli diplomats narrowly defined peace as the absence of armed violence and set that as the overarching goal. They believed that if Palestinians refrained from committing acts of violence, then peace through a two-state solution could be achieved. Coverage that mirrored this perspective in the mainstream U.S. media further entrenched this view.

A mural of eyes painted on a crumbling wall

Graffiti on a wall of the destroyed ‘Yasser Arafat International Airport’ in the Gaza Strip. Said Khatib/AFP via Getty Images

But this understanding of peace has ignored the Palestinians’ need for justice. At a minimum, justice to many Palestinians would have meant an end to security cooperation between the Palestinian Authority and Israel and the establishment of an independent, democratic Palestinian state on the remaining 22% of their homeland.

But with the power imbalances enshrined in the Oslo framework, and with U.S. mediators focusing more on peace – measured by incidents of Palestinian violence over those perpetrated by the Israeli state – this was not to be.

Oslo as ‘surrender’

One month after the famous handshake, the Palestinian scholar Edward Said described the Oslo Accords as “an instrument of Palestinian surrender.” Recently, a group of leading political scientists called on U.S. policymakers to abandon the Oslo framework and the two-state solution altogether. They call on the U.S. to “advocate for equality, citizenship, and human rights for all Jews and Palestinians living within the single state dominated by Israel.”

It is, I believe, an urgent call. Life for Palestinians is getting worse, not better. A growing number of international human rights organizations and public figures describe the current reality on the ground in Israel-Palestine as a form of apartheid.

Thirty years after their famous handshake, Arafat and Rabin have long since passed. It’s time to admit that the process they kick-started is also now confined to history.

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mickeyrat · December 2023

https://imeu.org/article/netanyahu-putting-an-end-to-the-oslo-accords-the-two-state-solution

Resources Fact Sheets

Benjamin Netanyahu: Putting “an End to the Oslo Accords” & the Two-State Solution

October 01, 2015 IMEU

Screenshot of 2001 video of Netanyahu bragging about sabotaging the Oslo Accords.

For more than two decades, Benjamin Netanyahu has played a central role in the failure of the US-sponsored Oslo negotiations process and the two-state solution that it’s predicated on. As he boasted to a group of Israeli settlers in a candid moment caught on video in 2001 following his first term as prime minister (1996-1999): "I de facto put an end to the Oslo Accords.”
Throughout his political career, Netanyahu has opposed the establishment of an independent Palestinian state, pronouncements to the contrary made for international consumption following his return to power in 2009 notwithstanding. He is also a longtime supporter of Israel’s illegal settlement enterprise, which is a major obstacle to the creation of a Palestinian state in the occupied territories.
In March 2015, while running for his fourth term as prime minister, Netanyahu reiterated his opposition to the creation of a Palestinian state, promising that he would never allow it to happen as long as he’s in office. Although he attempted to backtrack on his statement following international condemnation, it is entirely consistent with Netanyahu’s actions and policies over the past two and a half decades. The same month, Netanyahu’s Likud party issued an election pamphlet declaring that the 2009 speech in which he first stated that he supported a Palestinian state (with numerous conditions) was “null and void,” explaining:
The Prime Minister announced that the Bar-Ilan [University] speech is null and void… Netanyahu's entire political biography is a fight against the creation of a Palestinian state.
After initially backtracking following media attention, the campaign issued a second statement declaring: “there will be no concessions or withdrawals [from the occupied territories]; they are simply irrelevant."
In December 2014, the Associated Press reported that official Israeli statistics revealed the number of Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank grew 23% between 2009, when Netanyahu returned to power for his second term, and 2013, more than double the rate of population growth within Israel’s internationally-recognized pre-1967 borders, which stood at 9.6%.
In June 2009, under international pressure to accept the two-state solution, Netanyahu announced for the first time support for the creation of a Palestinian state. He added numerous caveats, however, rendering the proposed state shorn of any real sovereignty or independence. As current Deputy Foreign Minister Tzipi Hotovely from Netanyahu’s Likud party explained in 2012, Netanyahu’s declaration was merely a "tactical speech for the rest of the world,” adding, “We are opposed to a Palestinian state."
Since returning to power in 2009, Netanyahu has continued to expand settlements on occupied Palestinian land and has led Israel further and further to the right, with each of his three consecutive coalition governments more extreme than the last. His current government includes hardline settlers and messianic religious fundamentalists in senior ministerial posts, individuals who were considered extremists on the margins of Israeli politics a decade ago.
In 2005, then-Finance Minister Netanyahu resigned from Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s government in protest of Sharon’s plan to withdraw approximately 8,000 settlers from Gaza (which remains under Israeli occupation) and four small settlements in the West Bank.
In 2001, following his first term in office, Netanyahu was caught on video bragging to a group of settlers that he had sabotaged Oslo, stating: "I de facto put an end to the Oslo Accords.” He also claimed that he knew how to manipulate Americans and avoid pressure to stop settlement construction, stating: "I know what America is… America is a thing you can move very easily, move it in the right direction. They won't get in [the] way.”
In 1996, Netanyahu was elected prime minister for the first time following the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin by a right-wing Jewish extremist opposed to Oslo. While in opposition, Netanyahu campaigned against negotiations with the Palestinians, speaking at rallies where right-wing extremists accused Rabin and other supporters of Oslo of being traitors and Nazis. Following Rabin’s assassination, many Israelis, including Rabin’s widow and son, placed partial blame on Netanyahu for his role in fueling virulent incitement against Rabin and Oslo.
During his first term in office (1996-99), Netanyahu dragged out the negotiations begun under Oslo by his predecessors while delaying or refusing to implement previously signed agreements, including redeployments of Israeli soldiers, antagonizing Palestinian negotiators as well as President Bill Clinton. Following his first meeting with Netanyahu in 1996, Clinton exclaimed to aides: “Who the f--k does he think he is? Who's the f---ing superpower here?" At the same time, Netanyahu rapidly expanded Jewish settlements on occupied Palestinian land that was supposed to form a Palestinian state, as Rabin did before him. By the time Netanyahu left office in 1999, Israel’s occupation was more deeply entrenched than ever and the Oslo process teetering on collapse.

Tags: Fact Sheets , Peace Talks , Oslo , Netanyahu , Likud

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mickeyrat · December 2023

op-ed gift article

The Incitement in Israel That Killed Yitzhak Rabin https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/04/opinion/incitement-movie.html?unlocked_article_code=1.C00.Osif.zapGrEClbjft&smid=nytcore-android-share

hands with Yasir Arafat, whom he cordially loathed. He spoke with a solemnity somehow accentuated by his awkwardness, in contrast to the slick sloganeering of his nemesis, Benjamin Netanyahu. Rabin looked at the sweep of history, not the latest polls. Rabin knew that there is no escaping the moral corrosion involved in subjugating another people. With Israelis and Palestinians claiming the same land, only compromise between them could bring security in the end.

I was reminded of all this watching “Incitement,” the fine new Israeli movie directed by Yaron Zilberman that takes a fresh look at the assassination, and particularly at the world of Messianic zealotry that produced and sustained and motivated Amir, a 25-year-old law student at Bar-Ilan University. He was no loner. He emerged from the significant section of Israeli society that viewed Rabin as a traitor.

continues.....

mickeyrat · December 2023

16 yrs of bibi as pm. can you declaratively say Israel is safer under his watch?

no way to know, but I argue no. dont believe me? 1400 folks want to have a word....

static111 · December 2023

I don't get equating one terrorist act as full justification to kill tens of thousands of innocents in order to get a few terrorists not to mention the apartheid conditions that have existed as long as I have been alive. Then going back to ancient history and myth as justification for who the land belongs to. It's like people don't remember that colonizer governments allowed people to be forcibly pushed off their land and driven from their homes, in 1948, to establish a state for people who were abused *checks notes* by Europeans. Weird that this land wasn't carved out of oh say Germany. Instead the Palestinians and Arab world have had to pay for the destabilization.

I'm all for a two state solution, I don't think it is a reality with the parties currently in control. Neither are operating in good faith nor have been for quite a while. How ever barbarous the October attack was, nothing compares to the barbarism of an unchecked fully modern war machine, operating under a media blackout.

static111 · December 2023

static111 said:

I don't get equating one terrorist act as full justification to kill tens of thousands of innocents in order to get a few terrorists not to mention the apartheid conditions that have existed as long as I have been alive. Then going back to ancient history and myth as justification for who the land belongs to. It's like people don't remember that colonizer governments allowed people to be forcibly pushed off their land and driven from their homes, in 1948, to establish a state for people who were abused *checks notes* by Europeans. Weird that this land wasn't carved out of oh say Germany. Instead the Palestinians and Arab world have had to pay for the destabilization.

I'm all for a two state solution, I don't think it is a reality with the parties currently in control. Neither are operating in good faith nor have been for quite a while. How ever barbarous the October attack was, nothing compares to the barbarism of an unchecked fully modern war machine, operating under a media blackout.

Probably the same delusional thinking that allowed so many to go along with and support the war on terror in Iraq and Afghanistan, and when those inevitably come back to haunt us I'm sure the repercussions will once again not be our fault.

mickeyrat · December 2023

https://apnews.com/article/congress-israel-gaza-aid-sanders-a760c44986e5381b146d370cada95b52 Biden's allies in Senate demand that Israel limit civilian deaths in Gaza as Congress debates US aid

Biden's allies in Senate demand that Israel limit civilian deaths in Gaza as Congress debates US aid

By ELLEN KNICKMEYER AND LISA MASCARO

2 hours ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — As a cease-fire ticked down last week and Israel prepared to resume its round-the-clock airstrikes, Sen. Bernie Sanders and a robust group of Democratic senators had a message for their president: They were done “asking nicely” for Israel to do more to reduce civilian casualties in Gaza.

Lawmakers warned President Joe Biden’s national security team that planned U.S. aid to Israel must be met with assurances of concrete steps from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s hard-right government.

“The truth is that if asking nicely worked, we wouldn’t be in the position we are today,” Sanders said in a floor speech. It was time for the United States to use its “substantial leverage” with its ally, the Vermont senator said.

“And we all know what that leverage is,” he said, adding, “the blank-check approach must end.”

With Biden’s request for a nearly $106 billion aid package for Ukraine, Israel and other national security needs hanging in the balance, the senators’ tougher line on Israel has gotten the White House’s attention, and that of Israel.

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Lawmakers of both major political parties for decades have embraced the U.S. role as Israel’s top protector, and it's all but inconceivable that they would vote down the wartime aid. The Democratic lawmakers are adamant that’s not their intent, as strong supporters of Israel’s right of self-defense against Hamas. But just the fact that Democratic lawmakers are making that link signals the fractures in Congress amid the daily scenes of suffering among besieged Palestinian civilians.

Sanders and the Democratic senators involved say they are firm in their stand that Israel's military must adopt substantive measures to lessen civilian deaths in Gaza as part of receiving the supplemental's $14.3 billion in U.S. aid for Israel's war.

The warning from friendly Democrats is a complication for the White House as it faces what had already been a challenging task of getting the supplemental aid bill through Congress. Some Republicans are balking at the part of the bill that provides funding for Ukraine's war against Russia, and the funding for Israel was supposed to be the easy part.

The demand is a warning of more trouble ahead for an Israeli government that's often at odds with the U.S. in its treatment of Palestinians.

“There’s a big difference between asking and getting a commitment" from Netanyahu's government on a plan to reduce civilian casualties and improve living conditions in Gaza, Maryland Democratic Sen. Chris Van Hollen told The Associated Press. Van Hollen has been one of the key senators huddling with administration officials on the demands.

“So our goal is to achieve results," Van Hollen said. “And not just set expectations."

Following the senators' warning, the Biden administration has upped its own demands to Israel since late last week, insisting publicly for the first time that Israeli leaders not just hear out U.S. demands to ease civilian suffering in Gaza, but agree to them.

Over the weekend, as an end to the cease-fire brought the return of Israeli bombardment and Hamas rocket strikes, the Israeli military said it had begun using one measure directed by the Biden administration: an online map of Gaza neighborhoods to tell civilians which crowded streets, neighborhoods and communities to evacuate before an Israeli attack.

Heavy bombardment followed the evacuation orders, and Palestinians in the Gaza Strip said they were running out of places to go in the sealed-off territory. Many of its 2.3 million people are crammed into the south after Israel ordered civilians to leave the north in the early days of the war, which was sparked by the Oct. 7 Hamas-led attack in Israel that killed about 1,200 people, mostly civilians.

The health ministry in Hamas-run Gaza says more than 15,500 Palestinians have been killed, with 70% of them women and children.

On social media, Sanders repeated his call for an end to blank checks for Israel as Israeli forces returned to heavy bombing after the cease-fire.

While Secretary of State Antony Blinken said more measures were coming besides the online map, it wasn't clear if any would lessen civilian deaths or satisfy administration and lawmaker demands.

Israel is the top recipient of U.S. military aid over time.

Trying to attach strings to U.S. aid to Israel isn't unheard of, for Congress or for U.S. presidents. Ronald Reagan, for instance, repeatedly suspended or threatened suspensions of fighter jet deliveries to Israel over its military incursions in the region in the 1980s. This time, though, is notable since it is being discussed in a Democratic-controlled Senate.

National security adviser Jake Sullivan and other White House officials huddled with the Senate Democrats over the warning. Israeli diplomats and military officials also rushed to stem such a move, hosting lawmakers for repeated viewings of video of Hamas atrocities on Oct. 7 to make the case for the U.S. military aid.

Netanyahu’s coalition has weathered calls in the past from advocacy groups and individual lawmakers. Objections concerned Palestinian civilian deaths in past Israeli wars against Hamas.

Biden from the start adopted what came to be called his “bear-hug” approach to the Israeli leader — embracing him publicly, and saving any U.S. appeals for changed behavior for private discussions. But when Biden told reporters on Nov. 24 he thought conditioning military aid to Israel was a “worthwhile thought,” it helped the proposal gain traction among administration-friendly Democratic senators.

Sanders and the Democrats haven't specified what form the conditions could take, as talks continue. Several Democratic senators contend no additional law is necessary. They say existing U.S. law already mandates that countries receiving U.S. military aid heed human rights concerns.

Some Senate Democrats express dislike of the use of the term conditions and depict their action as more of a determination to influence an outcome.

No matter what, "we’re going to do a robust aid package for Israel," said Sen. Tim Kaine, a Virginia Democrat. “But it’s got to be consistent with humanitarian aid, and also efforts to reduce the suffering of Gazans who aren’t part of Hamas.”

___

Associated Press writer Stephen Groves contributed.

Lerxst1992 · December 2023

Lerxst1992 · December 2023

static111 said:

I don't get equating one terrorist act as full justification to kill tens of thousands of innocents in order to get a few terrorists not to mention the apartheid conditions that have existed as long as I have been alive. Then going back to ancient history and myth as justification for who the land belongs to. It's like people don't remember that colonizer governments allowed people to be forcibly pushed off their land and driven from their homes, in 1948, to establish a state for people who were abused *checks notes* by Europeans. Weird that this land wasn't carved out of oh say Germany. Instead the Palestinians and Arab world have had to pay for the destabilization.

I'm all for a two state solution, I don't think it is a reality with the parties currently in control. Neither are operating in good faith nor have been for quite a while. How ever barbarous the October attack was, nothing compares to the barbarism of an unchecked fully modern war machine, operating under a media blackout.

War is Hell. But to believe in the full faith of the Palestinian cause, one must ignore the results of six previous wars, two signed peace deals with Palestinian leadership and 4000 years of history in that land.

Despite all that, Israel is willing to negotiate. Point to another place on this planet where people are willing to overlook all of that and say Israel is 100% wrong and Israel has zero claims this land. Make no mistake about this. This will divide the democratic party and bring back the liberals favorite President. Supporting Iranian causes has clear and distinct consequences. You can ask Reverend Sharpton if you don’t believe me

edit, you and others continue to use the word apartheid, and that’s in bad faith. The territories in the West Bank that are referred to areas A B C are the direct result of two deals signed off by the Palestinian leadership. That was supposed to be a steppingstone to future deals, for which Palestine has refused to continue negotiations after Hamas took over

Lerxst1992 · December 2023

Static , using the word myth is another example of bad faith debating. There is an enormous amount of archaeological evidence supporting these claims.

static111 · December 2023

Lerxst1992 said:

Static , using the word myth is another example of bad faith debating. There is an enormous amount of archaeological evidence supporting these claims.

Using "archaeological evidence" interpreted through the lens of and backed by the idea of Judeo-Christian superiority to claim land that was not controlled by Israelis for 1000+ years is bad faith justification for occupation and displacement. Palestine was chosen by Europeans and European Hebrews as the location to establish a Jewish state because of the Bible. Since Israel was established Arab history in the region has been replaced, rewrote and erased. Prior to 1948 Arab peoples controlled and lived on the land that is now known as Israel for 100s of years. After 1948 they were violently displaced and land that they actually had cultural and historical ties that they did not have to go back to ancient times to prove was taken from them. I can understand the animosity. Forgetting that Israel as we know it didn't exist before 1948 and that there was no real Jewish occupation and ownership of the land for 1000 years is disingenuous.

None of this justifies the Oct 7 attack. However, that attack does not justify displacing and killing as many or more Palestinian civilians, if reports are to be believed, as were killed when Israel first forced the Palestinians off their land in the event known as the Nakba 1948.

I think everyone recognizes that Palestinian leadership does not have clean hands. The problem seems to be that almost any violent action Israel has ever undertaken is somehow seen as justified. It's two sets of rules and two different sets of standards being used to judge the two players.

To me saying war is hell and that none of this would have happened if the oct 7 attack had not occurred is lazy and one sided.

Here we are 75 years later. We can't go back 1000 years or even 78 years. There needs to be a new way of looking at this and new ways to try to solve the problem. If not well, expect more and worse repeats with both sides acting as if they have no-fault.

static111 · December 2023

Lerxst1992 said:

static111 said:

I don't get equating one terrorist act as full justification to kill tens of thousands of innocents in order to get a few terrorists not to mention the apartheid conditions that have existed as long as I have been alive. Then going back to ancient history and myth as justification for who the land belongs to. It's like people don't remember that colonizer governments allowed people to be forcibly pushed off their land and driven from their homes, in 1948, to establish a state for people who were abused *checks notes* by Europeans. Weird that this land wasn't carved out of oh say Germany. Instead the Palestinians and Arab world have had to pay for the destabilization.

I'm all for a two state solution, I don't think it is a reality with the parties currently in control. Neither are operating in good faith nor have been for quite a while. How ever barbarous the October attack was, nothing compares to the barbarism of an unchecked fully modern war machine, operating under a media blackout.

War is Hell. But to believe in the full faith of the Palestinian cause, one must ignore the results of six previous wars, two signed peace deals with Palestinian leadership and 4000 years of history in that land.

Despite all that, Israel is willing to negotiate. Point to another place on this planet where people are willing to overlook all of that and say Israel is 100% wrong and Israel has zero claims this land. Make no mistake about this. This will divide the democratic party and bring back the liberals favorite President. Supporting Iranian causes has clear and distinct consequences. You can ask Reverend Sharpton if you don’t believe me

edit, you and others continue to use the word apartheid, and that’s in bad faith. The territories in the West Bank that are referred to areas A B C are the direct result of two deals signed off by the Palestinian leadership. That was supposed to be a steppingstone to future deals, for which Palestine has refused to continue negotiations after Hamas took over

People are going to vote for Trump instead of Biden who would have otherwise voted for Biden if not for some people thinking that Israel is not 100% right? That makes zero sense. there is no other option. People will vote for Trump or Biden regardless of views on Israel. If Trump becomes president it will have little to nothing to do with Israel. America has been creating the climate for Trump to exist for years before Oct 7. Nice try with the fear mongering though.

Halifax2TheMax · December 2023

static111 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Static , using the word myth is another example of bad faith debating. There is an enormous amount of archaeological evidence supporting these claims.

Using "archaeological evidence" interpreted through the lens of and backed by the idea of Judeo-Christian superiority to claim land that was not controlled by Israelis for 1000+ years is bad faith justification for occupation and displacement. Palestine was chosen by Europeans and European Hebrews as the location to establish a Jewish state because of the Bible. Since Israel was established Arab history in the region has been replaced, rewrote and erased. Prior to 1948 Arab peoples controlled and lived on the land that is now known as Israel for 100s of years. After 1948 they were violently displaced and land that they actually had cultural and historical ties that they did not have to go back to ancient times to prove was taken from them. I can understand the animosity. Forgetting that Israel as we know it didn't exist before 1948 and that there was no real Jewish occupation and ownership of the land for 1000 years is disingenuous.

None of this justifies the Oct 7 attack. However, that attack does not justify displacing and killing as many or more Palestinian civilians, if reports are to be believed, as were killed when Israel first forced the Palestinians off their land in the event known as the Nakba 1948.

I think everyone recognizes that Palestinian leadership does not have clean hands. The problem seems to be that almost any violent action Israel has ever undertaken is somehow seen as justified. It's two sets of rules and two different sets of standards being used to judge the two players.

To me saying war is hell and that none of this would have happened if the oct 7 attack had not occurred is lazy and one sided.

Here we are 75 years later. We can't go back 1000 years or even 78 years. There needs to be a new way of looking at this and new ways to try to solve the problem. If not well, expect more and worse repeats with both sides acting as if they have no-fault.

Hence, wash, rinse, repeat.

But hey, only killing two civilians for every Hamas terrorist is A-OK.

Conflating the PA, Hamas, Gazans and Palestinians as one entity is disingenuous, particularly given Bibi and the Israeli far right’s machinations.

static111 · December 2023

Halifax2TheMax said:

static111 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Static , using the word myth is another example of bad faith debating. There is an enormous amount of archaeological evidence supporting these claims.

Using "archaeological evidence" interpreted through the lens of and backed by the idea of Judeo-Christian superiority to claim land that was not controlled by Israelis for 1000+ years is bad faith justification for occupation and displacement. Palestine was chosen by Europeans and European Hebrews as the location to establish a Jewish state because of the Bible. Since Israel was established Arab history in the region has been replaced, rewrote and erased. Prior to 1948 Arab peoples controlled and lived on the land that is now known as Israel for 100s of years. After 1948 they were violently displaced and land that they actually had cultural and historical ties that they did not have to go back to ancient times to prove was taken from them. I can understand the animosity. Forgetting that Israel as we know it didn't exist before 1948 and that there was no real Jewish occupation and ownership of the land for 1000 years is disingenuous.

None of this justifies the Oct 7 attack. However, that attack does not justify displacing and killing as many or more Palestinian civilians, if reports are to be believed, as were killed when Israel first forced the Palestinians off their land in the event known as the Nakba 1948.

I think everyone recognizes that Palestinian leadership does not have clean hands. The problem seems to be that almost any violent action Israel has ever undertaken is somehow seen as justified. It's two sets of rules and two different sets of standards being used to judge the two players.

To me saying war is hell and that none of this would have happened if the oct 7 attack had not occurred is lazy and one sided.

Here we are 75 years later. We can't go back 1000 years or even 78 years. There needs to be a new way of looking at this and new ways to try to solve the problem. If not well, expect more and worse repeats with both sides acting as if they have no-fault.

Hence, wash, rinse, repeat.

But hey, only killing two civilians for every Hamas terrorist is A-OK.

Conflating the PA, Hamas, Gazans and Palestinians as one entity is disingenuous, particularly given Bibi and the Israeli far right’s machinations.

Don't forget any sympathy for Palestinian civilians, or questioning of BIBI and the IDF is supporting Iranian causes?

Halifax2TheMax · December 2023

static111 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

static111 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Static , using the word myth is another example of bad faith debating. There is an enormous amount of archaeological evidence supporting these claims.

Using "archaeological evidence" interpreted through the lens of and backed by the idea of Judeo-Christian superiority to claim land that was not controlled by Israelis for 1000+ years is bad faith justification for occupation and displacement. Palestine was chosen by Europeans and European Hebrews as the location to establish a Jewish state because of the Bible. Since Israel was established Arab history in the region has been replaced, rewrote and erased. Prior to 1948 Arab peoples controlled and lived on the land that is now known as Israel for 100s of years. After 1948 they were violently displaced and land that they actually had cultural and historical ties that they did not have to go back to ancient times to prove was taken from them. I can understand the animosity. Forgetting that Israel as we know it didn't exist before 1948 and that there was no real Jewish occupation and ownership of the land for 1000 years is disingenuous.

None of this justifies the Oct 7 attack. However, that attack does not justify displacing and killing as many or more Palestinian civilians, if reports are to be believed, as were killed when Israel first forced the Palestinians off their land in the event known as the Nakba 1948.

I think everyone recognizes that Palestinian leadership does not have clean hands. The problem seems to be that almost any violent action Israel has ever undertaken is somehow seen as justified. It's two sets of rules and two different sets of standards being used to judge the two players.

To me saying war is hell and that none of this would have happened if the oct 7 attack had not occurred is lazy and one sided.

Here we are 75 years later. We can't go back 1000 years or even 78 years. There needs to be a new way of looking at this and new ways to try to solve the problem. If not well, expect more and worse repeats with both sides acting as if they have no-fault.

Hence, wash, rinse, repeat.

But hey, only killing two civilians for every Hamas terrorist is A-OK.

Conflating the PA, Hamas, Gazans and Palestinians as one entity is disingenuous, particularly given Bibi and the Israeli far right’s machinations.

Don't forget any sympathy for Palestinian civilians, or questioning of BIBI and the IDF is supporting Iranian causes?

Or that advocating for a two state solution with full, equal rights for Palestinians is anti-Semitic. Speaking of equal rights, something a particular poster keeps referring to as existing in the West Bank but is very far from the truth. But you know, Israel is righteous.

mickeyrat · December 2023

gift article....

https://wapo.st/41amYIV

Israel has vowed to destroy Hamas. Yet the group remains largely intact.
By Loveday Morris
December 05, 2023 at 10:39 ET
TEL AVIV — As Israel opens a new southern front in its war in Gaza, it is still far from achieving its stated military objective: the total destruction of the Hamas militant group that rules the strip and spearheaded the Oct. 7 attack on southern Israel.
At least 5,000 Hamas militants have been killed, according to three Israeli security officials, leaving the majority of its estimated 30,000-strong military wing intact.
The Israeli officials spoke to The Washington Post on the condition of anonymity to discuss ongoing military operations and details that have not been made public.
[Biden administration presses Israel for restraint in south Gaza]
Operations in the north are far from complete. Though much of Gaza City has been leveled by airstrikes, ground forces have yet to enter some of Hamas’s key strongholds there.
“This is going to be a long haul,” said Lt. Col. Richard Hecht, a spokesman for the Israeli military. “We need the time,” he added, acknowledging the diplomatic clock was ticking.
International pressure to minimize civilians deaths is likely to influence the pace of operations in the south, as Israel tries to maintain the support of the United States, its key backer.
The cost has already been devastating, with nearly 16,000 Palestinians killed, including more than 5,000 children, according to Gaza’s Ministry of Health.
[Gaza becomes ‘a graveyard for children’ as Israel intensifies airstrikes]
“I think we have reached a moment when the Israeli authorities will have to define more clearly what their final objective is,” French President Emmanuel Macron said Monday. “The total destruction of Hamas? Does anybody think that’s possible? If it’s that, the war will last 10 years.”

continues.....

Halifax2TheMax · December 2023

What a democracy. Sounds more like apartheid. Can someone explain?

Palestinians in the West Bank are tried in Israeli military courts, where conviction rates approach 100 percent, according to the United Nations. The majority of those freed last week had never been convicted of a crime; many had never had a day in court. Israel’s practice of administrative detention allows Palestinian detainees to be held for months or years without charge or trial.

Use of administrative detention, long criticized by rights groups, “dramatically increased” this year, according to Amnesty International, especially after Oct. 7.

Young Palestinian prisoners describe harsh treatment in Israeli jails - The Washington Post

josevolution · December 2023

Halifax2TheMax said:

What a democracy. Sounds more like apartheid. Can someone explain?

Palestinians in the West Bank are tried in Israeli military courts, where conviction rates approach 100 percent, according to the United Nations. The majority of those freed last week had never been convicted of a crime; many had never had a day in court. Israel’s practice of administrative detention allows Palestinian detainees to be held for months or years without charge or trial.
Use of administrative detention, long criticized by rights groups, “dramatically increased” this year, according to Amnesty International, especially after Oct. 7.

Young Palestinian prisoners describe harsh treatment in Israeli jails - The Washington Post

There’s no fixing the region it will never happen! It’s just going to keep on churning death.